Allen Iverson: LeBron is the GOAT

[RRR3]

https://twitter.com/maskedinla/status/1565829013641183232?s=21&t=pZpXoa9QjVIRaYWKbMcuDw

[8Ball]

https://twitter.com/maskedinla/status/1565829013641183232?s=21&t=pZpXoa9QjVIRaYWKbMcuDw

I keep saying it.


As the years go by, it will just be consensus that Bron is the GOAT amongst all the players.

Shaq says the moment LeBron surpasses Kareem Bron will be the GOAT.

A lot of the old generation still hates on the new generation due to nostalgia. But the irony is, once Bron is retired, the old generation will embrace Bran as one of them and crown him.


They waiting say it, they all want to say it, and its become louder and louder since 2020.

[Kblaze8855]

Thats not exactly what he meant. He said Lebron is “The one”. What is cut out when this is posted some places is that he also said KD was “The one”. He’s just generally showing respect for a couple all timers.

[TheCorporation]

Thats not exactly what he meant. He said Lebron is “The one”. What is cut out when this is posted some places is that he also said KD was “The one”. He’s just generally showing respect for a couple all timers.

Nah, the fact that he mentioned Jordan was enough to get his point across. That's what made it obvious.

Well anyway, I've been telling you turds since about 2018 that LeBron was the GOAT. And then he proved it even more in 2020.

He is the GOAT. Period.

[1987_Lakers]

Gohan isn't gonna like this

[Gohan]

Gohan isn't gonna like this

I respect it coming from a top 10 player of all time. I dont agree with it though.

[3ba11]

I'm sure Iverson's money is running out and he's still a long way away from being able to access his safe fund...

so he's hoping to get on the Lebron team and payroll

If Lebron was so great, he would win and dominate more than Jordan, but instead he mostly loses with super-teams and can't defeat maximum defensive attention (can't carry the scoring load in Finals).

Since he can't carry the scoring load, he needs all-time scorers or producers at sidekick like AD, Wade or Kyrie and can't win with secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen.

[Axe]

I'm sure Iverson's money is running out and he's still a long way away from being able to access his safe fund...

so he's hoping to get on the Lebron team and payroll

If Lebron was so great, he would win and dominate more than Jordan, but instead he mostly loses with super-teams and can't defeat maximum defensive attention (can't carry the scoring load in Finals).

Since he can't carry the scoring load, he needs all-time scorers or producers at sidekick like AD, Wade or Kyrie and can't win with secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen.
1-9

[LeGoat4Life]

No Jones No Chip

[Spurs m8]

I'm sure Iverson's money is running out and he's still a long way away from being able to access his safe fund...

so he's hoping to get on the Lebron team and payroll

If Lebron was so great, he would win and dominate more than Jordan, but instead he mostly loses with super-teams and can't defeat maximum defensive attention (can't carry the scoring load in Finals).

Since he can't carry the scoring load, he needs all-time scorers or producers at sidekick like AD, Wade or Kyrie and can't win with secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen.

This

How does a GOAT lose mode often than not with multiple superteams?

Dude falls short in everything except longevity

[1987_Lakers]

This

How does a GOAT lose mode often than not with multiple superteams?

Dude falls short in everything except longevity

Reminds me of this guy who fell short.

https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818167/duncanmiss.gif

[HylianNightmare]

If he sticks around another 5 years he might actually win 6 rings

[Full Court]

Reminds me of this guy who fell short.

https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818167/duncanmiss.gif

Except that Duncan is ahead of Bronie in all time rankings. He's not as high as Wilt, but he's ahead of Bronie.

[8Ball]

Nah, the fact that he mentioned Jordan was enough to get his point across. That's what made it obvious.

Well anyway, I've been telling you turds since about 2018 that LeBron was the GOAT. And then he proved it even more in 2020.

He is the GOAT. Period.

Correct, he first mentions Jordan, but then says Bron is The One.

When he gets the scoring title the casuals will turn.

[8Ball]

Reminds me of this guy who fell short.

https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2818167/duncanmiss.gif

Bron hits the dagger in the next possession too. Ouch.

[TheMan]

If he sticks around another 5 years he might actually win 6 rings

Maybe, but most likely carried in his final rings like KAJ, he's days of being the best player on a title winning team are more likely over...

6 in 15 >>> 4 in 19 :confusedshrug:

[8Ball]

Maybe, but most likely carried in his final rings like KAJ, he's days of being the best player on a title winning team are more likely over...

6 in 15 >>> 4 in 19 :confusedshrug:

Those are team accomplishments which include 14 other players.

[HoopsNY]

I keep saying it.


As the years go by, it will just be consensus that Bron is the GOAT amongst all the players.

Shaq says the moment LeBron surpasses Kareem Bron will be the GOAT.

A lot of the old generation still hates on the new generation due to nostalgia. But the irony is, once Bron is retired, the old generation will embrace Bran as one of them and crown him.


They waiting say it, they all want to say it, and its become louder and louder since 2020.

I agree with this. As time goes on, the older generation will pass on and people who grew up watching basketball mostly from 2010 onward will place LeBron as the GOAT.

LeBron has something that most guys don't. He cemented himself as a player who could play with more physicality, great athleticism, defense, an the ability to win in years that the league didn't see an explosion in offense due to relaxed rules and perimeter play (2015 onward). Granted, his first two rings come by way of a superteam, but that will largely be forgotten or overlooked just as people overlooked MJ's lack of winning from 1985-1990.

From a career perspective, once he has the career points, then most people will look back at that 50 years from now and say "he's definitely the GOAT" given the full resume.

I suppose if we grew up watching guys like Russell and Wilt play, we may have been saying the same thing when MJ retired. It's just history repeating itself as so to speak.

I also think the quality of the game will continue to dip and people won't look at future stars in the same light as they did the 80s, 90s, and 00s.

[TheMan]

Those are team accomplishments which include 14 other players.

Led by thier superstar. LeBron never dominated like Russell, MJ, Magic, Shaq etc

[8Ball]

I agree with this. As time goes on, the older generation will pass on and people who grew up watching basketball mostly from 2010 onward will place LeBron as the GOAT.

LeBron has something that most guys don't. He cemented himself as a player who could play with more physicality, great athleticism, defense, an the ability to win in years that the league didn't see an explosion in offense due to relaxed rules and perimeter play (2015 onward). Granted, his first two rings come by way of a superteam, but that will largely be forgotten or overlooked just as people overlooked MJ's lack of winning from 1985-1990.

From a career perspective, once he has the career points, then most people will look back at that 50 years from now and say "he's definitely the GOAT" given the full resume.

I suppose if we grew up watching guys like Russell and Wilt play, we may have been saying the same thing when MJ retired. It's just history repeating itself as so to speak.

I also think the quality of the game will continue to dip and people won't look at future stars in the same light as they did the 80s, 90s, and 00s.

Most people don't realize in the moment right now how difficult having the points record is and the impact it will have on this GOAT conversation.

The points record is even more impactful than Bron winning another championship.

It takes a 20 year career averaging 27ppg to do so. Decades from now, we will have kids asking themselves how on earth Bron was able to break Kareem's record and average 27ppg doing so. They will pit their current stars with what LeBron accomplished and most if not all with fall short.


Right now it is about 65/35 Jordan in the GOAT debates, by 2040 it will be 80/20 LeBron.

[TheMan]

Most people don't realize in the moment right now how difficult having the points record is and the impact it will have on this GOAT conversation.

The points record is even more impactful than Bron winning another championship.

It takes a 20 year career averaging 27ppg to do so. Decades from now, we will have kids asking themselves how on earth Bron was able to break Kareem's record and average 27ppg doing so. They will pit their current stars with what LeBron accomplished and most if not all with fall short.


Right now it is about 65/35 Jordan in the GOAT debates, by 2040 it will be 80/20 LeBron.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQImUQPMM-Jq5FKPWTRA9y7VKGMzqnfG__j5g&usqp=CAU

[8Ball]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQImUQPMM-Jq5FKPWTRA9y7VKGMzqnfG__j5g&usqp=CAU

I know you are a Bulls fan so this topic is emotionally charging.


But it is what it is

[HoopsNY]

Most people don't realize in the moment right now how difficult having the points record is and the impact it will have on this GOAT conversation.

The points record is even more impactful than Bron winning another championship.

It takes a 20 year career averaging 27ppg to do so. Decades from now, we will have kids asking themselves how on earth Bron was able to break Kareem's record and average 27ppg doing so. They will pit their current stars with what LeBron accomplished and most if not all with fall short.


Right now it is about 65/35 Jordan in the GOAT debates, by 2040 it will be 80/20 LeBron.

I don't think so. I'm not sure if you're old enough, but if you are, then you remember the early 90s when MJ was beginning to gain the GOAT title (as early as 1991 in one of SI's editions). If you remember that, then you also remember that the GOAT debate was usually between Magic, Larry, MJ, and Russell (in fairness I do remember Oscar being brought up a lot too).

Kareem wasn't as spoken of until recently, and the longevity factor obviously wasn't as important given Magic and Larry. A lot of the old timers had 12-14 year careers. Oscar played 14 seasons, Russell 13, Larry 13, Magic 12. But even with Kareem's accomplishments due to longevity, I don't really recall him being proclaimed as the unofficial GOAT back then, this despite the fact that he had a wide margin on scoring.

[TheMan]

I know you are a Bulls fan so this topic is emotionally charging.


But it is what it is

I know you're on LeBron's payroll so your standard of living depends on changing minds...

It is what it is.

[8Ball]

I don't think so. I'm not sure if you're old enough, but if you are, then you remember the early 90s when MJ was beginning to gain the GOAT title (as early as 1991 in one of SI's editions). If you remember that, then you also remember that the GOAT debate was usually between Magic, Larry, MJ, and Russell (in fairness I do remember Oscar being brought up a lot too).

Kareem wasn't as spoken of until recently, and the longevity factor obviously wasn't as important given Magic and Larry. A lot of the old timers had 12-14 year careers. Oscar played 14 seasons, Russell 13, Larry 13, Magic 12. But even with Kareem's accomplishments due to longevity, I don't really recall him being proclaimed as the unofficial GOAT back then, this despite the fact that he had a wide margin on scoring.

Kareem was not part of the conversation because he didn't impact the game the way Magic did as a playmaker. That is ultimately held against him in all time great debates. Magic was considered the better player, almost by consensus. Even then, Kareem still ranks ahead of Magic on most all time lists.


As a total offensive playmaker, Bron ranks up there as among the greatest if not the greatest offensive playmaker along with Bird, Magic, and Jordan.


Bron taking the all time scoring record will be what nudges him over Jordan for many of the current and future generation.

[8Ball]

I know you're on LeBron's payroll so your standard of living depends on changing minds...

It is what it is.

It almost doesnt matter what I think and post.


Bron already sticking the excalibur sword deep enough into the stone and it will take 30 years until we maybe see someone surpass him.

You and I will be old and irrelevant and the younger generation being born right now will look back and compare Bron and Jordan for themselves.

[TheMan]

Kareem was not part of the conversation because he didn't impact the game the way Magic did as a playmaker. That is ultimately held against him in all time great debates. Magic was considered the better player, almost by consensus.


As a total offensive playmaker, Bron ranks up there as among the greatest if not the greatest offensive playmaker along with Bird, Magic, and Jordan.


Bron taking the all time scoring record will be what nudges him over Jordan for many of the current and future generation.
His longevity is unequaled, peak vs peak, there are players most would pick over Bron. Passing KAJ in a list where the 3rd place guy is barely top 20 won't move the needle as much as you're hoping it does.

Hate to break it to you...

What would move the needle is if LeBron finishes his career repeating or threepeating as the clear cut best player but alas those days are over...sorry.

[1987_Lakers]

Led by thier superstar. LeBron never dominated like Russell, MJ, Magic, Shaq etc

Well that's a lie. Magic more dominant than LeBron? lol.

[8Ball]

His longevity is unequaled, peak vs peak, there are players most would pick over Bron. Passing KAJ in a list where the 3rd place guy is barely top 20 won't move the needle as much as you're hoping it does.

Hate to break it to you...

What would move the needle is if LeBron finishes his career repeating or threepeating as the clear cut best player but alas those days are over...sorry.

Most people have Bron at #2 close behind Jordan. You have blinders on, you don't quite realize how close this race is.

[TheMan]

Well that's a lie. Magic more dominant than LeBron? lol.

Yup, 5 chips in 9 tries? Vs all time great teams like the 76ers, Celtics and Pistons? Bran never dominated his era, empty stats bro. 4 chips in 19 years? Great but all time great? Lol

It is what it is.

[Spurs m8]

Yup, 5 chips in 9 tries? Vs all time great teams like the 76ers, Celtics and Pistons? Bran never dominated his era, empty stats bro. 4 chips in 19 years? Great but all time great? Lol

It is what it is.

And that's why they're on here fuming every day

[8Ball]

Yup, 5 chips in 9 tries? Vs all time great teams like the 76ers, Celtics and Pistons? Bran never dominated his era, empty stats bro. 4 chips in 19 years? Great but all time great? Lol

It is what it is.

I know you hate Bron but your hate and other LeBron haters don't really decide rankings.


Who actually would give any credence to for example Skip Bayless ranking the greats? Maybe only Jordan stans would give credence. That's not good enough.

[1987_Lakers]

Yup, 5 chips in 9 tries? Vs all time great teams like the 76ers, Celtics and Pistons? Bran never dominated his era, empty stats bro. 4 chips in 19 years? Great but all time great? Lol

It is what it is.

Lets ignore the fact that he had the most stacked cast the NBA had ever seen in that time. Magic didn't even make his first All-NBA First team until 1983, by that point he already had 2 chips. Kareem outplayed him in the '85 Finals and he didn't even take full control of the team as the undisputed best player until the '87 season, his 8th year in the league. Him and Kareem were pretty much 1A and 1B from about '82-'86, and Kareem was the league's best player in 1980 when they won it.

Use some context bro.

[light]

https://twitter.com/maskedinla/status/1565829013641183232?s=21&t=pZpXoa9QjVIRaYWKbMcuDw

"I'm not gonna fight it. As much as I love Michael Jordan... man, LeBron James is the ONE."

AI is not wrong.

I mean, it's just obvious. LeBron can do so much more than Jordan. He's bigger, better, stronger, faster, smarter and more useful in nearly every way.

Anything that needs to be done on a basketball court, LeBron can do it. When the Bulls were struggling against opposing bigs, they didn't look to Michael Jordan to solve that problem because Michael Jordan couldn't. But LeBron, he can definitely solve that problem and has many times. And in that same player is one of the greatest point guards in history, and also one of the greatest scorers in history. Total 1 through 5 domination which Michael Jordan was not capable of.

[Spurs m8]

Bron went to 10 finals and took down a 73 win team.


I know you hate Bron but your hate and other LeBron haters don't really decide rankings.

Yeah getting to the finals doesn't move the needle when you stack your teams multiple times and lose - more often then not - when it matters.

We all know he played in historically weak Conference against bad opposition, which is why he got embarrassed on the big stage most of the time, when he faced a real team

Been swept twice and gentleman's swept twice.

NO GOAT gets dominated like that, WITH stacked teams.

ALL WHILE GIVING HIS DIRECT OPPONENT FMVP MOST OF THE TIME....HOW EMBARRASSING.

Keep losing, little guy

[TheMan]

Most people have Bron at #2 close behind Jordan. You have blinders on, you don't quite realize how close this race is.

I really don't care if it's close or not, bro. All I know is that I saw both their careers, both their peaks and MJ is absolutely the better player. I'm being brutally honest, Bran is the best player since around 2010 until a few years ago, GOAT tier and unequaled longevity...BUT he never dominated an era like MJ, he never had an air of invincibility...only saw that twice, MJ in the 90s and Shaq early 2000s.

[1987_Lakers]

Lets ignore the fact that he had the most stacked cast the NBA had ever seen in that time. Magic didn't even make his first All-NBA First team until 1983, by that point he already had 2 chips. Kareem outplayed him in the '85 Finals and he didn't even take full control of the team as the undisputed best player until the '87 season, his 8th year in the league. Him and Kareem were pretty much 1A and 1B from about '82-'86, and Kareem was the league's best player in 1980 when they won it.

Use some context bro.

Spurs m8 after reading this...

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRracBWruNZaNFKThoi12XLQnWqDV-qGe112ceushWIKFefnzEdY2UsdnZ5_ED6um4vLZM&usqp=CAU

:lol

[8Ball]

Yeah getting to the finals doesn't move the needle when you stack your teams multiple times and lose - more often then not - when it matters.

We all know he played in historically weak Conference against bad opposition, which is why he got embarrassed on the big stage most of the time, when he faced a real team

Been swept twice and gentleman's swept twice.

NO GOAT gets dominated like that, WITH stacked teams.

Keep losing, little guy


Kevin Durant can stack the deck as many times as he wants while shuffling his career over 20 different times, he won't make 10 finals.


Making the finals 10x in the modern era is near impossible, especially from a physical durability perspective.

[TheMan]

"I'm not gonna fight it. As much as I love Michael Jordan... man, LeBron James is the ONE."

AI is not wrong.

I mean, it's just obvious. LeBron can do so much more than Jordan. He's bigger, better, stronger, faster, smarter and more useful in nearly every way.
Except he never dominated his era like MJ...

6 in 15 >>> 4 in 19

And we're including 2 years where MJ played as a hobby...so really it's 6 in 13 years.

[Spurs m8]

I really don't care if it's close or not, bro. All I know is that I saw both their careers, both their peaks and MJ is absolutely the better player. I'm being brutally honest, Bran is the best player since around 2010 until a few years ago, GOAT tier and unequaled longevity...BUT he never dominated an era like MJ, he never had an air of invincibility...only saw that twice, MJ in the 90s and Shaq early 2000s.

Fantastic post

[1987_Lakers]

Yeah getting to the finals doesn't move the needle when you stack your teams multiple times and lose - more often then not - when it matters.

You are straight up retarded

2015 - No Kyrie and Love
2017 & 2018 - Playing against the most stacked team ever in the Warriors

I can even bring up the fact that Wade was a shell of his former self in 2014 but whatever. If you want to shit on Bron for what he did in 2011 that's fine, he deserves blame there, but to act like Bron was consistenly losing to weaker teams in the Finals all the time despite having a "super team" is a straight up lie.

Bron really ruined you.

[8Ball]

I really don't care if it's close or not, bro. All I know is that I saw both their careers, both their peaks and MJ is absolutely the better player. I'm being brutally honest, Bran is the best player since around 2010 until a few years ago, GOAT tier and unequaled longevity...BUT he never dominated an era like MJ, he never had an air of invincibility...only saw that twice, MJ in the 90s and Shaq early 2000s.

I agree with some points here, Jordan had that magical mystique that he wasn't losing no matter what. That mystique was felt in 97 and 98 pretty strongly.

[8Ball]

You are straight up retarded

2015 - No Kyrie and Love
2017 & 2018 - Playing against the most stacked team ever in the Warriors

I can even bring up the fact that Wade was a shell of his former self in 2014 but whatever. If you want to shit on Bron for what he did in 2011 that's fine, he deserves blame there, but to act like Bron was consistenly losing to weaker teams in the Finals all the time despite having a "super team" is a straight up lie.

Bron really ruined you.

2011 is the only thing you can ever point to and say was a negative for entirety of Bron 20 year career.

[1987_Lakers]

Most people have Bron at #2 close behind Jordan. You have blinders on, you don't quite realize how close this race is.

Pretty much, at the end of the day it's gonna come down to what people value, peak vs longevity. You can say MJ had a better peak, (although Bron has a top 3 peak himself), but Bron clearly has him beat in the longevity department. If Bron somehow manages to win another chip it's gonna be very hard to argue against him as being the GOAT.

[TheMan]

2011 is the only thing you can ever point to and say was a negative for entirety of Bron 20 year career.

My biggest beef with LeBron is the way he tried to stack the deck in his favor in 2010. If he would have stayed and won in Cleveland, perhaps he would have 2 or 3 titles, but he would be waaaaay more respected. Then the clown show he put on about how it was gonna be easy and not 1, not 2, not 3 etc. I really feel that's when he became a villain, most disliked NBA GOAT tier player ever. MJ, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Kobe, TDuncan etc, none of them have ever been that disliked by a big slice of NBA fans and I really feel it started with his cowardly collusion to Miami.

[1987_Lakers]

We all know he played in historically weak Conference against bad opposition

You know who else played in a historical weak conference? Magic.

But you sucked his dick when another poster mentioned he won 5 titles in 9 tries.

:roll:

[8Ball]

You know who else played in a historical weak conference? Magic.

But you sucked his dick when another poster mentioned he won 5 titles in 9 tries.

:roll:

This is why I say years down the line history will look at Bron different.

Nobody cares today that Magic played in a weak western conference in the 80s. All the small irrelevant things get cemented over and forgotten.

[8Ball]

My biggest beef with LeBron is the way he tried to stack the deck in his favor in 2010. If he would have stayed and won in Cleveland, perhaps he would have 2 or 3 titles, but he would be waaaaay more respected. Then the clown show he put on about how it was gonna be easy and not 1, not 2, not 3 etc. I really feel that's when he became a villain, most disliked NBA GOAT tier player ever. MJ, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Kobe, TDuncan etc, none of them have ever been that disliked by a big slice of NBA fans and I really feel it started with his cowardly collusion to Miami.

You are allowed to hate LeBron for "stacking the deck in 2010" and being arrogant about it in that stadium speech.


He literally "tried" to build the most stacked superteam he could in the summer of 2010 mainly because he hated losing the the Celtics that came together in 2008.


Magic, MJ, Bird, Shaq, Kobe, Tim Duncan were all given some of the most stacked teams of all time TheMan.


How is it fair that Kobe gets to have prime Shaq for 8 years right away, Duncan gets to have 2-3 HOFs around him, Bird had such a stacked team that he admitted told his teammates that not winning a few chips with such a stacked team was a failure. You either get a stacked team, or you build one yourself.

[8Ball]

"I'm not gonna fight it. As much as I love Michael Jordan... man, LeBron James is the ONE."

AI is not wrong.

I mean, it's just obvious. LeBron can do so much more than Jordan. He's bigger, better, stronger, faster, smarter and more useful in nearly every way.

Anything that needs to be done on a basketball court, LeBron can do it. When the Bulls were struggling against opposing bigs, they didn't look to Michael Jordan to solve that problem because Michael Jordan couldn't. But LeBron, he can definitely solve that problem and has many times. And in that same player is one of the greatest point guards in history, and also one of the greatest scorers in history. Total 1 through 5 domination which Michael Jordan was not capable of.



The versatility is what does it for me.

Back in 2012, Bosh was injured in the playoffs and the Heat had legitimately no good big man, not that Bosh was any good at being a big man...

Bron goes and grabs 18 rebounds in a pivotal game 4 against the Pacers, also has 9 assists and 40 points. Basically being the team's big, the team's playmaker, and the team's scorer. Extremely difficult to do, and Jordan was never demanded to do that.

In the ECF vs in a pivotal game 6 vs Boston down 3-2, Bron goes and scores 45 points, and then grabs 15 rebounds on top of it.


It's the versatility and the task of doing many things on the court.

[HoopsNY]

Kareem was not part of the conversation because he didn't impact the game the way Magic did as a playmaker. That is ultimately held against him in all time great debates. Magic was considered the better player, almost by consensus. Even then, Kareem still ranks ahead of Magic on most all time lists.


As a total offensive playmaker, Bron ranks up there as among the greatest if not the greatest offensive playmaker along with Bird, Magic, and Jordan.


Bron taking the all time scoring record will be what nudges him over Jordan for many of the current and future generation.

Yea, I understand that. I'm just saying that having the GOAT title because of the points record is revisionist history. It's revisionist now, and it will be in 50 years when people reflect on this accomplishment. Meanwhile, at the time, or shortly thereafter, it wasn't a point of overarching consideration.

[kawhileonard2]

Steph Curry has as many titles and beat Lebron 3 of 4 times in his own era despite playing 5 less seasons.

[kawhileonard2]

You are allowed to hate LeBron for "stacking the deck in 2010" and being arrogant about it in that stadium speech.


He literally "tried" to build the most stacked superteam he could in the summer of 2010 mainly because he hated losing the the Celtics that came together in 2008.


Magic, MJ, Bird, Shaq, Kobe, Tim Duncan were all given some of the most stacked teams of all time TheMan.


How is it fair that Kobe gets to have prime Shaq for 8 years right away, Duncan gets to have 2-3 HOFs around him, Bird had such a stacked team that he admitted told his teammates that not winning a few chips with such a stacked team was a failure. You either get a stacked team, or you build one yourself.

Jordan was never given a stacked team. Jordan never played with anyone who won league or finals mvp and went to an organization that never won.

[kawhileonard2]

You know who else played in a historical weak conference? Magic.

But you sucked his dick when another poster mentioned he won 5 titles in 9 tries.

:roll:

Yeah he won 5 titles out of 9 not 4 out of 10 with switching teams and stacking the deck. Magic also never won bronze medal.

[SATAN]

I don't think so. I'm not sure if you're old enough, but if you are, then you remember the early 90s when MJ was beginning to gain the GOAT title (as early as 1991 in one of SI's editions).



Another reason the 6 rings argument is so silly.

[kawhileonard2]

Another reason the 6 rings argument is so silly.

What about turning a franchise that never won into a dynasty vs winning 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted you?

[HoopsNY]

"I'm not gonna fight it. As much as I love Michael Jordan... man, LeBron James is the ONE."

AI is not wrong.

I mean, it's just obvious. LeBron can do so much more than Jordan. He's bigger, better, stronger, faster, smarter and more useful in nearly every way.

Anything that needs to be done on a basketball court, LeBron can do it. When the Bulls were struggling against opposing bigs, they didn't look to Michael Jordan to solve that problem because Michael Jordan couldn't. But LeBron, he can definitely solve that problem and has many times. And in that same player is one of the greatest point guards in history, and also one of the greatest scorers in history. Total 1 through 5 domination which Michael Jordan was not capable of.

Bigger, sure, but who cares?

Stronger, i'll give you that.

Faster? No.

Smarter? No.

Granted, we can debate these points but your conviction in them is more aligned with a fanboy mentality than actual facts.

You're also bringing up opposing bigs as if LeBron squared off at the 5 against peak Shaq, Ewing, Zo, Hakeem, etc. Let's not pretend that the league was not filled with elite 4s and 5s when LeBron started playing PF.

And elite PG? That's laughable. The Lakers were 11th in ORTG in 2020 and 24th in ORTG in 2021. Okay, there were injuries in 2021. But LeBron and AD played together from 12/22 to about 02/06 before injuries flared up again. During that time, they were 13th in ORTG.

[HoopsNY]

You are straight up retarded

2015 - No Kyrie and Love
2017 & 2018 - Playing against the most stacked team ever in the Warriors

I can even bring up the fact that Wade was a shell of his former self in 2014 but whatever. If you want to shit on Bron for what he did in 2011 that's fine, he deserves blame there, but to act like Bron was consistenly losing to weaker teams in the Finals all the time despite having a "super team" is a straight up lie.

Bron really ruined you.

You can't act like 2012 and 2013 aren't called into question when the entire NBA world was going in on the formation of the superteam in 2011. It's not just about the meltdown in 2011. Now you can push back on that, which you have in the past, but it's still a point of contention amongst media, fans, and the greater basketball world. And it certainly was a big deal in 2010 when it happened.

Now I will say that if Kyrie and Love play in 2015, then the Cavs probably win. So I guess it all evens out to some extent.

[HoopsNY]

Pretty much, at the end of the day it's gonna come down to what people value, peak vs longevity. You can say MJ had a better peak, (although Bron has a top 3 peak himself), but Bron clearly has him beat in the longevity department. If Bron somehow manages to win another chip it's gonna be very hard to argue against him as being the GOAT.

I think this is fair assessment.

[HoopsNY]

The versatility is what does it for me.

Back in 2012, Bosh was injured in the playoffs and the Heat had legitimately no good big man, not that Bosh was any good at being a big man...

Bron goes and grabs 18 rebounds in a pivotal game 4 against the Pacers, also has 9 assists and 40 points. Basically being the team's big, the team's playmaker, and the team's scorer. Extremely difficult to do, and Jordan was never demanded to do that.

In the ECF vs in a pivotal game 6 vs Boston down 3-2, Bron goes and scores 45 points, and then grabs 15 rebounds on top of it.


It's the versatility and the task of doing many things on the court.

Fair point. LeBron definitely has versatility over MJ.

[RRR3]

I honestly don’t have LeBron as the GOAT but it’s beyond delusional to think he’s not in the conversation like Spurs m8 and theMan do.

@HoopsNY I’m not sure LeBron will ever be consensus GOAT even with time Babe Ruth is still considered GOAT for mlb for instance

[1987_Lakers]

You can't act like 2012 and 2013 aren't called into question when the entire NBA world was going in on the formation of the superteam in 2011. It's not just about the meltdown in 2011. Now you can push back on that, which you have in the past, but it's still a point of contention amongst media, fans, and the greater basketball world. And it certainly was a big deal in 2010 when it happened.

Now I will say that if Kyrie and Love play in 2015, then the Cavs probably win. So I guess it all evens out to some extent.

I don't fault LeBron leaving the Cavs, he gave them 7 years to form a legit team and they never did, so he left. He made the right choice IMO. Maybe he should have handled the entire episode of him joining Miami different, but that is a different discussion.

What LeBron did in coming back to Cleveland and winning a chip was pretty cool IMO, he redeemed himself to lots of Cavs fans, he also joined the Lakers when they were a total mess.

Initially it looked like him joining Miami was going to break the NBA, but it didn't. in 2012 the Thunder were actually vegas favorites against Miami and in 2013 the Finals went to 7 games and had a classic game 6. In all, they didn't dominate/break the NBA like many people say, mostly because Wade started to regress as a player by 2012 or so, but they still won back to back titles, which is a success.

Him joining Miami isn't anywhere near what KD did, dude joined a 73 win team that just beat him in the playoffs, that is next level weak shit. Hell, you could argue Moses Malone joining the Sixers was worse than what LeBron did, an MVP player joining a team that just made the Finals, but nobody EVER brings that up. Or how about Wilt demanding a trade from the Sixers and joining West & Baylor only to lose to the Celtics....again!

Can you imagine if LeBron called up say.... KD & Westbrook back in 2014, they join forces but lose to the Warriors (Curry, Klay, Dray) in the Finals and to make matters worse they lose again the very next year in the Finals vs a team with an injured superstar (Willis Reed, 1970). The haters on here would be in heaven and would constantly bring up those failures, that is what happened to Wilt, yet these same haters think Wilt deserves to be ranked ahead of LeBron for some weird reason.

[1987_Lakers]

And for people wondering, Wilt did in fact force a trade to the Lakers to play with Jerry West & Baylor.

Koz and I talked it over and agreed that we’d make a deal with Chamberlain to be the team’s coach. But when Wilt returned, he said that he had changed his mind, that he was not going to play in Philadelphia again, and he demanded a trade to a West Coast team – to Seattle, Los Angeles, or San Diego. When we indicated that we weren’t interested in trading him, he said that he’d jump to the ABA team in Los Angeles. (The ability of NBA players to leave their existing teams began in 1967 when Rick Barry, a free agent at the time, left the San Francisco Warriors of the NBA to join Oakland of the newly formed ABA. Barry was forced by a court order to sit out a year, but then played for Oakland in 1968-69, and played three more years in the ABA for other teams before returning to the NBA with the Golden State Warriors in 1972. With that precedent established, NBA players who were not under contract looked to enhance their bargaining position by threatening to “jump” to the ABA. Chamberlain knew that he was playing with a strong negotiating chip.)

I could hardly believe what I was hearing. I had come to the meeting brimming with enthusiasm, prepared to fill the coaching void, and suddenly found myself, still without a coach and with the prospect of losing the most powerful player in the game. Koz, who was accustomed to Wilt’s negotiating ploys (he only did one-year contracts, had no agent, and did all the negotiating himself), tried to push the discussion aside. But Wilt said that he was serious about his decision and that in now way would he play for Philadelphia again. He walked out of the meeting leaving me with my mouth hanging open.

We eventually worked out a deal with the Lakers – the only team Wilt later said he would go to – and moved on.

https://ballislife.com/why-did-the-76ers-trade-wilt-for-jerry-chambers-archie-clark-darrall-imhoff/#:~:text=Koz%20and%20I%20talked%20it,Los%20Angeles %2C%20or%20San%20Diego.

:oldlol:

[Spurs m8]

Steph Curry has as many titles and beat Lebron 3 of 4 times in his own era despite playing 5 less seasons.

Yes...a true leader of the franchise.

Sacrificed stats and fmvp for team wins...

Unlike a certain team killer

[Axe]

Steph Curry has as many titles and beat Lebron 3 of 4 times in his own era despite playing 5 less seasons.
No klay?

[TheGoatest]

I think Iverson his overrated, but I sure as hell will take his word over a parents' basement-dweller with countless alts on an internet message board. :roll:

[dankok8]

I disagree with the premise that when the dust settles and a few years go by, that Lebron's GOAT support will increase. The all-time scoring title is nice but Kareem was never the consensus GOAT despite having the scoring record. If anything Lebron's deficit in major accomplishments (championships, MVP's...) compared to Jordan will probably be the bottom line for most people. Longevity matters less to people than accomplishments, dominance and peak play probably in that order. Future generations who haven't seen either of them will oversimplify and say "Probably MJ because he won 6 rings."

The only way for Lebron to actually significantly boost his case is to win more rings as the best player. And to be perfectly honest I am not counting him out at all. If Davis is healthy this year, the Lakers could win another ring and if Lebron doesn't have to carry too much load in the regular season, I can see another dominant playoff performance. And considering Lebron will probably play for like 5 more seasons he could get to 6 or 7 rings. It's plausible and if he gets there even if he isn't the best player for all of them, his GOAT case will get a serious boost.

[TheGoatest]

Kareem was probably closer to being the consensus GOAT than Bill Russell, who has won 11 rings in 13 years, so it seems like being the all-time points leader outweighed being the all-time rings leader.
Not to mention that Kareem's case took a hit when he lost the all-time playoff points leader title, but LeBron won't have that problem after he passes Kareem.

[1987_Lakers]

People underestimate how much influence the media has when it comes to these discussions, to me Kareem was the clear GOAT when he retired in 1989, but because he wasn't marketable, didn't have a friendly relationship with the media I have a suspicion lots of people didn't consider him the GOAT despite him being the obvious GOAT at the time.

[TheMan]

People underestimate how much influence the media has when it comes to these discussions, to me Kareem was the clear GOAT when he retired in 1989, but because he wasn't marketable, didn't have a friendly relationship with the media I have a suspicion lots of people didn't consider him the GOAT despite him being the obvious GOAT at the time.

I largely agree with that. With LeBron, it's the opposite, plenty of media pushes LeBron as the GOAT, of course the NBA is part of it too, it helps ratings when the GOAT of their sport is currently playing. Thing is, people aren't buying it and I think it's because of two huge factors, MJ has more accomplishments in less time and LeBron is just not popular outside of his fanbase. You can go through all the numbers all you want, people view MJ as a champ and LeBron as a chump...

It is what it is.

[1987_Lakers]

I largely agree with that. With LeBron, it's the opposite, plenty of media pushes LeBron as the GOAT, of course the NBA is part of it too, it helps ratings when the GOAT of their sport is currently playing. Thing is, people aren't buying it and I think it's because of two huge factors, MJ has more accomplishments in less time and LeBron is just not popular outside of his fanbase. You can go through all the numbers all you want, people view MJ as a champ and LeBron as a chump...

It is what it is.

To casuals maybe. You can make a great case for MJ being the GOAT, but there is no doubt in my mind more casuals consider MJ the GOAT at a higher level than hardcore fans do. I still remember when ESPN ran a poll and the majority of people felt MJ was a better passer than LeBron, which is a flat out lie and even most realistic MJ fans will admit LeBron was the better passer of the two.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29187444/michael-jordan-better-lebron-james-every-way-says-poll-nba-fans

Just look at that. 59% said MJ was a better passer. :oldlol:

This is why I value more the realgm project I posted, even if you don't agree with the results, you can't deny the people who participated in it are way more knowledgable.

[TheMan]

To casuals maybe. You can make a great case for MJ being the GOAT, but there is no doubt in my mind more casuals consider MJ the GOAT at a higher level than hardcore fans do. I still remember when ESPN ran a poll and the majority of people felt MJ was a better passer than LeBron, which is a flat out lie and even most realistic MJ fans will admit LeBron was the better passer of the two.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29187444/michael-jordan-better-lebron-james-every-way-says-poll-nba-fans

Just look at that. 59% said MJ was a better passer. :oldlol:

This is why I value more the realgm project I posted, even if you don't agree with the results, you can't deny the people who participated in it are way more knowledgable.

We'll agree to disagree.

Speaking only for myself, I watched both their careers, MJ peak vs peak was the superior player.

[RRR3]

Pooor TheStan. LeBron being too 3 ruined his life.

[TheMan]

Pooor TheStan. LeBron being too 3 ruined his life.

I'm not the one who finds transvestites attractive nor did I make the ISH classic "existence is pain" thread.

[RRR3]

Grrrrr LeBron :mad:
:yaohappy:

[TheMan]

:yaohappy:

In what way is me just posting my personal opinion that peak for peak MJ was the superior player makes me angry at LeBron?

[8Ball]

Objectively speaking, Jordan's 3 year span of 91 to 93 is quite unrivaled.

Don't think Bron had a 3 year stretch that dominant. Shaq def did but it was weighted heavily to the playoffs since Shaq took it easy during reg season.

Maybe Bron's 2 year. 2012, 2013.

And then bits and pieces like 2016 and 2018.

[RRR3]

In what way is me just posting my personal opinion that peak for peak MJ was the superior player makes me angry at LeBron?
I have MJ ranked as GOAT youre the one throwing a fit in this thread that LeBron is ranked closely behind him though

[theman93]

Lol he also called Durant "the one" this is taken completely out of context. Clown. :roll:

https://twitter.com/LetsTLKbball/status/1565855346450698240?s=20&t=J3KhQmJSxeqGhxN_K7Kuiw