Phil won 5 titles after MJ

[Hey Yo]

How many has Spoelstra, Lue and Vogel won without LeBron?





:milton

[TheMan]

How many has Spoelstra, Lue and Vogel won without LeBron?





:milton
Those guys didn't have the luxury of after coaching the GOAT, coaching two top 10 GOATs in their prime.

[JohnMax]

He also coached Shaq and Gasol. Two players arguably better than Jordan.

[Spurs m8]

MJ taught Phil how to win

Cool

[Spurs m8]

He also coached Shaq and Gasol. Two players arguably better than Jordan.

Yes, Gasol is better than Jordan hahanhaha

I know you were dumb enough to start buying LeCuck hype, but now you've gone full retard...which makes sense now

[Bawkish]

How many titles Phil won without 2 ATGs in his roster??

[Axe]

How many titles Phil won without 2 ATGs in his roster??
And how many did they win without his tutelage? :confusedshrug:

[Bawkish]

And how many did they win without his tutelage? :confusedshrug:

Catch 22

[Baller789]

Another gaslighting dumb thread.

Smh.

Well done guys.

[TheGoatest]

How many has Spoelstra, Lue and Vogel won without LeBron?





:milton

This is actually pretty crazy statistically:

The ONE coach that jordon won with won FIVE rings without him.
Meanwhile, the THREE coaches LeBron won with won ZERO rings without him between them.
That says it all. You'd think LeBron's coaches would've at least squeezed out one ring, out of sheer randomness. But nothing so far.

[Hey Yo]

Another gaslighting dumb thread.

Smh.

Well done guys.

Shook by the facts

[Real Men Wear Green]

Shook by the facts
If you don't know why this topic is stupid then you have a mental disability.

[theman93]

How many did he lose?

[3ba11]

.
2000 Playoffs Clutch PPG (last 5 within 5)


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-28-2022/5s72XY.gif

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs



Phil and the triangle never won without MJ or his clone (Kobe)

[SouBeachTalents]

.
2000 Playoffs Clutch PPG (last 5 within 5)


https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-28-2022/5s72XY.gif


Phil and the triangle never won without MJ or his clone (Kobe)
They won with his clone averaging 16 ppg on 41%TS in the Finals.

[3ba11]

They won with his clone averaging 16 ppg on 41%TS in the Finals.


^^^ half of the 15 was in the clutch tho.... :pimp:


2000 Finals Clutch-time PPG

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-01-2022/GaVtVG.gif

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4


The triangle was garbage in the clutch, so it needed a guy that could iso his man quickly without dribbling and within the offense - Jordan invented the footwork needed to do this and average 30 in the offense as a perimeter player - Kobe copied it, along with Dirk, Kawhi and other champions..

It's a goat legacy that his midrange game is copied and emulated - he was the goat 2-point jumpshooter - the goat must have all-time jumpshooting skill, so MJ checks this box.

Btw, in addition to winning the 00's Finals, Kobe got the Lakers TO the finals by demolishing Pippen in the WCF.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Saint Phil

[SouBeachTalents]

^^^ half of the 15 was in the clutch tho.... :pimp:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-01-2022/GaVtVG.gif


The triangle was garbage in the clutch, so it needed a guy that could iso his man quickly without dribbling and within the offense - Jordan invented the footwork needed to do this and average 30 in the offense from as a perimeter player - Kobe copied it, along with Dirk, Kawhi and other champions..

It's a goat legacy that his midrange game is copied and emulated - he was the goat 2-point jumpshooter - the goat must have all-time jumpshooting skill, so MJ checks this box.

Btw, in addition to winning the 00's Finals, Kobe got the Lakers TO the finals by demolishing Pippen in the WCF.
https://pm1.narvii.com/6904/c95494888298cae5fbf064f414f6c63f05986450r1-706-1255v2_hq.jpg

https://c.tenor.com/uaKdYF8UIucAAAAC/jay-z-eww.gif

You give LeBron shit for "only" outscoring his 2nd option by 5-6 ppg in the Finals, yet you praise the following :lol Just shows the completely different standards you hold these players too.

[Axe]

They won with his clone averaging 16 ppg on 41%TS in the Finals.
Role player numbers at best. Something that shouldn't even be bragged about. :oldlol:

[warriorfan]

The historical record shows that the triangle required goat clutch that only MJ or his clone could provide:


2000 Playoffs Clutch-time PPG (last 5 within 5)

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-28-2022/5s72XY.gif


2000 Finals Clutch-time PPG


https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-01-2022/GaVtVG.gif

Maybe you don't understand basketball, but it MATTERS that the goat clutch you see above came without ball-dominance

So bum like Luka or Lebron cannot provide it - teams cannot run the triangle or any ball movement, high assist offense, so their team's aren't good

Good data. Shows how even young Kobe was forced to close games. Shaq was great don’t get me wrong but he had issues in certainty situations and needed a closer like Kobe/Wade to win.

[3ba11]

Role player numbers at best. Something that shouldn't even be bragged about. :oldlol:


The historical record shows that the triangle required goat clutch that only MJ or his clone could provide:


2000 Playoffs Clutch-time PPG (last 5 within 5)

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-28-2022/5s72XY.gif


2000 Finals Clutch-time PPG


https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-01-2022/GaVtVG.gif


Maybe you don't understand basketball, but it MATTERS that the goat clutch you see above came without ball-dominance

So bum like Luka or Lebron cannot provide it - their teams cannot run the triangle or any ball movement, high assist offense, so their teams aren't good

[RRR3]

https://pm1.narvii.com/6904/c95494888298cae5fbf064f414f6c63f05986450r1-706-1255v2_hq.jpg

https://c.tenor.com/uaKdYF8UIucAAAAC/jay-z-eww.gif

You give LeBron shit for "only" outscoring his 2nd option by 5-6 ppg in the Finals, yet you praise the following :lol Just shows the completely different standards you hold these players too.
Well yeah he thinks LeBron is better than Kobe. That’s why he holds him to a higher standard.

[3ba11]

Good data. Shows how even young Kobe was forced to close games. Shaq was great don’t get me wrong but he had issues in certainty situations and needed a closer like Kobe/Wade to win.


I was surprised to see that Kobe scored more than half of his 15 ppg in the Finals in the clutch

[RRR3]

I was surprised to see that Kobe scored more than half of his 15 ppg in the Finals in the clutch
LeBron scored his best in the fourth quarter of the 07 finals, guess he had a great finals by this logic. Oh wait, you hold LeBron to a much higher standard than Kobe :lol

[RRR3]

LeBron scored his best in the fourth quarter of the 07 finals, guess he had a great finals by this logic. Oh wait, you hold LeBron to a much higher standard than Kobe :lol
Wow I completely stumped him with this :lol

[3ba11]

LeBron scored his best in the fourth quarter of the 07 finals, guess he had a great finals by this logic. Oh wait, you hold LeBron to a much higher standard than Kobe :lol


Lebron was garbage in the clutch of the 07' Finals, 09' ECF and more - he literally lost 3 fourth quarter leads in the 09' ECF and was dominated by Dwight in the critical Game 4 OT that swing the series
We've seen Lebron's clutch stats - they don't touch Kobe

[RRR3]

:mad:
Giving Kobe credit for a series in which he put up 15.6 PPG on 41.1 TS% and demonizing LeBron for one in which he put up 38.5 PPG on 59.1 TS% :oldlol:

[3ba11]

Giving Kobe credit for a series in which he put up 15.6 PPG on 41.1 TS% and demonizing LeBron for one in which he put up 38.5 PPG on 59.1 TS% :oldlol:


Kobe had goat clutch and Lebron wasn't clutch

It's all about clutch and Kobe averaged 8 ppg in the clutch - I think Lebron had 8 points total in a game

And Lebron can't provide clutch in the triangle because his garbage skillset lacks elite jumpshooting skill or quick iso ability, so he must dominate the ball and run a shittier offense

[Hey Yo]

I was surprised to see that Kobe scored more than half of his 15 ppg in the Finals in the clutch

I wasn't surprised he shot 12-47 in games 5 and 6 combined.

[RRR3]

*made up nonsense ignoring LeBron is factually a better clutch performer than Kobe*
I'm not interested in your ranting and raving. Simple question: who played better, LeBron in the 09 ECF or Kobe in the 2000 finals?

[SouBeachTalents]

https://pm1.narvii.com/6810/22e8ed283e77156759e34b2ac45b8402498a4506v2_hq.jpg

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7a662e44273d340f1b5b9368d7535118-pjlq

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/t_share/MTg3OTIxOTUxMjg3NjgyMDk5/275142078_1179337769476738_8953484692703643051_n.j pg

GOAT clutch

[RRR3]

https://pm1.narvii.com/6810/22e8ed283e77156759e34b2ac45b8402498a4506v2_hq.jpg

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7a662e44273d340f1b5b9368d7535118-pjlq

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/t_share/MTg3OTIxOTUxMjg3NjgyMDk5/275142078_1179337769476738_8953484692703643051_n.j pg

GOAT clutch
Ah but you see he had a couple good quarters in a series he played like Michael Carter-Williams in (and in which his teammate put up arguably the GOAT finals).

[Axe]

The historical record shows that the triangle required goat clutch that only MJ or his clone could provide:


2000 Playoffs Clutch-time PPG (last 5 within 5)

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-28-2022/5s72XY.gif


2000 Finals Clutch-time PPG


https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-01-2022/GaVtVG.gif


Maybe you don't understand basketball, but it MATTERS that the goat clutch you see above came without ball-dominance

So bum like Luka or Lebron cannot provide it - their teams cannot run the triangle or any ball movement, high assist offense, so their teams aren't good
Ballhog.

[PeroAntic]

This board is a playground for retarded children. And 99 percent of them are Lebron stans.

[3ba11]

https://pm1.narvii.com/6810/22e8ed283e77156759e34b2ac45b8402498a4506v2_hq.jpg

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-7a662e44273d340f1b5b9368d7535118-pjlq

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/t_share/MTg3OTIxOTUxMjg3NjgyMDk5/275142078_1179337769476738_8953484692703643051_n.j pg

GOAT clutch


Who was facing maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load)?

Unlike Lebron, Kobe didn't have any equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so he had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals)

Defeating maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load in Finals) is that hardest and rarest way to win - it requires winning with secondary producers like Pau, Wiggins or Pippen that average far less than the 1st option.. Lebron didn't have to win this way because he always had all-time scorers and elite 1st options to nearly match his Finals scoring.

[RRR3]

I'm not interested in your ranting and raving. Simple question: who played better, LeBron in the 09 ECF or Kobe in the 2000 finals?
3ball?

[SouBeachTalents]

Who was facing maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load)?

Unlike Lebron, Kobe didn't have any equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so he had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals)

Defeating maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load in Finals) is that hardest and rarest way to win - it requires winning with secondary producers like Pau, Wiggins or Pippen that average far less than the 1st option.. Lebron didn't have to win this way because he always had all-time scorers and elite 1st options to nearly match his Finals scoring.
Shaq did this more times than anyone besides Jordan, and he's not even in your top 10, so this criteria is debunked by your very own ranking. If this were truly the most significant criteria to evaluate and rank players, the guy who did it 3 years in a row putting up historical Finals production would be in your top 10, bottom line.

I always find it amusing when your agendas end up contradicting each other :lol

[3ba11]

Shaq did this more times than anyone besides Jordan, and he's not even in your top 10, so this criteria is debunked by your very own ranking. If this were truly the most significant criteria to evaluate and rank players, the guy who did it 3 years in a row putting up historical Finals production would be in your top 10, bottom line.

I always find it amusing when your agendas end up contradicting each other :lol


Shaq did it 1 year in 2000 - Kobe was an equal-scoring partner in 01' and 02'

So Kobe did it more (09', 10')

[SouBeachTalents]

Shaq did it 1 year in 2000 - Kobe was an equal-scoring partner in 01' and 02'

So Kobe did it more (09', 10')
Reread your post retard. "Carrying scoring load in the Finals". Which Shaq did. If it's based on the entire playoffs, LeBron outscored his 2nd option by 10 ppg in 2013.

You've now trapped yourself between a rock and a hard place. You either have to stick with the "Finals scoring load" criteria being most the important while you simultaneously exclude the guy who did it more times than anyone besides Jordan from your top 10, or use the entire playoffs where LeBron now meets your criteria. Good luck trying to squirm your way outta this one :lol

[3ba11]

Reread your post retard. "Carrying scoring load in the Finals". Which Shaq did. If it's based on the entire playoffs, LeBron outscored his 2nd option by 10 ppg in 2013.

You've now trapped yourself between a rock and a hard place. You either have to stick with the "Finals scoring load" criteria being most the important while you simultaneously exclude the guy who did it more times than anyone besides Jordan from your top 10, or use the entire playoffs where LeBron now meets your criteria. Good luck trying to squirm your way outta this one :lol


Shaq didn't carry the scoring load in the 01' Finals but I'll give you 02'

So he did it twice just like Kobe, while Lebron NEVER defeated maximum defensive attention in 10 Finals!!.... :confusedshrug:

Lebron lacks the elite jumpshooting skill and brand of ball needed to carry the scoring load against Finals teams.. He's too ball-dominant and inefficient at carry-job levels to beat top teams

[RRR3]

I'm not interested in your ranting and raving. Simple question: who played better, LeBron in the 09 ECF or Kobe in the 2000 finals?
Stumped :roll:

No idea how to respond to this he knows he’ll look stupid if he doesn’t say LeBron :lol

[3ba11]

Stumped :roll:

No idea how to respond to this he knows he’ll look stupid if he doesn’t say LeBron :lol


You're picking Lebron's best stats series against Kobe's worst?

Okay, so who played better against the Spurs - Lebron's 07' or Kobe in 08'?

See, anyone can play that game

[SouBeachTalents]

Shaq didn't carry the scoring load in the 01' Finals but I'll give you 02'

So he did it twice just like Kobe, while Lebron NEVER defeated maximum defensive attention in 10 Finals!!.... :confusedshrug:

Lebron lacks the elite jumpshooting skill and brand of ball needed to carry the scoring load against Finals teams.. He's too ball-dominant and inefficient at carry-job levels to beat top teams
Really, an 8.4 ppg advantage isn't carrying the scoring load now :lol Guess than means there were some series even Pippen helped carry the scoring load, including when the Bulls finally knocked off the Pistons.

[3ba11]

Really, an 8.4 ppg advantage isn't carrying the scoring load now :lol Guess than means there were some series even Pippen helped carry the scoring load, including the Bulls finally knocking off the Pistons.


We have to draw the line somewhere and 10 ppg seems obvious

So Jordan carried the scoring load in every series except 2 where he averaged 4 and 8 more

Ultimately, Jordan led both teams in every series and carried the scoring load in 99% of series, while everyone else in history had teammates match them for entire playoff runs - so there's no comparison - Jordan's dominance is one-of-a-kind and will never be seen again

[RRR3]

You're picking Lebron's best stats series against Kobe's worst?

Okay, so who played better against the Spurs - Lebron's 07' or Kobe in 08'?

See, anyone can play that game
Kobe. I can admit that cuz I’m not a ****ing liar. Now you answer my question. Who played better?

[Soundwave]

Pretty sure lots of coaches could win with Shaq + Kobe in their peak/primes.

That is the greatest duo in NBA history given that they both played their prime years (a big chunk of them) together as top 10 players considering the years Phil had them.

Like that is better than Jordan-Pippen (Kobe is way better than Pippen, while Shaq at his peak is nearly as dominant as a Jordan or LeBron), LeBron-Wade, even Curry-Durant.

He got gifted a 26 year old peak Shaq, and a 21 year old Kobe who had a massive run way to get better and better as the Lakers window went on. That really has never happened in the history of the NBA before then or since (two top 10 players on team together in that age range). Kareem was already 32 when Magic got there and beginning his decline.

Spoelstra or Vogel could win 3 titles with those two together, maybe even more. Phil was an idiot who let the stupid Shaq-Kobe feud fester out of control because he thought he was some kind of basketball genius by encouraging them to
fester animosity behind the scenes, not understanding neither had the maturity of Michael Jordan, so that fire he encouraged eventually got way out of control.

By 2004, the Lakers basically had turned against Phil and no one was listening to anything he had to say, the 2004 Finals is an example of a coach that's failed and lost his room.

Then he gets gift wrapped Gasol and some good supporting players like Odom and Artest to put around Kobe and they eek out a couple against not the greatest comp (Dwight Magic and aging Celtics trio).

Phil's a good coach, but I'm pretty sure random poster on this board who knows even a bit about basketball could coach a Shaq-Kobe Lakers team to a title with a decent assistant.

[RRR3]

Pretty sure lots of coaches could win with Shaq + Kobe in their peak/primes.

That is the greatest duo in NBA history given that they both played their prime years (a big chunk of them) together as top 10 players considering the years Phil had them.

Like that is better than Jordan-Pippen (Kobe is way better than Pippen, while Shaq at his peak is nearly as dominant as a Jordan or LeBron), LeBron-Wade, even Curry-Durant.

He got gifted a 26 year old peak Shaq, and a 21 year old Kobe who had a massive run way to get better and better as the Lakers window went on. That really has never happened in the history of the NBA before then or since (two top 10 players on team together in that age range). Kareem was already 32 when Magic got there and beginning his decline.

Spoelstra or Vogel could win 3 titles with those two together, maybe even more. Phil was an idiot who let the stupid Shaq-Kobe feud fester out of control because he thought he was some kind of basketball genius by encouraging them to
fester animosity behind the scenes, not understanding neither had the maturity of Michael Jordan, so that fire he encouraged eventually got way out of control.

By 2004, the Lakers basically had turned against Phil and no one was listening to anything he had to say, the 2004 Finals is an example of a coach that's failed and lost his room.

Then he gets gift wrapped Gasol and some good supporting players like Odom and Artest to put around Kobe and they eek out a couple against not the greatest comp (Dwight Magic and aging Celtics trio).

Phil's a good coach, but I'm pretty sure random poster on this board who knows even a bit about basketball could coach a Shaq-Kobe Lakers team to a title with a decent assistant.
Spo sure. Vogel would struggle to win with peak MJ and LeBron. He’s incredibly lucky he got a ring.

[Axe]

Pretty sure lots of coaches could win with Shaq + Kobe in their peak/primes.

That is the greatest duo in NBA history given that they both played their prime years (a big chunk of them) together as top 10 players considering the years Phil had them.

Like that is better than Jordan-Pippen (Kobe is way better than Pippen, while Shaq at his peak is nearly as dominant as a Jordan or LeBron), LeBron-Wade, even Curry-Durant.

Spoelstra or Vogel could win 3 titles with those two together, maybe even more. Phil was an idiot who let the stupid Shaq-Kobe feud fester out of control because he thought he was some kind of basketball genius by encouraging them to
fester animosity behind the scenes, not understanding neither had the maturity of Michael Jordan, so that fire he encouraged eventually got way out of control.

By 2004, the Lakers basically had turned against Phil and no one was listening to anything he had to say, the 2004 Finals is an example of a coach that's failed and lost his room.

Then he gets gift wrapped Gasol and some good supporting players like Odom and Artest to put around Kobe and they eek out a couple against not the greatest comp (Dwight Magic and aging Celtics trio).

Phil's a good coach, but I'm pretty sure random poster on this board who knows even a bit about basketball could coach a Shaq-Kobe Lakers team to a title with a decent assistant.
But it was kobe's fault to begin with anyway. Being chaotic towards authorities like coaches or veteran teammates while holding the franchise itself when he was in a breakdown. He was hard to discipline when he was younger and was actually a spoiled brat before he reached his 30s. It's one of the main reasons why the shaq-kobe era met its ultimate fate in ugly terms. :confusedshrug:

Tremendous success in a group requires great cooperation between those who are involved. Take a look at the late great bill russell and his legendary coach red auerbach. Their relationship is priceless, regardless of distractions they went through togethet before. Sure, it was a very different time bt but too bad the league doesn't see anything like that anymore.

[Full Court]

PJ was the greatest coach of all time. Did you just realize that, OP?

[2much_knowledge]

How many has Spoelstra, Lue and Vogel won without LeBron?





:milton

Creative way to blow lebron #3673637. Good job!!

[3ba11]

PJ was the greatest coach of all time. Did you just realize that, OP?


By 1991, Jordan was already an MVP/DPOY and goat candidate, while Phil was a 1st-time, nobody coach - he was gifted a champion..

Phil did the same thing in 1990 that Doug Collins would've done - lost in 7 games.. Those Bulls were already on the steepest of upward trajectory before Phil got there and REGARDLESS of whether Phil came.

And the triangle was a garbage offense that never won anything until it had the goat perimeter players it needs - only Jordan and Kobe had the skill to thoroughly dominate in that offense, especially in the clutch.

The triangle can win without a dominant big, but it never won without a goat perimeter player..

[Soundwave]

But it was kobe's fault to begin with anyway. Being chaotic towards authorities like coaches or veteran teammates while holding the franchise itself when he was in a breakdown. He was hard to discipline when he was younger and was actually a spoiled brat before he reached his 30s. It's one of the main reasons why the shaq-kobe era met its ultimate fate in ugly terms. :confusedshrug:

Tremendous success in a group requires great cooperation between those who are involved. Take a look at the late great bill russell and his legendary coach red auerbach. Their relationship is priceless, regardless of distractions they went through togethet before. Sure, it was a very different time bt but too bad the league doesn't see anything like that anymore.

Yes Kobe shares blame, so does Shaq frankly, but Phil was also stupid for not seeing this would be trouble and frankly enabling and even encouraging it for years until it completely boiled over.

Phil was spoiled by Jordan in Chicago, because Jordan would take his mental challenge shit and not let it screw around with team relationships. Jordan even kept Rodman in line for Phil to a large degree.

Phil did not understand that Shaq and Kobe did not have that level of maturity and miscalculated badly by egging them on to keep at each other's throats. He should have squashed that shit and not let it fester that long.

Because really what the **** else are you even there for? Shaq and Kobe don't need a coach to tell them how to dominate a game, that's natural ability, Phil's job is more to manage the dressing room and he didn't do a good job of that.

[Axe]

Yes Kobe shares blame, so does Shaq frankly, but Phil was also stupid for not seeing this would be trouble and frankly enabling and even encouraging it for years until it completely boiled over.

Phil was spoiled by Jordan in Chicago, because Jordan would take his mental challenge shit and not let it screw around with team relationships. Jordan even kept Rodman in line for Phil to a large degree.

Phil did not understand that Shaq and Kobe did not have that level of maturity and miscalculated badly by egging them on to keep at each other's throats. He should have squashed that shit and not let it fester that long.
He actually did. If you have read his book 'eleven rings' before, he said that those lakers team with the said duo didn't feel as cohesive as the bulls teams he coached in the late 80s and through most of the 90s. However, in the case of shaq and kobe he also admitted that he did favor the former, stating that shaq was a veteran and possessed leadership skills at the time so he would be the focal point of the triangle system in the first seasons he coached the lakers. Kobe was around in his early 20s during that time. I think what got phil also was the fact that kobe was being treated a saint by the management and fans too, as if he never had flaws at all with whatever he did on the court. That, alongside his immaturities in the past, were probably the reasons why he published 'the last season' after the 2004 finals. But that's all in the past now and it was a good thing he and phil reconnected after the 00s lakers dynasty.


Because really what the **** else are you even there for? Shaq and Kobe don't need a coach to tell them how to dominate a game, that's natural ability, Phil's job is more to manage the dressing room and he didn't do a good job of that.
Well yeah. But we got to see shaq and kobe play together before phil came to their team. And the best they could muster was up the conference finals only.

[3ba11]

By 1991, Jordan was already an MVP/DPOY and goat candidate, while Phil was a 1st-time, nobody coach - he was gifted a champion..

Phil did the same thing in 1990 that Doug Collins would've done - lost in 7 games.. Those Bulls were already on the steepest upward trajectory in the league before Phil got there and REGARDLESS of whether Phil came.

And the triangle was a garbage offense that never won anything until it had the goat perimeter players it needs - only Jordan and Kobe had the skill to thoroughly dominate in that offense, especially in the clutch.

The triangle can win without a dominant big, but it never won without a goat perimeter player..



https://media4.giphy.com/media/L4U2oUoKjwKL0RTYmy/giphy.webp?cid=6c09b95264d4df9a3b8cc654a3d364e028a 1bad85a3d94b8&rid=giphy.webp

[Soundwave]

He actually did. If you have read his book 'eleven rings' before, he said that those lakers team with the said duo didn't feel as cohesive as the bulls teams he coached in the late 80s and through most of the 90s. However, in the case of shaq and kobe he also admitted that he did favor the former, stating that shaq was a veteran and possessed leadership skills at the time so he would be the focal point of the triangle system in the first seasons he coached the lakers. Kobe was around in his early 20s during that time. I think what got phil also was the fact that kobe was being treated a saint by the management and fans too, as if he never had flaws at all with whatever he did on the court. That, alongside his immaturities in the past, were probably the reasons why he published 'the last season' after the 2004 finals. But that's all in the past now and it was a good thing he and phil reconnected after the 00s lakers dynasty.


Well yeah. But we got to see shaq and kobe play together before phil came to their team. And the best they could muster was up the conference finals only.

Lakers were always going to make a Finals, probably that year anyway ... Kobe was getting older and no longer just a liability the Jazz could exploit. And still they needed a minor miracle to get past the Trailblazers ... would've been nice if Pippen stepped up in that situation and settled the Blazers down because they should have won that game 7 (total choke job).

[Axe]

Lakers were always going to make a Finals, probably that year anyway ... Kobe was getting older and no longer just a liability the Jazz could exploit. And still they needed a minor miracle to get past the Trailblazers ... would've been nice if Pippen stepped up in that situation and settled the Blazers down because they should have won that game 7 (total choke job).
Yep, the two were a very potential duo but their personalities held them back. Kobe didn't want to be a sidekick besides shaq while the latter thinks he himself should remain as the alpha of the team even when there were signs that he's deteriorated already. Still there is the fact that they haven't won anything until the zenmaster's arrival.

[Soundwave]

Yep, the two were a very potential duo but their personalities held them back. Kobe didn't want to be a sidekick besides shaq while the latter thinks he himself should remain as the alpha of the team even when there were signs that he's deteriorated already. Still there is the fact that they haven't won anything until the zenmaster's arrival.

Phil made a massive mistake in encourage and enabling their petty little feud though.

He was living good under Michael Jordan who while could be a cutthroat competitor and no teddy bear, was fairly mature and listened to reason. Jordan went along with the triangle offence even if it took the ball out of his hands when many superstars would've rolled their eyes at that.

Jordan kept Rodman in line or at least snapped Rodman back into place when he got too wild.

Phil's mistake was not understanding Shaq and Kobe didn't have the maturity of a Jordan and by enabling their infighting, it would create a fire that would burn the whole damn thing down eventually.

That's where Jordan really could've helped the Lakers I think, Phil wanted him to join the Lakers when he signed up in 1999-2000, which MJ probably should've done. The Wizards ****ed him over, never should've gotten involved with those clowns. But I think if Jordan was in that room he would've squashed that Shaq and Kobe beef fast, and both of those guys respected him so much that they'd hold to that.

[Axe]

Phil made a massive mistake in encourage and enabling their petty little feud though.

He was living good under Michael Jordan who while could be a cutthroat competitor and no teddy bear, was fairly mature and listened to reason. Jordan went along with the triangle offence even if it took the ball out of his hands when many superstars would've rolled their eyes at that.

Jordan kept Rodman in line or at least snapped Rodman back into place when he got too wild.

Phil's mistake was not understanding Shaq and Kobe didn't have the maturity of a Jordan and by enabling their infighting, it would create a fire that would burn the whole damn thing down eventually.

That's where Jordan really could've helped the Lakers I think, Phil wanted him to join the Lakers when he signed up in 1999-2000, which MJ probably should've done. The Wizards ****ed him over, never should've gotten involved with those clowns. But I think if Jordan was in that room he would've squashed that Shaq and Kobe beef fast, and both of those guys respected him so much that they'd hold to that.
So what do you think phil could have done for them to be more successful? Three titles via a three-peat and four finals are already impressive for a 5-year run, especially when you consider that nothing like that has happened for the duo in the seasons prior. Too bad it just had to end badly in their last year together (2004).

[8Ball]

If you don't know why this topic is stupid then you have a mental disability.

You let 3ball make over 1000 LeBron threads, why do you think threads like this exist but to troll Jordan stans back?

[8Ball]

Jordan played with the greatest coach + supporting cast of the 90s.

[Soundwave]

So what do you think phil could have done for them to be more successful? Three titles via a three-peat and four finals are already impressive for a 5-year run, especially when you consider that nothing like that has happened for the duo in the seasons prior. Too bad it just had to end badly in their last year together (2004).


He should not have encouraged that feud shit, he thought he was being all "master manipulator" by letting it go and even enabling it ... bad move Phil.

That shit needed to be stomped out early, he mis-read both Shaq and Kobe's personalities badly and then the situation got completely out of his control.

Neither Shaq or Kobe have the maturity and general drama-free tact that Jordan had, big mistake on his part.

He needed to sit both of them down and unequivocally squash that nonsense even as early as 1999-2000. But instead of doing that, he did the opposite and even encouraged it to go on thinking it would some how pay dividends for the team. I don't think he was right. The Lakers were going to win multiple titles just because of how good Shaq and Kobe were, Phil's job was to keep the locker room's head on straight and he failed to do that and probably actually made the situation worse than it would have been under a more conventional coach.

[Soundwave]

Jordan played with the greatest coach + supporting cast of the 90s.

Think you have the chicken/egg thing backwards there.

If you put Jordan on any 90s roster that had a reasonably decent no.2 option on it, magically that team then is suddenly the best coached + best supporting cast of the 90s that wins over and over again.

Put Jordan on like the ... Philadelphia 76ers.

They win 6 titles too with Jordan and Barkley and whoever random **** is their coach is suddenly a genius.

[Axe]

He should not have encouraged that feud shit, he thought he was being all "master manipulator" by letting it go and even enabling it ... bad move Phil.

That shit needed to be stomped out early, he mis-read both Shaq and Kobe's personalities badly and then the situation got completely out of his control.

Neither Shaq or Kobe have the maturity and general drama-free tact that Jordan had, big mistake on his part.

He needed to sit both of them down and unequivocally squash that nonsense even as early as 1999-2000. But instead of doing that, he did the opposite and even encouraged it to go on thinking it would some how pay dividends for the team. I don't think he was right. The Lakers were going to win multiple titles just because of how good Shaq and Kobe were, Phil's job was to keep the locker room's head on straight and he failed to do that and probably actually made the situation worse than it would have been under a more conventional coach.
Lol but we already know about the feud thing. It doesn't change the fact that the duo had their most successful seasons when he was the mastermind of their team. Repeating the same lines won't change it anyway. Besides if what you have said is really serious, then they could have at least sniffed a finals run or a title before he arrived to coach them in la. Kobe, in particular, even managed to make three more finals without shaq. Winning two of them.

[8Ball]

Think you have the chicken/egg thing backwards there.

If you put Jordan on any 90s roster that had a reasonably decent no.2 option on it, magically that team then is suddenly the best coached + best supporting cast of the 90s that wins over and over again.

Put Jordan on like the ... Philadelphia 76ers.

They win 6 titles too with Jordan and Barkley and whoever random **** is their coach is suddenly a genius.

Which other team in the 90s impresses you besides the Bulls? You can't name me another team.

[Soundwave]

Which other team in the 90s impresses you besides the Bulls? You can't name me another team.

90s Suns, Blazers (early 90s), Sonics, Orlando Magic, Rockets were all good teams. Knicks too. Pistons were still good in 1991. Charlotte Hornets had a stretch where they were solid too but because Zo/LJ couldn't get along it blew up.

Even teams that get forgotten ... the 90s Cavs were a pretty good squad ... they just got killed by Jordan all the time.

[theman93]

Which other team in the 90s impresses you besides the Bulls? You can't name me another team.

Jazz, Rockets, Blazers and Knicks just off the top of my head.

[theman93]

90s Suns, Blazers (early 90s), Sonics, Orlando Magic, Rockets were all good teams. Knicks too. Pistons were still good in 1991. Charlotte Hornets had a stretch where they were solid too but because Zo/LJ couldn't get along it blew up.

Even teams that get forgotten ... the 90s Cavs were a pretty good squad ... they just got killed by Jordan all the time.

The Blazers were eliminated by Isaiah, then Magic, and then Jordan in the Finals/Conference Finals three years in a row from 1990-92. They were a great squad that just ran in to all-timers.

[8Ball]

90s Suns, Blazers (early 90s), Sonics, Orlando Magic, Rockets were all good teams. Knicks too. Pistons were still good in 1991. Charlotte Hornets had a stretch where they were solid too but because Zo/LJ couldn't get along it blew up.

Even teams that get forgotten ... the 90s Cavs were a pretty good squad ... they just got killed by Jordan all the time.

Suns - 1 finals run
Blazers - 1 finals run
Sonics - 1 finals run
Orlando - 1 finals run
Rockets - 2 finals run and Jordan was retired / lost in those years.
Knicks - what? Are they even better than pre-Kawhi Raptors?
Pistons are 3-1 vs Jordan.


Meanwhile:
Spurs - 6 finals runs - Consistently won 50 games for like 15 something years.
Golden State - 6 finals in 7 years - Most stacked modern team of all time.

Even the 2012 OKC team is probably better than all Jordan's finals opponents.

[Soundwave]

Suns - 1 finals run
Blazers - 1 finals run
Sonics - 1 finals run
Orlando - 1 finals run
Rockets - 2 finals run and Jordan was retired / lost in those years.
Knicks - what? Are they even better than pre-Kawhi Raptors?
Pistons are 3-1 vs Jordan.


Meanwhile:
Spurs - 6 finals runs - Consistently won 50 games for like 15 something years.
Golden State - 6 finals in 7 years - Most stacked modern team of all time.

There was just more parity between non-Jordan teams back then, doesn't really mean the league was bad.

Also I completely forgot to list the Jazz, but that team was more than legit, they beat the Shaq Kobe Lakers multiple times.

OKC probably could have been a dynasty if they had stayed together but you can say the same thing about the 90s Orlando Magic.

[theman93]

There was just more parity between non-Jordan teams back then, doesn't really mean the league was bad.

Also I completely forgot to list the Jazz, but that team was more than legit, they beat the Shaq Kobe Lakers multiple times.

OKC probably could have been a dynasty if they had stayed together but you can say the same thing about the 90s Orlando Magic.

Home boy is so clueless about the 90's that he doesn't even know the Blazers had 2 Finals runs :roll:. As did the Knicks.

[8Ball]

Home boy is so clueless about the 90's that he doesn't even know the Blazers had 2 Finals runs :roll:

Nobody even counts the Blazers as a good team. A team ran by Clyde Drexler is their main bragging point.

Jordan home boys keep digging their idol's grave.

[8Ball]

There was just more parity between non-Jordan teams back then, doesn't really mean the league was bad.

Also I completely forgot to list the Jazz, but that team was more than legit, they beat the Shaq Kobe Lakers multiple times.

OKC probably could have been a dynasty if they had stayed together but you can say the same thing about the 90s Orlando Magic.

Jazz? I would put that team on the same level as the 2012 OKC. Nothing to remember.

2 good years and sucked the rest.

[theman93]

Nobody even counts the Blazers as a good team. A team ran by Clyde Drexler is their main bragging point.

Jordan home boys keep digging their idol's grave.

Sure they do. You just downplay the 90's because you hate MJ :lol

[theman93]

Speaking of the Jazz, they were a 50+ win team from 1989-2001 sans 1993 and 1999 (lockout). Great team that unfortunately peaked during the Bulls dynasty.

[Hey Yo]

Jazz, Rockets, Blazers and Knicks just off the top of my head.

Yeah..... those Knicks offenses were impressive as hell!!


:oldlol:

[theman93]

Yeah..... those Knicks offenses were impressive as hell!!


:oldlol:
You don’t have to have an impressive offense to be a great team. Was the 2004 Pistons offense impressive?

[Axe]

Speaking of the Jazz, they were a 50+ win team from 1989-2001 sans 1993 and 1999 (lockout). Great team that unfortunately peaked during the Bulls dynasty.
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/8923425/1_-chwXKqrqKVdoJ965GScFw.0.gif
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/8923427/1_u3ITOrf_2nmvWdcJOdlSCg.0.gif

[2much_knowledge]

Suns - 1 finals run
Blazers - 1 finals run
Sonics - 1 finals run
Orlando - 1 finals run
Rockets - 2 finals run and Jordan was retired / lost in those years.
Knicks - what? Are they even better than pre-Kawhi Raptors?
Pistons are 3-1 vs Jordan.


Meanwhile:
Spurs - 6 finals runs - Consistently won 50 games for like 15 something years.
Golden State - 6 finals in 7 years - Most stacked modern team of all time.

Even the 2012 OKC team is probably better than all Jordan's finals opponents.

Blazers and knicks 2 finals runs. Get you facts first

Lol @ 2012 okc.

[theman93]

Blazers and knicks 2 finals runs. Get you facts first

Lol @ 2012 okc.

He doesnt know 90's ball. He thought MJ eliminated 14 Hall of Famers. Turns out he actually eliminated 24.

[SATAN]

He doesnt know 90's ball. He thought MJ eliminated 14 Hall of Famers. Turns out he actually eliminated 24.

Look how obsessed these guys are with MJ. They completely ignore the fact that Mike had great teammates and a great coach in Phil. :oldlol:

mJ dId It AlL bY hImSeLf!

:oldlol:

[Axe]

Look how obsessed these guys are with MJ. They completely ignore the fact that Mike had great teammates and a great coach in Phil. :oldlol:

mJ dId It AlL bY hImSeLf!

:oldlol:
:roll:

[Bawkish]

Look how obsessed these guys are with MJ. They completely ignore the fact that Mike had great teammates and a great coach in Phil. :oldlol:

mJ dId It AlL bY hImSeLf!

:oldlol:

Coming from the same Bron stan who thinks Bron carried the Cavs in 2016 all by himself

[SATAN]

Coming from the same Bron stan who thinks Bron carried the Cavs in 2016 all by himself

I've never claimed that actually.

Next.

[theman93]

Look how obsessed these guys are with MJ. They completely ignore the fact that Mike had great teammates and a great coach in Phil. :oldlol:

mJ dId It AlL bY hImSeLf!

:oldlol:

Uhh buddy, I’m not the one who made that claim. He did. You’re clueless, as usual.

[3ba11]

Look how obsessed these guys are with MJ. They completely ignore the fact that Mike had great teammates and a great coach in Phil. :oldlol:

mJ dId It AlL bY hImSeLf!

:oldlol:


MJ defeated maximum defensive attention in 6 Finals (carried scoring load), while Lebron never did - when Lebron faced maximum defensive attention in the 07' or 15' Finals, he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn

So Lebron can't carry the scoring load with sufficient jumpshooting skill, efficiency and brand of ball to beat Finals teams (too ball-dominant), so he needs all-time scorers and elite 1st options at sidekick to nearly match his Finals scoring.

Otoh, off-ball experts like Curry or MJ can carry the scoring load with sufficient brand and efficiency to beat Finals teams, so they can win with secondary producers at sidekick like Wiggins or Pippen or Klay.. They're simply FAR superior scorers than Lebron because they can score a lot with a great brand of ball that has sufficient teammate development and fits to win organically.

[2much_knowledge]

Look how obsessed these guys are with MJ. They completely ignore the fact that Mike had great teammates and a great coach in Phil. :oldlol:

mJ dId It AlL bY hImSeLf!

:oldlol:

Jordan is not even on my 3 favorite players ever..... just saying

[3ba11]

Look how obsessed these guys are with MJ. They completely ignore the fact that Mike had great teammates and a great coach in Phil. :oldlol:

mJ dId It AlL bY hImSeLf!

:oldlol:


Jordan won with the least help of any dynasty

And it isn't close

He's the only guy that lacked a go-to teammate for his entire career, so he faced maximum defensive attention, as Kenny Smith explain here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s