If Embiid and Jokic had to run the center gauntlet in 1995 how many get outpayed?

[Kblaze8855]

Hakeem, Drob, Shaq, Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo.

They play the teams those guys were on with the teams and coaches they currently have with all 1995 rules in place. 2022 76ers vs the 95 Rockets and so on.

How many of the 6 would you expect the modern guys to outplay head to head regardless of who won the games?

[FultzNationRISE]

All of them, and easily.

[RRR3]

I would expect them to outplay Ewing Mourning and Mutombo.

[RogueBorg]

Hakeem, Drob, Shaq, Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo.

They play the teams those guys were on with the teams and coaches they currently have with all 1995 rules in place. 2022 76ers vs the 95 Rockets and so on.

How many of the 6 would you expect the modern guys to outplay head to head regardless of who won the games?

Only Mourning and Mutombo.

Olajuwon, Shaq, Robinson, and Ewing were beasts down low.

[RRR3]

Ewing lol. Nostalgia stans at it again.

[Kblaze8855]

This is that Ewing giving Shaq 38 so it’s not like he couldn’t go toe to toe with anyone:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdeptClassicAnkole-size_restricted.gif


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WindingImmaterialFairyfly-size_restricted.gif


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/UncomfortableImpracticalIcelandgull-size_restricted.gif



And he was already way less athletic by then.

[Overdrive]

Outplay, how? On average, atleast one game, every game played?

[1987_Lakers]

They would obviously be ranked ahead of Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo. Slightly below Shaq, D-Rob and Hakeem.

I'll probably trust Embiid and Jokic more than D-Rob around playoff time since Robinson's offensive game had trouble translating to postseason play.

[RogueBorg]

Ewing lol. Nostalgia stans at it again.

Ewing was a great player. Olajuwon and Shaq were obviously better, and up and through 1993 Robinson had not yet passed Ewing. Jokic would struggle mightily trying to guard Ewing. All 4 of them (Olajuwon, Shaq, Robinson, and yes Ewing) would eat Jokic up when he's trying to guard them.

[RRR3]

Ewing was a great player. Olajuwon and Shaq were obviously better, and up and through 1993 Robinson had not yet passed Ewing. Jokic would struggle mightily trying to guard Ewing. All 4 of them (Olajuwon, Shaq, Robinson, and yes Ewing) would eat Jokic up when he's trying to guard them.
I didn’t say he wasn’t a great player. Clearly below Jokic and Embiid though.

[jlip]

The most interesting matchup to me would be peak Jokic vs. young Shaq. Obviously Jokic would have trouble guarding Shaq in the paint. That's a given. Also though, while '95 Shaq was more athletic and mobile than peak 2000 to 2002 Shaq, if Jokic were to bring him outside the paint, I could see Shaq having problems guarding him, also while Jokic's passing game would be like Portland Sabonis on steroids.

[FultzNationRISE]

Ewing was a great player. Olajuwon and Shaq were obviously better, and up and through 1993 Robinson had not yet passed Ewing. Jokic would struggle mightily trying to guard Ewing. All 4 of them (Olajuwon, Shaq, Robinson, and yes Ewing) would eat Jokic up when he's trying to guard them.


Based on what logic?

Jokic just destroyed the league in rebounding. Usually need to be tough, stout, long and savvy to do that. Which clearly he is. Cant think of many great rebounders who arent good defenders.

The guys you listed are not pulling him out to the perimeter to be chased around screens all game. So I dont see what the problem is.

[1987_Lakers]

Ewing was a great player. Olajuwon and Shaq were obviously better, and up and through 1993 Robinson had not yet passed Ewing. Jokic would struggle mightily trying to guard Ewing. All 4 of them (Olajuwon, Shaq, Robinson, and yes Ewing) would eat Jokic up when he's trying to guard them.

Ewing peaked in the early 90's, but '95 his play started to dip a little.

[SATAN]

They would have grown up playing differently. What's the point?

[Kblaze8855]

. Based on what logic?

Probably then eating each other up and everyone else even when faced with great defense?

[hateraid]

It all depends on what team they're on.

Embiid on the 95 Sixers would have been a statistical monster but the team is competing in a physical conference with no other front court help and no true PG. He would have dominated but not made the playoffs.

Replace him on the Bulls they may have won a title and Embiid the MVP.

[TheGoatest]

I'll put it like this: Embiid and Jokic would do a hell of a lot better against Hakeem, Drob, Shaq, Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo than Mitch Richmond, Reggie Miller, Latrell Sprewell and John Starks would do against perimeter players of the 2010s.

[jayfan]

Based on what logic?

Jokic just destroyed the league in rebounding. Usually need to be tough, stout, long and savvy to do that. Which clearly he is. Cant think of many great rebounders who arent good defenders.

The guys you listed are not pulling him out to the perimeter to be chased around screens all game. So I dont see what the problem is.

Andre Drummond, for one. Horrible defender. (not that it matters to the discussion).

[SouBeachTalents]

Dikembe frankly doesn’t belong in this discussion, he’s not remotely close to the offensive capabilities of the others. And while an elite player, Zo is not in the class of the others either.

Of the remaining 6, Ewings the worst, esp the ‘95 version, then Embiid would prob be 5th.

If forced to rank the rest, I’d prob go

Hakeem
Shaq
Robinson
Jokic

But if you wanted to rank Jokic higher, I wouldn’t disagree.

[FultzNationRISE]

Probably then eating each other up and everyone else even when faced with great defense?


I get that, but in the sense of him faring any worse than the rest of the lot on defense, I dont see it. Not sure what Ewing or Shaq can do around the basket that Jokic cant. Obviously in today’s game all big men are gonna be targeted and the perimeter is their weakness. But by the previous eras standards? Jokic shouldnt have any problems being a quality defender.

[Kblaze8855]

The rest of that lot? It’s five of the greatest defenders ever and Shaq. Not mostly for man to man reasons but defensively in general? He’s comfortably behind 5 of them isn’t he?

Not that it means they would light him up….but I don’t see him keeping any of them the least bit in check. His being there wouldn’t be a factor for any of them far as what they can get done. Not in the way all of them would have to get up for a Hakeem or Drob defensive matchup. Or Ewing for that matter. He’d just get his right back. Maybe a 95 finals situation where it’s remembered as Hakeem kicking Shaqs ass but you look into it he got his as well kinda thing.

Hes roughly the same caliber of player as some of them(clearly above the least of them). I’m just saying he’s not presenting any defensive issues for them. He’s top 2-3 on offense in that group and bottom 2 on D I think we would all agree.

[Full Court]

Shaq and Hakeem would eat Embiid and Jokic for lunch. I'd favor Robinson too. I could see them outplaying Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo though, but it would be an interesting matchup.

[RogueBorg]

Ewing peaked in the early 90's, but '95 his play started to dip a little.

I agree.

[RogueBorg]

Based on what logic?

Jokic just destroyed the league in rebounding. Usually need to be tough, stout, long and savvy to do that. Which clearly he is. Cant think of many great rebounders who arent good defenders.

The guys you listed are not pulling him out to the perimeter to be chased around screens all game. So I dont see what the problem is.

On a scale of 1 to a 100 where would rank Jokic defensively in the paint?

[FultzNationRISE]

The rest of that lot? It’s five of the greatest defenders ever and Shaq. Not mostly for man to man reasons but defensively in general? He’s comfortably behind 5 of them isn’t he?

Not that it means they would light him up….but I don’t see him keeping any of them the least bit in check. His being there wouldn’t be a factor for any of them far as what they can get done. Not in the way all of them would have to get up for a Hakeem or Drob defensive matchup. Or Ewing for that matter. He’d just get his right back. Maybe a 95 finals situation where it’s remembered as Hakeem kicking Shaqs ass but you look into it he got his as well kinda thing.

Hes roughly the same caliber of player as some of them(clearly above the least of them). I’m just saying he’s not presenting any defensive issues for them. He’s top 2-3 on offense in that group and bottom 2 on D I think we would all agree.

Thats right. My point was he’s not the sitting duck people were suggesting. He plays better D than Shaq Id wager, and I think you also have to ask how much the fact 90’s centers rarely got dragged away from the basket helped enable them to be so dangerous on the interior. It’s a different game now. Jokic of course is not Hakeem or DRob level but if he goes back to the 90s he definitely gets a boost to his already solid level. I wouldnt see any reason for a big gap to exist between him and say, Ewing

[FultzNationRISE]

On a scale of 1 to a 100 where would rank Jokic defensively in the paint?

Strictly in the paint?

Depends how you rank such things. Is Amare Stoudemire a 65? Is it like school tests where you dont actually bother to go below a certain level, you just mark it a failure?

Or is Stoudemire, like, a 15?

[Xiao Yao You]

In 1995 Embiid's career would have been short. They weren't babied back then.

[Mask the Embiid]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTWDC-Q9aMjg02I6PTo7Ld_bXbsOjl85tMWbDhZxJ5ABSzwIBqzBOehF KAPPajbqSpy95A&usqp=CAU
https://www.si.com/.image/ar_1:1%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_aut o:good%2Cw_1200/MTY4MTAyNDczNTkzODU3NDA4/blake-griffin-rudy-gobert-dunkjpg.jpg
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/MOqCf-7kbOYsQ7KT0-VzpdYDZAk=/0x0:3750x2881/1200x800/filters:focal(1666x570:2266x1170)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/70405695/usa_today_17523166.0.jpg
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/H7Zr.t6sKOGtF1aEhMXpvw--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTY0MDtoPTgyNw--/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/vUBY6OZYuANvFM8a_P1Tmw--~B/aD0zNjAwO3c9Mjc4NjthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/sports.ap.org/024e943cb51fe578b7a9b7eec8be79e1
https://sports.mynorthwest.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/ap_77ddfa04394940759ecb69edcb594ffa-900x506.jpg

[Full Court]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTWDC-Q9aMjg02I6PTo7Ld_bXbsOjl85tMWbDhZxJ5ABSzwIBqzBOehF KAPPajbqSpy95A&usqp=CAU
https://www.si.com/.image/ar_1:1%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_aut o:good%2Cw_1200/MTY4MTAyNDczNTkzODU3NDA4/blake-griffin-rudy-gobert-dunkjpg.jpg
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/MOqCf-7kbOYsQ7KT0-VzpdYDZAk=/0x0:3750x2881/1200x800/filters:focal(1666x570:2266x1170)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/70405695/usa_today_17523166.0.jpg
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/H7Zr.t6sKOGtF1aEhMXpvw--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTY0MDtoPTgyNw--/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/vUBY6OZYuANvFM8a_P1Tmw--~B/aD0zNjAwO3c9Mjc4NjthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/sports.ap.org/024e943cb51fe578b7a9b7eec8be79e1
https://sports.mynorthwest.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/ap_77ddfa04394940759ecb69edcb594ffa-900x506.jpg

I'm no Gobert fan, but you can cherrypick clips like that for any player. How many DPOY awards has the guy won?

[Mask the Embiid]

https://64.media.tumblr.com/cfad0b62f9f4c2369dbb2ca90d009ce0/tumblr_nj9fg1zgxi1u2klrwo1_r1_540.gifv
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https://i.ytimg.com/vi/lYC6oQIAzbI/maxresdefault.jpg
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[Mask the Embiid]

Sacrebleu!

https://i.postimg.cc/JhfhBKBS/TeprhU0.gif

[Reggie43]

Hakeem, Shaq, Drob were obviously better but I would like to see Jokic and Embiid try to get their numbers against Ewing with Oakley and Mason by his side.

[999Guy]

Could see Shaq really bothering Embiid.

Hakeem would torch Nikola.


Mourning and Hakeem are the best bets to slow Jokic. Dike, Ewing, and D-Rob’s center of gravity are just too high. Hakeem and Alonzo are shorter, stronger still quick and with great hands on Hakeem’s part.

Embiid is different. Gut says Hakeem would bother him a bit but size differences is something Embiid really thrives on. Moreso than Nikola. Embiid could simplify things and just back Hakeem down or seal him.

Most matchups would lend themselves to shootouts though.

Jokic and Shaq would trade 30+ point nights. Especially Orlando Shaq. D-Rob would kill both with his face up game.

[iamgine]

Jokic and Embiid would feast. None of those centers could shoot 3s and in 1995, the 3pt line was shortened. Many of the things that makes those 90s centers great (rim protection, rebounding, blocking shots) would largely be diminished when they just get switched on the perimeter or have to defend Jokic spamming 10 3s a game.

I expect total obliteration of the 90s team.

[RogueBorg]

Strictly in the paint?



Yeah, because Jokic will have to guard Dream, Ewing, and Shaq in the paint. Robinson would too but he and Ewing could also step outside and hit the midrange.

So how does the big slow lumbering Jokic do guarding these guys in the paint?

I think they eat him alive.

[Kblaze8855]

Hakeem, Shaq, Drob were obviously better but I would like to see Jokic and Embiid try to get their numbers against Ewing with Oakley and Mason by his side.

That’s one of the things it seems so many young fans don’t get. Teams played with 2 real bigs and often had a couple more to spare so it wasn’t one tall guy we call a center and 4 wings. That’s easy to dominate inside and gobble up rebounds. It was Ewing, Oakley, and Mason all of which were double digit rebounders or would be on their own team. Oakley got 30 rebounds on the Bulls. You play the Spurs it’s not just Drob. Dennis Rodman is next to him getting 15-25 rebounds a night. Hakeem is with Otis Thorpe who even if you didn’t know him…you know he’s named Otis. Enough said. Shaq is with Horace Grant. Mourning with Larry Johnson and later PJ Brown. Smits was one of 3 all star centers on his team and none of them were the best defensive big on the team. Mutombo is the only one who was the only true physical presence on his team.

Im not saying modern guys couldn’t hang. Especially Jokic and Embiid who are all timers. I’m just saying the conditions for stacking numbers would be very different.

A lot of those guys would have had better numbers if usually they were the only true old school big ones the floor and the other guy was a stretch big surrounded by wings and guards. Be like playing Sam Perkins except instead of Kemp next to him he has Rashard Lewis. Presents problems of its own but definitely some advantages inside.

Put Shaq, Hakeem, or Drob on the floor with 8 perimeter players and a 6’9” bum who can either only dunk or only shoot 3s so they can swap a wing on them and just let them roam.

Those rebounding numbers go up quick. They played with too many other big competitors who limited their production.

Im sure the per minute numbers change.

That said…blocks likely go down for a guy like Zo who wanted you to come to him and guys who didn’t wanna step outside.

But a guy like Hakeem or David who could move and do it all?

Be something to see.

[FultzNationRISE]

That’s one of the things it seems so many young fans don’t get. Teams played with 2 real bigs and often had a couple more to spare so it wasn’t one tall guy we call a center and 4 wings. That’s easy to dominate inside and gobble up rebounds. It was Ewing, Oakley, and Mason all of which were double digit rebounders or would be on their own team. Oakley got 30 rebounds on the Bulls. You play the Spurs it’s not just Drob. Dennis Rodman is next to him getting 15-25 rebounds a night. Hakeem is with Otis Thorpe who even if you didn’t know him…you know he’s named Otis. Enough said. Shaq is with Horace Grant. Mourning with Larry Johnson and later PJ Brown. Smits was one of 3 all star centers on his team and none of them were the best defensive big on the team. Mutombo is the only one who was the only true physical presence on his team.

Im not saying modern guys couldn’t hang. Especially Jokic and Embiid who are all timers. I’m just saying the conditions for stacking numbers would be very different.

A lot of those guys would have had better numbers if usually they were the only true old school big ones the floor and the other guy was a stretch big surrounded by wings and guards. Be like playing Sam Perkins except instead of Kemp next to him he has Rashard Lewis. Presents problems of its own but definitely some advantages inside.

Put Shaq, Hakeem, or Drob on the floor with 8 perimeter players and a 6’9” bum who can either only dunk or only shoot 3s so they can swap a wing on them and just let them roam.

Those rebounding numbers go up quick. They played with too many other big competitors who limited their production.

Im sure the per minute numbers change.

That said…blocks likely go down for a guy like Zo who wanted you to come to him and guys who didn’t wanna step outside.

But a guy like Hakeem or David who could move and do it all?

Be something to see.


Someone should let the rest of today’s centers know that then, bc they didnt all average 14 per game this season like Joker did.

He’s clearly an above average rebounder any which way you measure it. Theres no reason to think he’s getting abused defensively by the likes of Zo and Ewing.

Yes, I agree Dream and Admiral will finesse him all game long, but it’s not like he cant serve em back just the same. Draymond got all he could handle in the playoffs (did a very respectable job but Joker still scored plenty) so dont see why it would be diff for those other guys.

[SouBeachTalents]

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2018/10/24/PDTF/d001b2d5-0b94-4fd6-a159-8fc2e91b5ec7-pistons_012318_kd-8.jpg?crop=2157,1213,x0,y97&width=2157&height=1213&format=pjpg&auto=webp

https://e0.365dm.com/19/05/800x600/kawhi-leonard-joel-embiid-nba_4662320.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HDkj0opvl3A/maxresdefault.jpg

https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/06/John-Collins-shirt-dunk-Joel-Embiid-Hawks-76ers.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=704

https://c.tenor.com/pviytsQ6vJsAAAAd/joel-embiid-crying.gif

[Kblaze8855]

Someone should let the rest of today’s centers know that then, bc they didnt all average 14 per game this season like Joker did.

He’s clearly an above average rebounder any which way you measure it. Theres no reason to think he’s getting abused defensively by the likes of Zo and Ewing.

Yes, I agree Dream and Admiral will finesse him all game long, but it’s not like he cant serve em back just the same. Draymond got all he could handle in the playoffs (did a very respectable job but Joker still scored plenty) so dont see why it would be diff for those other guys.


Deandre Jordan, Rudy, Capela, Drummond, Jokic…all of them have been in the 14-16 rebound a game range and none of them play old school minutes. Capela gets 12 and 14 a game the last couple seasons in 28 and 30 minutes a night. David Robinson the year in question played 38+ minutes to get 10. Think maybe playing next to Dennis Rodman is a factor? Ewing getting 11 in 38 minutes next to Mason and Oakley? Think it factored in? Drummond 16 rebounds a game on the Pistons in low minutes with the next two tallest players taking 6 threes a game each. Don’t think it helps?

Its not about Jokic or Embiid or anyone specifically. It’s about a league of stretch bigs and wings and every decent physical big being able to push them around.

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say the likes of Hakeem, David, and Shaq who dominated vs teams built to slow them could do a little better vs teams that are built for spacing.

Real bigs dominate these wings and lob specialists. As Jokic and Embiid show.

[TheMan]

I would expect them to outplay Ewing Mourning and Mutombo.

I don't know about Ewing, he had a jumper and could kill you down low. Mutombo has the defense over both of them, maybe vs Mourning but that's it. The other guys would kill Embid and Jokic.

[TheMan]

That’s one of the things it seems so many young fans don’t get. Teams played with 2 real bigs and often had a couple more to spare so it wasn’t one tall guy we call a center and 4 wings. That’s easy to dominate inside and gobble up rebounds. It was Ewing, Oakley, and Mason all of which were double digit rebounders or would be on their own team. Oakley got 30 rebounds on the Bulls. You play the Spurs it’s not just Drob. Dennis Rodman is next to him getting 15-25 rebounds a night. Hakeem is with Otis Thorpe who even if you didn’t know him…you know he’s named Otis. Enough said. Shaq is with Horace Grant. Mourning with Larry Johnson and later PJ Brown. Smits was one of 3 all star centers on his team and none of them were the best defensive big on the team. Mutombo is the only one who was the only true physical presence on his team.

Im not saying modern guys couldn’t hang. Especially Jokic and Embiid who are all timers. I’m just saying the conditions for stacking numbers would be very different.

A lot of those guys would have had better numbers if usually they were the only true old school big ones the floor and the other guy was a stretch big surrounded by wings and guards. Be like playing Sam Perkins except instead of Kemp next to him he has Rashard Lewis. Presents problems of its own but definitely some advantages inside.

Put Shaq, Hakeem, or Drob on the floor with 8 perimeter players and a 6’9” bum who can either only dunk or only shoot 3s so they can swap a wing on them and just let them roam.

Those rebounding numbers go up quick. They played with too many other big competitors who limited their production.

Im sure the per minute numbers change.

That said…blocks likely go down for a guy like Zo who wanted you to come to him and guys who didn’t wanna step outside.

But a guy like Hakeem or David who could move and do it all?

Be something to see.

Great post :applause:

[MadDogg]

Prime Hakeem & Shaq are winning most of their matchups. Shaq's brute play and weight would cause them fatigue, impacting their offensive output. Hakeem was a handful on both ends and showed he could carry a larger burden than Embiid and Joker. I also trust his cardio more than theirs.

I could see a prime DRob (more athletic and a better 2 way player than Jokic) winning over 50% of his matchups. Its close though. Ewing/Mutombo/Zo would have their share of good games, and may even clamp a few of them from time to time. Overall, though, I think Embiid and Joker have too much in their bag. They'd win most of their duels.

[FultzNationRISE]

Deandre Jordan, Rudy, Capela, Drummond, Jokic…all of them have been in the 14-16 rebound a game range and none of them play old school minutes. Capela gets 12 and 14 a game the last couple seasons in 28 and 30 minutes a night. David Robinson the year in question played 38+ minutes to get 10. Think maybe playing next to Dennis Rodman is a factor? Ewing getting 11 in 38 minutes next to Mason and Oakley? Think it factored in? Drummond 16 rebounds a game on the Pistons in low minutes with the next two tallest players taking 6 threes a game each. Don’t think it helps?

Its not about Jokic or Embiid or anyone specifically. It’s about a league of stretch bigs and wings and every decent physical big being able to push them around.

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say the likes of Hakeem, David, and Shaq who dominated vs teams built to slow them could do a little better vs teams that are built for spacing.

Real bigs dominate these wings and lob specialists. As Jokic and Embiid show.


Right, and theyre all considered defensive standouts except Jokic.

It’s bifurcation bias. People know Rudy and Drummon arent in the league for their offensive game, so theyre more confident claiming what amazing defenders those guys are. People see Jokic as an offensive star and assume he’s probably unremarkable on defense. (And obviously the skin color is a factor). But he’s actually pretty good. Not elite, but good.

[RRR3]

Jokic and Embiid would feast. None of those centers could shoot 3s and in 1995, the 3pt line was shortened. Many of the things that makes those 90s centers great (rim protection, rebounding, blocking shots) would largely be diminished when they just get switched on the perimeter or have to defend Jokic spamming 10 3s a game.

I expect total obliteration of the 90s team.
Neither Jokic or Embiid are great 3 point shooters, and both prefer to play inside the line.

[Kblaze8855]

Right, and theyre all considered defensive standouts except Jokic.

It’s bifurcation bias. People know Rudy and Drummon arent in the league for their offensive game, so theyre more confident claiming what amazing defenders those guys are. People see Jokic as an offensive star and assume he’s probably unremarkable on defense. (And obviously the skin color is a factor). But he’s actually pretty good. Not elite, but good.


Which has what to do with your reply to me talking about rebounding relative to era with Jokics rebounding in this era? He and all the top rebounders these days benefit from small ball letting them often be the only real bigs on the floor. How you take that into racial issues is weird.

Todays good rebounders get huge boards in low minutes which makes them comparable rebounders by numbers alone to the guys in question while not accounting for era related differences was the point. I don’t think I mentioned his defense at all in the post you replied to.

I just don’t think it’s by chance all these guys have historic rebounding numbers in less minutes than some of the best bigs ever. Moses Malone in his absolute prime as an mvp got 14 rebounds a game playing 42 minutes a night. Capela got 14 a game in 30 minutes despite the Hawks taking less shots a game than Moses’ Rockets and a lot less of them being around the basket.

I just don’t think that’s an accurate way to judge their rebounding. One is a good rebounder or even great…but in a league that doesn’t play many real bigs. One is a goat tier guy in a league that played and focused on them. Andre Drummond got 10 rebounds a game in 22 minutes on the Nets. I don’t necessarily think that we need to compare him as a rebounder to Ewing and say he works him because at times Ewing got 10 in 40.

The numbers can’t be looked at the same in my eyes. League too different.

[FultzNationRISE]

Which has what to do with your reply to me talking about rebounding relative to era with Jokics rebounding in this era? He and all the top rebounders these days benefit from small ball letting them often be the only real bigs on the floor. How you take that into racial issues is weird.

Todays good rebounders get huge boards in low minutes which makes them comparable rebounders by numbers alone to the guys in question while not accounting for era related differences was the point. I don’t think I mentioned his defense at all in the post you replied to.

I just don’t think it’s by chance all these guys have historic rebounding numbers in less minutes than some of the best bigs ever. Moses Malone in his absolute prime as an mvp got 14 rebounds a game playing 42 minutes a night. Capela got 14 a game in 30 minutes despite the Hawks taking less shots a game than Moses’ Rockets and a lot less of them being around the basket.

I just don’t think that’s an accurate way to judge their rebounding. One is a good rebounder or even great…but in a league that doesn’t play many real bigs. One is a goat tier guy in a league that played and focused on them. Andre Drummond got 10 rebounds a game in 22 minutes on the Nets. I don’t necessarily think that we need to compare him as a rebounder to Ewing and say he works him because at times Ewing got 10 in 40.

The numbers can’t be looked at the same in my eyes. League too different.

You implied 14 boards a game is a number inflated by the era, I pointed out that hardly anyone else is putting it up in this same era. You listed less than a half dozen of the best rebounders in the last 10 years to suggest everyone is doing it.

But clearly everyone is not doing it.

[RogueBorg]

You implied 14 boards a game is a number inflated by the era, I pointed out that hardly anyone else is putting it up in this same era. You listed less than a half dozen of the best rebounders in the last 10 years to suggest everyone is doing it.

But clearly everyone is not doing it.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/MindlessOrnateKawala-max-1mb.gif

[Kblaze8855]

Nothing I said implied everyone was doing anything and you know it. You absolutely know that I know and was not saying the entire league averages 14 rebounds. I said the top rebounders of today have an obvious advantage relative to those players in question who played in a league full of true bigs trying to rebound as opposed to a few tall wings and shitty inside modern bigs. To back that I gave examples of many less than special bigs getting incredible rebound numbers often in relatively low minutes which should make the current advantage clear. And this came from me responding to this point:


I would like to see Jokic and Embiid try to get their numbers against Ewing with Oakley and Mason by his side.


I explain the changes and say the old guys rebounds would go up in this situation and you tell me I should tell everyone because the whole league doesn’t average 14 as if that has anything to do with what a David Robinson or Hakeem would do under these circumstances.

And for the record I think most of the league does in fact know which is why 7 of the top 11 rebound rate guys of the last 50 years are active players. KAT is ahead of GOAT tier rebounder Charles Barkley because KAT can go get 12+ a game in only 31-33 minutes despite being soft as Twinkie filling because he’s not in a league full of the kinda guys Barkley had to fight for them.

It is easier to stack rebounds vs 2(or 3) guards, 2 wings, and a tall wing playing center/no inside game jumping Jack than it is 2 guards, a rebounding tweener, a true power forward, and a true center which is one reason guys today can be less imposing inside yet stack huge totals.

An actual competent, old school tough, big bodied big like Jokic should get a lot of rebounds when coupled with his higher than normal minutes from superstar status.

Enes Kanter and Jonas both have higher career rebound rates than Moses Malone. Jokic better get 12-14 rebounds when he gets star minutes in this league that would probably have Detlef and a lot of 90s tweeners as centers if they came along now.

I watched a team play PJ Tucker at center. Hell the same team put Westbrook at center too. Real bigs should feast.

Whatever else he is Jokic is absolutely a “real” big. He’s one of the best players of all time and one of the best centers ever. And he’s in a league that is absolutely not setup to deal with him.

[Round Mound]

I don't think they would outplay Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson and Shaq. Against Zo, Dekembe, Smits etc i think they could.