The 1991 debate: Michael vs Magic - "Which man makes his teammates better?"

[theman93]

"It is a matchup so natural, so provocative, that basketball fans have argued it for years. "Who is the better player" they've asked, but of course, there's been no answer. Because how are we to judge? One man is the league's top scorer, but his counterpart is the all-time assist leader. One man is the current MVP, but the other owns 5 championship rings. These stalemates have then led to the ultimate subjective question. Which man makes his teammates better? In this season, to be sure, there is no clear cut difference. And so the debate has raged. On radio talk shows, in the press, in the imagination. But never on the basketball court until now. This is the place where fantasy meets reality. Michael versus Magic with the games biggest prize at stake. Let the answer reveal itself."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9OIekC43ek&t=131s

[TheGoatest]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eibq7MpTAvE

[8Ball]

The answer is Magic.

Debate settled long ago chico

[ArbitraryWater]

that was mainly fantasy mumbo jumbo

like asking who was better between bron and kobe in '09

it was obviously MJ / bron

[SATAN]

Magic.

[Round Mound]

Magic but MJ is the better individual player.

[Axe]

Magic actually led all players in assists during that series if anything.

[SATAN]

theman93 with a flawed and blatantly biased arguing point and cherry picked stats in 4...3...2...

[3ba11]

Magic actually led all players in assists during that series if anything.


Magic never made anyone better because he had ready-made stars like Kareem

Otoh, Jordan built Pippen, Grant and BJ from low producers to viable producers - only Jordan grew young players

People don't realize that having a high assisted rate (being an assist TARGET that creates assists for teammates and promotes ball movement) puts the ball in teammates hands and makes them better - it's just as important as getting assists, so personal APG means little in a comparison of who makes teammates better..

[jlip]

I don't know the source of the OP's quote, but it sounds like, at best, some columnist at the time seeking to say something provocative just to grab attention and increase readership. Even if one concedes that throughout his career, Magic obviously played with better players up until 1990, there was still absolutely no mainstream debate or conversation as to who supposedly "made his teammates" better between the two. The answer was always Magic in a landslide. One of the primary questions going into the '91 finals was not who makes his teammates better, Magic or Jordan. It was, "Will Jordan finally start trusting his teammates?" Everybody who is familiar with the series remembers the story of how Phil Jackson had to literally remind Jordan in the 4th quarter of the closeout game as the Lakers were trying to mount a comeback that every time the Lakers double teamed him, he actually had a teammate named Paxson who was open. Jordan admits this himself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5z0b6YCcUk).

[3ba11]

I don't know the source of the OP's quote, but it sounds like, at best, some columnist at the time seeking to say something provocative just to grab attention and increase readership. Even if one concedes that throughout his career, Magic obviously played with better players up until 1990, there was still absolutely no mainstream debate or conversation as to who supposedly "made his teammates" better between the two. The answer was always Magic in a landslide. One of the primary questions going into the '91 finals was not who makes his teammates better, Magic or Jordan. It was, "Will Jordan finally start trusting his teammates?"





Jordan was blamed for his teammates playing poorly and "not trusting teammates" was the excuse his teammates got from the media

but the reality is that Pippen averaged 9 on 40% in the 89' ECF and only 14/6/3 in the regular season - so he just sucked - Jordan was helping him grow by leaps and bounds but it takes time to grow a 7 ppg rookie into a viable producer.

So the media is just dumb - literally - Jordan would've won every single year from 85-89' with Kareem/Worthy or McHale/Parish.. He was clutch from his North Carolina days and already knew how to win.

Again, the media is just dumb and fans go for it







Everybody who is familiar with the series remembers the story of how Phil Jackson had to literally remind Jordan in the 4th quarter of the closeout game as the Lakers were trying to mount a comeback that every time the Lakers double teamed him, he actually had a teammate named Paxson who was open. Jordan admits this himself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5z0b6YCcUk).





^^^ that's called regular coaching

Every player in the history of basketball has had a coach say - "this guy is open"

It's called coaching

Jordan entered the league with the best fundamentals from North Carolina and averaged 6 apg with low turnovers despite a goat scoring burden.. He was called the best point guard in the league in 1989 when he played point guard for 25 games (30/9/11)... And he was already averaging 11 assists for the series before Phil told him to find Paxson...

So it's all BS from the media so they have something to say on TV and there isn't silence

Literally

[Axe]

Magic never made anyone better because he had ready-made stars like Kareem

Otoh, Jordan built Pippen, Grant and BJ from low producers to viable producers - only Jordan grew young players

People don't realize that having a high assisted rate (being an assist TARGET that creates assists for teammates and promotes ball movement) puts the ball in teammates hands and makes them better - it's just as important as getting assists, so personal APG means little in a comparison of who makes teammates better..
Magic > kobe :kobe:

[3ba11]

Magic > kobe :kobe:


Bird and Kobe could pass and be "Magic" if they wanted or needed

But Magic could never win as a dominant carry-job scorer like they could, primarily because he lacked the elite jumpshooting skill needed to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load)

[Axe]

Bird and Kobe could pass and be "Magic" if they wanted or needed

But Magic could never win as a dominant carry-job scorer like they could, primarily because he lacked the elite jumpshooting skill needed to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load)
9 finals > 7 finals :kobe:

[3ba11]

9 finals > 7 finals :kobe:


Finals appearances are conference-dependant - only winning them matters and they both won 5

But only Kobe won without a top 10 all-time teammate or without a top 75 teammate... And that's because he can defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load)

[Axe]

Finals appearances are conference-dependant - only winning them matters and they both won 5

But only Kobe won without a top 10 all-time teammate or without a top 75 teammate... And that's because he can defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load)
3 league mvps > 1 league mvp

:kobe:

[3ba11]

3 league mvps > 1 league mvp

:kobe:


Media awards?

:whatever:


Okay... 10 all-defense > 1 or zero (whatever magic had)

[Axe]

Media awards?

:whatever:


Okay... 10 all-defense > 1 or zero (whatever magic had)
3 finals mvps > 2 finals mvps

:kobe:

[3ba11]

3 finals mvps > 2 finals mvps

:kobe:


2 times winning with non-super-team > 0

[Axe]

2 times winning with non-super-team > 0
11.2 career apg > 4.7 career apg

:kobe:

[999Guy]

that was mainly fantasy mumbo jumbo

like asking who was better between bron and kobe in '09

it was obviously MJ / bron
Eh not really. Jordan was a stat padding gunner.

Magic was putting his finishing touches on a career that essentially solved NBA defense by 1985. Magic got into mastering the post and really shooting3’s by the 90’s. He was sage level offensively.

[3ba11]

11.2 career apg > 4.7 career apg

:kobe:


1 blaze of glory > 0

[Axe]

1 blaze of glory > 0
1 nba lifetime achievement award > 0

:kobe:

[SouBeachTalents]

Bird and Kobe could pass and be "Magic" if they wanted or needed

But Magic could never win as a dominant carry-job scorer like they could, primarily because he lacked the elite jumpshooting skill needed to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load)
:roll: You're retarded.

[3ba11]

:roll: You're retarded.


Kobe has tons of games with 10+ assists

Whereas Magic never scored 45, 50, 60.. He basically never scored 40 except a couple times in his entire career

He never successfully carried the scoring load like Kobe

And in general, passing ability is less important than scoring ability and the way a player scores

So Kobe was better at the more important category

[kawhileonard2]

Jordan. He turned players into stars. Magic joined stars and had stars come to LA.

Pippen became great due to playing with Jordan, he even said so himself.

Source: GoogleBooks (http://books.google.com/books?id=aQ84ViBNkYwC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=Game+Michael+Jordan+broke+his+leg&source=web&ots=Y9Xtn3nomR&sig=6shSn2cklYKVP1kBaC6nI0A_oko&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA39,M1)




Pippen, unlike other Bulls who usually kept their distance from Jordan, tried to learn all he could from Jordan in practice. In turn, Jordan worked with Pippen on his moves, jump shot, and defense and taught him mental toughness.



Pippen relates on how his game improved - Link (http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/jordanhof_pippen_090910.html)


http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/jordanpippen_090910.jpg




“He was very competitive, so he went at me and that helped me learn,” said Pippen. “You continue to compete against the very best every day, and you will get better, or you’ll be embarrassed.”




“I went to a small school, so I had to be a jack of all trades and master a few,” said Pippen. “Defense was one thing I was really able to work at and get better.

“A lot of my instincts came from guarding Michael all the time in practice,” he added. “I had four other guys on my team, but I had schemes that I would throw out there depending on what he did. I’d say, ‘If I make Michael do this, then you go trap him.’ There were things I tried to do on defense to trigger him into a
mistake. He was a great player, and if you couldn’t try it on him in practice, there was nowhere else to try it.”



Pippen realized himself that going against MJ is what made him better.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-krausejordan090909



“Michael was great at identifying things,” Krause said. “Would Pippen have been great someplace else? Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him.”

[kawhileonard2]

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-05/sports/sp-83_1_lakers


Magic Johnson would have returned to Michigan State rather than play for the Chicago Bulls.

"I'd have stayed in school," he said here Tuesday, standing alone outside Gate 3 1/2 of Chicago Stadium, the house that could have been his. "A coin toss changed the course of my whole life."

Johnson signed with the Lakers after his sophomore year of college and proceeded to win five championships. The Bulls picked second, took UCLA's David Greenwood and have won no championships.

"I wouldn't have played here," Johnson said on the eve of Game 2 of the NBA finals between his team and the team that could have been his. "The only reason I came out was to play with Kareem and the Lakers.


In contrary here is what Jordan said:



"When I came here we started from scratch," he said. "We started at the bottom and made it to the top. It's been a long, long seven years, a lot of bad teams, a lot of improvement, step by step, inch by inch. I never gave up hope. I always had faith."

[Axe]

Kobe has tons of games with 10+ assists

Whereas Magic never scored 45, 50, 60.. He basically never scored 40 except a couple times in his entire career

He never successfully carried the scoring load like Kobe

And in general, passing ability is less important than scoring ability and the way a player scores

So Kobe was better at the more important category
So in other words, kobe was more effective at being a ballhog. Got it. :rolleyes:

[3ba11]

So in other words, kobe was more effective at being a ballhog. Got it. :rolleyes:


Kobe was much better than Magic at the most important category in the game - scoring

[Vino24]

MJ literally needed Magic to get aids and Bird to break his back to have a chance

[Axe]

Kobe was much better than Magic at the most important category in the game - scoring
21.5 ppg on 64.8 ts in 1980 finals > 15.6 ppg on 41.1 ts in 2000 finals

:kobe:

[3ba11]

21.5 ppg on 64.8 ts in 1980 finals > 15.6 ppg on 41.1 ts in 2000 finals

:kobe:


Pitting Magic's best vs Kobe's worst isn't an argument

What if we downgraded Kareem to Pau and Worthy to Cokedom, I mean Odom... Can he win like Kobe?

[Axe]

Pitting Magic's best vs Kobe's worst isn't an argument

What if we downgraded Kareem to Pau and Worthy to Cokedom, I mean Odom... Can he win like Kobe?
Not his best to his worst. Rather both in their respective finals debuts, you imbecile.

[theman93]

Woah meltdowns everywhere.

Assists aren't the only way to make your teammates better. Your threat as a scorer can be used to make your teammates better through drawing double and triple teams and getting them open shots. Your ability as a scorer to draw fouls and make the other team have to substitute can create mismatches for your teammates. Your versatility as a scorer to not just be able to play on ball but also off ball can help your teammates get in rhythm and allows your coach to run a more variety of sets. I can go on with these examples, but scoring ability/threat/versatility can also be an extremely effective way to make your teammates better. And as for Jordan specifically, he possessed all of those and was still a very good passer on top of it. This also doesn't even get in to how you can make your teammates better on the defensive side of the ball, but I'll leave that for now.

Now, do I believe he was better at making his teammates better than Magic? No, but I don't believe he was far off. MJ went on to average 11.4 assists that series to Magic's 12.4 just to show he can. Similar to how he went on a three point barrage against Portland just to show that he can. All in all, the fact that this was even a debate is telling just how good he was at making teammates better.

[light]

Magic would be considered a better player if he could jump higher than 2 inches.

That's another reason why LeBron is considered better than Jordan. He's like a Magic Johnson that can do everything that Jordan can do athletically and even exceed what Jordan could do athletically. He can score like Jordan. He can close like Jordan. He can entertain like Jordan. He can dominate foes physically and mentally like Jordan. He can intimidate like Jordan. But he can also pass like Magic and see like Magic and lead like Magic and play 5 positions like Magic, things that MJ was not naturally good at.

LeBron is better than both of them by some degree.

[TheGoatest]

jordon made his teammates worse. That is a fact.

Exhibit A:

7 players on the 1993-94 Chicago Bulls had career high ppg seasons that exact season
2 players on the 1993-94 Chicago Bulls instantly became first time all-stars

There was one player on the Chicago Bulls who was the glue, who indeed made all of his teammates better, including jordon himself. His name was The Great Scott Pippen.

[3ba11]

Not his best to his worst. Rather both in their respective finals debuts, you imbecile.


Which happens to be Magic's best versus Kobe's worst

So you lose

Kobe is clearly better

[3ba11]

jordon made his teammates worse. That is a fact.

Exhibit A:

7 players on the 1993-94 Chicago Bulls had career high ppg seasons that exact season
2 players on the 1993-94 Chicago Bulls instantly became first time all-stars

There was one player on the Chicago Bulls who was the glue, who indeed made all of his teammates better, including jordon himself. His name was The Great Scott Pippen.


Pippen's career high in ppg + apg was 1992

That's when his 21.0 and 7.0 was greater than his 22.0 and 5.6 in 1994.

Ultimately, everyone played near their career high (capacity) alongside Jordan, while most guys play far below their career highs (capacity) alongside Lebron's ball-dominance.. Jordan's skillset doesn't turn guys into spot-up shooter, while Lebron's does... Jordan's superior brand of ball explains why he won more with weaker casts (no 3rd all-star)

[Johnny32]

Which happens to be Magic's best versus Kobe's worst

So you lose

Kobe is clearly better

1987, dumbass

[Axe]

Which happens to be Magic's best versus Kobe's worst

So you lose

Kobe is clearly better
So? Who do you think is older by the time they first went to the finals?