Which Finals loss was more heartbreaking/bigger stain on legacy. 1969 or 1970?

[1987_Lakers]

1969 Finals: Lakers add Wilt to an already very good Lakers team that made the Finals the year before, with him they have 3 of the top 5 players from the decade, Wilt, Jerry West, & Baylor. In the Finals they are overwhelming favorites against a Celtics team that is aging and obviously past their prime. LA has a 3-2 series lead, but lose game 6 and game 7 at home. Jerry West plays out of his mind the entire series while Wilt manages to get outscored by Don Nelson. Baylor also has a rough series, seemed like a carry job by Jerry West. Wilt goes 4-13 from the FT line in game 7. To lose to an aging Celtics team despite having 3 of the top 5 players has to be pretty rough.

1970 Finals: Lakers played the Knicks. To me it seemed like the Knicks were the better team, I would bet they were favorites to win this series. Series starts and it's pretty competitive for the most part. Wilt is having a much better series than he did in '69 and the series is tied at 2-2, but then very early in game 5 Willis Reed, the league MVP gets injured for the Knicks. Lakers gain a huge edge it seems, they have a 10 point lead after the 1st quarter and Reed might be out for the series, but they end up losing that game. Wilt has a HUGE game 6, dropping 45 and winning, but in game 7 they lose with Reed coming back and dropping a whopping 4 points, Wilt goes 1/11 from the FT line in that game.

[8Ball]

Wilt's 1969. Game 7, they lost by only 2 points. And Wilt went 4-13 from the FT line.

Here are Wilt's numbers in that series. Truly one of the most awful performances ever by a top 10 player.

12 points a game, 45% from the free throw line.


The 4 columns on the right, from left to right, rebounds, assists, fouls, points.

https://i.ibb.co/PwG05K6/Screen-Shot-2022-09-04-at-11-21-58-AM.png

[8Ball]

Game 4, they lose by 1 point, and Wilt goes 2-11 from the line, and has 8 points!!!!

[SouBeachTalents]

Definitely 1969, that's honestly one of the most brutal and epic Finals losses ever, for a variety of reasons.

1. The Lakers had HCA & the Celtics were the 4th seed, I'm WAY too lazy to look this up lol, but I'm just going to assume out of all the Lakers/Celtics matchups, this was the first time the Lakers had homecourt.

2. The Lakers went up 2-0 and lost Game 4 in absolutely heartbreaking fashion. They had a 1 point lead and the ball with under 10 seconds to go, but Baylor stepped out of bounds, then Sam Jones hit the series changing dagger at the buzzer. This series is over in 5 without this sequence of events.

3. Before Game 7 the Lakers owner passed out flyers with championship celebration plans while placing thousands of balloons in the rafters. The Celtics players obtained a copy of the championship itinerary, prompting Russell to tell West those fcking balloons are staying up there.

4. In Game 7 the Celtics held a whopping 25 point lead heading into the 4th, but the Lakers stormed all the way back to cut it to 1 with 1:30 left, but couldn't quite clear the hurdle as the Celtics managed to hang on to win by just 2.

5. Just a devastating loss for Wilt & West, as this was their final opportunity to knock off their vaunted rival and they gave away a golden opportunity. West played absolutely out of his mind, having literally one of the greatest Finals ever, including imo the greatest Finals Game 7 performance of all time.

6, Meanwhile, Wilt had the worst series of his career, seeing his ppg average in the Finals decrease by 9 from his regular season average. And after injuring himself in the 4th quarter in Game 7, his coach benched during final 5 minutes of a razor thin Game 7 in the Finals, which is absolutely inconceivable when you think about it lol.

Don't get me wrong though 1970 was another brutal defeat for Wilt, and you could've easily included 1968 when the Sixers blew the first 3-1 lead in playoff history, and Wilt completely disappeared in the 2nd half of Game 7.

Wilt could have EASILY won 3 straight titles from 1968-70, the fact he walked away with zero during this timeframe is insane, and is arguably the biggest reason why he's not considered the GOAT.

[8Ball]

Definitely 1969, that's honestly one of the most brutal and epic Finals losses ever, for a variety of reasons.

1. The Lakers had HCA & the Celtics were the 4th seed, I'm WAY too lazy to look this up lol, but I'm just going to assume out of all the Lakers/Celtics matchups, this was the first time the Lakers had homecourt.

2. The Lakers went up 2-0 and lost Game 4 in absolutely heartbreaking fashion. They had a 1 point lead and the ball with under 10 seconds to go, but Baylor stepped out of bounds, then Sam Jones hit the series changing dagger at the buzzer. This series is over in 5 without this sequence of events.

3. Before Game 7 the Lakers owner passed out flyers with championship celebration plans while placing thousands of balloons in the rafters. The Celtics players obtained a copy of the championship itinerary, prompting Russell to tell West those fcking balloons are staying up there.

4. In Game 7 the Celtics held a whopping 25 point lead heading into the 4th, but the Lakers stormed all the way back to cut it to 1 with 1:30 left, but couldn't quite clear the hurdle as the Celtics managed to hang on to win by just 2.

5. Just a devastating loss for Wilt & West, as this was their final opportunity to knock off their vaunted rival and they gave away a golden opportunity. West played absolutely out of his mind, having literally one of the greatest Finals ever, including imo the greatest Finals Game 7 performance of all time.

6, Meanwhile, Wilt had the worst series of his career, seeing his ppg average in the Finals decrease by 9 from his regular season average. And after injuring himself in the 4th quarter in Game 7, his coach benched during final 5 minutes of a razor thin Game 7 in the Finals, which is absolutely inconceivable when you think about it lol.

Don't get me wrong though 1970 was another brutal defeat for Wilt, and you could've easily included 1968 when the Sixers blew the first 3-1 lead in playoff history, and Wilt completely disappeared in the 2nd half of Game 7.

Wilt could have EASILY won 3 straight titles from 1968-70, the fact he walked away with zero during this timeframe is insane, and is arguably the biggest reason why he's not considered the GOAT.

Game 7 against Boston 1965 he loses by 1 point and goes 6-13 from free throw line.

Game 7 against Boston in 1968 Philly lost by 4 points and Wilt went 6-15 from the free throw line.

Game 7 against Boston 1969 Wilt loses by 2 points and goes 4-13 from free throw line.

Game 4 finals in 1970 Wilt goes 7-13 from the line and loses by 3 points.

Wilt left 4 championships on the table because he couldn't shoot free throws.

That's quite insane. 4 championships directly lost because he can't shoot free throws.

[Full Court]

Wilt had the physical gifts to be the GOAT, but seasons like this made him max out at #3. Still not a bad place to end up though.

[dankok8]

1969 is easily worse. He just played way too passive and didn't do enough to help West. It was also a series where he got outplayed individually by Russell. In 1970 he came off of a knee injury and still had an unreal Game 6 in the Finals which was a must-win game. He was also quite good in Round 1 against a really good Suns team in 1970 and led the team back from a 1-3 deficit with some huge games. In 1970 I blame him for Game 7 but it was the whole Lakers team getting annihilated by the Knicks in that one. The game was over in the 2nd quarter. His aggression offensively was not always there in 1970 but it isn't nearly as much of a choke as 1969. Or 1968 for that matter where he refused to shoot the ball in Game 7.

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt was playing with a torn calf in the 1968 ECF which basically limited his mobility a lot.


When Boston thumped the 76ers in the opening game of their playoffs here last Friday, some predicted a quick knockout of the injury-riddled champs.

But Philadelphia whacked Boston two straight, including Thursday where an injury actually helped the 76ers cause, points out Pollack.

How so?

"Well, Chamberlain was hurt and he couldn't turn around to score-so he kept feeding Greer, and he scored 31," explained the statistician.


Also according to Vince Miller after the game seven ended.

Chamberlain had gotten just five touches in the fourth.


Whether it two touches or five in the final period, all accounts agree that he got 7 touches in the 2nd half.

This after 23 touches in the 1st half.


"What would I have looked like if I had said, 'Hey, we lost because my teammates didn't get the ball into me?

If Alex Hannum didn't have guts enough to lay it on the line and accept a certain amount of responsibility for the loss and name the reasons why, then I've lost a lot of respect for him, which I have and I will tell him that when I see him.


You can't shoot the ball if you don't have the ball.

But you know something, after the game, not one writer came up to me and said 'Hey, how come the ball didn't come into you?' Not one. But all of them did ask me, 'How come you didn't shoot more?'"

[1987_Lakers]

I believe Billy Cunningham was also out in that series vs Boston in '68, to me his losses in '69 & '70 are worse.

[coastalmarker99]

Personally as a huge Wilt fan.


1969 is worse than 1970.


I have said for years that the Lakers win the title in 1970 if Reed does not get hurt in game 5.


As Wilt had figured him out after he just got destroyed in game 1.


Game 1

Reed 37 PTS 16 REBS 16-30 from the field

Chamberlain 17 PTS 24 REBS 8-14 from the field

Game 2

Reed 29 PTS 15 REBS 12-29 from the field

Chamberlain 19 PTS 24 REBS 9-20 from the field


Game 3

Reed 38 PTS 17 REBS 17-30 from the field

Chamberlain 21 PTS 26 REBS 7-10 from the field


Game 4

Reed 23 PTS 12 REBS 10-23 from the field

Chamberlain 18 PTS 25 REBS 7-13 from the field


What won New york the title was them going small with a full lineup of outside shooters and putting two wings on Wilt to swarm him and prevent him from getting the ball down low.


As In game 5 Wilt was dominating Reed to begin the game and LA was up by over 10 points.



However, once Reed went down and New york started swarming Wilt.


The Lakers were forced into over 25 turnovers which is just unbelievable.


Even more shocking is West just taking three shots in the second half of that game.

[1987_Lakers]

As Wilt had figured him out after he just got destroyed in game 1.



Reed dropped 38 points in game 3 and got the win, that doesn't sound like someone who got figured out. lol.

[coastalmarker99]

Reed dropped 38 points in game 3 and got the win, that doesn't sound like someone who got figured out. lol.

Wilt historically owned Reed before his knee injury and even himself along with many of his LA teammates have claimed about those finals that they had figured out Reed before he got hurt.


As in the two Laker wins Wilt had held a shot-jacking Reed to 22-52 shooting (.42.3) while outrebounding him in those two games by a 49-27 margin.

And then in game 5, they were down double-digits when he left with his injury),


New York's small ball, once Reed went down, is what won them that series as they took full advantage of Wilt's lack of mobility with their shooters.


Also in the season prior in 1969 here were their numbers in their 2 regular season H2H's:

(Reed took over the center position after Bellamy was traded in mid-season)

Reed: 20.0 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 3.0 apg, .459 FG%

Wilt: 28.0 ppg, 22.0 rpg, 4.0 apg, .68.8 FG%.



Also in 1968 when they matched up in the playoffs.


Wilt did have one of his best-ever playoff series.

As here are his full stat lines from that series

game 1 1 37 PTS 29 REBS 7 ASTS 10 BLKS

game 2 24 PTS 17 REBS 8 ASTS 12 BLKS

game 3 18 PTS 24 REBS 8 ASTS 11 BLKS

game 4 23 PTS 27 REBS 5 ASTS 6 BLKS

game 5 26 PTS 21 REBS 7 ASTS 14 BLKS

game 6 25 PTS 27 REBS 3 ASTS 10 BLKS


For the series, he averaged 25.5 PTS 24.1 REBS 6.3 ASTS 10.5 BLKS, .537 TS%)


to Reed's 21.3/10.3/1.8 (35.0 MPG) on .541 shooting (.576 TS%)


That's pretty much a beatdown,

[coastalmarker99]

In all honestly what hurt Wilt's legacy the most was going to LA instead of staying on that stacked 76er team


Assuming that Wilt stayed and played with the mindset he had during 67 and 68 Walker probably doesn't get traded and Billy C. might have stayed.


They keep that starting five of Jones--Walker--Greer--Wilt--Jackson with Billy C. as the 6th man--maybe Jackson's physical breakdown puts in on the bench (early load management, hehe) and Cunningham starts.


That is easily the best starting five in the league for a 3-5 year stretch.

Assuming no injuries, I think they get anywhere from 3-5 more titles.


As while The Knicks got an excellent squad together with the acquisition of DeBusschere, the move of Willis Reed to center, and the emergence of Walt Frazier as a superstar.


I still think the Sixers would have been the best team.

[coastalmarker99]

For 1969 I would like to know what Wilt was supposed to do in a place where his coach didn't want him.


He reduced his scoring and offensive role, as VBK wanted and led the Lakers to the best defence in the playoffs while averaging the most RPG and BPG.



How much can we blame a player whose coach didn't want him and didn't want to find an optimal role for him?


I mean a center can not pass himself the ball.


Look at game seven in which Wilt shot 7 out of eight from the field and scored 18 points.


Yet VBK decided to let Baylor jack up 22 shots on a horrible percentage instead of feeding Wilt.


Likewise for game 3 in which Wilt had 16 points on 6 out of 11 shooting yet Baylor was allowed to shoot 4 out of 18 from the floor in a six-point loss.

[coastalmarker99]

I have 4 games from the 1969 finals of Wilt's full statline.



GAME 1 15 PTS 23 REBS 4 ASTS 12 BLKS 6-11 FG 3-9 FT

GAME 4 8 PTS 31 REBS 1 ASTS 3-8 FG 8 BLKS 2-11 FT

GAME 5 13 PTS 31 REBS 3 ASTS 10 BLKS 5-9 FG 3-8 FT

GAME 7 18 PTS 27 REBS 3 ASTS 10 BLKS 7-8 FG 4-13 FT


Games 4 and 6 from that series are the two games in which any rational fan will admit that Wilt completely choked as had he managed to put up even an average offensive performance in games 4 or six LA would have won the Finals.

Outside of that through he played decent as he did keep Russell in check.


It's not Wilt's fault that VBK just had him setting screens for a declining Baylor to shot-jack his team right down the toilet in the finals.


As Baylor in the 1969 finals had four games of 4-18, 2-14 (and 1-5 from the line...in a one-point loss), 4-13, and then a game seven of 8-22 from the field.

In those four games, three of them losses, Baylor shot a combined 18-67, or .26.9!

For the entire series, Baylor shot .39.7.

[8Ball]

Coastalmarker, what do you think about Wilt's free throw shooting.


I think his legacy would have been completely different if he had nailed a few more free throws in a few game 7s and retire with 4 championships. He'd probably be a top 4-5 lock on all lists if he had done that.

[coastalmarker99]

Coastalmarker, what do you think about Wilt's free throw shooting.


I think his legacy would have been completely different if he had nailed a few more free throws in a few game 7s and retire with 4 championships. He'd probably be a top 4-5 lock on all lists if he had done that.


He was a horrible free throw shooter however his biggest flaw was being too nice.

After reading that he was passing out to teammates due to being too old to score Wilt Chamberlain over the next three games averaged:

56.0 PPG (29.0 FGA)
32.7 RPG
4.0 APG
FG%: 79%

Prior, he was averaging:
19.1 PPG (14.4 FGA)
24.0 RPG
7.0 APG
FG%: 53%



If Wilt had the killer instinct or the mean streak of Lebron or Jordan there wouldn't be a Goat debate nowadays.


He strangely for some reason held himself back from going all out because of some fairness principle he had.


He could have dunked the ball every single possession had he seriously wanted to instead of settling for fadeaways and finger rolls so he could show people that he was skilful.

Here's is Wilt's take on this.

''If I just went out and took it to the basket every time I'd have averaged 60 to 65 points a game''.

And I am seriously starting to think that Wilt's being truthful when he says that.



If you watch the YouTube footage of the game in which the Bucks ended LA's 33 game winning streak.

Going on memory, at about the seven-minute mark of that footage, Kareem "sucker punches" Happy Hairston.

Wilt storms over to assist Hairston and Kareem retreats to the corner.

On the very next play, the Lakers inbound the ball to a 35-year-old Wilt, who just blows right thru a helpless Kareem for an easy basket.

Clearly, had Wilt played with that sort of anger during his career then well then he would have dominated even more and won more rings.

[coastalmarker99]

Coastalmarker, what do you think about Wilt's free throw shooting.


I think his legacy would have been completely different if he had nailed a few more free throws in a few game 7s and retire with 4 championships. He'd probably be a top 4-5 lock on all lists if he had done that.

The only Center that I think would be seriously strong enough to stop an incredibly aggressive Wilt from going to the basket every single time for dunks is Nate.


Everybody else including Russell would have gotten abused.

In fact, if you watch the number 2 dunk at the 2-minute mark he basically makes Russell look as if he is a child when he decided to play bully-ball.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MHjgphNZXo




Here are some quotes about how strong Wilt was.

"I still remember the time when one of our strongest men, Gene Conley, decided to fight Chamberlain for the ball.

He grabbed it and hung on and Chamberlain just lifted him and ball right up towards the rim."-- Bill Russell Go up For Glory, p.126.


"The first time I guarded Wilt, I stood behind him and he was so wide that I couldn't see the rest of the game.

Then I saw him dunk a ball so hard that it hit the court and bounced straight up back through the rim again."--Bob Ferry, Tall Tales (by Terry Pluto) p. 326


"Once Wilt got upset with me and dunked the ball so hard it went through the rim with such force that it broke my toe as it hit the floor."--Johnny Kerr, Tall Tales (by Terry Pluto) p. 237


"One time, when I was with Boston and he was with the Lakers, Happy Hairston and I were about to get in a scrape.

All of a sudden, I felt an enormous vice around me. I was 6-7, 235, and Wilt had picked me up and turned me around. He said, 'We're not going to have that stuff.' I said, 'Yes sir.' -- Paul Silas

"He [Wilt] stopped me dead in my tracks with his arm, hugged me and lifted me off the floor with my feet dangling.

It scared the hell out of me. When I went to the free-throw line, my legs were still shaking. Wilt was the strongest guy and best athlete ever to play the game." -- KC Jones

[8Ball]

He was a horrible free throw shooter however his biggest flaw was being too nice.

After reading that he was passing out to teammates due to being too old to score Wilt Chamberlain over the next three games averaged:

56.0 PPG (29.0 FGA)
32.7 RPG
4.0 APG
FG%: 79%

Prior, he was averaging:
19.1 PPG (14.4 FGA)
24.0 RPG
7.0 APG
FG%: 53%



If Wilt had the killer instinct or the mean streak of Lebron or Jordan there wouldn't be a Goat debate nowadays.


He strangely for some reason held himself back from going all out because of some fairness principle he had.


He could have dunked the ball every single possession had he seriously wanted to instead of settling for fadeaways and finger rolls so he could show people that he was skilful.

Here's is Wilt's take on this.

''If I just went out and took it to the basket every time I'd have averaged 60 to 65 points a game''.

And I am seriously starting to think that Wilt's being truthful when he says that.



If you watch the YouTube footage of the game in which the Bucks ended LA's 33 game winning streak.

Going on memory, at about the seven-minute mark of that footage, Kareem "sucker punches" Happy Hairston.

Wilt storms over to assist Hairston and Kareem retreats to the corner.

On the very next play, the Lakers inbound the ball to a 35-year-old Wilt, who just blows right thru a helpless Kareem for an easy basket.

Clearly, had Wilt played with that sort of anger during his career then well then he would have dominated even more and won more rings.

Wilt was very self conscious about how he was portrayed by the media. That's one of the reasons why he led the league in assists one year by passing too much.


If he had more Shaq level anger in him he would have played to his true potential.


Just smash every hand into the basket and dunk on people.



Having said that, just a few more free throws and he wins more championships and people forget about his free throw shooting woes and being "too nice".

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt was very self conscious about how he was portrayed by the media. That's one of the reasons why he led the league in assists one year by passing too much.


If he had more Shaq level anger in him he would have played to his true potential.


Just smash every hand into the basket and dunk on people.



Having said that, just a few more free throws and he wins more championships and people forget about his free throw shooting woes and being "too nice".


Wilt indeed was very self-conscious about how he was portrayed by the media that's why he changed his playstyle so much throughout his career.


Before Alex Hannum molded him into a passer and defender.

Wilt led the NBA in points/ppg all 7 years he played and averaged an insane 39.6 PPG over that seven-year time span in the regular season.

Most Points 1960-1966:

Wilt: 21,486

Baylor: 14,238

Robertson: 13,998

West: 12,028

Pettit: 11,986



Also, it is interesting that when the 1970 Lakers made a 33-year-old Chamberlain the number 1 option until he tore his patella tendon.


He averaged over 32 PPG 56.5 TS.


From those stats and the fact that Wilt posted the highest-scoring games in 1967 1968 1969, we see that he easily could have kept averaging over 32 points a game for his entire prime had he desired to



Assuming that Wilt averages even a modest 28 PPG for the last seven seasons of his career that would get him to 37 thousand points.



Which would place him currently third on the all-time scoring list despite only playing 14 seasons.

In comparison, most of the players sitting in the top 5 all-time scoring list nowadays outside of Jordan all played 20 seasons each

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt along with Lebron are the two most talented players ever.

You put Wilt on those Boston teams in place of Russell and he fully buys into Red's system as he did with Sharman.

The NBA itself would have folded as the Celtics would have won just as many titles as they did with Russell, and it would have been even less competitive than it was.

As Russell even said himself when he was a commentator for CBS that a 35-year-old Wilt post knee injury on the Lakers was playing his role better than he ever did.



I think it is unfortunate that in 2022 the media still feels the need to denigrate Chamberlain and his achievements to prop up guys like Curry.

[iamgine]

Wilt is often portrayed as a demigod mythical figure. Like Bruce Lee. Unlike Bruce lee though, there are actual footages of FULL Wilt games from the 60s. Just watch a couple and anyone can see for themselves how he actually plays.

[8Ball]

Wilt along with Lebron are the two most talented players ever.

You put Wilt on those Boston teams in place of Russell and he fully buys into Red's system as he did with Sharman.

The NBA itself would have folded as the Celtics would have won just as many titles as they did with Russell, and it would have been even less competitive than it was.

As Russell even said himself when he was a commentator for CBS that a 35-year-old Wilt post knee injury on the Lakers was playing his role better than he ever did.



I think it is unfortunate that in 2022 the media still feels the need to denigrate Chamberlain and his achievements to prop up guys like Curry.

I do agree that Wilt was a better basketball talent than Russell.

20 year old Wilt is probably getting drafted 1st overall in the NBA today.

20 year old russell might not get drafted in the 1st round.


We can play this game where we got back 30 years, year by year, and we decide whether we take the #1 NBA draft that year, 20 year old Wilt, or 20 year old Russell.

I am not sure Russell would get picked.

[kawhileonard2]

69 Wilt only averaged 11.7 ppg that series.

[warriorfan]

They both pale in comparison to 2011

[warriorfan]

I do agree that Wilt was a better basketball talent than Russell.

20 year old Wilt is probably getting drafted 1st overall in the NBA today.

20 year old russell might not get drafted in the 1st round.


We can play this game where we got back 30 years, year by year, and we decide whether we take the #1 NBA draft that year, 20 year old Wilt, or 20 year old Russell.

I am not sure Russell would get picked.

Russell wouldn’t get picked in the first round?

Lol wut

[guy]

Its pretty incredible how terrible of a FT shooter Wilt was. He's probably the worst ATG free throw shooter, even if we are just going by numbers relative to his era. He shot 38% over 6 finals. Russell shot 61% over 12 finals. Shaq shot 48% over 6 finals. Seriously, 1/11 in a game 7? And thats not even his worse finals? And maybe I'm wrong, but unlike what they did with Shaq, I'm pretty sure they weren't using a "Hack-a-Wilt" strategy back then.

[JBSptfn]

I believe Billy Cunningham was also out in that series vs Boston in '68, to me his losses in '69 & '70 are worse.

Yes, and the 68 ECF was around the time when MLK was assasinated, which may have weighed heavily on some of the players' minds.

[Axe]

Wilt was very self conscious about how he was portrayed by the media. That's one of the reasons why he led the league in assists one year by passing too much.


If he had more Shaq level anger in him he would have played to his true potential.


Just smash every hand into the basket and dunk on people.



Having said that, just a few more free throws and he wins more championships and people forget about his free throw shooting woes and being "too nice".
If only he was also a talented playmaker like his perennial rival russell ever was. His offensive numbers would have seen a significant drop from his usual ones tho but on the other hand, that would have translated into more rings in his resume bt.