Bird, Kobe, Hakeem and Magic. How do you rank them

[colts19]

On another forum, they ask this question, so I thought I would see how people here felt. Please list them in the order you have them on your all-time list.

Bird
Magic
Kobe
Hakeem

[1987_Lakers]

Career
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe

Peak
Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Kobe

[Manny98]

1. Magic
2. Bird
3. Kobe
4. Hakeem

[1987_Lakers]

I think most people have these guys ranked #8-#11 on the all-time list.

[SouBeachTalents]

All time
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe

Peak
Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Kobe

[Full Court]

Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Kobe

Kobe's the only one of the four that I have outside of top 10.

[fsvr54]

This is honestly where ranking get ridiculous to me. People are obbsessed with numbered rankings. I'd prefer tiers. These guys are all all-timers. The only ranking that matters is GOAT. Then there's "the greats" and then everybody else.

[Round Mound]

Career
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe

Peak
Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Kobe

This

[John8204]

1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Kobe
4. Hakeem

[HoopsNY]

Career
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe

Peak
Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Kobe

Definitely agree with this.

[colts19]

I can understand having Hakeem's peak higher than Kobe's. I don't understand him being ahead of Kobe for his career. 5 championships to 2, also Hakeem either missed the playoffs or lost in the first round 10 times. By far the most of any all-time great.

[SouBeachTalents]

I can understand having Hakeem's peak higher than Kobe's. I don't understand him being ahead of Kobe for his career.]5 championships to 2, also Hakeem either missed the playoffs or lost in the first round 10 times. By far the most of any all-time great.
Seriously bro, you're throwing out the 5-2 rangz argument like Kobe wasn't 2nd fiddle to Shaq for 3 of them :lol Imagine a circumstance where Hakeem was 2nd fiddle to anybody, or even 1A/1B, do you really think he's not winning multiple titles in a situation like that?

And your 2nd point is completely devoid of context. Of those 10 times he lost in the first round/missed the playoffs

One of them occurred his rookie year, where he helped lead a team that won 29 games the year before to the playoffs, something rookie Kobe would literally be incapable of.

And 4 more occurred when he was 35+ years old, an age Kobe also never made the playoffs.

So of the other 5, you can criticize Hakeem for not winning a playoff series if you want, but when Kobe had similar level rosters (05-07), he didn't win a playoff series either.

So if you factor in Hakeem being a 2x DPOY and having 2 significantly more impressive FMVP runs than Kobe, it's definitely reasonable to rank Hakeem ahead of Kobe. 5-2 is just such a shitty argument, you would need to present something better than that as a valid reason for Kobe to be ranked higher.

[2much_knowledge]

Its very tough.

Kobe was the most talented and skilled and driven of all of them

Bird had the best peak and highest i.q

Love hakeem but his success came when Jordan wasnt around

The answer is magic, just a winner at every level. From start to finish

[John8204]

Kobe is the second best SG of all-time that ranks him ahead of the sixth best C in Hakeem

[plowking]

Bird
Hakeem
Kobe
Magic

Magic is the biggest beneficiary of "rings" being counted as the be all and end all of a player supposedly being great. Never considered better than Bird during their playing years. Only since the ring argument from lazy fans who can't break down a player for what they are came about, that is when Magic started climbing these all time lists.

[pandiani17]

1. Magic
2. Bird
3. Kobe
4. Hakeem

This.

[bison]

Lordbe
Magic
Bird
Hakeem

[Hey Yo]

Bird
Hakeem
Kobe
Magic

Magic is the biggest beneficiary of "rings" being counted as the be all and end all of a player supposedly being great. Never considered better than Bird during their playing years. Only since the ring argument from lazy fans who can't break down a player for what they are came about, that is when Magic started climbing these all time lists.

:applause:

[ShawkFactory]

Career
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe

Peak
Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Kobe

Why is Hakeems career greater than Kobe’s?

[1987_Lakers]

Why is Hakeems career greater than Kobe’s?

You can for sure make an argument for Kobe, wouldn't fight too hard if someone ranks him ahead of Hakeem, he has the longevity edge. But to me Hakeem is the GOAT defender since the merger and probably the most skilled scorer ever from the 5 spot, his peak to me was clearly a notch ahead of Kobe's, which is why I rank him ahead on the all-time list.

[John8204]

You can for sure make an argument for Kobe, wouldn't fight too hard if someone ranks him ahead of Hakeem, he has the longevity edge. But to me Hakeem is the GOAT defender since the merger and probably the most skilled scorer ever from the 5 spot, his peak to me was clearly a notch ahead of Kobe's, which is why I rank him ahead on the all-time list.

Are their any other players at Kobe's position that you would rank ahead of him other than Jordan?

[1987_Lakers]

Are their any other players at Kobe's position that you would rank ahead of him other than Jordan?

Probably not, but Jerry West is right behind him, if you consider him a SG, some list West as a PG.

Out of all the positions, the SG is the weakest in terms of top tier talent. You can make a case for Harden, Iverson, or Drexler being slotted in the #5 spot in terms of greatest SGs ever, all 3 of those players had noticeable flaws.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Magic is the best of them.

[3ba11]

Career
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe

Peak
Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Kobe


Did Bird repeat?

Did Magic 3-peat with Kareem?

So how is Kobe < them?

Explain

And Hakeem's titles are the most diluted in history (beating 2nd Round winners in the Finals)

[Hey Yo]

LOL @ suggesting Kobe 3-peated.

[1987_Lakers]

And Hakeem's titles are the most diluted in history (beating 2nd Round winners in the Finals)

Didn't MJ lose to the same Magic team that Hakeem beat?

[1987_Lakers]

Did Bird repeat?

Did Magic 3-peat with Kareem?

So how is Kobe < them?

Explain



Kobe played with a teammate who received max defensive attention. :oldlol:

[3ba11]

Kobe played with a teammate who received max defensive attention. :oldlol:


That's totally fair... No need to laugh

Probably the best point you ever made and it exactly describes the problem with playing with peak Shaq

However, Magic had Kareem, so it's the same... Yet he never 3-peated like Kobe, aka Kobe >>>

Furthermore, Kobe repeated in 09-10' (like Magic), except Kobe defeated maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load for playoffs and Finals)

So Kobe is superior by 3-peating as a 1b and also repeating while defeating maximum defensive attention in 09/10

[ShawkFactory]

That's totally fair... No need to laugh

Probably the best point you ever made and it exactly describes the problem with playing with peak Shaq

However, Magic had Kareem, so it's the same... Yet he never 3-peated like Kobe, aka Kobe >>>

Furthermore, Kobe repeated in 09-10' (like Magic), except Kobe defeated maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load for playoffs and Finals)

So Kobe is superior by 3-peating as a 1b and also repeating while defeating maximum defensive attention in 09/10

Neither is superior. They're completely different players in completely different circumstances in completely different eras.

[Round Mound]

Probably not, but Jerry West is right behind him, if you consider him a SG, some list West as a PG.

Out of all the positions, the SG is the weakest in terms of top tier talent. You can make a case for Harden, Iverson, or Drexler being slotted in the #5 spot in terms of greatest SGs ever, all 3 of those players had noticeable flaws.

Where do you rank Wade regarding all time SGs?

[John8204]

Probably not, but Jerry West is right behind him, if you consider him a SG, some list West as a PG.

Out of all the positions, the SG is the weakest in terms of top tier talent. You can make a case for Harden, Iverson, or Drexler being slotted in the #5 spot in terms of greatest SGs ever, all 3 of those players had noticeable flaws.

I agree I got Kobe at #9 and Jerry in the #11-13 all-time range. I think winning rings as a SG is damn near impossible so for me 1/2/3 is easily Jordan/Kobe/Jerry and then I would lean towards Gervin, Maravich, and Iverson. Hakeem on the other hand is good but he's kinda in a class with a bunch of other great centers.

[WhiteKyrie]

Career
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Kobe

Peak

Hakeem
Bird
Magic
Kobe
How is one a “Laker Fan” but such a Kobe hater?

Career:
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Hakeem

Peak:
Hakeem
Bird
Kobe
Magic

Prime:
Hakeem
Kobe
Magic
Bird

[1987_Lakers]

Where do you rank Wade regarding all time SGs?

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Harden

[WhiteKyrie]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Wade
5. Harden
Exactly correct. However I could make a case for Drexler over Harden.

[1987_Lakers]

Exactly correct. However I could make a case for Drexler over Harden.

Nah, Harden was a superior scorer.

[WhiteKyrie]

Nah, Harden was a superior scorer.

Nah, Harden plays in a more super star ball dominate as both the facilitator and scorer era.

So of course he would have gaudier stats. I could still make the case Drexler was the better all around player and didn’t crash and burn in the playoffs. As I said, the case can be made.

Harden is still kind of in many ways a joke based on his spectacularly underwhelming playoff career and collapses. It’s not a lock for #5

[1987_Lakers]

Nah, you could make the case Drexler was the better all around player and didn’t crash and burn in the playoffs. As I said, the case can be made. Harden is still kind of a joke based on his spectacularly underwhelming playoff career and collapses. It’s not a lock for #5

Drexler had two playoff runs at his peak in '90 & '91 where he averaged 21.5 ppg on 45-46 fg%, his scoring skills in general weren't really that impressive.

Maybe Drexler was better all-around if you factor in defense (even though Drexler wasn't known for his defense), but Harden was an elite playmaker along with Drexler and such a superior scorer that it's an easy choice for me.

[3ba11]

Neither is superior. They're completely different players in completely different circumstances in completely different eras.


Kobe's elite jumpshooting skill can score a lot while the ball moves (good brand of ball) and therefore beat top teams with high scoring levels or volume.

Otoh, Magic is just a ball-dominator at high scoring levels (weak brand), so he gets demolished when he tries to carry the scoring load like the upset loss to KJ in 1990.

Since Magic can't carry the scoring load, he needs more star help (scoring help) such as Kareem and can't win with sidekicks like Worthy or Pau.. aka Magic was demolished with All-NBA Worthy in 90' and 91', including the 91' loss where Worthy, Vlade and Perkins got 17+ in the Finals.. So Kobe repeated with casts that Magic was demolished with

[ShawkFactory]

Magic Johnson played a weak brand of basketball.

Now I've heard it all.

[3ba11]

Magic Johnson played a weak brand of basketball.

Now I've heard it all.


Magic can't win with high scoring while Kobe can

Since Magic can't carry the scoring load, he needs more star help (scoring help) such as Kareem and can't win with sidekicks like Worthy or Pau.. aka Magic was demolished with All-NBA Worthy in 90' and 91', including the 91' loss where Worthy, Vlade and Perkins got 17+ in the Finals..

So Kobe repeated with casts that Magic was demolished with..

[1987_Lakers]

Since Magic can't carry the scoring load, he needs more star help (scoring help) such as Kareem and can't win with sidekicks like Worthy or Pau..

Wtf are you talking about? Magic won a title with Worthy as his sidekick in '87 & '88.

Then again, I'm talking to someone who once said Worthy > Durant.

[ShawkFactory]

Magic can't win with high scoring while Kobe can

Since Magic can't carry the scoring load, he needs more star help (scoring help) such as Kareem and can't win with sidekicks like Worthy or Pau.. aka Magic was demolished with All-NBA Worthy in 90' and 91', including the 91' loss where Worthy, Vlade and Perkins got 17+ in the Finals..

So Kobe repeated with casts that Magic was demolished with..

Wasn't Worthy famously injured in that series in 91? And when you're trying to make another type of argument (I believe it's a Worthy > Pippen one) haven't you attributed the Bulls win on Worthy being hurt?

The answer to both of those questions is yes.

[3ba11]

Wtf are you talking about? Magic won a title with Worthy as his sidekick in '87 & '88.



PLAYOFFS

87' Worthy..... 24 on 59%
87' Magic'...... 21 on 54%

88' Worthy..... 21 on 53% (FMVP)
88' Magic...... 20 on 51%


Everyone in history had teammates lead in scoring for entire playoff runs except MJ, who led his sidekick by 10-30 in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

And that's the key - CARRYING the scoring load - only MJ and Kobe did it for multiple title runs

Since Kobe could carry the scoring load like MJ, he therefore didn't need an all-time producer at sidekick like Kareem and could win with Pau or Worthy -caliber

[1987_Lakers]

PLAYOFFS

87' Worthy..... 24 on 59%
87' Magic'...... 21 on 54%

88' Worthy..... 21 on 53% (FMVP)
88' Magic...... 20 on 51%


Completely disregards Magic's playmaking abilities, but you know what's worse? You lying about stats again.

Worthy averaged 23.6 ppg in '87 postseason, you rounded that up to 24.
Magic averaged 21.8 ppg in '87 postseason (also dished out 12 apg), you rounded that down to 21.

Shameful.

[3ba11]

Wasn't Worthy famously injured in that series in 91? And when you're trying to make another type of argument (I believe it's a Worthy > Pippen one) haven't you attributed the Bulls win on Worthy being hurt?

The answer to both of those questions is yes.


Magic was massive upset by KJ in 90' because tried to be a scorer

And a hobbled Worthy still nearly matched Pippen's ppg in the 91' Finals - Magic had 3 teammates average 17+ in that series

Magic simply can't win without goat scoring help like Kareem because he himself cannot carry the scoring load and therefore win with less help like Pau or Worthy

[ShawkFactory]

Magic was destroyed by KJ in 90' because tried to be a scorer

And a hobbled Worthy still nearly matched Pippen's ppg in the 91' Finals - Magic had 3 teammates average 17+ in that series

He simply can't win without goat scoring help like Kareem because he himself cannot carry the scoring load and therefore win with less help

:roll:

Love seeing you dance around that one.

[3ba11]

:roll:

Love seeing you dance around that one.


Magic had 3 teammates get pippen-production in the 91' Finals (17-20 ppg)

So as usual, Jordan was outgunned by superior scoring help but still won - Jordan made 6 Finals that way and won 6 Finals that way

Otoh, Magic can't win without goat scoring help like Kareem because he himself cannot carry the scoring load and therefore win with less help like Worthy, Pippen or Pau

[ShawkFactory]

Magic had 3 teammates get pippen-production in the 91' Finals (17-20 ppg)

So as usual, Jordan was outgunned by superior scoring help but still won - Jordan made 6 Finals that way and won 6 Finals that way

Otoh, Magic can't win without goat scoring help like Kareem because he himself cannot carry the scoring load and therefore win with less help like Worthy, Pippen or Pau

They all 3 must have been as good as Pippen then.

[3ba11]

They all 3 must have been as good as Pippen then.


Pippen averaged 19 on 42% in 6 Finals with a range of 15-21 ppg, so Magic had 3 teammates that play at this level for the 91' Finals (pippen-caliber).

And Pippen had the lowest peak capability - everyone's best was superior to Pippen's best.. So Pippen's best series was probably the 91' Finals, which was nothing compared to Worthy's 88' Finals (FMVP) or 87' ECF. (30 on 62%).

[1987_Lakers]

Completely disregards Magic's playmaking abilities, but you know what's worse? You lying about stats again.

Worthy averaged 23.6 ppg in '87 postseason, you rounded that up to 24.
Magic averaged 21.8 ppg in '87 postseason (also dished out 12 apg), you rounded that down to 21.

Shameful.

3ball gonna blame this on faulty memory as usual. :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen averaged 19 on 42% in 6 Finals with a range of 15-21 ppg, so Magic had 3 teammates that play at this level for the 91' Finals (pippen-caliber).

And Pippen had the lowest peak capability - everyone's best was superior to Pippen's best.. So Pippen's best series was probably the 91' Finals, which was nothing compared to Worthy's 88' Finals (FMVP) or 87' ECF. (30 on 62%).

Soooo...yes?

[SouBeachTalents]

3ball logic, Alex English > Magic due to ppgz.

[3ba11]

Soooo...yes?


Jordan's cast was clearly outplayed in the 91' Finals and outscored in literally every series of Jordan's career except maybe 1

[ShawkFactory]

Jordan's cast was clearly outplayed in the 91' Finals and outscored in literally every series of Jordan's career except maybe 1

Unfortunately for you all 5 games in 1991 finals are free on YouTube. Anyone can see that what you’re saying isn’t true.

Lie about something no one will be able to know about.