Someone figured out what Jordan's numbers would be at point guard for his career

[3ba11]

.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uwJD3gt3zDs&t=07m28s


The creator of the video took the difference in Jordan's point guard and shooting guard numbers from 89' and applied this difference to Jordan's career numbers.

Using this sound logic, Jordan's career numbers are 27/7/7, however a commenter in the chat pointed out that the video's assist numbers were wrong, so it's actually 27/7/8 and 29/7/8 if we look at his Bulls' career only

[1987_Lakers]

Thinking basketball >> That guy

[3ba11]

Thinking basketball >> That guy


Thinking Basketball showed that Jordan made the 89' and 90' ECF with 0 percentile casts (better than 0% of casts, aka the worst cast in the league).

Even when Jordan 3-peated from 91-93', he only had the 8th best cast in the league (75th percentile), while his 2nd three-peat casts were literally among the worst in the league.

Jordan's on-off net rating from 88-90' or the 2nd three-peat was equal or better than Shaq and Lebron's best stretches.. This is despite the fact that the stat punishes players who are good enough to play within a good brand of ball that boosts teammate performance (and the stat rewards players that can only play a weaker brand of ball that hurts teammate performance)

[1987_Lakers]

He also showed LeBron was a superior passer than MJ.

His tendency to pass up open teammates prompted me to track just how frequently he missed opportunities to create for them.2 From 1985-88, he created shots for teammates only slightly more than he passed them over (6 plays per 100, in line with his traditional box creation estimate).3 His wild forays into multiple defenders yielded a woeful efficiency of 0.59 points per attempt on such plays. Ironically, some of the most efficient offense is generated by simply passing to open players, and he missed layup opportunities as well as spot-up shooters with regularity:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTq8JDXZ5bs&feature=emb_title


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za-1HILs-6U&feature=emb_title

LeBron doesn't miss passes like that.

And to add.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvbXU4p3hDI

:lol

[3ba11]

He also showed LeBron was a superior passer than MJ.

His tendency to pass up open teammates prompted me to track just how frequently he missed opportunities to create for them.2 From 1985-88, he created shots for teammates only slightly more than he passed them over (6 plays per 100, in line with his traditional box creation estimate).3 His wild forays into multiple defenders yielded a woeful efficiency of 0.59 points per attempt on such plays. Ironically, some of the most efficient offense is generated by simply passing to open players, and he missed layup opportunities as well as spot-up shooters with regularity:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTq8JDXZ5bs&feature=emb_title

LeBron doesn't miss passes like that.

And to add.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvbXU4p3hDI

:lol


That's subjective garbage - no one can decide that "Lebron passed up an open man on 6 of 100 possessions"

That's subjective garbage and completely fake numbers

I didn't know that Thinking Basketball made those videos because they're obviously false and make his other video false (that I commented on in the previous post).. I always knew they were fake numbers because the NBA's tracking machines don't even track that shit - because you CAN'T track it - it's subjective

It's a shame that anyone would think people would buy that but that's the absurd world we live in.. People believe obvious lies because they aren't educated or were poorly educated

Ultimately, Jordan averaged more individual assists in the playoffs before the pace and space era (pre-2015) and also had superior TEAM assists because he was good enough to play within a good brand of ball.. Lebron has low team assists and a brand that is horrific on the Finals level (woat Finals record in 3-poibter history)

[1987_Lakers]

That's subjective garbage - no one can decide that "Lebron passed up an open man on 6 of 100 possessions"

That's subjective garbage and completely fake numbers

I didn't know that Thinking Basketball made those videos because they're obviously false and make his other video false (that I commented on in the previous post).. I always knew they were fake numbers because the NBA's tracking machines don't even track that shit - because you CAN'T track it - it's subjective

It's a shame that anyone would think people would buy that but that's the absurd world we live in.. People believe obvious lies because they aren't educated or were poorly educated

Ultimately, Jordan averaged more individual assists in the playoffs before the pace and space era (pre-2015) and also had superior TEAM assists because he was good enough to play within a good brand of ball.. Lebron has low team assists and a brand that is horrific on the Finals level (woat Finals record in 3-poibter history)

Yes, Thinking Basketball aka Ben Taylor made those vids I posted. He's done a great job educating fans about history. His youtube channel already closing in on 500k subs, very high for a guy who mostly talks about NBA history.

[3ba11]

Yes, Thinking Basketball aka Ben Taylor made those vids I posted. He's done a great job educating fans about history. His youtube channel already closing in on 500k subs, very high for a guy who mostly talks about NBA history.


There are no stats that determine how often a player missed the open man - if you can't understand that then I feel sorry for you.. There must be a lot of things in life that bamboozle you

Ben Taylor is an obvious liar that relies on dumb people to fall for it

Thanks for posting those videos because they're so obviously egregious and fake that it confirms the falseness of his more recent videos that appear more legitimate due to improved production quality (apparently he got better at his fraud)...

[3ba11]

Lebron is literally a dumb player that never evolved out of playground style or AAU-style "heliocentric" offenses that revolve around 1 player and have low team assists..

He literally isn't capable of high team assists because he lacks the ability to be an assist target (off-ball) and needs to pound the rock for half the shot-clock to get an assist - this is unskilled, dumb basketball.. It's good for stats but horrible for maximizing a team's ceiling (never a dynasty REGARDLESS OF CAST)

[1987_Lakers]

There are no stats that determine how often a player missed the open man - if you can't understand that then I feel sorry for you.. There must be a lot of things in life that bamboozle you

Ben Taylor is an obvious liar that relies on dumb people to fall for it

Thanks for posting those videos because they're so obviously egregious and fake that it confirms the falseness of his more recent videos that appear more legitimate due to improved production quality (apparently he got better at his fraud)...

He's not making anything up, it's well chronicled that MJ often ignored his teammates early in his career, but keep living in a fantasy land where stats is all that matters.

[3ba11]

He's not making anything up, it's well chronicled that MJ often ignored his teammates early in his career, but keep living in a fantasy land where stats is all that matters.


It's hilarious because during the exact period that Ben Liar says MJ was missing all these open teammates, he was averaging more assists than Lebron!!!!!

Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff careers (85-93' vs 06-14') before Curry's pace and space era made offense easier for everyone

So I wouldn't believe Ben Liar if I were you... :no:.. :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

It's hilarious because during the exact period that Ben Liar says MJ was missing all these open teammates, he was averaging more assists than Lebron!!!!!

Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff careers (85-93' vs 06-14') before Curry's pace and space era made offense easier for everyone

So I wouldn't believe Ben Liar if I were you... :no:.. :oldlol:

That's cool, now lets look at what they averaged in their careers instead of nitpicking years. I can nitpick LeBron's playoff assists from '06-'10 (before this pace and space era you speak of) and his assist numbers are higher than MJ from '85-'91.

Career APG
LeBron: 7.4
MJ: 5.3

Career playoff APG
LeBron: 7.2
MJ: 5.7

[Johnny32]

his numbers would be 0 rings. jordone wasn't capable of having such a role on a championship contender.

[1987_Lakers]

Lets nitpick their assist playoff numbers when both were in their 30's.

'16-'21 LeBron: 8.3 APG
'95-'98 MJ: 4.2

Yikes, pretty much double the assists. :oldlol:

[3ba11]

That's cool, now lets look at what they averaged in their careers instead of nitpicking years. I can nitpick LeBron's playoff assists from '06-'10 (before this pace and space era you speak of) and his assist numbers are higher than MJ from '85-'91.

Career APG
LeBron: 7.4
MJ: 5.3

Career playoff APG
LeBron: 7.2
MJ: 5.7


During the exact time frame that Ben Liar specified, Jordan was averaging more assists than Lebron

So according to Ben Liar, Jordan was missing open teammates on 8 of 100 possessions but still getting more assists than Lebron!!!!

For Mr. Liar's data to be true, Lebron had to miss even MORE open teammates than Jordan

And the career numbers are affected by the rule changes around 2016 and Curry's pace and space era - Jordan averaged more assists before these changes despite playing off-ball....and he obviously averaged more as a point guard and was far superior to Lebron as a point guard (as a ball-dominator)

[Hey Yo]

Jordon had to change his entire mindset and the way he played the game in order to get high assist counts.


James had to change nothing. It just came natural to him being able to make the right passes.

[1987_Lakers]

During the exact time frame that Ben Liar specified, Jordan was averaging more assists than Lebron

So according to Ben Liar, Jordan was missing open teammates on 8 of 100 possessions but still getting more assists than Lebron!!!!

For Mr. Liar's data to be true, Lebron had to miss even MORE open teammates than Jordan

And the career numbers are affected by the rule changes around 2016 and Curry's pace and space era - Jordan averaged more assists before these changes despite playing off-ball....and he obviously averaged more as a point guard and was far superior to Lebron as a point guard (as a ball-dominator)

You're too dumb to realize the late 80's played at a faster pace compared to '06-'13, which could inflate stats. But that's besides the point, if you simply watched the two play, you would know LeBron had superior court vision than MJ and would often make the right pass.

Westbrook also averaged 10 apg at one point, but nobody was calling him a better passer than LeBron & CP3 when he finished ahead of them in apg in 2017. That's the problem with you, you rely so much on stats without ever watching a game.

[3ba11]

Jordon had to change his entire mindset and the way he played the game in order to get high assist counts.


James had to change nothing. It just came natural to him being able to make the right passes.


The first time Jordan played point guard at 26 years old, he was better than Lebron ever was despite an entire career at the position

So Jordan was the basketball natural that could be the best point guard ever or shoot like Curry because he was challenged to do so (92' Finals)

Jordan could literally do whatever he wanted on the basketball court

Btw, the fact that Lebron can't average 6-8 assists OFF-BALL like Jordan or Bird confirms that he's inferior

[1987_Lakers]

"Kyrie Irving averaged more APG than Ginobili, he's obviously the better passer". - 3ball

:oldlol:

[3ba11]

"Kyrie Irving averaged more APG than Ginobili, he's obviously the better passer". - 3ball

:oldlol:


You have it backwards

Lebron is the guy that employs a ball-dominant,, playground or AAU brand of ball (Luka-ball), which lacks the teammate development, fits and brand of ball to win organically... Since he can't win organically, he must be a talent-based winner (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy)

So Lebron is the one that gets his assists by dominating the ball and playing an inferior brand of ball.

He can't average 6-8 assists OFF-BALL like Bird or Jordan - he needs to dominate the ball like a playground player to get assists.. This fact alone makes Bird and MJ far superior to Lebron.. Anyone can get assists by playing a ball-dominator role and Jordan did this better than Lebron, while also being capable of Bird-ball (GOAT-ball.. aka 6-8 apg off-ball)

[1987_Lakers]

You have it backwards

Lebron is the guy that employs a ball-dominant,, playground or AAU brand of ball (Luka-ball), which lacks the teammate development, fits and brand of ball to win organically... Since he can't win organically, he must be a talent-based winner (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy)

So you're saying LeBron who was ball-dominant and didn't allow teammate development somehow beat a 73 win team in the Finals with GOAT level ball-movement and a Spurs team in 2013 who also had great ball-movement?

Sounds impressive to me.

[Hey Yo]

The first time Jordan played point guard at 26 years old, he was better than Lebron ever was despite an entire career at the position

So Jordan was the basketball natural that could be the best point guard ever or shoot like Curry because he was challenged to do so (92' Finals)

Jordan could literally do whatever he wanted on the basketball court

Btw, the fact that Lebron can't average 6-8 assists OFF-BALL like Jordan or Bird confirms that he's inferior

My post was referring to the short time he played point guard when he was gunning for assists to prove a point to the fans. He changed his entire game just to rack up assists.

James didn't have to.

[1987_Lakers]

My post was referring to the short time he played point guard when he was gunning for assists to prove a point to the fans. He changed his entire game just to rack up assists.

James didn't have to.

Bingo, Wilt changed his style of play and led the league in assists one year, but most of his passes were stationary, he averaged more APG than Walton did during his peak, but if you watched both play, you would know Walton had GOAT level vision while Wilt was kinda average at best.

[8Ball]

Lets nitpick their assist playoff numbers when both were in their 30's.

'16-'21 LeBron: 8.3 APG
'95-'98 MJ: 4.2

Yikes, pretty much double the assists. :oldlol:

Not even 99% of jordan fans would ever argue that jordan was a better playmaker.

[8Ball]

Jordan's passing ability is at the same level as Kyrie Irving.

And they have about same amount of assists. 5.7 to jordan's 5.3 apg.

[3ba11]

My post was referring to the short time he played point guard when he was gunning for assists to prove a point to the fans. He changed his entire game just to rack up assists.

James didn't have to.


Jordan averaged 30, yet he was gunning for assists?

I thought he was gunning for points?

A point guard's job is gunning for assists and Lebron does it more than Jordan by dominating to ball more than Harden

Remember when Harden averaged 36 and dominated the ball an absurd amount??.. Lebron dominated the ball 20-30% more than that on numerous Playoff runs (time of possession)

So Lebron is the ball-dominator that guns for assists his entire career, while MJ only did it for 25 games in 89' because the coach asked him to.

[Axe]

Not even 99% of jordan fans would ever argue that jordan was a better playmaker.
He was actually a ballhog during the early years of his career and his team became better each year the more the ball got out of his hands.

[3ba11]

He was actually a ballhog during the early years of his career and his team became better each year the more the ball got out of his hands.


Young Jordan averaged more assist than Lebron without dominating the ball, so Grant and Pippen grew by leaps and bounds alongside him, while Hughes and Jamison were destroyed alongside Lebron 's ball-dominance

:confusedshrug:

So you're just regurgitating false narratives used by media.. There's so many false narratives pushed by the media because these oversimplified narrativees make their job easier

[3ba11]

He was actually a ballhog during the early years of his career and his team became better each year the more the ball got out of his hands.


The ball was never taken out of Jordan's hands because he led Pippen in assists for their Finals career, playoff career and regular season career..

And he was scoring champ for every title, including 41 ppg in the 93' Finals or 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals, or the highest shooting volume in the 98' Finals

So the ball was never taken out of Jordan's hands and you're just making shit up... Jordan average 11 apg in the 91' Finals - that's how they beat Magic - so again, you're lying, which means Lebron is a massive fraud just like I said




He was actually a ballhog during the early years of his career and his team became better each year the more the ball got out of his hands.


The ball should be taken out of Lebron's hands - if Lebron dominated the ball less and could dominate in a ball movement system, he would win more and he wouldn't have the worst Finals record in 3-pointer history.. Unfortunately, he isn't capable of playing off-ball and forces coach's into letting him hog the assists - he forces coaches to play a heliocentric offenses that revolves around 1 guy and yields low team assists.

Again, you're just regurgitating false narratives used by media.. There's so many false narratives pushed by the media because these oversimplified narratives make their job easier

[Axe]

1-9

No pip, no chip.

[8Ball]

He was actually a ballhog during the early years of his career and his team became better each year the more the ball got out of his hands.

Correct. Here was HoopsNY's analysis a few days ago:


I'm going through each season to see how MJ's teammates did when he attempted 15 or fewer FGA (ended up using a few seasons with less than 16 or 20 FGA):

1991: 12 games | Only 2 players had games with more than 22 points (Paxson 26, Pippen 28). Grant was mostly between 6-17 points.

1992: 8 games | Pippen had two 23 point games, a 27 and 29 point game, BJ had a 16 and 18 pt game, Grant was again between 6-17 points.

*1993: 8 games | More of the same

*1995: 6 games | Pippen had one 29 point game, Kukoc had 20, 16, and 19 point games

1996: 6 games | Pippen had a 30, 27, and 22 pt game, the rest were pretty bad; rest of the cast was more of the same, 10-16 pt performances.

**1997: 8 games | Pippen had a 26 point game, Kukoc an 18 point game, 24 point game, Longley had two 16 point games

1998: 8 games | Pippen had a 29 point game , Kukoc had a 21 and 19 point game, Longley a 21 and 16 point game

Chicago's records during this time:

1991: 11-1 (faced 5 playoff teams, rest were terrible)
1992: 8-0 (faced 4 playoff teams, 4 terrible teams)
1993: 8-0 (faced 1 playoff team)
1995: 6-0 (faced 4 playoff teams, but two of them were against the 36 win Celtics)
1996: 21-1 when MJ took less than 20 FGA
1997: 7-1 (All playoff teams with the exception of one)
1998: 8-0 (2 of the 8 teams were playoff teams)

A further look with MJ's FGA using 20 more or less FGA:

'91 >20 FGA: 42-20
'91 <20 FGA: 19-1

'92 >20 FGA: 43-13
'92 <20 FGA: 24-0

'93 >20 FGA: 48-22
'93 <20 FGA: 8-0

'95 >20 FGA: 7-4
'95 <20 FGA: 6-0

'96 >20 FGA: 51-9
'96 <20 FGA: 21-1

'97 >20 FGA: 49-11
'97 <20 FGA: 21-2

'98 >20 FGA: 45-17
'98 <20 FGA: 17-3

MJ '91-'98 >20 FGA: 285-96 (.748%)
MJ '91-'98 <20 FGA: 116-7 (.945%)

My take: Jordan was a ball hog. Chicago would have done better in the regular season with him shooting less. I mean got damn...they won 95% of their games when MJ shot the ball 19 or fewer times. These numbers are utterly staggering. Chicago might have had a couple 80 win seasons if Jordan used his teammates the way LeBron uses his.

At the same time, Chicago's cast wasn't producing the way that people are thinking. Judging from the samples where MJ generally shot less than 15 (and some less than 20) FGA a game, guys like Pippen, Grant, and Kukoc weren't blowing up the box score.

So both are true. Chicago's cast wasn't great offensively, but at the same time, MJ didn't maximize the talents and abilities of his teammates. I feel Kukoc could have been used more, as well as Paxon, Armstrong, and Longley. i don't think Pippen would have done more. 1994 and 1995 pretty much proved that.






*1993 and 1995 I used fewer than 20 FGA since the data sample was small with 15 or fewer FGA.

*1997 I used 16 FGA or fewer cause it was only three games with 15 or fewer, but I got lazy and didn't wanna use all less than 20 since it was 22 games in total lol

[Full Court]

He's not making anything up, it's well chronicled that MJ often ignored his teammates early in his career,

This is true, but Jordan fixed his defect and three-peated twice. Bronie has never fixed his defects.

[ShawkFactory]

This is true, but Jordan fixed his defect and three-peated twice. Bronie has never fixed his defects.

It has nothing to do with Lebron. It’s about OP blatantly ignoring facts and rewriting history to fit his narrative.

Something I’m sure you’re aware he does.

[3ba11]

He's not making anything up, it's well chronicled that MJ often ignored his teammates early in his career, but keep living in a fantasy land where stats is all that matters.


The word "ignored" in this case refers to having no help

Given his weak cast, young Jordan passed as much as he COULD, which was more than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff career.

If Jordan ignored teammates more than warranted, then why did Bird say that Jordan had Woolridge playing at an all-star level, while Oakley achieved his career highs and Pippen/Grant grew by leaps and bounds alongside Jordan (before Phil got there)???

So it's just a false narrative put forth by the media because they need SIMPLE narratives for their job that Joe the Plumber can digest..

Otoh, Lebron is the ball-hog that never developed a single young player from low producer to viable producer - zero teammate development... And he craters ready-made stars or high producers like Jamison, Hughes, Ingram, Westbrook, Love, Bosh, Clarkson, Rose, Kuzma and many more.

So the evidence and historical record of teammates playing to capacity and growing alongside Jordan refutes the selfish premise - young Jordan had to shoot that much due to a weak cast and he had to literally grow teammates to a point that he could shoot a little less.. The reality is that he had the highest volume for the 92', 93' and 98' runs, while leading the league scoring for every title - so he always had to carry the Bulls despite growing his teammates.

Btw, HoopsNY's data proves that Jordan had to shoot that much.. All players like Lebron, Kobe and MJ win more when they shoot less than 20 times, but they can only shoot less when teammates have it going.. Jordan simply had lower-producing supporting cast than Lebron or Kobe, so he shot more.. And only MJ consistently shot well at those volumes

[1987_Lakers]

The word "ignored" in this case refers to having no help



https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=MTq8JDXZ5bs&feature=emb_title

A random high school player would have easily scored there if MJ simply passed it.

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=MTq8JDXZ5bs&feature=emb_title

A random high school player would have easily scored there if MJ simply passed it.


Given his weak cast, young Jordan passed as much as he COULD, which was more than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff career.

If Jordan ignored teammates more than warranted, then why did Bird say that Jordan had Woolridge playing at an all-star level, while Oakley achieved his career highs and Pippen/Grant grew by leaps and bounds alongside Jordan (before Phil got there)???

Otoh, Lebron is the ball-hog that never developed a single young player from low producer to viable producer - zero teammate development... And he craters ready-made stars or high producers like Jamison, Hughes, Ingram, Westbrook, Love, Bosh, Clarkson, Rose, Kuzma and many more.

[hateraid]

That's subjective garbage - no one can decide that "Lebron passed up an open man on 6 of 100 possessions"

That's subjective garbage and completely fake numbers

I didn't know that Thinking Basketball made those videos because they're obviously false and make his other video false (that I commented on in the previous post).. I always knew they were fake numbers because the NBA's tracking machines don't even track that shit - because you CAN'T track it - it's subjective

It's a shame that anyone would think people would buy that but that's the absurd world we live in.. People believe obvious lies because they aren't educated or were poorly educated

Ultimately, Jordan averaged more individual assists in the playoffs before the pace and space era (pre-2015) and also had superior TEAM assists because he was good enough to play within a good brand of ball.. Lebron has low team assists and a brand that is horrific on the Finals level (woat Finals record in 3-poibter history)

I lol'd reading subjective garbage

[3ba11]

I lol'd reading subjective garbage


Here's a statistical fact:

During the years that everyone says Jordan was selfish (and the years specified by Thinking Basketball), Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron!!!

So Jordan missed the open man on 8 of 100 possessions but still averaged more assist than Lebron, according to Thinking Basketball.

So it's bullshit, but this is obvious from the jump... Again, it's impossible to track how often someone misses the open man because "open man" is subjective.. People will frequently differ on the best course of action on a play or how open someone is.. There might be dozens of different courses of action or plays and a player isn't required to hit the first open man they see.

So this idea that Ben Liar went through every game and possession to determine how often Jordan missed the open man is absurd.

[bizil]

I think on a peak-prime and GOAT basis MJ is superior to Bron as a player. In terms of players who think SCORE FIRST, MJ is one of the best passers of all time. But Bron is SIMPLY on another level of passer than MJ. For players who average 27-30 PPG, Bron, Bird, and Oscar ARE IN THEIR OWN LEAGUE as passers. It's very rare to average those kinds of points with that type of passing gift.

[Round Mound]

I think on a peak-prime and GOAT basis MJ is superior to Bron as a player. In terms of players who think SCORE FIRST, MJ is one of the best passers of all time. But Bron is SIMPLY on another level of passer than MJ. For players who average 27-30 PPG, Bron, Bird, and Oscar ARE IN THEIR OWN LEAGUE as passers. It's very rare to average those kinds of points with that type of passing gift.

This

[Johnny32]

Jordan averaged 30, yet he was gunning for assists?

I thought he was gunning for points?

wrong again, window licker. jordone was stat padding triple doubles to "prove" he wasn't a one dimensional chucker and had an all around game like magic and bird. lol so many posers pretending here.

[3ba11]

I think on a peak-prime and GOAT basis MJ is superior to Bron as a player. In terms of players who think SCORE FIRST, MJ is one of the best passers of all time. But Bron is SIMPLY on another level of passer than MJ. For players who average 27-30 PPG, Bron, Bird, and Oscar ARE IN THEIR OWN LEAGUE as passers. It's very rare to average those kinds of points with that type of passing gift.


you're praising 27/7/7 but only MJ could get 43/7/7

Or 45/10/7

Or 40/6/8 (against the #1 SRS)... Or 44/6/6 against the champs and #1 defense.. or 41/9/6 in the Finals

only jordan could average 30 for a career.

Jordan's scoring ability and burden was unprecedented, so his assists can't be compared to guys like Lebron, Bird or Oscar, who all won chips with garbage stats by comparison

Compared to Jordan, 7-10 assists isn't impressive if your scoring burden is only 25-30 ppg




I think on a peak-prime and GOAT basis MJ is superior to Bron as a player. In terms of players who think SCORE FIRST, MJ is one of the best passers of all time. But Bron is SIMPLY on another level of passer than MJ. For players who average 27-30 PPG, Bron, Bird, and Oscar ARE IN THEIR OWN LEAGUE as passers. It's very rare to average those kinds of points with that type of passing gift.


^^^ That's false because the historical record shows that Jordan was the best high-scoring passer in history and did so at the highest of levels:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-07-2022/gsKVwn.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/GjUUon.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/nDBX5i.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-24-2022/bPfHoS.gif


But ball-dominance requires more help and wins less, so MJ preferred to have elite jumpshooting skill and play off-bal like Curry, Bird, Kobe, and Kawhi - this skillet fits the most sophisticated offenses (ball movement, high team assists), which yields the best team ceilings/Finals records..

Otoh, Magic and Lebron are 9-10 in the Finals with mostly super-teams.. Is there any better evidence that their skillset needs more help and yields weaker teams/team ceiling?