This is why I think the Bulls were basically a "1-man team"...

[3ba11]

.
The stats confirm that Jordan's 6 rings are bigger carry-jobs then 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk:

Every "duo" in history was closer statistically than MJ/Pippen:



PLAYOFFS

94' Hakeem...... 27.7 PER.... 8.5 BPM... 2.6 VORP... 0.208 WS/48... 28.9 ppg
94' Horry'.......... 16.7 PER.... 5.0 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.152 WS/48... 11.7 ppg
GAP....................... 11.0...........3.5............. 1.2.............. 0.056............ 17.2

93' Jordan........ 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen........ 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP....................... 13.2.......... 9.6............. 2.1.............. 0.187............ 15.0

11' Dirk'............ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry........... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP........................ 4.9...........1.1............. 0.5............... 0.031............ 10.2

92' Jordan......... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen......... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP........................ 7.1........... 3.3............ 0.8............... 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan......... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen......... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP....................... 10.0.......... 8.1............ 1.4................ 0.136............. 9.5

96' Jordan........ 26.7 PER... 10.7 BPM... 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen........ 19.4 PER..... 7.8 BPM... 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP....................... 7.3............ 2.9............. 0.6................ 0.122.......... 13.8

97' Jordan........ 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen........ 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP....................... 9.1........... 4.8.............. 1.0................ 0.090......,... 11.9

98' Jordan....... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen....... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP...................... 8.7........... 3.4.............. 0.8............... 0.095........... 16.4


* The Bulls are the only team in history that won more than 2 Finals without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25 ppg - so Jordan won 3 times as many Finals with a low-producing sidekick as anyone else

* Only Pippen failed to reach Horry-level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499833-Comparing-Pippen-s-6-Finals-performances-to-peak-Horry-performance-(95-Finals)) from the 95' Finals).

* Pippen was drastically outplayed by Reggie Miller against the same playoff opponent 6/6 times:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493657-Reggie-Miller-and-Pippen-faced-the-same-opponent-in-the-playoffs-6-times


* Everyone in history needed teammates to match or exceed their scoring for entire playoff runs, whereas Jordan averaged 10 more than Pippen in every SERIES... (except 2 where he averaged 4 and 8 more).. This matters because equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention, so everyone else had runs without facing maximum defensive attention - these runs are inflated stats compared to Jordan, who always faced max defensive attention by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

[iamgine]

you ok?

[JBSptfn]

Those titles were carried, alright: By Dick Ebersol and NBC Sports. They scripted those championship wins for the sainted Jordan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R34etJoGuO0

[Shooter]

Show the gap between Shaq and Kobe :lol

Whoops

[Full Court]

There's more to a team than just a duo. Jordan is GOAT for sure, but Dirk in 2011 was a bigger carry job than any of Jordan's rings.

[3ba11]

There's more to a team than just a duo.





89' Cartwright..... 12/7 and 0.5 block
10' Shaq.............. 12/7 and 1.5 block


Old Rodman was worse than 2010 Shaq because Rodman wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs, while Shaq would've started and been the best center the Bulls ever had (see above), while challenging Pippen for 2nd option on many nights..

In addition to the 98' Playoffs,, Rodman averaged 3/8 for the 97' Playoffs - Jordan co-lead the rebounds with 8 like Rodman... The bulls played 4 on 5 with Rodman, who wouldn't be playable for most other teams (including any of Lebron lineup because Lebron needs juggernaut scoring help and abnormal shooting help).

The reality is that Pippen was an above-average sidekick, while the remaining cast was among the worst in the league.






Jordan is GOAT for sure, but Dirk in 2011 was a bigger carry job than any of Jordan's rings.





11' Terry destroys 93' or 98' Pippen across the board (see above), while Marion and Kidd were Pippen-like players..

Other guys like Peja, Barea, Stephenson, and Chandler were better versions of any of Jordan's teammates in similar roles...

[coastalmarker99]

You do realise the fact that you saying that a one-man team could win 6 rings in the 1990s makes that era look like complete garbage.

[SATAN]

Why do people continue paying attention to OP? He's obviously a LeBron fan pretending to be an MJ stan. Never won an argument. Never shown anything remotely convincing.

[3ba11]

You do realise the fact that you saying that a one-man team could win 6 rings in the 1990s makes that era look like complete garbage.


MJ won 6 "Dirk" rings

Was the league weak when Dirk won in 11' or Kawhi in 19'?

How about Curry this year?? Was it a weak league because Curry carried Wiggins to the title and won with the great Andrew Wiggins at 2nd option?..

[SouBeachTalents]

You do realise the fact that you saying that a one-man team could win 6 rings in the 1990s makes that era look like complete garbage.
Or the fact the 2nd option on this "1 man team" outscored the opposing teams 2nd option in 75% of the teams series during their championship runs. Or that they won 55 games without the "1 man" on the team.

But this has been explained to OP literally dozens and dozens of times, and now he'll respond with either complete lies or absurd cherry picking.

[Axe]

How about Curry this year?? Was it a weak league because Curry carried Wiggins to the title and won with the great Andrew Wiggins at 2nd option?..
I highly doubt his team would have won this year without wiggins.

[3ba11]

Or the fact the 2nd option on this "1 man team" outscored the opposing teams 2nd option in 75% of the teams series during their championship runs.





Using scoring as our barometer, every above-average sidekick will outscore opposing 2nd options the majority of series, but they won't do it with worst-ever efficiency like Pippen, or "Andre Roberson" clutch production like Pippen.

Pippen was a garbage 2nd option because he didn't require game-planning (low peak capability), like Shaq says here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif)... Since Pippen was the only sidekick that couldn't dominate or achieve elite stats (no game-planning), Jordan was the only 1st option that always faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load).. See, people confused Jordan's role (carrying the scoring load) with just scoring (what everyone else does)






Or that they won 55 games without the "1 man" on the team.





An obvious one-off due to 3-peat system and surprise factor - they proved to be a paper tiger in the playoffs and 1-hit regular season wonder like the 15' Hawks and hundreds of teams in history.

1st options are supposed to grow teams, yet the REAL bulls without mj were borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned

And you're praising Pippen for a 1-hit regular season wonder but you won't acknowledge other sidekicks doing far better... KJ routinely made the WCF before Barkley and dominated more than Pippen ever has.. Or KJ dominated Hakeem in 2 seven-game wars in 94/95 while Barkley wet the bed.

Every sidekick and many 3rd options played better than Pippen ever has, along with guys like Horry.. Again, this is all due to Pippen's low peak capability (no game-planning required)

[3ba11]

I highly doubt his team would have won this year without wiggins.


That goes for most teams that lose their sidekick without replacement...

And that's the thing - Wiggins could've been replaced by tons of guys, just like Pippen...

Pippen and Wiggins are secondary producers with low peak capability (no gameplanning required).. So they're easily replaceable, unlike elite scorers that dominate the scouting report like AD, Wade or Kyrie.

[1987_Lakers]

you ok?

:oldlol:

[coastalmarker99]

3ball with his dumb logic is admitting that the 1990s bulls wouldn't have won nearly as many titles if they played in the 1980s.


As we saw what occurred when Jordan was a one-man team in the 1980s and it resulted in him getting owned by Zeke and Bird.

[NBAGOAT]

89' Cartwright..... 12/7 and 0.5 block
10' Shaq.............. 12/7 and 1.5 block


Old Rodman was worse than 2010 Shaq because Rodman wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs, while Shaq would've started and been the best center the Bulls ever had (see above), while challenging Pippen for 2nd option on many nights..

In addition to the 98' Playoffs,, Rodman averaged 3/8 for the 97' Playoffs - Jordan co-lead the rebounds with 8 like Rodman... The bulls played 4 on 5 with Rodman, who wouldn't be playable for most other teams (including any of Lebron lineup because Lebron needs juggernaut scoring help and abnormal shooting help).

The reality is that Pippen was an above-average sidekick, while the remaining cast was among the worst in the league.






11' Terry destroys 93' or 98' Pippen across the board (see above), while Marion and Kidd were Pippen-like players..

Other guys like Peja, Barea, Stephenson, and Chandler were better versions of any of Jordan's teammates in similar roles...

you're overrating peja lol along with some other guys. He had a few good games vs the lakers and that's about it. also marion/kidd were not pippen like lol post their stats. Horace grant, kukoc, rodman etc are easily better than any mav after dirk/terry besides chandler

[3ba11]

you're overrating peja lol along with some other guys. He had a few good games vs the lakers and that's about it. also marion/kidd were not pippen like lol post their stats. Horace grant, kukoc, rodman etc are easily better than any mav after dirk/terry besides chandler


Rodman wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs, so that automatically makes him the 6th best on the Mavs (behind actual starters), while Horace was nowhere near perennial all-stars or HOF's like Kidd and Mation, or even Terry and Chandler, like you said.

Again, guys like Marion and Kidd played 3rd and 4th option roles but infact were Pippen-like players, while Chandler, Barea, Peja and Stephenson were deluxe versions of the Bulls' role players... And Terry destroyed 93' or 98' Pippen across the board (see the OP stats)

[3ba11]

3ball with his dumb logic is admitting that the 1990s bulls wouldn't have won nearly as many titles if they played in the 1980s.


As we saw what occurred when Jordan was a one-man team in the 1980s and it resulted in him getting owned by Zeke and Bird.


The 80's was a super-team era, so you had to be lucky enough to be on 1 of 2 super-teams until 89' - if Jordan was on one of the super-teams, he would've won every year.

The issue is that the Bulls weren't a super-team, so they obviously wouldn't fare as well against super-teams than they did against 90's teams.. But don't mispercieve - the 80's represented a luckfest to get on a super-team, while the 90's was an even playing field of optimal competitive environment (parity) that accurately showed the best player (MJ)

[8Ball]

Not even other Jordan stans sign off on 3ball posts anymore.


I see no one coming to 3ball's much needed defence.

[3ba11]

Not even other Jordan stans sign off on 3ball posts anymore.


I see no one coming to 3ball's much needed defence.


They consistently do here and there

Just enough to know that there's plenty of Jordan support

For example, posters signed off on my arguments against HoopsNY, which forced Hoops to do the same stats for Lebron and Kobe.. Not surprisingly, they too won much more when they shot less than 20 times - it turns out that these guys aren't robots, aka they shoot less when teammates are playing well.

Other Jordan fans have grown accustomed to these types of ragdollings by 3ball, so they leave me to it

[Round Mound]

:facepalm

[3ba11]

:facepalm


Agreed.. it's a shame how the numbers support what I'm saying and not your argument (see the OP)

[Axe]

That goes for most teams that lose their sidekick without replacement...

And that's the thing - Wiggins could've been replaced by tons of guys, just like Pippen...

Pippen and Wiggins are secondary producers with low peak capability (no gameplanning required).. So they're easily replaceable, unlike elite scorers that dominate the scouting report like AD, Wade or Kyrie.
Wiggins at least made the playoffs without a superstar. How many has curry gone to without klay thompson?

[TheMan]

3ball is a weird dude

[3ba11]

.
https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif



Wiggins at least made the playoffs without a superstar. How many has curry gone to without klay thompson?


Secondary producers like Klay, Wiggins or Pippen have low peak capability and therefore don't require game-planning (above), which forces the 1st option to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in the Finals).

So unlike all-time scorers and elite producers like AD, Wade or Kyrie, secondary producers like Klay, Wiggins or Pippen require a 1st option that can CARRY THE SCORING LOAD, which Lebron cannot do.. That's why he needs all-time scorers at sidekick that can nearly match his Finals scoring.

[SouBeachTalents]

Other interesting Shaq points.

https://i.redd.it/eosjmf14lnu71.jpg

[3ba11]

Other interesting Shaq points.

https://i.redd.it/eosjmf14lnu71.jpg


4 rings + scoring lead?

So Shaq was obviously trolling because Kareem already had 6 rings + scoring title... plus #3 rebounds

And Lebron is #1 in turnover

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs:


Why does Lebron need elite scorers at sidekick and even 3rd option?

Why can't Lebron carry the scoring load in the Finals and therefore win with secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen?

Essentially, why does Lebron need the most scoring help ever?... :confusedshrug:

It's because:

1) he lacks the elite jumpshooting skill needed to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals)

2) elite-scoring teammates are required to prevent the need for a ball-centric carry-job... i.e.at carry-job volumes, Lebron lacks lacks sufficient brand of ball to beat top teams (too ball-dominant)

[Sulico]

Did they play 2-on-2?
Why title says 1-man TEAM and then instead of whole team OP analyses 2 players?

[ShawkFactory]

2013 Playoffs

Lebron: 28.1 PER, .260 WS/48, 10.1 BPM, 3.4 VORP

Wade: 18.7 PER, .106 WS/48, 3.1 BPM, 1.0 VORP

ENORMOUS carry job.

[RogueBorg]

4 rings + scoring lead?

So Shaq was obviously trolling because Kareem already had 6 rings + scoring title... plus #3 rebounds

And Lebron is #1 in turnover

Exactly, Kareem has 6 rings and scoring lead and is not universally the GOAT. Nothing changes when Lebron passes Kareem.

[RRR3]

2013 Playoffs

Lebron: 28.1 PER, .260 WS/48, 10.1 BPM, 3.4 VORP

Wade: 18.7 PER, .106 WS/48, 3.1 BPM, 1.0 VORP

ENORMOUS carry job.
Yeah but LeBron did it so it doesn’t count.

[Hey Yo]

Rodman wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs, so that automatically makes him the 6th best on the Mavs (behind actual starters), while Horace was nowhere near perennial all-stars or HOF's like Kidd and Mation, or even Terry and Chandler, like you said.

Again, guys like Marion and Kidd played 3rd and 4th option roles but infact were Pippen-like players, while Chandler, Barea, Peja and Stephenson were deluxe versions of the Bulls' role players... And Terry destroyed 93' or 98' Pippen across the board (see the OP stats)
The first rounds of the playoffs, he avg. 36mins per game. In the Finals he avg. 30.3mins a game. Those are considered starter minutes.

You have any articles that were written for Terry claiming he was the current front runner for FMVP like there were for Pippen after 4gms??


Didn't think so.

[Hey Yo]

Exactly, Kareem has 6 rings and scoring lead and is not universally the GOAT. Nothing changes when Lebron passes Kareem.

Kareem wasn't the best player on his team for all 6 rings.

[3ba11]

Yeah but LeBron did it so it doesn’t count.


Lebron never did it on the championship level (Finals) and he only did it ONCE if we're looking at overall playoffs that includes lesser comp - so it's a big exception and fluke for him - only a miracle actually allowed it (Ray Allen), whereas it was the STANDARD for the goat MJ.. 6/6 with scoring title and carry-job (toughest path)

The reason Lebron can't have carry-jobs, aka the reason he can't carry bed-wetting sidekicks over good teams (top 5 SRS) or defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) is because his jumpshooting skill, efficiency and brand of ball is insufficient at carry-job volumes to beat top teams... Accordingly, all-time scorers are needed at sidekick to prevent an overly-ball-centric effort by Lebron.

Obviously, it's easier for GM's to build a team with cheap defenders, but this requires a 1st option that can carry the scoring load like Curry or MJ (expert jumpshooters that maintain brand of ball at carry-job volumes).. Lebron is the opposite where he requires all-time scoring help, aka expensive, star scoring help (a GM's nightmare).

[RRR3]

Lebron never did it on the championship level (Finals) and he only did it ONCE if we're looking at overall playoffs that includes lesser comp - so it's a big exception and fluke for him - only a miracle actually allowed it (Ray Allen), whereas it was the STANDARD for the goat MJ.. 6/6 with scoring title and carry-job (toughest path)

The reason Lebron can't have carry-jobs, aka the reason he can't carry bed-wetting sidekicks over good teams (top 5 SRS) or defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) is because his jumpshooting skill, efficiency and brand of ball is insufficient to beat top teams at carry-job volumes... Accordingly, all-time scorers are needed at sidekick to prevent an overly-ball-centric effort by Lebron.

Obviously, it's easier for GM's to build a team with cheap defenders, but this requires a 1st option that can carry the scoring load like Curry or MJ (expert jumpshooters that maintain brand of ball at carry-job volumes).. Lebron is the opposite where he requires all-time scoring help, aka expensive, star scoring help (a GM's nightmare).
You are senile and in a nursing home.

[3ba11]

You are senile and in a nursing home.


The reason Lebron can't have carry-jobs, aka the reason he can't carry bed-wetting sidekicks over good teams (top 5 SRS) or defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) is because his jumpshooting skill, efficiency and brand of ball is insufficient at carry-job volumes to beat top teams... Accordingly, all-time scorers are needed at sidekick to prevent an overly-ball-centric effort by Lebron.

Obviously, it's easier for GM's to build a team with cheap defenders, but this requires a 1st option that can carry the scoring load like Curry or MJ (expert jumpshooters that maintain brand of ball at carry-job volumes).. Lebron is the opposite where he requires all-time scoring help, aka expensive, star scoring help (a GM's nightmare).

[RRR3]

The reason Lebron can't have carry-jobs, aka the reason he can't carry bed-wetting sidekicks over good teams (top 5 SRS) or defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) is because his jumpshooting skill, efficiency and brand of ball is insufficient at carry-job volumes to beat top teams... Accordingly, all-time scorers are needed at sidekick to prevent an overly-ball-centric effort by Lebron.

Obviously, it's easier for GM's to build a team with cheap defenders, but this requires a 1st option that can carry the scoring load like Curry or MJ (expert jumpshooters that maintain brand of ball at carry-job volumes).. Lebron is the opposite where he requires all-time scoring help, aka expensive, star scoring help (a GM's nightmare).
Yep. Further proof the old guy is senile. Couldn’t even process what I said.

[3ba11]

Yep. Further proof the old guy is senile. Couldn’t even process what I said.


You're schizophrenic by looking me up on the internet.... finding out who I am and that I played Division 1 basketball for Florida International University in the late 90's..... and then coming on here and saying hundreds of times that I'm 70 and in a nursing home

That's crazy - that's you

[RRR3]

You're schizophrenic by looking me up on the internet.... finding out who I am and that I played Division 1 basketball for Florida International University in the late 90's..... and then coming on here and saying hundreds of times that I'm 70 and in a nursing home

That's crazy - that's you
Ah more senile ramblings. Past your bedtime pops.

[3ba11]

Ah more senile ramblings. Past your bedtime pops.


In 20 seasons, Lebron has zero carry-jobs against good teams (never carried bed-wetting sidekick over top 5 SRS team)

And he never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals)

He simply lacks sufficient brand of ball at carry-job volumes to beat good teams and therefore needs all-time scorers at sidekick to prevent his ball-centric carry-job efforts (losing efforts)

[RRR3]

In 20 seasons, Lebron has zero carry-jobs against good teams (never carried bed-wetting sidekick over top 5 SRS team)

And he never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals)

He simply lacks sufficient brand of ball at carry-job volumes to beat good teams and therefore needs all-time scorers at sidekick to prevent his ball-centric carry-job efforts (losing efforts)
Is LeBron in the room with you right now?

[3ba11]

Is LeBron in the room with you right now?


Expert jumpshooters like Jordan and Curry maintain brand of ball at carry-job volumes, so they're capable of carry-jobs against good teams and can win with secondary producers like Wiggins that require carrying.

Obviously, it's easier for GM's to build a team with cheap defenders, but this requires a 1st option that can carry the scoring load like Curry or MJ (expert jumpshooters that maintain brand of ball at carry-job volumes).. Lebron is the opposite where he requires all-time scoring help, aka expensive, star scoring help (a GM's nightmare).

[RRR3]

Expert jumpshooters like Jordan and Curry maintain brand of ball at carry-job volumes, so they're capable of carry-jobs against good teams and can win with secondary producers like Wiggins that require carrying.

Obviously, it's easier for GM's to build a team with cheap defenders, but this requires a 1st option that can carry the scoring load like Curry or MJ (expert jumpshooters that maintain brand of ball at carry-job volumes).. Lebron is the opposite where he requires all-time scoring help, aka expensive, star scoring help (a GM's nightmare).
This is one of your delusions again isn’t it? Time for a nap.

[3ba11]

This is one of your delusions again isn’t it? Time for a nap.


Jumpshooting facilitates ball-movement and high assist teams, whereas Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance creates a low assist team that gets ragdolled and has a lottery record on the championship level regardless cast

[RRR3]

Jumpshooting facilitates ball-movement and high assist teams, whereas Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance creates a low assist team that gets ragdolled and has a lottery record on the championship level regardless cast
You are babbling. It’s time for your medicine.

[3ba11]

You are babbling. It’s time for your medicine.


Don't be embarrassed that Lebron can't win with scoring or have carry-jobs against good teams because Magic was the same way!!!... :lebronamazed:

Magic was ragdolled when he tried to be a scorer in 1990 against KJ

Ball-dominators can't have carry-jobs against good teams because they lack sufficient brand of ball at carry-job scoring loads or volumes... :confusedshrug:... That's why Magic and Lebron needed the most scoring help in history

[TheGoatest]

OP is actually correct about the Bulls being a one man team. The only detail he's got wrong is about who that man was:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ehcd46SWsAA0JHe.jpg

https://images4.imagebam.com/c1/6c/aa/MEDESYK_o.jpg

[HoopsNY]

"1 man team" lol...unbelievable. 1 man teams now win 55 games without their "1 man".

[3ba11]

.
Clutch Points (last 5 within 5) for 2016 2nd Round:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-01-2022/-5mtpL.gif

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=2&PerMode=TotalsMode=Totals



Clutch Points for 1994 2nd Round:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/jbCxdB.gif


Pippen also amazingly had zero clutch points for the entire 98' 2nd Round (here (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=2&PerMode=Totals))






win 55 games





The Heat were injured in 15' but nearly made 16' ECF without Lebron just like 94' Bulls without MJ


Playoffs

16' WADE'...... 22.3 PER.. 4.9 bpm.. 0.148 ws/48.. 0.8 vorp.. 22/6/4 on 47%
94' PIPPEN.... 22.8 PER.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.149 ws/48.. 0.7 vorp.. 23/8/6 on 43%


^^™ the difference is that Wade was building the Heat like a real 1st option does (lottery to near-ECF), while Pippen drove the Bulls downward and was borderline lottery in 95' before MJ restored 3-peat caliber






win 55 games





After 3-peating... After developing 3-peat system

So they were an obvious fluke like the 15' Hawks and similarly exposed as frauds in the playoffs.

the REAL bulls without mj were borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned to restore 3-peat caliber. so Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to borderline lottery in less than 18 months.

People compare the 3-peat Bulls from 93' with the 14' Heat, who were the equivalent of a 1st Round Western team based on their Finals performance. Meanwhile,he 15' Heat missed the playoffs by 1/2 game because Wade was hurt.. But Wade rebuilt the Heat in 16', while Pippen drove the Bulls downward in 95' because he isn't a real 1st option or leader

[97 bulls]

.
Clutch Points (last 5 within 5) for 2016 2nd Round:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-01-2022/-5mtpL.gif

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=2&PerMode=TotalsMode=Totals



Clutch Points for 1994 2nd Round:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/jbCxdB.gif


Pippen also amazingly had zero clutch points for the entire 98' 2nd Round (here (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=2&PerMode=Totals))






The Heat were injured in 15' but nearly made 16' ECF without Lebron just like 94' Bulls without MJ


Playoffs

16' WADE'...... 22.3 PER.. 4.9 bpm.. 0.148 ws/48.. 0.8 vorp.. 22/6/4 on 47%
94' PIPPEN.... 22.8 PER.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.149 ws/48.. 0.7 vorp.. 23/8/6 on 43%


^^™ the difference is that Wade was building the Heat like a real 1st option does (lottery to near-ECF), while Pippen drove the Bulls downward and was borderline lottery in 95' before MJ restored 3-peat caliber






After 3-peating... After developing 3-peat system

So they were an obvious fluke like the 15' Hawks and similarly exposed as frauds in the playoffs.

the REAL bulls without mj were borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned to restore 3-peat caliber. so Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to borderline lottery in less than 18 months.

People compare the 3-peat Bulls from 93' with the 14' Heat, who were the equivalent of a 1st Round Western team based on their Finals performance. Meanwhile,he 15' Heat missed the playoffs by 1/2 game because Wade was hurt.. But Wade rebuilt the Heat in 16', while Pippen drove the Bulls downward in 95' because he isn't a real 1st option or leader

But the Heat actually replaced Lebron James with Luol Deng. The Bulls replaced Jordan with Pete Myers. That's not the same thing.

[3ba11]

1 man teams now win 55 games without their "1 man".





Being a 2nd Round team was their apex without Jordan and that was after 3-peating with everything going for them - no pressure, no expectation, honeymoon period as defending 3-peat champs

So the 2nd Round was their apex despite optimal circumstances - the playoffs exposed them as a paper tiger and they were borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned

So yeah, 1-man team..

Normally, a star's apex is when they carry the scoring load for a title like 06' Wade, 22' Curry or 09' Kobe... But only MJ had to carry the scoring load for every title (defeat maximum defensive attention for every ring) because only MJ lacked a go-to teammate or elite-scoring teammate for his entire career.2

[TheMan]

The championship Bulls weren't a one man team, stop it. You're arguing for the other extreme, the complete opposite that Goatits and other numbskulls that claim they were historically loaded. When the Bulls were a one man team in the mid 80s, they went nowhere. Once they had quality pieces, then MJ was able to lead them to championships, he didn't do it alone, he even said so himself. Just stop, bro.

[3ba11]

The championship Bulls weren't a one man team, stop it. You're arguing for the other extreme, the complete opposite that Goatits and other numbskulls that claim they were historically loaded. When the Bulls were a one man team in the mid 80s, they went nowhere. Once they had quality pieces, then MJ was able to lead them to championships, he didn't do it alone, he even said so himself. Just stop, bro.


The Bulls almost made the Finals in 89' with nothing and Jordan completely carrying the load - they were the exact same roster in 91-93' where Jordan carried an even bigger load

Jordan carried the load even more when they won titles - the stats show this

He averaged 36 and 41 in the 92' and 93' Finals against maximum defensive attention (carrying the scoring load).... 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals.. And maximum shot attempts on the 96-98' runs (complete carry-jobs).

The 90's Bulls were the least talented of any dynasty - that's an obvious fact - every other dynasty is loaded with all-stars and elite producers except the Bulls.. The Bulls only had 1 elite producer - a 1-man team - only 1 guy was capable of elite production so only only 1 guy was on the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif).

And what did a system player like Pippen do outside of the dynasty system that he grew up in?.. .He was literally Jeff Green - literally - Houston hated him (https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2022/7D0vE4.gif) and traded him for nothing...

And again, you can't get past the numbers in the OP - they prove the point very clearly - Pippen had lower performance than Terry for numerous title runs and had bigger gap between him and the 1st option

[Jasper]

.
The stats confirm that Jordan's 6 rings are bigger carry-jobs then 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk:

Every "duo" in history was closer statistically than MJ/Pippen:



PLAYOFFS

94' Hakeem...... 27.7 PER.... 8.5 BPM... 2.6 VORP... 0.208 WS/48... 28.9 ppg
94' Horry'.......... 16.7 PER.... 5.0 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.152 WS/48... 11.7 ppg
GAP....................... 11.0...........3.5............. 1.2.............. 0.056............ 17.2

93' Jordan........ 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen........ 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP....................... 13.2.......... 9.6............. 2.1.............. 0.187............ 15.0

11' Dirk'............ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry........... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP........................ 4.9...........1.1............. 0.5............... 0.031............ 10.2

92' Jordan......... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen......... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP........................ 7.1........... 3.3............ 0.8............... 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan......... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen......... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP....................... 10.0.......... 8.1............ 1.4................ 0.136............. 9.5

96' Jordan........ 26.7 PER... 10.7 BPM... 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen........ 19.4 PER..... 7.8 BPM... 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP....................... 7.3............ 2.9............. 0.6................ 0.122.......... 13.8

97' Jordan........ 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen........ 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP....................... 9.1........... 4.8.............. 1.0................ 0.090......,... 11.9

98' Jordan....... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen....... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP...................... 8.7........... 3.4.............. 0.8............... 0.095........... 16.4


* The Bulls are the only team in history that won more than 2 Finals without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25 ppg - so Jordan won 3 times as many Finals with a low-producing sidekick as anyone else

* Only Pippen failed to reach Horry-level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499833-Comparing-Pippen-s-6-Finals-performances-to-peak-Horry-performance-(95-Finals)) from the 95' Finals).

* Pippen was drastically outplayed by Reggie Miller against the same playoff opponent 6/6 times:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493657-Reggie-Miller-and-Pippen-faced-the-same-opponent-in-the-playoffs-6-times


* Everyone in history needed teammates to match or exceed their scoring for entire playoff runs, whereas Jordan averaged 10 more than Pippen in every SERIES... (except 2 where he averaged 4 and 8 more).. This matters because equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention, so everyone else had runs without facing maximum defensive attention - these runs are inflated stats compared to Jordan, who always faced max defensive attention by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

whats your GAP on defense ...:facepalm

[1987_Lakers]

"1 man team" lol...unbelievable. 1 man teams now win 55 games without their "1 man".

:oldlol:

[3ba11]

whats your GAP on defense ...:facepalm


The Bulls only had the 7th-ranked defense during the 1st three-peat (7th, 4th, 7th)

So they had inferior defenses to most ECF and Finals opponents like the 91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, and 93' Knicks.

Furthermore, the 09' Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense compared to 19th for the 90' Bulls, while Mo destroyed Pippen offensively across the board (scoring, efficiency, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).. So Lebron had a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost again in 2010 despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite... Then he choked with a super-team in 2011.

[Overdrive]

Rodman wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs, so that automatically makes him the 6th best on the Mavs (behind actual starters), while Horace was nowhere near perennial all-stars or HOF's like Kidd and Mation, or even Terry and Chandler, like you said.




11' Terry destroys 93' or 98' Pippen across the board (see above), while Marion and Kidd were Pippen-like players..

Other guys like Peja, Barea, Stephenson, and Chandler were better versions of any of Jordan's teammates in similar roles...

Terry wasn't even a starter so Pippen is automatically better.

[Johnny32]

it's weird such a dumb topic hangs on this board for weeks. the lives these regs live is so embarrassing and sad lol.

[Lebron23]

Jordan never won a playoffs series without Pippen

[97 bulls]

Terry wasn't even a starter so Pippen is automatically better.

This post will get ignored. I'd like to see how 3ball answers this.

Great post.

[3ba11]

Jordan never won a playoffs series without Pippen


And Giannis never won without Middleton

But that doesn't mean Giannis "needs" Middleton

It's just coincidence that Giannis and MJ happened to have Middleton/Pippen as sidekicks

And it's just a coincidence that the only time Jordan didn't have Pippen were his first few years when nearly everyone loses - Curry, Lebron, Giannis and Durant were all lottery in their first few years.

If the only knock you have on Jordan is that he lost when everyone else lost, then you have nothing on Jordan - you actually proved that he had the perfect career.. aka he never lost when expected to win... he lost the least ever with an all-star teammate... he always defeated maximum defensive attention (always carried scoring load).

[Overdrive]

And Giannis never won without Middleton

But that doesn't mean Giannis "needs" Middleton

It's just coincidence that Giannis and MJ happened to have Middleton/Pippen as sidekicks

And it's just a coincidence that the only time Jordan didn't have Pippen were his first few years when nearly everyone loses - Curry, Lebron, Giannis and Durant were all lottery in their first few years.

If the only knock you have on Jordan is that he lost when everyone else lost, then you have nothing on Jordan - you actually proved that he had the perfect career.. aka he never lost when expected to win... he lost the least ever with an all-star teammate... he always defeated maximum defensive attention (always carried scoring load).

Bill Russell and Magic won in their first year. KAJ in his second. Compared to them Jordan is a loser.

[Axe]

And Giannis never won without Middleton

But that doesn't mean Giannis "needs" Middleton

It's just coincidence that Giannis and MJ happened to have Middleton/Pippen as sidekicks

And it's just a coincidence that the only time Jordan didn't have Pippen were his first few years when nearly everyone loses - Curry, Lebron, Giannis and Durant were all lottery in their first few years.

If the only knock you have on Jordan is that he lost when everyone else lost, then you have nothing on Jordan - you actually proved that he had the perfect career.. aka he never lost when expected to win... he lost the least ever with an all-star teammate... he always defeated maximum defensive attention (always carried scoring load).
Kobe was also a sidekick in his first 8 years in the league. You don't seem to be aware of that, are you?

[3ba11]

Bill Russell and Magic won in their first year. KAJ in his second. Compared to them Lebron was lottery and a loser.


Fixed

[SATAN]

Another thread of OP getting his ass handed to him. :yaohappy:

[3ba11]

This post will get ignored. I'd like to see how 3ball answers this.

Great post.


The player quality of the 2011 Mavs was far superior then the 90's Bulls, including 3 Pippen-like players at the 3rd, 4th and 5th option options (Marion, Kidd, and Chandler), while Terry was superior offensively than Pippen in the 93' Playoffs, or 96-98' depending on the criteria (ppg, efficiency, PER, WS/48, etc)

So the Mavs had 4 Pippen-caliber producers sharing 4 spots (2nd through 5th), while also having guys like Peja, Stevension and Barea (deluxe versions of the Bulls' role players)

The Mavs' superior player quality is reflected in the numbers shown in the OP - Dirk doesn't need to average 30+ and have MJ-level stats because his cast is far superior.. Specifically, Terry outperforms 93' or 98' Pippen by a mile and there's a smaller statistical gap between Terry-Dirk than Pippen-MJ - this conclusively proves that MJ's six championships are Dirk-level carry-jobs from 2011 (or 94' Hakeem) and some of them are even greater (93', 98')..

[97 bulls]

The player quality of the 2011 Mavs was far superior then the 90's Bulls, including 3 Pippen-like players at the 3rd, 4th and 5th option options (Marion, Kidd, and Chandler), while Terry was superior offensively than Pippen in the 93' Playoffs, or 96-98' depending on the criteria (ppg, efficiency, PER, WS/48, etc)

So the Mavs had 4 Pippen-caliber producers sharing 4 spots (2nd through 5th), while also having guys like Peja, Stevension and Barea (deluxe versions of the Bulls' role players)

The Mavs' superior player quality is reflected in the numbers shown in the OP - Dirk doesn't need to average 30+ and have MJ-level stats because his cast is far superior.. Specifically, Terry outperforms 93' or 98' Pippen by a mile and there's a smaller statistical gap between Terry-Dirk than Pippen-MJ - this conclusively proves that MJ's six championships are Dirk-level carry-jobs from 2011 (or 94' Hakeem) and some of them are even greater (93', 98')..
Lol. The player quality? Bulls have 3 Hall of Famers outside of MJ. The Mavs have 2. And again, by you criteria. Terry being a bench player isn't the same as a starter. Stick to your own logic. Remember when I showed you video proof of Rodman shutting Karl Malone down in 98? You said it didn't matter because Rodman wasn't a starter. Be consistent.

[Overdrive]

Fixed

Woah. That really got me.

So Lebron and Jordan are the same losers compared to Russell, Magic and Jabbar. Who all organically won with the team that drafted them. Your main criteria. "Organic" wins. So at best Jordan is #4 all time.

[Phoenix]

I just read that Tyson Chandler was 'Pippen caliber'. Are they allowing asylum inmates internet access nowadays?

[3ba11]

I just read that Tyson Chandler was 'Pippen caliber'.





He had far greater impact defensively tbh

Regardless, the Mavs had 2 Pippen-like players at the 3rd and 4th option (Marion, Kidd), while Terry was superior to 93' Pippen offensively, or 96-98' Pippen depending on the criteria (scoring, efficiency, PER, WS/48).

So the Mavs had 3 Pippen-caliber producers at the 2nd thru 4th spots, while guys like Chandler, Peja, Stevenson and Barea were deluxe versions of the Bulls' role players..

The Mavs superior cast is confirmed by the OP stats - Dirk doesn't need to get Jordan's numbers because his cast was superior

[Baller789]

No way the Jordan Bulls were a one man team.

But the heirarchy was pretty clear.

[SouBeachTalents]

He had far greater impact defensively tbh

Regardless, the Mavs had 2 Pippen-like players at the 3rd and 4th option (Marion, Kidd), while Terry was superior to 93' Pippen offensively, or 96-98' Pippen depending on the criteria (scoring, efficiency, PER, WS/48).

So the Mavs had 3 Pippen-caliber producers at the 2nd thru 4th spots, while guys like Chandler, Peja, Stevenson and Barea were deluxe versions of the Bulls' role players..

The Mavs superior cast is confirmed by the OP stats - Dirk doesn't need to get Jordan's numbers because his cast was superior
And people argue this guy is a good poster. Only on this shithole :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

Are they allowing asylum inmates internet access nowadays?


He had far greater impact defensively tbh

Regardless, the Mavs had 2 Pippen-like players at the 3rd and 4th option (Marion, Kidd), while Terry was superior to 93' Pippen offensively, or 96-98' Pippen depending on the criteria (scoring, efficiency, PER, WS/48).

So the Mavs had 3 Pippen-caliber producers at the 2nd thru 4th spots, while guys like Chandler, Peja, Stevenson and Barea were deluxe versions of the Bulls' role players..

The Mavs superior cast is confirmed by the OP stats - Dirk doesn't need to get Jordan's numbers because his cast was superior

Asked and answered.

[red1]

"1-man team"


team wins 55-games and goes game 7 ECSF while baldan is banned from the leauge for sociopathic gambling:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html

[red1]

thats the definition of a stacked team.





against grocery-bagging competition.

https://i.postimg.cc/k5pXdN5h/Rivalry-Decade.jpg

[3ba11]

Asked and answered.


It's a statistical and historical fact that the 11' Mavs had 3 Pippen-caliber performers at the 2nd through 4th option - this includes Kidd, Marion and also the 2nd option Jason Terry, who had superior scoring, efficiency, PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP in the playoffs than 93' Pippen (see the OP stats).

In addition to having 3 Pippen-caliber performers at the 2nd thru 4th option, the Mavs had deluxe versions of the Bulls role players like Chandler, Peja, Barea, and Stevenson

The Mavs superior cast is confirmed by the numbers - Terry's superior production to Pippen and the Mavs superior cast is why Dirk didn't need MJ-like numbers to beat the super-team Heat (a more talented team than Jordan ever faced)

[red1]

55 wins while baldan was suspended.


not a 1 man team.


period.

[3ba11]

55 wins while baldan was suspended.


not a 1 man team.


period.


Only after 3-peating - a 1-hit wonder that was borderline lottery in 95' after getting exposed in the 94' Playoffs by Ewing

[3ba11]

.
1994 vs. Rockets

KJ...................... 27/4/10 (1st option over Barkley)


1995 vs. Rockets

KJ...................... 29/4/9 (1st option over Barkley)


1992 WCF

Terry Porter....... 26/5/8 (53% on threes, 6 attempts)



Other sidekicks like Penny, Kemp or Stockton achieved dominant stats as well and carried their teams.

Infact, every 90's sidekick was a "1b" and go-to player with elite-scoring capability.

except Pippen

Pippen was a transition/hustle player that couldn't create his own shot in the halfcourt - Kukoc was the preferred option in the 2nd half of playoff games..

Among 90's sidekicks, only Pippen wasn't capable of elite scoring and had low peak capability (not on scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif)), so only MJ had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in every series)..

Everyone in history just had to score, except MJ who had to carry the scoring load in every series (defeat maximum defensive attention)..