The Pippen -Kemp argument

[Duderonomy]

As most know Pippen was nearly traded for Kemp in 1994 until the trade was called off.

I still think the Bulls keep winning with Kemp.
But I don't see the Sonics making more than a finals appearance in that stacked west.

Since Kemp had a better peak and equal talent to Pip, then why is Pip considered a top 35 player of all-time while Kemp is somewhere in the 75-80 range? Does having MJ as a teammate really mean 50 spots on the GOAT list?

[3ba11]

As most know Pippen was nearly traded for Kemp in 1994 until the trade was called off.

I still think the Bulls keep winning with Kemp.
But I don't see the Sonics making more than a finals appearance in that stacked west.

Since Kemp had a better peak and equal talent to Pip, then why is Pip considered a top 35 player of all-time while Kemp is somewhere in the 75-80 range? Does having MJ as a teammate really mean 50 spots on the GOAT list?


Good point. I'm interested to hear what others have to say

[Full Court]

NOBODY in the 90s ever thought Pippen was better than Kemp. The only low-IQ "fans" that think so now are Bronies in damage control mode.

[pandiani17]

Career-wise Pippen lasted a lot longer that Kemp at a high-level. Also, I don't know if Kemp would fit in that well in the triangle, it was a good thing for the Bulls that the trade was called off. Pippen was made to play in that system, we saw that he didn't win anything outside of Chicago. Therefore, we can say that being in Chicago played a big part in Pippen having the career he had. The impact of MJ in that, which is this thread's aim, I don't know.

[Reggie43]

They were the same level of players prime for prime imo with Pippen being slightly better but if you swap them up I think Kemp would have been a better fit for the Bulls because they gain a legit post presence to protect the rim and get easy baskets inside which were the only real weakness those bulls teams had.

[Real Men Wear Green]

If you know the history you know that Kemp had a drug problem and weight issues. Kemp put up a numbers for a few more seasons after he was traded from the Sonics but he was getting fat and his offensive efficiency and defense suffered. And after the Cleveland years he was nowhere near the same player. May as well have retired.

[3ba11]

NOBODY in the 90s ever thought Pippen was better than Kemp. The only low-IQ "fans" that think so now are Bronies in damage control mode.


Complete false

Everyone thought Kemp was better

The Bulls' thought Kemp was better and tried to trade Pippen for him... Krause was literally begging Seattle to take Pippen but the Seattle fan base was like hell no.. that's literally what happened and it's been documented

Furthermore, no one respected Pippen on the street or outside the media bubble that is influenced by players in the winning spotlight

[Hey Yo]

Complete false

Everyone thought Kemp was better

The Bulls' thought Kemp was better and tried to trade Pippen for him... Krause was literally begging Seattle to take Pippen but the Seattle fan base was like hell no.. that's literally what happened and it's been documented

Furthermore, no one respected Pippen on the street or outside the media bubble that is influenced by players in the winning spotlight
MJ caught wind of the possible trade and told Krause he'd never come back to the Bulls if he traded Pippen.

Hence the reason Krause called off negotiations and the trade never went down.

[3ba11]

MJ caught wind of the possible trade and told Krause he'd never come back to the Bulls if he traded Pippen.

Hence the reason Krause called off negotiations and the trade never went down.


Krause said this in a TV interview on the Last Dance

So you're wrong and mixing up the dates - Jordan said he wouldn't come back in 99' without Pippen and Phil (didn't want to start over at 35)

[Hey Yo]

Nope.... not getting dates mixed up.

[3ba11]

Nope.... not getting dates mixed up.


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2022/v_Ztuk.gif

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2022/7gleWw.gif

[Hey Yo]

Easy to say waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy after the fact.

[3ba11]

Easy to say waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy after the fact.


The narrative that the Seattle fans refused to part with Kemp is widely reported

Otoh, nobody viewed Pippen as critical in the 90's - that's a narrative that started 30 years after the fact.. Isiah, Laimbeer, Reggie Miller and many more said tha 91-93' Bulls were a 1-man team

Furthermore, Jordan was cool with Pippen for Kemp and pushed for it

And Krause said in the Last Dance that he was offering Seattle an additional million in cash with each successive counter-offer.. Did you not watch the Last Dance?. Educate yourself son

[FilmyCogTurner]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2022/v_Ztuk.gif

It's important to note that Jordan gave this endorsement while retired and advised the trade because he felt it would be a benefit to the Sonics because Pippen would make the players around the team better while Kemp fathered children and did not.

[Duderonomy]

If you know the history you know that Kemp had a drug problem and weight issues. Kemp put up a numbers for a few more seasons after he was traded from the Sonics but he was getting fat and his offensive efficiency and defense suffered. And after the Cleveland years he was nowhere near the same player. May as well have retired.

Kemp would have been motivated by Jordan and Phil, he wouldn't have washed up as fast. Pippen has a couple years of longevity on him.

Edit: I rechecked GOAT'S old list Kemp didn't make the 100 while Pip was 26th. Also Kemp didn't make the 75th team. I don't think they were worlds apart but any all-star sidekick would be amazing with MJ.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Kemp would have been motivated by Jordan and Phil, he wouldn't have washed up as fast. Pippen has a couple years of longevity on him.

Edit: I rechecked GOAT'S old list Kemp didn't make the 100 while Pip was 26th. Also Kemp didn't make the 75th team. I don't think they were worlds apart but any all-star sidekick would be amazing with MJ.

There is no way that you can know Jordan and Jackson somehow keep Kemp sober. He's a grown man with a major issue. MJ isn't going to cure an addiction by being good at basketball.

[Reggie43]

I always figured that if Phil and Jordan could keep Rodman in check they could have done the same with similarly troubled players and squeeze out a few more prime/respectable seasons because they command that much respect.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I always figured that if Phil and Jordan could keep Rodman in check they could have done the same with similarly troubled players and squeeze out a few more prime/respectable seasons because they command that much respect.
Dennis Rodman did coke?

[Reggie43]

Dennis Rodman did coke?

So a goat level coach and player would have no effect on Kemp?

[outofstomach]

Easy to say waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy after the fact.
yeah you’re a ****ing idiot for sure :lol

[Real Men Wear Green]

So a goat level coach and player would have no effect on Kemp?
Most likely not. Drug abuse problems don't go away just because MJ had 50. The two things have nothing to do with each other.

[Round Mound]

Nope...there is a reason why MJ said he wouldn't come back to play if Pippen wasn't playing alongside him.

[Reggie43]

Most likely not. Drug abuse problems don't go away just because MJ had 50. The two things have nothing to do with each other.

Pretty sure prime Kemp performed pretty good on the court regardless of his problems or are we talking about teaming up Jordan with the Portland version?

[3ba11]

.

Pippen and Miller played the same playoff opponent 6 times:



R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage


Miller had numerous conference finals and Finals runs without a single all-star teammate, while Pippen was barely .500 in 95' before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat (pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs).




It's important to note that Jordan gave this endorsement while retired and advised the trade because he felt it would be a benefit to the Sonics because Pippen would make the players around the team better while Kemp fathered children and did not.


Who did Pippen make better?

Pippen was infact the rookie bum that needed a ton of improvement and improved alongside Jordan to a system player or above-average scorer at best..

Specifically, we know that Pippen will always perform far worse than Reggie Miller, since he was drastically outplayed by Miller against the same playoff opponent 5/5 times (100%) and he's the only guy that failed to reach peak-Horry level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals).

These are solid sample size and Pippen couldn't outplay Miller or peak-Horry 100% of the time.. The historical record shows that Pippen was an Iggy or Wiggins-caliber performer that was inflated to all-time status by the winning spotlight.

Ultimately, it's easier for GM's to build a team of cheap defenders, but this requires a 1st option that could carry the scoring load (defeat maximum defensive attention), aka Curry or MJ.. Otoh, guys like Luka or Lebron are too ball-dominant at carry-jobs volume to beat top teams, so they need star scoring (1b elite scorers) and can't win with secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen.

[SATAN]

As most know Pippen was nearly traded for Kemp in 1994 until the trade was called off.

I still think the Bulls keep winning with Kemp.
But I don't see the Sonics making more than a finals appearance in that stacked west.

Since Kemp had a better peak and equal talent to Pip, then why is Pip considered a top 35 player of all-time while Kemp is somewhere in the 75-80 range? Does having MJ as a teammate really mean 50 spots on the GOAT list?

Kemp never realized his true potential imo.

Despite Shawn's obvious potential I think Pippen was a better player than Kemp in the grand scheme of things. He was more mature and consistent in his role. More of a leader and less of a hot head. Kemp was my favorite player back then but Pippen was the perfect fit for the Bulls, particularly next to Michael.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Pretty sure prime Kemp performed pretty good on the court regardless of his problems or are we talking about teaming up Jordan with the Portland version?

This is not about prime Kemp. If it was I would be trying to analyze how what he did would fit in with the Bulls. This is about his drug and weight-fueled decline. He ended up leaving the Blazers for rehab because of how bad his situation had become. Of course Kemp was a megatalent. The way he played against the Bulls in the Finals it was obvious he could do whatever he wanted to anyone including Dennis Rodman who was possibly the best defensive forward of all time. But the Bulls would have had to deal with his drug and weight problems and there's no reason to think they can handle it any better than Seattle Cleveland or Portland.

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/cKS3B2.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2022/7D0vE4.gif






Kemp never realized his true potential imo.





But he still peaked higher than Pippen as a 1b team leader that could dominate the best players in the game with elite scoring and rebounding.

Otoh Pippen was never a 1b that could achieve elite stats and dominate the top players in the league...

And Pippen only reached his potential because of Jordan, according to Krause, Phil, Horace, BJ - everyone... He was nothing outside the dynasty chemistry that he grew up in (see the Rudy T picture above)




Kemp never realized his true potential imo.

Despite Shawn's obvious potential I think Pippen was a better player than Kemp in the grand scheme of things. He was more mature and consistent in his role. More of a leader and less of a hot head. Kemp was my favorite player back then but Pippen was the perfect fit for the Bulls, particularly next to Michael





HoopsNY proved that Jordan was literally unbeatable when Pippen averaged 22-28, which allowed Jordan to shoot less than 20 times.

So Jordan would've won more with a better-scoring cast... :confusedshrug:

Otoh, Jordan was perfect for Pippen because Pippen needed guys to carry the scoring load, especially in the clutch (above)

Outside the system and dynasty chemistry that he grew up in, Pippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score

[Real Men Wear Green]

he still peaked higher than Pippen as a 1b team leader that could dominate the best players in the game with elite scoring and rebounding. Kemp's highest scoring average was 20.5. Pippen had 3 seasons where he averaged more points and another where he averaged 20.2.

[Real Men Wear Green]

It's curious. "Elite" scoring Kemp had a career average of 14.6. Scottie Pippen who was supposedly being carried all the time had a career average of 16.1.

[Reggie43]

This is not about prime Kemp. If it was I would be trying to analyze how what he did would fit in with the Bulls. This is about his drug and weight-fueled decline. He ended up leaving the Blazers for rehab because of how bad his situation had become. Of course Kemp was a megatalent. The way he played against the Bulls in the Finals it was obvious he could do whatever he wanted to anyone including Dennis Rodman who was possibly the best defensive forward of all time. But the Bulls would have had to deal with his drug and weight problems and there's no reason to think they can handle it any better than Seattle Cleveland or Portland.

I know what you are saying but the problem is you are downplaying the effect of a great organization on these type of players getting maybe a few extra years of prime/serviceable play.

Its easy to imagine that Kemp would be more motivated to play for the Bulls with Phil and Jordan compared to playing for the Cavs, a team which gave a ton of mins to four rookies the first year he was there.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I know what you are saying but the problem is you are downplaying the effect of a great organization on these type of players getting maybe a few extra years of prime/serviceable play.

Its easy to imagine that Kemp would be more motivated to play for the Bulls with Phil and Jordan compared to playing for the Cavs, a team which gave a ton of mins to four rookies the first year he was there.
What player has the Bulls ever coached through a coke habit? Jordan isn't a counselor or therapist and even mental health and drug rehab professionals have high rates of failure dealing with addiction. There is no reason to think Jordan does better. Jordan is a basketball player. A great player likely the greatest player ever but being great at some athletic contest had nothing to do with helping Kemp. Young Kwame Brown was struggling in Washington nothing as bad as Kemps habit but he was having a hard time. Was Jordan able to help him? Allegedly Jordan's approach was being tough on him. Supposedly called him a "******." Is that going to cure a coke addiction? Jordan's focus is the game. As far as helping teammates he could tell a guy where they should stand on a play or cut and the teammates that wanted to work out with him early in the morning he brought along. What's he gonna do when Kemp parties until 5am and then sleeps until dinner? Nothing. We'll maybe he demands that the team trade Kemp. Maybe he puts up with him but he's far more likely to tell Krause to get rid of Kemp than to cure his addiction

[Reggie43]

What player has the Bulls ever coached through a coke habit? Jordan isn't a counselor or therapist and even mental health and drug rehab professionals have high rates of failure dealing with addiction. There is no reason to think Jordan does better. Jordan is a basketball player. A great player likely the greatest player ever but being great at some athletic contest had nothing to do with helping Kemp. Young Kwame Brown was struggling in Washington nothing as bad as Kemps habit but he was having a hard time. Was Jordan able to help him? Allegedly Jordan's approach was being tough on him. Supposedly called him a "******." Is that going to cure a coke addiction? Jordan's focus is the game. As far as helping teammates he could tell a guy where they should stand on a play or cut and the teammates that wanted to work out with him early in the morning he brought along. What's he gonna do when Kemp parties until 5am and then sleeps until dinner? Nothing. We'll maybe he demands that the team trade Kemp. Maybe he puts up with him but he's far more likely to tell Krause to get rid of Kemp than to cure his addiction

Not saying they would have totally rid of his demons but maybe get a few extra years of solid play before he succumbs to to his vices.

Another thing is you make it sound like that he was struggling through a coke addiction majority of his career but off the top of my head I think it was only towards the end of it.

[ShawkFactory]

.

Pippen and Miller played the same playoff opponent 6 times:



R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage


Miller had numerous conference finals and Finals runs without a single all-star teammate, while Pippen was barely .500 in 95' before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat (pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs).






Who did Pippen make better?

Pippen was infact the rookie bum that needed a ton of improvement and improved alongside Jordan to a system player or above-average scorer at best..

Specifically, we know that Pippen will always perform far worse than Reggie Miller, since he was drastically outplayed by Miller against the same playoff opponent 5/5 times (100%) and he's the only guy that failed to reach peak-Horry level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals).

These are solid sample size and Pippen couldn't outplay Miller or peak-Horry 100% of the time.. The historical record shows that Pippen was an Iggy or Wiggins-caliber performer that was inflated to all-time status by the winning spotlight.

Ultimately, it's easier for GM's to build a team of cheap defenders, but this requires a 1st option that could carry the scoring load (defeat maximum defensive attention), aka Curry or MJ.. Otoh, guys like Luka or Lebron are too ball-dominant at carry-jobs volume to beat top teams, so they need star scoring (1b elite scorers) and can't win with secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen.

This guys is throwing usage% out here now :lol

[FilmyCogTurner]

Who did Pippen make better?

Pippen was infact the rookie bum that needed a ton of improvement and improved alongside Jordan to a system player or above-average scorer at best..

Specifically, we know that Pippen will always perform far worse than Reggie Miller, since he was drastically outplayed by Miller against the same playoff opponent 5/5 times (100%) and he's the only guy that failed to reach peak-Horry level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals).

These are solid sample size and Pippen couldn't outplay Miller or peak-Horry 100% of the time.. The historical record shows that Pippen was an Iggy or Wiggins-caliber performer that was inflated to all-time status by the winning spotlight.

Ultimately, it's easier for GM's to build a team of cheap defenders, but this requires a 1st option that could carry the scoring load (defeat maximum defensive attention), aka Curry or MJ.. Otoh, guys like Luka or Lebron are too ball-dominant at carry-jobs volume to beat top teams, so they need star scoring (1b elite scorers) and can't win with secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen.

This was 1994 and Pippens team first approach was the reason why Jordan told George Karl to trade for Pippen. At first Karl loved the idea of trapping wings with GP and Pip but what really swayed Karl was how the other guys on the team would benefit from Pippens arrival.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Not saying they would have totally rid of his demons but maybe get a few extra years of solid play before he succumbs to to his vices.

Another thing is you make it sound like that he was struggling through a coke addiction majority of his career but off the top of my head I think it was only towards the end of it.
I don't know exactly how much coke he was doing or what the exact timeline was. But his decline was obvious and it wasnt just a guy getting old. At 30 which is still prime for a lot of players he shot 41.7%. At 31 he shot 40.7% and averaged 6.5 points. He could have been doing it for a while before then and that's when it just took his career over, I don't know. But even before the decline was so glaring it was most likely holding him back in ways that aren't so easily measured, like defense or even just something like being late and/or unfocused in practice.

And there is no reason to think the Bulls would get his life in order.

[Duderonomy]

I don't know exactly how much coke he was doing or what the exact timeline was. But his decline was obvious and it wasnt just a guy getting old. At 30 which is still prime for a lot of players he shot 41.7%. At 31 he shot 40.7% and averaged 6.5 points. He could have been doing it for a while before then and that's when it just took his career over, I don't know. But even before the decline was so glaring it was most likely holding him back in ways that aren't so easily measured, like defense or even just something like being late and/or unfocused in practice.

And there is no reason to think the Bulls would get his life in order.

Kemp's nba problems were being on a bad team and feeling he get screwed outta a big contract. Well Jordan wins and his running mate is going to get paid. If you don't think resolving that would give you a second wind, idk what to tell you....

[3ba11]

This guys is throwing usage% out here now :lol


That's to protect against you saying it was 1st option (Miller) vs 2nd option Pippen

Pippen still took more shots (usage).. That's what usage is - it's FGA + FTA + TO's

So again, how good will Pippen perform against a certain opponent? MUCH WORSE THAN MILLER (100% of the time).. And he isn't capable of reaching peak-Horry level in the Finals (0/6)

Ultimately, Pippen was an Iggy or Wiggins-caliber performer that was inflated to all-time status by the winning spotlight

[3ba11]

This was 1994 and Pippens team first approach was the reason why Jordan told George Karl to trade for Pippen. At first Karl loved the idea of trapping wings with GP and Pip but what really swayed Karl was how the other guys on the team would benefit from Pippens arrival.


You're making my point because we know for a fact that Jordan is the worst talent evaluator of all time

Literally

So he simply didn't know how much he was carrying the team - he just played ball and was happy to win with a 16 ppg sidekick with bad efficiency..

It's either that or he was trying to hustle Karl before the comeback from baseball..

I'll go with the former, which we know for certain (that MJ can't evaluate talent)

[ShawkFactory]

That's to protect against you saying it was 1st option (Miller) vs 2nd option Pippen

Pippen still took more shots (usage).. That's what usage is - it's FGA + FTA + TO's

So again, how good will Pippen perform against a certain opponent? MUCH WORSE THAN MILLER...

Pippen was an Iggy or Wiggins-caliber performer that was inflated to all-time status by the winning spotlight

Well that depends on what your reference is. If it's points and FG% (which in this specific argument that's the criteria for you) then sure.

If you choose to look at other things then it's a different conversation. I don't expect you to look at anything (or at least not mention anything) that will affect your narrative though. So carry on.

[3ba11]

Well that depends on what your reference is. If it's points and FG% (which in this specific argument that's the criteria for you) then sure.

If you choose to look at other things then it's a different conversation. I don't expect you to look at anything (or at least not mention anything) that will affect your narrative though. So carry on.



Defensive Ranking

91''Bulls............. 7th
91' Pistons........ 4th
91' Lakers.......... 5th

92' Bulls............ 4th
92' Knicks......... 1st
92' Blazers........ 2nd

93' Bulls............ 7th
93' Knicks......... 1st
93' Suns............ 9th


What help did the Bulls' have?

They had no rim protection and inferior defenses than their ECF or Finals opponents.

And their sidekick only got 5-6 apg, which is less than Porter, KJ, Penny, Stockton,Tim Hardaway or Payton

Furthermore, elite scoring help is the help that everyone in history needed - 1b help - only the GOAT didn't need this.. For example, Drexler needed Terry Porter to carry the Blazers to the 90' and 92' Finals.. Every 90's sidekick reached this 1b status of elite stats and domination except Pippen, who was a transition, hustle and system player.

Ultimately, it's easier for a GM to build a team of cheap defenders, but this requires a 1st option like Curry or Jordan that can carry the scoring load and win with secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen... Otoh, guys like Luka or Lebron are too ball-dominant at high scoring levels to beat top teams, so they need juggernaut scoring help like Wade, AD or Kyrie.

[ShawkFactory]

Defensive Ranking

91''Bulls............. 7th
91' Pistons........ 4th
91' Lakers.......... 5th

92' Bulls............ 4th
92' Knicks......... 1st
92' Blazers........ 2nd

93' Bulls............ 7th
93' Knicks......... 1st
93' Suns............ 9th


What help did the Bulls' have?

They had no rim protection and inferior defenses than their ECF or Finals opponents.

And their sidekick only got 5-6 apg, which is less than Porter, KJ, Penny, Stockton,Tim Hardaway or Payton

Furthermore, elite scoring help is the help that everyone in history needed - 1b help - only the GOAT didn't need this.. For example, Drexler needed Terry Porter to carry the Blazers to the 90' and 92' Finals.. Every 90's sidekick reached this 1b status of elite stats and domination except Pippen, who was a transition, hustle and system player.

Ultimately, it's easier for a GM to build a team of cheap defenders, but this requires a 1st option like Curry or Jordan that can carry the scoring load and win with secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen... Otoh, guys like Luka or Lebron are too ball-dominant at high scoring levels to beat top teams, so they need juggernaut scoring help like Wade, AD or Kyrie.

I don’t know what you’re talking about..

This post has nothing to do with what I said, or what you said before that.

[3ba11]

I don’t know what you’re talking about..

This post has nothing to do with what I said, or what you said before that.


You said the Bulls' had other kind of help aside from scoring help and I just showed you that they didn't (inferior defenses and inferior playmaking help), while also showing you that scoring help is the most important help that everyone in history needed

[FilmyCogTurner]

You're making my point because we know for a fact that Jordan is the worst talent evaluator of all time

Literally

So he simply didn't know how much he was carrying the team - he just played ball and was happy to win with a 16 ppg sidekick with bad efficiency..

It's either that or he was trying to hustle Karl before the comeback from baseball..

I'll go with the former, which we know for certain (that MJ can't evaluate talent)

You're reaching Alex Jones levels for ISH posting

https://i.imgflip.com/1a5plf.gif

If you're unable to take a reasonable position when the information is provided to you what good is it with other topics where the margins are slimmer?

:facepalm

[3ba11]

You're reaching Alex Jones levels for ISH posting

https://i.imgflip.com/1a5plf.gif

If you're unable to take a reasonable position when the information is provided to you what good is it with other topics where the margins are slimmer?

:facepalm


My argument is sound and you're deflecting

You probably have posts that say Jordan is a horrific judge of talent because everyone does ,- it's common knowledge

Don't make me dig up your old posts.. Although you don't have many posts, but anyone who does invariably called MJ a bad judge of talent

Ultimately, Jordan simply didn't know how much he was carrying the team - he just played ball and was happy to win with a 16 ppg sidekick with bad efficiency.

And again, Krause begged Seattle to take Pippen in 97' I believe - it was in the last dance doc

[ShawkFactory]

You said the Bulls' had other kind of help aside from scoring help and I just showed you that they didn't (inferior defenses and inferior playmaking help), while also showing you that scoring help is the most important help that everyone in history needed

I did not.

[3ba11]

I did not.


Yeah you did

Originally, I asked how good will Pippen play against a given opponent????.... the historical record says MUCH WORSE THAN MILLER (100% of the time)…

that was the original point that you tried to refute by saying I only listed scoring/efficiency and left out other things - so included defense and playmaking help, where the Bulls were also inferior. And I pointed out that scoring help is the biggest kind of help that everyone in history neede

[ShawkFactory]

You said the Bulls' had other kind of help aside from scoring help and I just showed you that they didn't (inferior defenses and inferior playmaking help), while also showing you that scoring help is the most important help that everyone in history needed

No, I said a comparison between Miller and Pippen than only includes scoring and efficiency would look different than if you included other aspects of basketball.

Which is why you chose to frame it the way you did. You aren't interested in a discussion that isn't loaded in your favor.

[ShawkFactory]

Yeah you did

Originally, I asked how good will Pippen play against a given opponent????.... the historical record says MUCH WORSE THAN MILLER (100% of the time)…

that was the original point that you tried to refute by saying I only listed scoring/efficiency and left out other things - so included defense and playmaking help, where the Bulls were also inferior. And I pointed out that scoring help is the biggest kind of help that everyone in history neede

To who? Not the Pacers.

I thought we were talking about Miller and Pippen, not Pippen and the best teams in the league from 91-93. I can appreciate you thinking I would forget the discussion as you move the goalposts. But no.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Kemp's nba problems were being on a bad team and feeling he get screwed outta a big contract. Well Jordan wins and his running mate is going to get paid. If you don't think resolving that would give you a second wind, idk what to tell you....

Have you ever met a drug addict? Drug abuse problems go far beyond being a millionaire that wants millions more. And by the way you have Kemp's NBA "problems" backwards. He was underpaid in Seattle who he also gave his best years. Cleveland handed him a hundred million dollars and it most certainly fixed nothing in fact after he got that money his career spiraled not before. All that money did absolutely nothing to curb his drug problems and frankly...duh.

[Duderonomy]

Have you ever met a drug addict? Drug abuse problems go far beyond being a millionaire that wants millions more. And by the way you have Kemp's NBA "problems" backwards. He was underpaid in Seattle who he also gave his best years. Cleveland handed him a hundred million dollars and it most certainly fixed nothing in fact after he got that money his career spiraled not before. All that money did absolutely nothing to curb his drug problems and frankly...duh.

Shawn wasn't hooked on heroin. He was going too hard on light drugs. You give him responsibility, motivation , and accountability I bet he reigns that in. Especially if he finds joy in the game that gave him everything.

It's like the your dream girl asking you to lose 10lbs before she gives it up. Yeah, I think that's a plan. Lol

[Real Men Wear Green]

Shawn wasn't hooked on heroin. He was going too hard on light drugs. You give him responsibility, motivation , and accountability I bet he reigns that in. Especially if he finds joy in the game that gave him everything.

It's like the your dream girl asking you to lose 10lbs before she gives it up. Yeah, I think that's a plan. LolThe stuff he was on was hard enough that he was reduced from being an All-Star to a bad reserve and felt the need to go to rehab. So I don't know what's "hard" and what's light in your eyes but no matter how you define such things he had problems. And this idea that he wouldn't have done drugs if he was paid more makes no sense. "Underpaid" Kemp still made millions, had Reebok endorsement deal and no doubt other revenue streams. "****ing bastards are only paying me 3 mil a year to play basketball? **** this I'm snorting coke." What about that statement isn't completely asinine? Well I did make up the contract...but otherwise that makes no sense. He did drugs because he wanted to, maybe he just partied too hard, maybe he had deeper psychological issues, whatever it might have been it wasn't because he was just some poor bum whose life wasn't worth living because he was only making millions.

[97 bulls]

Shawn wasn't hooked on heroin. He was going too hard on light drugs. You give him responsibility, motivation , and accountability I bet he reigns that in. Especially if he finds joy in the game that gave him everything.

It's like the your dream girl asking you to lose 10lbs before she gives it up. Yeah, I think that's a plan. Lol

Lol. He was addicted to Cocaine.

There's no way Jordan would've kept Kemp afloat. He has no patience for that kind of behavior. Rodman was never that bad.

Kemp always battled weight issues as well.

What I find funny. Is whenever the conversation about the 94 Bulls and a replacement for Jordan comes into question. All these variable have to be considered.

Well a Pippen Kemp trade is gonna move alot more stuff than just those two. What about Rodman? You're not only losing Pippen, you're also losing Rodman as well. You wanna talk about variable? The fact is, we don't know how a Jordan/Kemp combo would've faired. Rodman never shows up. Does Jordan's berating of teammates change Kemp?

[97 bulls]

Another thing to consider was money. Kemp became one of the leagues first 100million dollar player. The Bulls wouldn't have been able to put enough talent around Jordan and Kemp to do what they did with Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman.

And if I remember correctly, the Cavs were trash with Knep as their best player. There's nothing that showed Kemp could do anything remotely close to what Pippen did.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.basketballnetwork.net/.amp/old-school/shawn-kemp-on-why-he-left-the-sonics-they-werent-going-to-pay-me-100-million

[1987_Lakers]

Pippen brings versatility Kemp doesn't.

I doubt the Bulls win 55 games in 94 with Kemp instead of Pippen

[3ba11]

: facepalm:

[3ba11]

Pippen's true shooting was below league-average for every year of his playoff career except 89', 90', 02' (low volume years) and 91'.. 91' was his only viable run where he didn't get destroyed in any series

[3ba11]

No, I said a comparison between Miller and Pippen than only includes scoring and efficiency would look different than if you included other aspects of basketball.

Which is why you chose to frame it the way you did. You aren't interested in a discussion that isn't loaded in your favor.


The reason that I used scoring to compare Miller and Pippen is because Jordan was unbeatable when he had more scoring help, per HoopsNY's data..

Jordan was unbeatable when Pippen averaged 22-28 ppg, as required for Jordan to shoot less than 20 times

Essentially, guys like Magic and Lebron enjoyed 22-28 from teammates all year but only won 50-60 games, while Jordan's win rate was 95% (78 games) when Pippen got 22-28 (only 24% of games).

So if Jordan had better-scoring teammates like Kareem, AD, or Wade that could do this all year, he would win 78 games - Jordan was literally unbeatable with the good scoring help that everyone else had.. People always wonder how MJ would do with better scorers like Kareem and now we know - he would literally win 80 games.

You guys pretend that role player shit like defense and hustle were advantages for Jordan when every contender has that.. Otoh, star scoring help is the hardest to find and that's what everyone in history needed, except MJ.

[3ba11]

A lot of misperception itt

[3ba11]

Kemp peaked higher and could dominate, so Jordan would benefit from having a real 1b most contenders else in the 90's

[3ba11]

.
* Kemp led Zydrunas to 47 wins and the playoffs in 98', while Lebron was lottery with the all-star version of Zydrunas in 05'


* Kemp and Pippen against the same playoff opponent



VERSUS 98' PACERS

S KEMP.... 26.0 on 47%
PIPPEN.... 16.6 on 39%


VERSUS 93' SUNS

S KEMP.... 21/9 on 66% true shooting... 3.4 blocks... 1st option (payton averaged 12 ppg)
PIPPEN.... 21/9 on 46% true shooting... 1.0 blocks... 2nd option (jordan averaged 41 ppg)


* Kemp averaged 20/10 on 69% to win the Western Conference title against the 96' Jazz, and then averaged 23/10 on 53% to nearly win FMVP from MJ in the Finals (pippen averaged 15/8 on 34%)..

[ShawkFactory]

The reason that I used scoring to compare Miller and Pippen is because Jordan was unbeatable when he had more scoring help, per HoopsNY's data..

Jordan was unbeatable when Pippen averaged 22-28 ppg, as required for Jordan to shoot less than 20 times

Essentially, guys like Magic and Lebron enjoyed 22-28 from teammates all year but only won 50-60 games, while Jordan's win rate was 95% (78 games) when Pippen got 22-28 (only 24% of games).

So if Jordan had better-scoring teammates like Kareem, AD, or Wade that could do this all year, he would win 78 games - Jordan was literally unbeatable with the good scoring help that everyone else had.. People always wonder how MJ would do with better scorers like Kareem and now we know - he would literally win 80 games.

You guys pretend that role player shit like defense and hustle were advantages for Jordan when every contender has that.. Otoh, star scoring help is the hardest to find and that's what everyone in history needed, except MJ.

No it isn't.

[3ba11]

Pippen was more raw than Kemp as rookies but became more polished because of Jordan and the system.. Jordan would've done this with Kemp too.

And the drug addict crap is overblown to deflect from Kemp's superior performance.. Kemp was a 1b that could dominate the best players in the league while Pippen was never a 1b that could dominate or achieve elite stats.. Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that never achieved elite ppg, rpg or apg in any series - he had the lowest peak capability (no game-planning required)..

[3ba11]

No it isn't.


Of course it's why - scoring help is the biggest kind of help - that's why i ALWAYS why I use scoring to compare

so you're just lying or in denial

You're avoiding the substance - HoopsNY's data shows that more scoring help made MJ unbeatable

So Jordan wins with Miller and most superior scorers than Pippen




No it isn't.


Jordan was unbeatable when he had more scoring help, per HoopsNY's data..

Jordan was unbeatable when Pippen averaged 22-28 ppg, as required for Jordan to shoot less than 20 times

Essentially, guys like Magic and Lebron enjoyed 22-28 from teammates all year but only won 50-60 games, while Jordan's win rate was 95% (78 games) when Pippen got 22-28 (only 24% of games).




No it isn't.


Hoops' data showed that if Jordan had better-scoring teammates that could average 22-28 all year, he would win 78 games - Jordan was literally unbeatable with the good scoring help that everyone else had.. People always wonder how MJ would do with better scorers like Kareem and now we know - he would literally win 80 games.

You guys pretend that role player shit like defense and hustle were advantages for Jordan when every contender has that.. Otoh, star scoring help is the hardest to find and that's what everyone in history needed, except MJ.

[ShawkFactory]

You're avoiding the substance

:roll:

Oh boy. Never change.

[3ba11]

:roll:

Oh boy. Never change.


^^^ Another scared, beta deflection

I rest my case

Another bum silenced and tongue-tied by the facts

[Real Men Wear Green]

Kemp peaked higher and could dominate, so Jordan would benefit from having a real 1b most contenders else in the 90's
Again you say this. Kemp had one session where he averaged over 20 (20.5). Pippen had 4, three of which were higher than Kemp career high. But somehow Kemp was dominant and Pip was not?

[97 bulls]

Hoops' data showed that if Jordan had better-scoring teammates that could average 22-28 all year, he would win 78 games - Jordan was literally unbeatable with the good scoring help that everyone else had.. People always wonder how MJ would do with better scorers like Kareem and now we know - he would literally win 80 games.

You guys pretend that role player shit like defense and hustle were advantages for Jordan when every contender has that.. Otoh, star scoring help is the hardest to find and that's what everyone in history needed, except MJ.

But you fail to acknowledge that Jordan wasn't gonna get that and be able to meet his goal of leading the league in scoring.

"All I need to do is score 8 points a quarter to keep winning the scoring title, nobody else in the league is going to do that"

These were Jordan's words.

[3ba11]

Again you say this. Kemp had one session where he averaged over 20 (20.5). Pippen had 4, three of which were higher than Kemp career high. But somehow Kemp was dominant and Pip was not?


Kemp had to share with 3rd option scorers like Schrempf

But peak Kemp was a dominant 1st option in many series just like Malone or Hakeem, who Kemp dominated en route to the 96' Finals.

Pippen was an entirely lower level as a secondary producer that couldn't create his own shot or dominate.

Only Pippen couldn't achieve elite ppg, rpg or apg in any series... He was a system player and literally nothing without it, while Kemp was dominant in 98' Playoffs vs Indiana (another team that Pippen wet the bed against).. Kemp also drastically outplayed Pippen against the 93' Suns or heads-up in the 96' Finals

[Real Men Wear Green]

Kemp had to share with 3rd option scorers like Schrempf

But peak Kemp was a dominant 1st option in many series just like Malone or Hakeem, who Kemp dominated en route to the 96' Finals.

Pippen was an entirely lower level as a secondary producer that couldn't create his own shot or dominate.

Only Pippen couldn't achieve elite ppg, rpg or apg in any series... He was a system player and literally nothing without it, while Kemp was dominant in 98' Playoffs vs Indiana (the team that Pippen wet the bed against)

Is the another 14 ppg career scorer that anyone would call dominant?

Eh nevermind. I have had my fill of your bullshit for the night.

[3ba11]

Is the another 14 ppg career scorer that anyone would call dominant?

Eh nevermind. I have had my fill of your bullshit for the night.


Kemp outplayed Malone, Hakeem and nearly MJ, while Pippen was a secondary producer that wasn't capable of dominating..... at all ..

So Pippen was an entirely lower level of player that wasn't on the scouting report - he was temporarily propped up by the system and dynasty chemistry that he grew up in...

Ultimately, it's like comparing Iggy to Zion

[3ba11]

.
Kemp and Pippen against the same playoff opponent



VERSUS 98' PACERS

S KEMP.... 26.0 on 47%
PIPPEN.... 16.6 on 39%


VERSUS 93' SUNS

S KEMP.... 21/9 on 66% true shooting... 3.4 blocks... 1st option (payton averaged 12 ppg)
PIPPEN.... 21/9 on 46% true shooting... 1.0 blocks... 2nd option (jordan averaged 41 ppg)


HEADS-UP IN 96' FINALS

S KEMP.... 23/10 on 50%... nearly won FMVP
PIPPEN...... 15/8 on 34%... 0/6 in FMVP


Similarly, Pippen was drastically outplayed by Reggie Miller 5/5 times (100%) when they faced the same playoff opponent (here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493657-Reggie-Miller-and-Pippen-faced-the-same-opponent-in-the-playoffs-6-times))

[ShawkFactory]

^^^ Another scared, beta deflection

I rest my case

Another bum silenced and tongue-tied by the facts

This post does such a phenomenal job of proving my point.

Thank you sir.

[3ba11]

It's funny because I would be silenced and humbled with just 1 FMVP from Pippen.....

1 big series where he was THAT GUY......

Unfortunately, the historical record shows that Pippen was an Iggy or Wiggins-caliber performer that was inflated by the winning spotlight to an absurd top 30 all-time

[3ba11]

MJ caught wind of the possible trade and told Krause he'd never come back to the Bulls if he traded Pippen.

Hence the reason Krause called off negotiations and the trade never went down.



https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-08-2022/vILcxJ.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-08-2022/fCRtNr.gif

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-jerry-reinsdorf-says-he-vetoed-tracy-mcgrady-scottie-pippen-trade

[3ba11]

Is the another 14 ppg career scorer that anyone would call dominant?

Eh nevermind. I have had my fill of your bullshit for the night.


Kemp dominated Hakeem in the 96' Playoffs and Rodman in the Finals.. These are heads-up matchups

When did Pippen outplay or dominate an apex predator like Hakeem or Malone like Kemp did?... We all saw Pippen get destroyed by Ewing

Pippen never dominated a single series - he was a secondary producer that couldn't dominate, while Kemp was capable of top tier domination as a 1st option... Every 90's sidekick was infact a 1b go-to player that could take over series with elite stats..... except Pippen - Pippen had the lowest peak of any notable sidekick, aka no- gameplanning required, so MJ had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load)