Draymond discusses Melo vs KD as scorers.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/LkPAoG4EV8A


Melo is one of those people who will always be more respected by basketball players than fans who determine how good people are by a formula. Dray, Kobe, KD, and a lot of the “student of the game” types always seem to be over the top in the respect for his skill set. The tough shot, well rounded, clutch one on one types like he and Kobe tend to shoot worse from the field which limits stat based fan appreciation at times but actual basketball players seem to love them.

That said…I thiiiiiink I might remember Draymond saying KD was the goat scorer but I’m not gonna flatly say he did till I look into it.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/yg-B1RCAviQ

[FultzNationRISE]

https://youtu.be/LkPAoG4EV8A


Melo is one of those people who will always be more respected by basketball players than fans who determine how good people are by a formula. Dray, Kobe, KD, and a lot of the “student of the game” types always seem to be over the top in the respect for his skill set. The tough shot, well rounded, clutch one on one types like he and Kobe tend to shoot worse from the field which limits stat based fan appreciation at times but actual basketball players seem to love them.

That said…I thiiiiiink I might remember Draymond saying KD was the goat scorer but I’m not gonna flatly say he did till I look into it.

Sure, from an individual defender’s perspective if a guy shoots 42% on 25 shots, it means he still embarrassed you plenty of times.

In the larger team-vs-team context, assuming most of those shots arent threes, it’s not really that productive compared to better shots other guys could have taken.

Dray is a proud defender, and Kobe/Durant were proud scorers. Ofc theyll pump up Melo bc it makes themselves look better when they stop him (Dray) or have similar performances (Kobe and KD).

But if youre not invested that way it’s clear to see the limited value of a guy who’s only skillset is volume isos on mediocre efficiency.

[Kblaze8855]

None of that such and such points on whatever shooting is what basketball players mean when they talk scoring. That’s what people who have no other way to judge it talk. The people in question talk about strength, touch, footwork, agility, balance, range and making them think and work hard. KD had a story on how Melo just left him confused. He was too strong to play one way and too quick to play another but still had touch. They are talking about the act of defending someone not whatever numbers result. I’ve never heard any of them use how many points he scored to make the case. That’s a fan thing.

Kinda like Reggie or a Steph. People don’t talk about whatever they scored so much as how hard having to guard them is. Difference there being Steph was hard to cover and scores 30 and Reggie was hard to cover and scored 18. Still worn out chasing them though.

[PeroAntic]

Game knows game, but statnerds will always whine about efficiency even though before the analytics era players were winning championships without focusing on their field goal percentages.

[FKAri]

Game knows game, but statnerds will always whine about efficiency even though before the analytics era players were winning championships without focusing on their field goal percentages.

People were winning wars with bows and arrows at one point too. Doesn't mean it'd work today. It's not just for funsies that every team in the league is using analytics. Don't need to be an NBA player or a statnerd to know that Carmelo was a great scorer. Especially how his scoring was more resilient vs physical defenses.

[Kblaze8855]

. It's not just for funsies that every team in the league is using analytics.


Every team in the league sends scouts to watch people play. That isn’t an argument either way. They’re billion dollar organizations. They all have someone doing everything. I bet a couple have witch doctors throwing chicken bones.

[FultzNationRISE]

None of that such and such points on whatever shooting is what basketball players mean when they talk scoring. That’s what people who have no other way to judge it talk. The people in question talk about strength, touch, footwork, agility, balance, range and making them think and work hard. KD had a story on how Melo just left him confused. He was too strong to play one way and too quick to play another but still had touch. They are talking about the act of defending someone not whatever numbers result. I’ve never heard any of them use how many points he scored to make the case. That’s a fan thing.

Kinda like Reggie or a Steph. People don’t talk about whatever they scored so much as how hard having to guard them is. Difference there being Steph was hard to cover and scores 30 and Reggie was hard to cover and scored 18. Still worn out chasing them though.

No doubt. Im just saying, where they rank guys vs where fans rank guys clearly is based on different values, not different evaluations of a common priority. Players are generally judging by how hard it is to stop a guy 1 on 1. Fans care more about whether the guy helps you win or not.

[Kblaze8855]

I suspect playing with Wade and Anthony Davis types instead of aging AI and 40 minutes of Amare makes him “help you win” a lot more. But fans rarely care why anything happens just that it did or did not.

[FultzNationRISE]

I suspect playing with Wade and Anthony Davis types instead of aging AI and 40 minutes of Amare makes him “help you win” a lot more. But fans rarely care why anything happens just that it did or did not.


I would say elite defense, playmaking, and scoring efficiency wrapped up in a 25 ppg guy helps you win a lot more than a guy who scores 25 and does none of that.

We gonna sit here and compare Melo's impact with Lebron!? Is that it?? Are we really going THERE...!?


I am going to allow the benefit of the doubt that you are enjoying MULTIPLE pre-dinner cocktails at the moment.

[3ba11]

Melo's game always wowed fellow hoopers.

Listen to Lenny Cooke's buddies clowning him over Melo:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r38IXKGlfSA&t=35m05s

[Kblaze8855]

The difference between Lebron and Melo obviously does exist. But it isn’t such that Lebron wins anything that matters on Melos teams in their primes. Just be a matter of precisely how far short they fell. I’d say a healthy prime Melo in Lebron place his entire career? Maybe 1 ring instead of 4. 2 if Wade had more left than he showed in 2012 which is conceivable.

I also doubt he makes the 07 finals. But swap the two on every team? I’d say Melo has a ring or two to Lebrons none until maybe OKC Bron has near prime Westbrook and George. Lebron isn’t winning with Billups, Camby, and Kmart…or the Knick squads unless Amare stayed healthy.

[fsvr54]

Melo is overrated

[FultzNationRISE]

The difference between Lebron and Melo obviously does exist. But it isn’t such that Lebron wins anything that matters on Melos teams in their primes. Just be a matter of precisely how far short they fell. I’d say a healthy prime Melo in Lebron place his entire career? Maybe 1 ring instead of 4. 2 if Wade had more left than he showed in 2012 which is conceivable.

I also doubt he makes the 07 finals. But swap the two on every team? I’d say Melo has a ring or two to Lebrons none until maybe OKC Bron has near prime Westbrook and George. Lebron isn’t winning with Billups, Camby, and Kmart…or the Knick squads unless Amare stayed healthy.


Oh helllll yeah he's winning a chip with that team.

They also had Birdman and Nene in the rotation, shooters like JR and Kleiza, hustle/defense guys like Carter and Renaldo Balkman. That was a squad. Plus a HOF coach in George Karl. That was the one year Melo got to a conference finals. Lebron EASILY wins a trophy with that team. Not even being a homer.

And of course I'm not saying Lebron wins a title on those Knick teams. But he gets you more wins, and closer to winning a chip than Carmelo does.

And Melo winning a chip on any of Bron's teams is a HARD disagree. The Heat lose significant ball movement and defensive versatility, which were their staples. And obviously there's zero chance he wins in 16 or 20 in place of LBJ.

[Gohan]

Sure, from an individual defender’s perspective if a guy shoots 42% on 25 shots, it means he still embarrassed you plenty of times.

In the larger team-vs-team context, assuming most of those shots arent threes, it’s not really that productive compared to better shots other guys could have taken.

Dray is a proud defender, and Kobe/Durant were proud scorers. Ofc theyll pump up Melo bc it makes themselves look better when they stop him (Dray) or have similar performances (Kobe and KD).

But if youre not invested that way it’s clear to see the limited value of a guy who’s only skillset is volume isos on mediocre efficiency.

It doesnt matter how many times someone tells you, you still wont get it. Pretending you know more than the actual players that devoted their whole life to basketball

[FultzNationRISE]

It doesnt matter how many times someone tells you, you still wont get it. Pretending you know more than the actual players that devoted their whole life to basketball

You wanna know the truth, Gohan? The real, god's honest truth, from one ISHer to another?

If Draymond and KD were anything close to average height?? Myself and a lot of other people here would destroy either of them 1 on 1, pretty easily.

That's not even kap.

[Kblaze8855]

Lebron has shown nothing to suggest he’s gonna win a bunch of titles with no other stars. Billups wasn’t any better than mildly washed Wade and none of those others were Bosh…and he would have to go through a 65 win Laker team to even make the finals. You can call out Wade for some of his playoff performances but it’s not like Billups wasn’t having something like 12ppg 33% shooting series in his prime. Billips is roughly washed Wade and Bosh laps most of Melos help.

Lebron needed to be peak Lebron in 13/16 and to still be elite in 20. 2011 Wade and Melo plus Bosh? The Melo who won like 55 games with Jr Smith and good vets due to retire? The 2011 team didn’t require anyone as good as Lebron to win. Even with the shit depth and horde of useless old names that team could have won with Glen Rice in Lebron place. They played a mile below their potential.

Beating a Bulls team that won off grit and leaning on Rose down the stretch being their peak that year was a joke. They didn’t have steady chemistry till 2013.

Melo had a lower ceiling obviously but that heat team failing to mesh hurts the “Lebron just makes you win” argument.

He makes a team that gives itself over to him win if it also has enough talent to cover for chemistry issues but that “Your turn my turn” standing around shit doesn’t go much worse with Melo.

Let Melo start like 8-9 with that team then lose in the playoffs people would act like Melo was formed from a 6’8” pile of medical waste from a cancer center.

Fact is a lot of Lebron teams have been just a liiiittle worse than they should be. Melo couldn’t make 4 of his teams win…but Lebron doesn’t make his teams into champions either. He makes teams that should win play well enough to pull it off…at times. He can make a bad team ok to good. But he’s not doing shit with Melos teams.

And I doubt he thinks he would either. If he felt teams like those could win with him he wouldn’t leave so many of them.

[FultzNationRISE]

Look, I dont wanna see anything bad happen to any fellow ISHers, so just do me a favor and DONT get behind the wheel tonight. Thats all I ask.

If you get pulled over a cop might ask your opinion of Lebron, and if you give that one ^ hes gonna immediately slap a felony DWI on you. No breathalyzer necessary.

I dont wanna see it happen.

[Spurs m8]

Why has this donkey started talking so much?

I couldn't give a single fvck on his opinion on literally anything....over glorified goon

Literally nothing without 2 all time great shooters and a third max or near max player

[FultzNationRISE]

Why has this donkey started talking so much?

I couldn't give a single fvck on his opinion on literally anything....over glorified goon

Literally nothing without 2 all time great shooters and a third max or near max player


Because he does a podcast.

[Kblaze8855]

Why has this donkey started talking so much?

I couldn't give a single fvck on his opinion on literally anything....over glorified goon

Literally nothing without 2 all time great shooters and a third max or near max player



And yet it seems everyone who is around him and several other players consider him among the smartest players they ever met. Off the top of my head I can think of 4 I’ve heard that from one of them being Steph Curry. And it started well before the warriors were good. This is from his first summer league after a game he went only 1-5:




"His basketball IQ is far beyond any rookie I have ever seen come into this league," said assistant coach Pete Myers (https://www.sfgate.com/search/?action=search&channel=warriors&inlineLink=1&searchindex=solr&query=%22Pete+Myers%22), who played nine seasons and has been a coach or scout in the league since 1999. "He knows himself, he has a mental toughness and a physical competitiveness. It's going to be hard to keep him off the floor."



I think Draymond is another of the guys basketball people see as very different than fans. Fans talk triple single and being a loud mouth then I listen to two nba players who never played with him on a podcast saying they went from thinking he wouldnt last in the league because he didn’t have any particular skill to fall back on to getting on the floor and realizing he was the smartest player in the league.

Coaches(this example being Pop) always seem to marvel at his understanding:


"When you say what’s a natural affinity? Understanding spatial arrangements, being able to do work early, understanding angles and distances, having the desire to want to stop an opponent, but at the same time understand how that’s done with wisdom," Popovich said. "It’s not with reaching or blazing speed, it's about position and some people understand their body position better than others."

Pop talking about why his defensive impact is special. Coaches and players talk like that but people see him left open for a shot and actually believe the coaches don’t respect his game as if not choosing not to prioritize stopping a bad shooter from shooting means actual basketball people think he can’t play. They think he can’t shoot. Fans think that means he can’t play. Nobody in the game does.

He does things people who don’t know what they’re seeing can’t appreciate. I’d say he’s a decent measuring stick along the lines of a Dennis Rodman or even old non scoring Duncan to see if the people talking are serious fans.

Having such respect from people while being such a jackass is hard to pull off.

[Kblaze8855]

Look, I dont wanna see anything bad happen to any fellow ISHers, so just do me a favor and DONT get behind the wheel tonight. Thats all I ask.

If you get pulled over a cop might ask your opinion of Lebron, and if you give that one ^ hes gonna immediately slap a felony DWI on you. No breathalyzer necessary.

I dont wanna see it happen.


If I get arrested for saying Lebron wouldn’t win on teams that shouldn’t be able to win after 20 years of evidence he doesn’t I’d sue and win.

[nayte]

If I get arrested for saying Lebron wouldn’t win on teams that shouldn’t be able to win after 20 years of evidence he doesn’t I’d sue and win.

Might be wrong but if that guy gave up his LeBron thing for a bit he probs be a decent poster

[FilmyCogTurner]

Look, I dont wanna see anything bad happen to any fellow ISHers, so just do me a favor and DONT get behind the wheel tonight. Thats all I ask.

If you get pulled over a cop might ask your opinion of Lebron, and if you give that one ^ hes gonna immediately slap a felony DWI on you. No breathalyzer necessary.

I dont wanna see it happen.

Hey man it's okay to admit that you don't want this conversation :roll:

[FultzNationRISE]

Might be wrong but if that guy gave up his LeBron thing for a bit he probs be a decent poster


Showing appropriate reverence and respect for a King, the greatest champion who ever lived, not to mention one so amply blessed in the loins, is "having a Lebron thing?"

Nice reach there buddy :oldlol:

[999Guy]

LeBron and Carmelo having the same team level impact at a glance is looney town shit that would be like an exorcism to even get into. Basic understanding and view on basketball would have to get fundamentally changed to even go there. It would excruciating for all parties but most importantly me to go there so don’t feel like getting into even the idea of Melo filling void of a high IQ Power Point Guard with literal mythic god athleticism.

But ****ing Kevin Durant as a “student of the game type” made me laugh outloud.

What has that dummy ever done on or off court to think he is a student of shit, in any level in anything ever?

He dumbed his way out of playing next to THE two offensive lead guards of the era next to the only guy I could honestly assume is dumber in Kyrie.

KD is almost JR Smith level stupid on view on basketball. I remember he JUST said something tellingly retarded about if he was hot, his teammates have to ante up on defense while he doesn’t pass them the ball at all, ever until he isn’t hot anymore.

Just blatantly dumb shit that only a guy with the most shallow understanding of the game would ever utter.

A guy Steve Kerr had to beg to pass to the likes of Klay Thompson and Stephen Curry while wide open in a playoff series is a student of the game. UGH…

[Kblaze8855]

LeBron and Carmelo having the same team level impact at a glance is looney town shit that would be like an exorcism to even get into.

Who said they did?

I said the difference isn’t such that he wins on the teams prime Melo lost on and that Lebron has had a team so overwhelmingly talented prime Melo could win as Wades likely second option. 2010 Melo joins prime Wade and Bosh they would have been a sensation that was favored to win too. Just by less.

[light]

I don't understand how KD's career high is only 55 points.

KD's excuse is that players that score 60 face defenses that don't adjust to them, but that defenses adjust to him, so that's why he doesn't score 60. Total BS, right?

Durant's explanation seems to suggest that he's the one that doesn't adjust to adjusting defenses and that he basically lets the defense win.

[DMAVS41]

Definitely some truth to this, but scoring efficiency matters a lot at the individual and team level if a player is using up a lot of possessions and not contributing a ton in other ways or making life super easy for teammates off the ball or something.

Melo is a bit odd here because it isn't like he was horribly inefficient or something...and judging him on winning given his help is unfair.

However, I don't think he was good enough to be the clear best player on a title winning team. Maybe he wins in 2011 in place of Lebron, but Wade would have had to be the best player on that team for that to happen.

[DMAVS41]

I’d say a healthy prime Melo in Lebron place his entire career? Maybe 1 ring instead of 4. 2 if Wade had more left than he showed in 2012 which is conceivable.

12 would be really tough. The Heat were on the verge against the Celtics. Lebron played at a level in that series that Melo really wasn't capable of in terms of overall impact imo...and even with that...they needed a true masterpiece game from Lebron to get that series to 7.

I think most likely Melo ends with 0 rings but makes the finals a couple times maybe and is known as a much better player.

[LeGoat4Life]

Oh helllll yeah he's winning a chip with that team.

They also had Birdman and Nene in the rotation, shooters like JR and Kleiza, hustle/defense guys like Carter and Renaldo Balkman. That was a squad. Plus a HOF coach in George Karl. That was the one year Melo got to a conference finals. Lebron EASILY wins a trophy with that team. Not even being a homer.


And of course I'm not saying Lebron wins a title on those Knick teams. But he gets you more wins, and closer to winning a chip than Carmelo does.

And Melo winning a chip on any of Bron's teams is a HARD disagree. The Heat lose significant ball movement and defensive versatility, which were their staples. And obviously there's zero chance he wins in 16 or 20 in place of LBJ.

Lebron won 33 games with an all star team lolol

Melo made the playoff for years on Denver with a much weaker cast

Melo 3peats playing on that Miami team

Sit down boy

[Overdrive]

I think Draymond is another of the guys basketball people see as very different than fans. Fans talk triple single and being a loud mouth then I listen to two nba players who never played with him on a podcast saying they went from thinking he wouldnt last in the league because he didn’t have any particular skill to fall back on to getting on the floor and realizing he was the smartest player in the league.


This actually takes away from Chris' statement although I think he's pretty right in his assessment that fans are on a regular basis more interested in teamwins. The missjudgingment of Dray by fans is kinda weird in that aspect that he is a centerpeace in team success. Yes, he's absolutely useless on a team without a star, but he kills if you pair him with guys like Curry, Reggie, Ray, Bird, Jordan etc. Guys who will score alot but don't need the ball in their hands past half court, guys who'll run off ball sets or thrive in the triple threat. Dray will find them and create offense for them while playing ATG defense.



No doubt. Im just saying, where they rank guys vs where fans rank guys clearly is based on different values, not different evaluations of a common priority. Players are generally judging by how hard it is to stop a guy 1 on 1. Fans care more about whether the guy helps you win or not.

Another aspect is if they ever played with the guy they praise. Alot of praise calms down once they play with a guy, see his idiosyncracies and how they're detrimental to win games or titles.

[Phoenix]

Definitely some truth to this, but scoring efficiency matters a lot at the individual and team level if a player is using up a lot of possessions and not contributing a ton in other ways or making life super easy for teammates off the ball or something.

Melo is a bit odd here because it isn't like he was horribly inefficient or something...and judging him on winning given his help is unfair.

However, I don't think he was good enough to be the clear best player on a title winning team. Maybe he wins in 2011 in place of Lebron, but Wade would have had to be the best player on that team for that to happen.

Melo and Wade had less redundancy in their games, so the latter would have had to take less of a step back and literally tell Lebron 'take the keys, the team is yours now' for them to win. Bosh can probably play closer to his Raptors game as well. In the finals, if Wade plays at least as well as he did I'm confident saying Melo produces the scoring punch that Lebron didn't from games 4-6 and the final result is different. That would have been their one title though, because 2011 was the last year Wade was really 'D-Wade' and Melo wouldn't have won in 2012 or 2013 with those versions of Wade and Bosh. They probably don't even get to the finals those years( and especially 2014).

[DMAVS41]

Melo and Wade had less redundancy in their games, so the latter would have had to take less of a step back and literally tell Lebron 'take the keys, the team is yours now' for them to win. Bosh can probably play closer to his Raptors game as well. In the finals, if Wade plays at least as well as he did I'm confident saying Melo produces the scoring punch that Lebron didn't from games 4-6 and the final result is different. That would have been their one title though, because 2011 was the last year Wade was really 'D-Wade' and Melo wouldn't have won in 2012 or 2013 with those versions of Wade and Bosh. They probably don't even get to the finals those years( and especially 2014).

Yea...given how Lebron played...the offense likely would have been better. However, the Mavs really keying in on Wade or Melo would have made really tough on whichever one, likely Wade, the Mavs wanted to target the most with their defense. It isn't like Wade would have been able to do what he did while facing more defensive attention from the Mavs.

In addition, the Heat's defense would be worse without Lebron in real ways...and I'm not sure how they are stopping Dirk / Terry in late game situations...which likely would be needed for the Heat to win that series as I don't see any version of those games playing out that aren't close.

I'd give the Heat like a 35 to 40 percent chance in the 11 finals with Melo.

The rest of the years in place of Lebron, I agree...I don't really see how they are winning any titles with a player in Melo that is significantly worse than Lebron during those years.

[999Guy]

Definitely some truth to this, but scoring efficiency matters a lot at the individual and team level if a player is using up a lot of possessions and not contributing a ton in other ways or making life super easy for teammates off the ball or something.

Melo is a bit odd here because it isn't like he was horribly inefficient or something...and judging him on winning given his help is unfair.

However, I don't think he was good enough to be the clear best player on a title winning team. Maybe he wins in 2011 in place of Lebron, but Wade would have had to be the best player on that team for that to happen.

Truth to what? It came down to a foul call, and if he cares about his Olympic Medal or NBA titles more.

Draymond did almost zero thought on basketball ability in this comparison. Don’t care how smart he is, he used the dumbest parts of his brain to say this nonsense.

[999Guy]

This idea that LeBron would not win with the 09 Nuggets really bothers me.

We are talking a team that were pretty competitive against the Lakers with Melo, Meloing with his mediocre high volume, low efficiency, no intangible play style.

Old LeBron had the old JR Smith who couldn’t even dunk in half court anymore on fire with just pure timing on skip passes.

Old LeBron showed more synergy with basically retired Deron Williams than Melo had with peak Billups.

It’s such an unrealistic way of seeing basketball to think guys who are polar opposite on substance(Defense, IQ, passing, leadership) would have anywhere near the same team results, especially on a team in the 09 Nuggets, that was actually good with talent.

The 09 Nuggets would be unrecognizable with 09 LeBron. To think teams would automatically be hard-capped at some level of play is absurd. And I’m only really mentioning offense.

Oh yeah, another former Nugget that had an old-ass career revival with LeBron, Birdman Anderson, who even into the playoffs, would just not miss catch and finish plays next to LeBron. Absurd efficiency while way out of his athletic prime.

All the untapped talent LeBron would tap into. You put him next to a true savant with a really athletic bruiser roll game in Nene, and the single best Point Guard skill set imaginable to fit with him in Billups, outside of like, Stephen Curry, or Terry Porter or some smart gunner from 3.

And the result is automatically not being able to beat LA, who just had no answer for him athletically with Ariza/Kobe/Sasha who are simultaneously slower and weaker than him. With who Odom sealing off the paint?

The 09 Nuggets likely reach all-time offensive heights because like I said, LeBron would make guys like Jr Smith, Andersen, Nene, and Billups almost unrecognizable with his creation game.

Jones/LeBron/JR for size and dominant defense on the wings which opens up way more defensive schemes. They ****ing blow that playoff season apart. LeBron’s done more with less.


And PS 09 LeBron had the most outrageously dominant playoff ever statistically. It’s so outrageous it’s easy to do the human nature thing of, “well he couldn’t be that good, has to be overrated”, no he ****ing was. He was just as outrageous in 2010 until he ran into KG.

[warriorfan]

This idea that LeBron would not win with the 09 Nuggets really bothers me.

We are talking a team that were pretty competitive against the Lakers with Melo, Meloing with his mediocre high volume, low efficiency, no intangible play style.

Old LeBron had the old JR Smith who couldn’t even dunk in half court anymore on fire with just pure timing on skip passes.

Old LeBron showed more synergy with basically retired Deron Williams than Melo had with peak Billups.

It’s such an unrealistic way of seeing basketball to think guys who are polar opposite on substance(Defense, IQ, passing, leadership) would have anywhere near the same team results, especially on a team in the 09 Nuggets, that was actually good with talent.

The 09 Nuggets would be unrecognizable with 09 LeBron. To think teams would automatically be hard-capped at some level of play is absurd. And I’m only really mentioning offense.

Oh yeah, another former Nugget that had an old-ass career revival with LeBron, Birdman Anderson, who even into the playoffs, would just not miss catch and finish plays next to LeBron. Absurd efficiency while way out of his athletic prime.

All the untapped talent LeBron would tap into. You put him next to a true savant with a really athletic bruiser roll game in Nene, and the single best Point Guard skill set imaginable to fit with him in Billups, outside of like, Stephen Curry, or Terry Porter or some smart gunner from 3.

And the result is automatically not being able to beat LA, who just had no answer for him athletically with Ariza/Kobe/Sasha who are simultaneously slower and weaker than him. With who Odom sealing off the paint?

The 09 Nuggets likely reach all-time offensive heights because like I said, LeBron would make guys like Jr Smith, Andersen, Nene, and Billups almost unrecognizable with his creation game.

Jones/LeBron/JR for size and dominant defense on the wings which opens up way more defensive schemes. They ****ing blow that playoff season apart. LeBron’s done more with less.


And PS 09 LeBron had the most outrageously dominant playoff ever statistically. It’s so outrageous it’s easy to do the human nature thing of, “well he couldn’t be that good, has to be overrated”, no he ****ing was. He was just as outrageous in 2010 until he ran into KG.

He was outrageous until he quit on his team and faked an elbow injury and was shooting free throws left handed :lol

No damage was ever found during x rays and mri. :oldlol:
https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/390315-lebron-james-phantom-elbow-injury.amp.html

[sdot_thadon]

I think that guys who play respect the degree of difficulty plays more because they understand how hard it is to take and make those shots. Alot of us fans see it as if you can make a better play why not do so? Numbers can never be the end all argument but they paint pretty clear pictures in these cases imo.

[sdot_thadon]

He was outrageous until he quit on his team and faked an elbow injury and was shooting free throws left handed :lol

No damage was ever found during x rays and mri. :oldlol:
https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/390315-lebron-james-phantom-elbow-injury.amp.html

And what kind of rehab did you prescribe for him Dr. Rando netguy?

[warriorfan]

And what kind of rehab did you prescribe for him Dr. Rando netguy?

Nothing at all because there was literally no injury


“I don’t honestly know what is going on,” said James, who had an X-ray and an MRI on the elbow on Monday that showed no structural damage.
.


http://lh5.ggpht.com/_YODg65nll_o/S9fppJNxXLI/AAAAAAACcVg/xSHpOdWCPJI/s600/lebron_james_nba_100427_cle-vs-chi-15-game-5.jpg

https://www.slamonline.com/nba/lebron-james-mysterious-elbow-injury/

Fume more bro :lol

[Kblaze8855]

This idea that LeBron would not win with the 09 Nuggets really bothers me.
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If you didn’t know he lost with the best teammate he ever had(Prime Wade who was pretty much as good as he was) you would probably be bothered by the idea he’d lose with him too. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. The 09 Nuggets wouldn’t be the most talent he ever lost with and the 09 Lakers would be among the best team he ever played. It’s hardly out of the question. It’s just Lebron plus a good but not amazing team.

Equal(Better) players have lost with more talent vs worse teams than they would have to take out to win in 09.

[999Guy]

If you didn’t know he lost with the best teammate he ever had(Prime Wade who was pretty much as good as he was) you would probably be bothered by the idea he’d lose with him too. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. The 09 Nuggets wouldn’t be the most talent he ever lost with and the 09 Lakers would be among the best team he ever played. It’s hardly out of the question. It’s just Lebron plus a good but not amazing team.

Equal(Better) players have lost with more talent vs worse teams than they would have to take out to win in 09.

What is talent? Is it names? Or is it actual quality of play?

The Miami Heat had more “talent”(which again to me sounds like name recognition and nothing else) than the 13 Spurs who outplayed them and the 14 Spurs who raped them.

I mean, think about what you are saying. You using the idea LeBron played on teams that lost with a lot of “talent” to judge him instead of the teams but while treating LeBron like a career-long constant.

No differences across years or situations, but yet defining him by isolated team results. Do you understand how dumb that is? If LeBron is this constant in your mind(I mean the idea of 09 LeBron and 11 LeBron being that same is just pathetic to me), shouldn’t his teams be the critique of the way they’re built?

Your logic, if I could even call it that, is so fragile, can it survive this question:
Why did LeBron win twice with a destroyed Wade but lose with one in his prime? And why would you be able to assume other results when apparently your talent philosophy on team level doesn’t even hold up past the one year you judge it.

My point is simple and much less convoluted and logical than all that. LeBron is much better for a basketball team than Melo, and it’s tangible observable thing, not just a lousy assumption, he had near-retired Birdman Andersen shooting at 80% from the field in 2013….Lol. Which again, is the answer to my question about why LeBron would win in 2013, but lose in 2011 despite Wade dominating and sucking. Lol. ****ing actual reality blends into this argument to completely prove my point. LeBron elevates more with the actual talent and depth he had on the Cavs and the talent that was on the 09 Nuggets.

And old JR shooting like 50% from 3.

Nene Hilario is better than Tristan Thompson at everything on the court. Hell he’d be the best center LeBron played with.

But I know you’re logic-proof already. You got a shitty emotional hunch and you’ll do anything to flail and grasp onto it.

I’m done here, cause I could cross-examine reality and people horseshit all day but you are literally, literally 3ball level with being thinking proof, spamming, and sniping little quotes instead of confronting critical thought. Which I know you’ll do again because how else would someone justify thinking peak LeBron of all people can’t tilt a close playoff series on a team he fits perfectly when replacing a dud pseudo-star.

[Kblaze8855]

Reading that meandering mess was like a road trip to nowhere. This must be what people feel like when I write one of those stream of consciousness posts about nothing that end abruptly with no real point being made. I’m rarely on this end of one.

Unbelievably long story short….I don’t think it’s a given Lebron wins with a good team just because he’s Lebron because I’ve seen him not win with enough good teams to know that. He’s had about 9-10 really good teams and has won quite a bit less than that.

Youre free to take issue with it. I’m free to largely disregard your opinion. The nuggets were never a team to just assume Lebron wins in place of Melo. Just weren’t that good. Not “Obviously gonna win if healthy” good. Few lineups are.