Is Lebron's GOAT ring (2016) neutralized by his collusions?

[PeroAntic]

discuss

[Soundwave]

I don't think 2016 is the GOAT ring for one (definitely a great win, but best ever ... nah), but yes, this is obvious to anyone who isn't just stuck on this board ... super teaming is a legacy negative for both LeBron and Durant.

I would say in net affect it basically costs them at least one championship's worth of credibility, people just do not like that about either of them.

It may have been OK if every top player started doing that, making it the norm, the problem is high profile guys like Steph and Giannis have stayed with the team's that drafted them through thick and thin and ended up winning too ... so that reflects badly on LeBron and Durant.

[light]

discuss

Collusions for what? That he colluded to play with players that nobody in history could win with except for him? I don't get the point of the question.

[Soundwave]

Collusions for what? That he colluded to play with players that nobody in history could win with except for him? I don't get the point of the question.

He wanted to short cut his way to a championship by teaming up with two other All-Star players.

This still rubs the general public the wrong way. Same with Durant.

Neither of those guys will probably ever get rid of that stink on them. It doesn't mean the public hates them or doesn't appreciate what they do, but yes when it comes to career legacy, it is something that cheapens the championships they present.

Just the way it goes.

You can super team, but I think if you start down that path, you have to prove *definitively* that you are the greatest ever, it can't be a "well I'm almost on this guy's level, or kinda close, or I do this better"

[HylianNightmare]

100%

[Spurs m8]

Absolutely.

His many failures and always needing more help, as well as bail out shots and being LeAntiClutch all works against it.

Hes just never been feared or as dominant as a top 5 player should..hence not top 5

[warriorfan]

discuss

So 2016 is asterisk ring because of LeBron James calling Adam Silver after the game to get draymond’s foul retroactively upgraded and suspended

2011 is a negative ring when it comes to collusion and the greatest choke of all time aka getting his ass spanked by Jason Terry.

The Laker ring is an asterisk for obvious reasons, bubble exhibition games

2012 is an asterisk or a very unimpressive title at the best with collusion, lock out season, OKC’s core being 23 and under (for reference bron shit the bed in the finals twice before he reached 26. Young players need time before they win championships)

2013 you could give him a ring I guess, still more collusion, bests an aging spurs team after bron bricks, Bosh rebounds, ray Allen bang.

All in all Bron has 1 ring max, he has good arguments for zero rings or even maybe negative rings when we factor in 2011, the goat choke. That is counted as a negative ring.

[GrayGoat]

Curry’s 2017 and 18 ring are nullified because of draymond calling KD in the parkinglot

[Spurs m8]

So 2016 is asterisk ring because of LeBron James calling Adam Silver after the game to get draymond’s foul retroactively upgraded and suspended

2011 is a negative ring when it comes to collusion and the greatest choke of all time aka getting his ass spanked by Jason Terry.

The Laker ring is an asterisk for obvious reasons, bubble exhibition games

2012 is an asterisk or a very unimpressive title at the best with collusion, lock out season, OKC’s core being 23 and under (for reference bron shit the bed in the finals twice before he reached 26. Young players need time before they win championships)

2013 you could give him a ring I guess, still more collusion, bests an aging spurs team after bron bricks, Bosh rebounds, ray Allen bang.

All in all Bron has 1 ring max, he has good arguments for zero rings or even maybe negative rings when we factor in 2011, the goat choke. That is counted as a negative ring.

Correct

[2much_knowledge]

A goat ring would never ever depend on making the league suspend a key player so you can win

[RRR3]

I don't think 2016 is the GOAT ring for one (definitely a great win, but best ever ... nah), but yes, this is obvious to anyone who isn't just stuck on this board ... super teaming is a legacy negative for both LeBron and Durant.

I would say in net affect it basically costs them at least one championship's worth of credibility, people just do not like that about either of them.

It may have been OK if every top player started doing that, making it the norm, the problem is high profile guys like Steph and Giannis have stayed with the team's that drafted them through thick and thin and ended up winning too ... so that reflects badly on LeBron and Durant.
What legacy negative? LeBron is pretty widely considered top 2 all time, his legacy is incredible :lol

[GrayGoat]

A goat ring would never ever depend on making the league suspend a key player so you can win

Was he suspended the whole series? Now draygod matters? You guys flip flop so much. Now he wants to be paid he’s a scrub. But if he joins LeBron he’s a star again

[Soundwave]

What legacy negative? LeBron is pretty widely considered top 2 all time, his legacy is incredible :lol

Yeah his ranking is fine, nothing wrong with being largely considered 2nd (though I feel Kareem is just throw out like an after thought, if anyone should feel slighted it's probably him). My use of "negative" in that context was just referring to the super team aspect ... it is something that will be used as a knock against basically any high profile player that does it. Now you can argue until blue in the face why that shouldn't be, but I don't think you're going to win over too many general basketball fans.

The public by a wide margin has Jordan at 1, 2 is probably LeBron, personally I think it's a toss up there between LeBron and Kareem.

Every player in the top 10 has an incredible legacy by the way, it's not "well 2 great players and then a big drop off".

If you put the 10 best players on a basketball court all in their peak prime and let them scrimmage every day for 3 months straight, I guarantee there would be days where Shaq is the best player on the floor by far, there would be days where Bird is the best, Wilt would have days where he looks like the best, there would be days where (yes) Kobe is better than anyone else there.

[warriorfan]

A goat ring would never ever depend on making the league suspend a key player so you can win

This. Especially with the context of bron calling up silver after the game about it. :lol

*

[RRR3]

Yeah it is fine, nothing wrong with being largely considered 2nd (though I feel Kareem is just throw out like an after thought, if anyone should feel slighted it's probably him).

The public by a wide margin has Jordan at 1, 2 is probably LeBron, personally I think it's a toss up there between LeBron and Kareem.

Every player in the top 10 has an incredible legacy by the way, it's not "well 2 great players and then a big drop off".

If you put the 10 best players on a basketball court all in their peak prime and let them scrimmage every day for 3 months straight, I guarantee there would be days where Shaq is the best player on the floor by far, there would be days where Bird is the best, there would be days where (yes) Kobe is better than anyone else there.
That's not really saying much, Klay Thompson is capable of being the best player on a court with a bunch of top 25 guys, and he didn't even make the top 75 (whether he deserves it or not is another question). If you're capable of getting stupid hot and hitting contested shots, you can outplay just about anyone on a given night. Jamal Crawford was a pretty meh player but he had multiple 50 point games for instance.

[SATAN]

discuss

Derrick Rose is a role player.

[sdot_thadon]

Collusions for what? That he colluded to play with players that nobody in history could win with except for him? I don't get the point of the question.

Kevin Love has never seen a playoff floor without Lebron. Kyrie only made it to the 2nd round with other contenders.....

[warriorfan]

https://c.tenor.com/dxVDVv0L7bwAAAAC/woman-yelling.gif

Kevin love and kyrie aren’t even good!!! Same with AD!! AND WADE!!!

[sdot_thadon]

https://c.tenor.com/dxVDVv0L7bwAAAAC/woman-yelling.gif

Kevin love and kyrie aren’t even good!!! Same with AD!! AND WADE!!!

They are damned good, but what had they done before playing with Lebron. All I used to read about Love was empty stat this empty stat that.

[warriorfan]

They are damned good, but what had they done before playing with Lebron. All I used to read about Love was empty stat this empty stat that.

Ya we know the drill bro, bron never has enough help. Not his fault.

Damn, imagine what the bron kids would be saying if he played on some of Love’s teams in minny :lol

(P.S. Kevin Love would have made the playoffs if he was as fortunate as Bron to play on the historically weak east. In 2014 the Hawks made the playoffs with a 38 win record. Love’s wolves had 40 wins and would have made the playoffs if he wasn’t in the west.)

So yeah, bron stans try to tear down Kevin love for not making the playoffs when he wasn’t as fortunate to play in the weak east like bron. And man if you complain about Kevin Love being your third best player…..just imagine if LeBron played with some of the casts Love did in Minny…:roll:

Clown shit

[GrayGoat]

Warriorfan been melting a lot lately. Chill on the adderall bruh

[RRR3]

Warriorfan been melting a lot lately. Chill on the adderall bruh
Little guy’s always on edge

[warriorfan]

When bron stans can’t refute high iq posts from the big ticket and 3ball

https://c.tenor.com/dxVDVv0L7bwAAAAC/woman-yelling.gif

[Soundwave]

That's not really saying much, Klay Thompson is capable of being the best player on a court with a bunch of top 25 guys, and he didn't even make the top 75 (whether he deserves it or not is another question). If you're capable of getting stupid hot and hitting contested shots, you can outplay just about anyone on a given night. Jamal Crawford was a pretty meh player but he had multiple 50 point games for instance.

Well OK then, let me be even more specific.

Lets say you could take the top 10 players by conensus in their prime and you created a hypothetical "Dream League" where you gave each one of them a team of players of roughly identical supporting casts.

After watching that league for 10 years do I think like Jordan or LeBron would have like 8/10 championships between the 2 of them and the rest of the top 10 players are fighting over the last meager two?

**** no.

I suspect like it would be very much a league of parity, maybe Jordan has 1 or 2 titles, maybe LeBron has 1 or 2 titles, Shaq has 1 or 2, Kobe has 1 or 2, Magic has 1 or 2, Bird has 1 or 2, etc. etc. etc.

Maybe Michael has an extra title over the field but I only think that because of his mental mastery of the game, nothing physical or even skill based.

[sdot_thadon]

Ya we know the drill bro, bron never has enough help. Not his fault.

Damn, imagine what the bron kids would be saying if he played on some of Love’s teams in minny :lol

(P.S. Kevin Love would have made the playoffs if he was as fortunate as Bron to play on the historically weak east. In 2014 the Hawks made the playoffs with a 38 win record. Love’s wolves had 40 wins and would have made the playoffs if he wasn’t in the west.)

So yeah, bron stans try to tear down Kevin love for not making the playoffs when he wasn’t as fortunate to play in the weak east like bron. And man if you complain about Kevin Love being your third best player…..just imagine if LeBron played with some of the casts Love did in Minny…:roll:

Clown shit

Way to jump off a cliff lol.

[warriorfan]

https://c.tenor.com/dxVDVv0L7bwAAAAC/woman-yelling.gif

:lol

If jumping off a cliff you mean tearing apart shitty narratives used in a weak attempt to prop up bron and excuse his shortcomings, then yeah.

[Axe]

Any of kong's finals losses are less worse than that of the 2016 warriors.


So 2016 is asterisk ring because of LeBron James calling Adam Silver after the game to get draymond’s foul retroactively upgraded and suspended
How you're clowning the donkey in other threads and saying that one above is beyond me.

[2much_knowledge]

Was he suspended the whole series? Now draygod matters? You guys flip flop so much. Now he wants to be paid he’s a scrub. But if he joins LeBron he’s a star again

Ever heard of a thing called momentum swing?

[3ba11]

Lots of misperception itt

[3ba11]

:facepalm:

[3ba11]

Lebron's "decision" actually hand-picked the preseason favorite from 11-16' and this locked the league down with 3 chips in 6 years - this included preventing organic rings from 12' Durant, 13' Duncan and 16' Curry.

So people were happy in 2017 when Durant got to hand-pick the preseason favorite after Lebron did it the previous 6... Lebron had a 6-year headstart in the colluding space and it was extremely unfair.

And imagine if Pippen went to the 93' Finals and destroyed MVP Barkley, while also hitting a top 3 all-time shot to win Game 7 - people would laugh at Jordan if Jordan called it his goat achievement..

Yet that's what Lebron did... He had an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, so he never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals)..

Sharing the scoring load is objectively inferior to carrying the scoring load (defeating maximum defensive attention) like other guys did to win Finals, including Curry, Kobe or Jordan..

[RogueBorg]

What legacy negative? LeBron is pretty widely considered top 2 all time, his legacy is incredible :lol

There is no argument for Lebron over KAJ.

[Hey Yo]

:lol

If jumping off a cliff you mean tearing apart shitty narratives used in a weak attempt to prop up bron and excuse his shortcomings, then yeah.

"Superstar" Kevin Love in the 2016 Finals.

26mp
8pts and 7 boards
FG% 36
3P% 26

Yet GS fans cry about Harrison Barnes.... :lol

[RogueBorg]

"Superstar" Kevin Love in the 2016 Finals.

26mp
8pts and 7 boards
FG% 36
3P% 26

Yet GS fans cry about Harrison Barnes.... :lol

Don't you see a pattern developing? Playing with Lebron is where NBA players careers go to die. He wrecked;
1. Wade
2. Bosh
3. Love
4. Kyrie
5. Ingram - thankfully he got away in time
6. AD
7. Westbrook

(did I miss anyone?)

My God man, where does the carnage end?

[Hey Yo]

Don't you see a pattern developing? Playing with Lebron is where NBA players careers go to die. He wrecked;
1. Wade
2. Bosh
3. Love
4. Kyrie
5. Ingram - thankfully he got away in time
6. AD
7. Westbrook

(did I miss anyone?)

My God man, where does the carnage end?

LOL @ your desperation and low IQ of the game. That's the only pattern I can firmly see

[RogueBorg]

That's the only pattern I can firmly see

A dim light stays dim.

[Hey Yo]

And a dimwit stays dumb.... good job, chico

[Axe]

LOL @ your desperation and low IQ of the game. That's the only pattern I can firmly see

And a dimwit stays dumb.... good job, chico
:lol

[warriorfan]

Don't you see a pattern developing? Playing with Lebron is where NBA players careers go to die. He wrecked;
1. Wade
2. Bosh
3. Love
4. Kyrie
5. Ingram - thankfully he got away in time
6. AD
7. Westbrook

(did I miss anyone?)

My God man, where does the carnage end?

Bron stans aren’t good with simple pattern recognition.

To them it’s just one huge coincidence, bron just has bad luck and always plays with scrubs in their eyes I guess?

:lol

[theman93]

Bron stans aren’t good with simple pattern recognition.

To them it’s just one huge coincidence, bron just has bad luck and always plays with scrubs in their eyes I guess?

:lol

Another coincidental pattern?:

2019 - Misses playoffs with no AD
2020 - Wins Finals with AD
2021 - Loses in 1st round after AD gets injured
2022 - Misses play-in after AD gets injured

[Lebron23]

Yeah his ranking is fine, nothing wrong with being largely considered 2nd (though I feel Kareem is just throw out like an after thought, if anyone should feel slighted it's probably him). My use of "negative" in that context was just referring to the super team aspect ... it is something that will be used as a knock against basically any high profile player that does it. Now you can argue until blue in the face why that shouldn't be, but I don't think you're going to win over too many general basketball fans.

The public by a wide margin has Jordan at 1, 2 is probably LeBron, personally I think it's a toss up there between LeBron and Kareem.

Every player in the top 10 has an incredible legacy by the way, it's not "well 2 great players and then a big drop off".

If you put the 10 best players on a basketball court all in their peak prime and let them scrimmage every day for 3 months straight, I guarantee there would be days where Shaq is the best player on the floor by far, there would be days where Bird is the best, Wilt would have days where he looks like the best, there would be days where (yes) Kobe is better than anyone else there.

Stop hating on LeBron. You are a F*cking nerd.

[RogueBorg]

Bron stans aren’t good with simple pattern recognition.

To them it’s just one huge coincidence, bron just has bad luck and always plays with scrubs in their eyes I guess?

:lol

Yeah they're not very bright. But it's not their fault, can't get mad at a toddler because it can't count to 2.

[TheGoatest]

The fact that LeGOATest won a ring/Finals MVP while beating a 73-9 team in only his second season after arriving to a roster where his #2 and #3 guy hadn't played a playoff game in their lives only puts an exclamation on a ring that would've been the GOAT ring anyway.

Then there's the little thing of him being the only player to lead both teams in all categories in a playoff, let alone finals series, while winning that ring. :applause: :rockon: