We all agree that 88' MJ wins title with Kareem/Worthy or McHale/Parish, so why... [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ba11

08-03-2022, 01:35 PM

do people say that Jordan had to learn to involve teammates?

What teammates?

He just didn't have any help... The instant he had a modicum of help (a top 7 defense and 17 ppg sidekick), he won 6 titles - that's the least help of any dynasty, which is why he's goat.

So why all the nonsense about how he didn't know how to win? He entered the league as a clutch winner with all-time fundamentals after winning the title at North Carolina..

MJ won every title as scoring champ and some of his highest scoring series or playoff runs happened during title years - so he didn't have to tone it down or change anything to win - his teammates simply got a little better so he finally won.. He should be commended for having a skillset that allowed teammates to grow, while not needing super-teams like Magic, Bird, Lebron, Kareem, Durant, or Shaq (shaq/kobe).

RRR3

08-03-2022, 01:41 PM

3ba11

08-03-2022, 01:53 PM

Nope he wasn’t as good as Bird those years he didn’t come up clutch that’s why he lost. No one cares about his empty stats. You can’t disagree with this because you claimed Kobe played better in the 2000 finals than LeBron did in the 2008 ecf.

Jordan was clutch since his freshman year at North Carolina when he hit the game-winner, while Bird choked in his national championship

80's Jordan had goat clutch to beat the #1 SRS team in a massive upset, which spearheaded the rise of the goat modern dynasty:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gt3I1bgKLgo&t=06m08s

So young Jordan was already legendary clutch, while Lebron wet the bed repeatedly until Wade taught him how to perform under pressure

RRR3

08-03-2022, 02:01 PM

Jordan was clutch since his freshman year at North Carolina when he hit the game-winner, while Bird choked in his national championship

80's Jordan had goat clutch to beat the #1 SRS team in a massive upset, which spearheaded the rise of the goat modern dynasty:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gt3I1bgKLgo&t=06m08s

So young Jordan was already legendary clutch, while Lebron wet the bed repeatedly until Wade taught him how to perform under pressure
Where was the clutch when he faced Bird? Seemed like he wasn’t able to be clutch in the NBA until Pippen taught him how.

3ba11

08-03-2022, 02:03 PM

Where was the clutch when he faced Bird? Seemed like he wasn’t able to be clutch in the NBA until Pippen taught him how.

86' and 87' Jordan had teams like the 05' Cavs and he was facing a team like the 17' Warriors

Otoh, Lebron lost as the league favorite to 1-star teams where the star wasn't even top 75 (Dwight)

Lol

RRR3

08-03-2022, 02:24 PM

86' and 87' Jordan had teams like the 05' Cavs and he was facing a team like the 17' Warriors

Otoh, Lebron lost as the league favorite to 1-star teams where the star wasn't even top 75 (Dwight)

Lol
You do realize the 05 and 09 Cavs weren’t that different in terms of talent around LeBron right? LeBron just got a lot better hence he was able to drag them to more wins. MJ didn’t have less help than LeBron did in 09 back in the 80s he just wasn’t as good as LeBeast was that year.

bizil

08-03-2022, 02:26 PM

I think the MJ doesn't make his teammates better and forces shots stuff starting coming his 4th and 5th seasons. His first season, he played with a 20 PPG scorer in Orlando Woolridge. A guy who could get his own shots in an efficient manner. So MJ was MORE WILLING to get him the rock. Because he knew what Woolridge could do. His 2nd season, MJ had the broken foot and missed most of the season. And then he had that incredible playoff against Boston. His 3rd season, he had that sick 37 PPG season. At THIS POINT, MJ was being considered as arguably the best player in the league.

BUT from there expectations went up. And MJ DIDN'T have a 20 PPG scorer like Orlando there anymore (who was gone after 85-86). So I think MJ was under the microscope more. And due to lack of scoring help around him was INDEED PLAYING hero ball. But the thing is you gotta keep guys involved enough to embrace doing the dirty work. Guys like Paxson are very capable shooters. Those guys were NEVER gonna heavily impact games scoring over the long haul. BUT u still GOTTA make those guys better at the same time.

IF MJ was playing with guys like a Woolridge, those guys would get their 20 PPG. And MJ was WILLING to get the rock to those guys. It was the AVERAGE to BELOW average scorers where MJ needed to learn to make them better. The triangle and Phil was the final ingredient for that. EVEN THOUGH I think MJ was showing growth in that area before Phil

3ba11

08-03-2022, 02:45 PM

You do realize the 05 and 09 Cavs weren’t that different in terms of talent around LeBron right? LeBron just got a lot better hence he was able to drag them to more wins. MJ didn’t have less help than LeBron did in 09 back in the 80s he just wasn’t as good as LeBeast was that year.

The 2008 Cavs only won 45 games

And Lebron averaged 26 on 35% to lose in the 2nd Round

So Lebron wasn't doing shit until Mo Williams arrived.. Mo was the first guy to demonstrate and teach us that Lebron's game needs top-tier shooting around him.

Mo turned the team into a 66-win league favorite by getting higher PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than 90' Pippen..

In addition to having superior offensive help than the 1990 Bulls, the 09' Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense compared to 19th for the Bulls.. So Lebron had a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost again despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite.

Btw, Zydrunas was an all-star in 2005 that averaged 18/9 and 2.1 blocks.. The all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender to make the 06' Playoffs as a favored, high seed - so Lebron always had one of the best teams and casts relative to the conference - he never had to carry bad teams that only won 30-40 games like Jordan's 80's Bulls.

RRR3

08-03-2022, 02:47 PM

The 2008 Cavs only won 45 games

And Lebron averaged 26 on 35% to lose in the 2nd Round

So Lebron wasn't doing shit until Mo Williams arrived.. Mo was the first guy to demonstrate and teach us that Lebron's game needs top-tier shooting around him.

Mo turned the team into a 66-win league favorite by getting higher PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than 90' Pippen..

In addition to having superior offensive help than the 1990 Bulls, the 09' Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense compared to 19th for the Bulls.. So Lebron had a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost again despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite.
LeBron didn’t enter his prime until 2009. Giving Mo Williams credit for a 21 win increase is proof you’re retarded

3ba11

08-03-2022, 02:50 PM

LeBron didn’t enter his prime until 2009. Giving Mo Williams credit for a 21 win increase is proof you’re retarded

I'm just stating the historical record:

The 2008 Cavs only won 45 games

And Lebron averaged 26 on 35% to lose in the 2nd Round

So Lebron wasn't doing shit until Mo Williams arrived.. Mo was the first guy to demonstrate and teach us that Lebron's game needs top-tier shooting around him.

Mo turned the team into a 66-win league favorite by getting higher PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than 90' Pippen..

In addition to having superior offensive help than the 1990 Bulls, the 09' Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense compared to 19th for the Bulls.. So Lebron had a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost again despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite.

Btw, Zydrunas was an all-star in 2005 that averaged 18/9 and 2.1 blocks.. The all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender to make the 06' Playoffs as a favored, high seed - so Lebron always had one of the best teams and casts relative to the conference - he never had to carry bad teams that only won 30-40 games like Jordan's 80's Bulls.

ShawkFactory

08-03-2022, 02:52 PM

I'm just stating the historical record:

Like the type of historical record that states that Jordan went 1-9 in playoff games without Scottie Pippen on the team?

3ba11

08-03-2022, 02:56 PM

Like the type of historical record that states that Jordan went 1-9 in playoff games without Scottie Pippen on the team?

^^ a timing coincidence where the only time that MJ didn't have Pippen is when nearly EVERYONE loses, aka Curry, Giannis, Lebron and Durant were lottery for their first few years

SouBeachTalents

08-03-2022, 02:56 PM

Like the type of historical record that states that Jordan went 1-9 in playoff games without Scottie Pippen on the team?
Or that LeBron has better production and accolades across the board than Kobe.

3ba11

08-03-2022, 02:58 PM

Or that LeBron has better production and accolades across the board than Kobe.

And yet he still has a crappier brand of ball that lacks the teammate development and fits to win organically

So he never learned how to win (organic.. chemistry) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning.. all-star team strategy)

His simpleton, ball-dominant skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.. He never evolved out of simpleton, ball-dominant offenses that revolve around him, so his team ceiling suffers (4/10).

ShawkFactory

08-03-2022, 03:00 PM

^^ a timing coincidence where the only time that MJ didn't have Pippen is when nearly EVERYONE loses, aka Curry, Giannis, Lebron and Durant were lottery for their first few years

What are you talking about..Michael Jordan went 1-9 in the playoffs without Pippen. I'm just stating the historical record

3ba11

08-03-2022, 03:03 PM

What are you talking about..Michael Jordan went 1-9 in the playoffs without Pippen. I'm just stating the historical record

He did that at a career stage when everyone loses - the first part of their career

Lebron does that in his prime with super-teams and preseason favorites

and Jordan lost with 30-win teams and 8 seeds.. Everyone loses with that

Hey Yo

08-03-2022, 03:04 PM

Jordan was clutch since his freshman year at North Carolina when he hit the game-winner, while Bird choked in his national championship

80's Jordan had goat clutch to beat the #1 SRS team in a massive upset, which spearheaded the rise of the goat modern dynasty:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gt3I1bgKLgo&t=06m08s

So young Jordan was already legendary clutch, while Lebron wet the bed repeatedly until Wade taught him how to perform under pressure

Young Jordan failed to make the Final 4 after daddy Worthy left. Even had All American Big Smooth and still wasnt able to sniff another national championship.

3ba11

08-03-2022, 03:06 PM

Young Jordan failed to make the Final 4 after daddy Worthy left. Even had All American Big Smooth and still wasnt able to sniff another national championship.

Yeah but it isn't a 7-game series so there's a lot of luck in a one-off

It's amazing that he got a chip in that format, although maybe not that amazing because he personally ensured it (hit the winner)

SouBeachTalents

08-03-2022, 03:07 PM

And yet he still has a crappier brand of ball that lacks the teammate development and fits to win organically

So he never learned how to win (organic.. chemistry) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning.. all-star team strategy)

His simpleton, ball-dominant skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.. He never evolved out of simpleton, ball-dominant offenses that revolve around him, so his team ceiling suffers (4/10).
I was stating the historical record. Yours is subjective nonsense.

ShawkFactory

08-03-2022, 03:09 PM

I was stating the historical record. Yours is subjective nonsense.

Precisely.

Hey Yo

08-03-2022, 03:15 PM

Yeah but it isn't a 7-game series so there's a lot of luck in a one-off

It's amazing that he got a chip in that format, although maybe not that amazing because he personally ensured it (hit the winner)

Actually it was Daddy Worthy who ensured it. He was the main reason why they were even in the title game.

No Worthy, no final 4, no title... see 83 and 84.

3ba11

08-03-2022, 03:23 PM

I was stating the historical record. Yours is subjective nonsense.

It's historical record that Lebron had bad fits with many teammates - numerous decorated players or perennial all-stars were subjugated to basic roles alongside his skillset and saw their stats crater.

So he has bad fits.. :confusedshrug:

It's also historical record that zero young players grew from low producers to viable producers on his watch.

So his skillset has bad teammate development... :confusedshrug:

So it isn't subjective.. It's intuitive.

Lebron lacks the teammate development and fits to win organically, so he never won organically

Even in 2014 when everyone said that Spo had him playing off-ball a little bit - he still had a point guard hold-time (5.5 minutes) and therefore had a 2 point guard lineup with Chalmers (similar hold-time).. So all the facts are there to demonstrate his abnormally ball-dominant offenses, inferior brand of ball and predictably underachieving teams (record blowout in Finals).

3ba11

08-03-2022, 03:30 PM

.
Thread Cliffs

Who actually won a bunch of rings with little help?

Magic with Kareem and a super-team? The super-teams of Bird, Durant, Lebron, Magic, Shaq/Kobe?

Or MJ with a cast of hustle players and no other go-to players?

RRR3

08-03-2022, 03:41 PM

He did that at a career stage when everyone loses - the first part of their career

Lebron does that in his prime with super-teams and preseason favorites

and Jordan lost with 30-win teams and 8 seeds.. Everyone loses with that
So true LeBron wasn’t at the first part of his career in 2008 before he even entered his prime.

Phoenix

08-03-2022, 04:45 PM

We all agree? Don't recall us having that discussion to be honest.

Phoenix

08-03-2022, 04:48 PM

He did that at a career stage when everyone loses - the first part of their career

L

And yet Luka's 'shit' brand of ball produced infinitely better team results over his first 3 playoffs.

3ba11

08-03-2022, 09:26 PM

And yet Luka's 'shit' brand of ball produced infinitely better team results over his first 3 playoffs.

Jordan would've won the title with Porzingas or Brunson

No one lost less with an all-star than Jordan - he only lost the migraine and baseball years - everyone else in history lost a ton with all-stars and multiple all-stars

RRR3

08-03-2022, 09:32 PM

Jordan would've won the title with Porzingas or Brunson

No one lost less with an all-star than Jordan - he only lost the migraine and baseball years - everyone else in history lost a ton with all-stars and multiple all-stars
Brunson isn’t an all-star. So Luka is better at carrying teams than MJ ever was.

3ba11

08-03-2022, 09:44 PM

Brunson isn’t an all-star. So Luka is better at carrying teams than MJ ever was.

Luka's brand of ball reduces all-stars like Porzingas, which is why those teams never went anywhere - Jordan would've titled with the Porzingas and the titles would've made him a HOF'er, just like Pippen

Btw, Pippen averaged 14/6/3 in 1989, including 9 on 40% in the ECF - he was nowhere near Brunson, yet Jordan carried his inferior cast further than Luka that year

ShawkFactory

08-03-2022, 09:52 PM

Luka's brand of ball reduces all-stars like Porzingas, which is why those teams never went anywhere - Jordan would've titled with the Porzingas and the titles would've made him a HOF'er, just like Pippen

Btw, Pippen averaged 14/6/3 in 1989, including 9 on 40% in the ECF - he was nowhere near Brunson, yet Jordan carried his inferior cast further than Luka that year

Oh is that what happened to Porzingis?

RRR3

08-03-2022, 09:54 PM

3ba11

08-03-2022, 09:59 PM

14 PPG is horrid but Kobe is great for averaging 15.6 :lol

More than half of Kobe's 15 came in the clutch (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4).

Otoh, Pippen had many series where he didn't score a single point in clutch-time, just like Lebron in the 11' Finals.. Jordan won 6 chips with 11' Finals-Lebron... :bowdown:

So you can't compare Pippen's 15 on 34% to Kobe's.. Night and day.. Kobe required game-planning - he wasn't just a transition/hustler that wasn't on the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif) like Pippen

If Kobe averaged 15, it was because he had an off series, whereas Pippen routinely averaged 15 as a transition/hustle player that couldn't shoot

RRR3

08-03-2022, 10:04 PM

More than half of Kobe's 15 came in the clutch (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4).

Otoh, Pippen had many series where he didn't score a single point in clutch-time, just like Lebron in the 11' Finals.. Jordan won 6 chips with 11' Finals-Lebron... :bowdown:

So you can't compare Pippen's 15 on 34% to Kobe's.. Night and day.. Kobe required game-planning - he wasn't just a transition/hustler that wasn't on the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif) like Pippen

If Kobe averaged 15, it was because he had an off series, whereas Pippen routinely averaged 15 as a transition/hustle player that couldn't shoot
Goalpost moving as usual when you’re caught.

3ba11

08-03-2022, 10:07 PM

Goalpost moving as usual when you’re caught.

It's just facts

Jordan won 6 titles with a guy that usually averaged about 18/7/5 with zero in clutch-time - that's exactly like Lebron in the 11' Finals..

So Jordan won 6 titles with 11' Finals-Lebron (18/7/5 and frightened in the clutch, aka PIPPEN)

3ba11

08-03-2022, 10:14 PM

Oh is that what happened to Porzingis?

Luka couldn't do shit with a talent like Porzingas because Luka's skillset has weak teammate fits - that's why they had to move Brunson, aka bad fit - anyone good is a bad fit with Luka-ball lol

Jordan would've titled with a talent like Porzingas

ShawkFactory

08-03-2022, 10:29 PM

More than half of Kobe's 15 came in the clutch (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4).

Lol that’s not how that works.

RRR3

08-03-2022, 10:51 PM

It's just facts

Jordan won 6 titles with a guy that usually averaged about 18/7/5 with zero in clutch-time - that's exactly like Lebron in the 11' Finals..

So Jordan won 6 titles with 11' Finals-Lebron (18/7/5 and frightened in the clutch, aka PIPPEN)
Citation needed.

RRR3

08-03-2022, 10:52 PM

Lol that’s not how that works.
He legit doesn't realize that sample size is like two games out of six in that series.

3ba11

08-03-2022, 11:35 PM

Citation needed.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4

So that's 18/7/5 and zero in clutch-time

RRR3

08-03-2022, 11:38 PM

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4

So that's 18/7/5 and zero in clutch-time
That's LeBron in the 2011 finals. We were talking about Pippen. Keep up.

3ba11

08-03-2022, 11:41 PM

That's LeBron in the 2011 finals. We were talking about Pippen. Keep up.

98' Semis

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=2&PerMode=Totals

Bum

And he averaged 3.0 ppg on 20% (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/cKS3B2.gif) in the entire 4th quarter of the 94' Semis.. So probably zero in the clutch again

RRR3

08-03-2022, 11:43 PM

98' Semis

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=2&PerMode=Totals

Bum

And he averaged 3.0 ppg on 20% in the entire 4th quarter of the 94' Semis.. So probably zero in the clutch again
A six minute sample size? Are you ****ing serious? :roll:

3ba11

08-03-2022, 11:52 PM

A six minute sample size?

Are you ****ing serious? :roll:

6 minutes is a long time because a series can be decided on 1 clutch possession let alone 6 minutes' worth

And we only have stats for 97' and 98', where Pippen's clutch was among the worst

The numbers speak for themselves

Otoh, Stockton was literally Jordan in the clutch

Are you ****ing serious? :roll:

There's an excellent chance that he had zero clutch points in the 94' ECSF since he averaged 3.0 on 20% for the entire 4th:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/cKS3B2.gif

Outside of the dynasty system that Pippen lucked into and grew up in, he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score

RRR3

08-03-2022, 11:58 PM

6 minutes is a long time because a series can be decided on 1 clutch possession let alone 6 minutes' worth

And we only have stats for 97' and 98', where Pippen's clutch was among the worst

The numbers speak for themselves

Otoh, Stockton was literally Jordan in the clutch

There's an excellent chance that he had zero clutch points in the 94' ECSF since he averaged 3.0 on 20% for the entire 4th:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/cKS3B2.gif

Outside of the dynasty system that Pippen lucked into and grew up in, he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score
A six minute sample size is less than half a quarter of a single game you idiot. Complete scrubs have had six minute stretches where they dominated. And how did he score his most PPG when MJ retired if he needed MJ to score?

kawhileonard2

08-04-2022, 12:08 AM

A six minute sample size is less than half a quarter of a single game you idiot. Complete scrubs have had six minute stretches where they dominated. And how did he score his most PPG when MJ retired if he needed MJ to score?

3ball just broke you. Give up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzNKbiRdXtA&t=548s

light

08-04-2022, 12:41 AM

Phoenix

08-04-2022, 03:12 AM

Jordan would've won the title with Porzingas or Brunson

No one lost less with an all-star than Jordan - he only lost the migraine and baseball years - everyone else in history lost a ton with all-stars and multiple all-stars

Luka's first three playoff series produced much better team results and no, 84-87 Jordan isn't winning a title with Brunson or Porzingas.