I feel like Jrue vs Marcus Smart shouldn’t be a question but somehow it is.

[Kblaze8855]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2208191753050354.jpeg









People are legit arguing about it.

That feels like something we should all be able to come together on. Any of you taking Smart over Holiday?

[SouBeachTalents]

This is a ridiculous comparison :lol Jrue is a legit all-star caliber player, Smart is a good role player, they’re on totally different tiers. And lol at that response, talk about the stereotypical brain dead casual take you’d hear on First Take.

Blaze, why is it that the NBA has the worst quality of discussion and dumbest fanbase in sports? The NFL is a lot more popular here so you can’t just blame popularity.

[Derka]

I'm a Celtics fan to my core, I actually like Marcus Smart....and I'm taking Jrue.

[FultzNationRISE]

I think it’s a pretty fair comparison personally. Smart is an ideal point guard if you have other scorers. He’s competent offensively, but doesnt need to rely on scoring to impact the game. As far as I can tell he and Holiday are pretty similar. Maybe it’s because I dont know their scoring averages and Holliday has an advantage that people think this is some egregious comparison. But I dont think you really wanna rely on Jrue scoring a big share of your points anyway. So when it comes to like, the necessary aspects of their roles... I dont see much separation in impact.

[FultzNationRISE]

This is a ridiculous comparison :lol Jrue is a legit all-star caliber player, Smart is a good role player, they’re on totally different tiers. And lol at that response, talk about the stereotypical brain dead casual take you’d hear on First Take.

Blaze, why is it that the NBA has the worst quality of discussion and dumbest fanbase in sports? The NFL is a lot more popular here so you can’t just blame popularity.


NFL fans dont know shit either :lol

Most of them literally dont realize a position besides quarterback exists. And most think you should select a quarterback based on his face and whether he has a good “franchise face” and so on. Mainly because it’s what the media peddles to them as “analysis.”

Casual NFL discussions are anything but sophisticated. Always have been.

[Kblaze8855]

This is a ridiculous comparison :lol Jrue is a legit all-star caliber player, Smart is a good role player, they’re on totally different tiers. And lol at that response, talk about the stereotypical brain dead casual take you’d hear on First Take.

Blaze, why is it that the NBA has the worst quality of discussion and dumbest fanbase in sports? The NFL is a lot more popular here so you can’t just blame popularity.


it probably is fans being so heavily influenced by what has become of sports media in the TV age. 30-40 years ago the sports coverage was less fighting and more…talk. Explaining. They didn’t have people yelling just to yell. You might get a “chalk talk” segment that was just Pat Riley or Hubie Brown taking an actual piece of chalk and drawing up pet plays…then commercials…then some legend gives his take on what’s going on…an announcer who is not trying to make it about himself guides it but stays out of the way. You might get Oscar and some other old guy explain what tactics they might want to use. It wasn’t all furthering the various agendas and setting you up for the post game where you can set up for tomorrows show and tease topics of debate.

These people were talking basketball with the understanding that anyone who watched a basketball show wanted to hear them do that.

Now it’s all fluff pieces, legacy shaping, and promos/teasers about what Stephen A, Skip, or whoever might have to say tomorrow. The announcers want to be stars and not just appreciate stars.

I saw some clip posted were skip Bayless took issue with Derek Fisher having Steph Curry on a short list with guys like Jordan and Duncan and Kobe and whoever else maybe LeBron I don’t know…a list of guys who just make a franchise a success. And Skip was outraged talking about how can he be next to Duncan or Kobe because they would never be part of recruiting KD to come save them.

that’s what passes for basketball discussion. It doesn’t really have anything to do with basketball but it upsets people to hear and then we talk about it. Not wanting to let it succeed is the entire reason I did not make a topic about it when I saw it.

But you get on here and protest as we might is the exact same thing. It’s people who hate what sports talk has become engaging in it themselves ranking players by bullshit like team jumping and manufactured character flaws because they either can’t talk ball or hate how open it all is to opinion and unknowable assumptions.

You can’t really prove most of this shit so we resort to character assassination and trying to rank players by who has the most unimpeachable story behind them. So we all become storytellers. We tell the story of six out of six as if nine other years didn’t happen. Idiots on here telling a story about playoff points in favor of LeBron as of playing better doesn’t reduce your number of playoff points because you play less games in sweeps and as if they didn’t add rounds and games to the playoffs making an all time ranking stupid.

It’s just a bunch of either disingenuous or stupid people shaping a story because an honest discussion of basketball is too nuanced for their liking.

We have been reduced to a society that wants to win arguments through soundbites and cherry picked facts that fit in a tweet.

And some of the people who complain the most about it will then go into the very next topic and say some bullshit about 1-9, 4-10, or Steph or Kobe not getting finals mvp for whatever years.

The media did do it…but the people were stupid enough to listen and shake their own arguments to fit the same standards so who is really to blame?

[post]

jrue made the all star team almost a decade ago

got a lot better since

and

crickets

[ralph_i_el]

Jrue is a much better scorer in the half court and is better at taking advantage of weak defenders. No question I'm taking him.

[FultzNationRISE]

It's really just a matter of how you wanna use a particular guy. Which is ofc a matter of preference.

Carmelo's a better half court scorer than Marion. If your strategy is to run a lot of midpost isos and really lean on a guy who can get his scoring numbers up, clearly Melo is the better fit. But there are definitely arguments for Marion (whom I would prefer) if you're taking a different approach.

Smart does everything I want my point guard to do, and I think he does have a little more 'fight' and a little more savvy in him than Holiday. So I dont really mind leaving Holiday's extra few points on the table, for the same reason I'd prefer to have Marion over Melo. For how I'd wanna see my team play, those guys are just better fits. But it's just up to each person's approach.

[Kblaze8855]

Im not positive Smart is flat out better to Jrue at anything. I’ve heard too many people in the nba call Jrue the best defender in the league. I’m thinking like…4 star guards have come out with that. Really different players too. I’m absolutely sure I’ve heard that from both KD and Dame. And I believe Iggy and maybe SGA? Now I have to look into this…

[Kblaze8855]

Paul George


"I think the toughest matchup for me has been Jrue...There's a lot of great defenders out there, but the one guy who gave me the hardest time is probably Jrue.



When posed the question of who was a better defender, Smart or Bucks guard Jrue Holiday, Atlanta Hawks forward Bogdan Bogdanovich had an easy answer:


https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1542944072549117952/2m-8M6u8_normal.jpg


(https://twitter.com/LeaderOfHorde?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweet embed%7Ctwterm%5E1523088151174033408%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ct wcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fpublish.twitter.com%2F%3Fque ry%3Dhttps3A2F2Ftwitter.com2FLeaderOfHorde2Fstatus 2F1523088151174033408widget%3DTweet)

@LeaderOfHorde


(https://twitter.com/LeaderOfHorde?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweet embed%7Ctwterm%5E1523088151174033408%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ct wcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fpublish.twitter.com%2F%3Fque ry%3Dhttps3A2F2Ftwitter.com2FLeaderOfHorde2Fstatus 2F1523088151174033408widget%3DTweet)

Jrue! https://t.co/MEhsmvqcQF










He’s the best defender in the league, one of the best defenders I’ve ever seen, and the best defender of his time,” Warriors forward Andre Iguodala (https://theathletic.com/player/nba/warriors/andre-iguodala/) said when asked about Holiday’s defense





“Jrue Holiday is solidified as probably the best defender in the league at the guard position. When we talk about defense, a lot of people really don’t understand what defense really means, you know?”
“For different positions, especially for the point guard position, they don’t get a lot of credit for fighting over screens. Especially now that they’re getting screened at half-court, guys running off of pin-downs.”


“So I feel like it’s a huge discrepancy between what the players think and the media thinks. We’re in there every day, we understand what a good possession of defense is, and we understand how these guys are undervalued and their perception goes a long way.”

^


Durant



Dame:



“To me, he’s the best defender in the league. Like, out of the guards, I think he’s the best defender.




Jrue might be the most respected defensive guard in the league….among players.

[dankok8]

Defensively it's kind of a wash but Jrue is a much better offensive player.

[TAZORAC]

Holiday is the better player, and if Middletn played, the BUCKS would have repeated

[FultzNationRISE]

For sure, I dont disagree Jrue is that guy on defense just like Smart is.

I dunno. I just really like Smart as a point guard. He’s very well balanced in terms of knowing when to take opportunities, but not force the issue when there are better options. I think he just has a bit more savvy than Jrue as a guy you trust to run the show. Thats just my feeling from watching them throughout the playoffs the last couple years. I havent like, studied the film or know anything about what the metrics say. And it’s not that I have any qualms about Holiday, moreso just that Ive been impressed with Smart.

Both of them probably fit better on their respective teams than the other would. I guess I just trust Smart with the ball slightly more, even if he’s not the better natural scorer. Just my gut feeling.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Im not positive Smart is flat out better to Jrue at anything. I’ve heard too many people in the nba call Jrue the best defender in the league. I’m thinking like…4 star guards have come out with that. Really different players too. I’m absolutely sure I’ve heard that from both KD and Dame. And I believe Iggy and maybe SGA? Now I have to look into this…

Smart is probably a better spot up shooter. Not flat out though.

[warriorfan]

This shouldn’t be a question.

[post]

a bit bizarre that durant says there is a huge discrepancy between media and players

when the media votes for the all defense team

and jrue made it 4 of the last 5 years

[Clifton]

People didn't really understand how good Jrue Holiday was for a while because he was always injured. (The idea that Anthony Davis had no help on New Orleans: he actually did; when Holiday and Davis both played, they were good; one or both of them was just always injured.)

You'd think winning a title (and also making the series-winning defensive play, if I remember right) would have changed all that, but I guess not. Because of his inconsistency he's not a no-brainer all-star, and even when he's on he's more subtle than eye-popping.

He's just a better player. If Smart has a case, it has to be on the merits of leadership and intangibles.

[GrayGoat]

It’s close but I also believe holiday has the edge. However had the Celtics won the chip people might view it differently.

[Full Court]

I admit that I'm a little biased on this one, because I'm a fan of Holiday and Smart is my second least favorite player in the league.

[fsvr54]

Smart will never be on New Orleans Jrue's level.

[post]

jrue could have a couple more all defense teams

and regardless of how many all stars at least a couple all nba teams

which if players were fully interested in backing holiday they would at least consider

that would add up to approximately

1 ring
6 all defense
2 all nba

at that point given the way the hall of fame works you could say if he retired today he could get in eventually

[PeroAntic]

Its not a bad comparison at all, it could go either way imo. Sure Jrue is a more skilled player but Smart's intangibles are underrated.

[Jasper]

Defensively it's kind of a wash but Jrue is a much better offensive player.

I feel as if Smart just gets into an offenders grill.

Jrue is 10x better cause he looks for weaknesses and strikes at any time. He is super strong , and what most people avoid talking
about is his pure stroke .
Coach Bud said he can shoot 2-15 and Bud still tells him keep shooting.

Green light all the way.

[Kblaze8855]

Smart is probably a better spot up shooter. Not flat out though.


Without looking up specific spot up vs off the dribble numbers I’d still say…I doubt it. Jrue last year shot better from 3 than Smart has from the field period in all but 2 of his 8 seasons. He shot 41 percent from 3 to smarts 33 last year. He might literally be better at everything in a broad sense. Not down to “Finishing left in traffic” specifics but broadly speaking? Handles, shooting, defense, and so on? Maybe.

[ralph_i_el]

I mean think about it...

For one of these guys, people have been begging him to shoot more for a decade

For one of these guys, people tolerate him shooting because he has to keep the defense honest

[iamgine]

This feels like a Wilt vs Russell thing

[Kblaze8855]

This feels like a Wilt vs Russell thing


I think most players in the NBA felt Russell was better which is probably opposite of what you mean.

[iamgine]

I think most players in the NBA felt Russell was better which is probably opposite of what you mean.

:biggums:

[imdaman99]

Jrue is a great defender but I've watched Westbrook torch him for years. Obviously he's washed now so he ain't doing much of that now.

[Kblaze8855]

:biggums:


They certainly seemed to. When Wilt was doing 50/27 only 9 players voted him mvp. 57 voted for Russell. And when you ask guys from that time in the years since a great many seem to have Russell as better. I don’t think theres much question who they respected more. The reasons can be argued but it is what it is. At one point the Lakers voted not to accept wilt on the team. Bet your life every team would have wanted Russell.

Philly Wilt I think it would have been Wilt over Bill as Bill was slowing down and in a player/coach role but prime for prime?

Im not sure Bill doesn’t take that vote.

[Real Men Wear Green]

It's close enough that I could make some argument belaboring the DPoY award. But it's not really worth arguing to me when we could be arguing about the 40th best player in the league versus the 45th or something. Being a Celtic fan I am compelled to defend Smart a bit so I will point out that the value is close enough that Stevens isn't going to call Milwaukee and try to figure out some way to trade Smart for Holiday as the potential upgrade is minor. You most likely don't win a game with holiday that you would have lost with Smart.