3 for 6 while hand-picking the preseason favorite super-team for 6 years (11-16')

[3ba11]

Lebron's collusions lasted longer and won more chips than Durant's

Durant's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond

Ultimately, both guys gained a major advantage by colluding at unprecedented levels, so the media simply lies by shitting on Durant's rings while praising Lebron's

[coastalmarker99]

Outside of 2011, I would like to hear you explain the years that Lebron should have won titles in during that time period.


2015 was ruined by injuries.


And the 2014 Heat were an old team with basically zero depth that had a massively declining Wade while going up against a all-time team who they barely escaped the year prior

[SouBeachTalents]

Outside of 2011, I would like to hear you explain the years that Lebron should have won titles in during that time period.


2015 was ruined by injuries.


And the 2014 Heat were an old team with basically zero depth that had a massively declining Wade while going up against a all-time team who they barely escaped the year prior
LeBron's had 6 legitimate title contenders in his career

2011-13 Heat
2016-17 Cavs
2020 Lakers

Several of the seasons post 2010 were ruined by injury (2015, 2021 & 2022), and his 2018 & 2019 squads were not even close to title contenders. People might argue 2014, but Wade was a shell of himself and absolutely atrocious in the Finals, while a lot of the supporting cast was ancient.

So of the 6 years he had a championship caliber roster, he won 4 championships, of the other 2 seasons one was completely on him, and the other he ran into arguably the GOAT team.

[coastalmarker99]

LeBron's had 6 legitimate title contenders in his career

2011-13 Heat
2016-17 Cavs
2020 Lakers

Several of the seasons post 2010 were ruined by injury (2015, 2021 & 2022), and his 2018 & 2019 squads were not even close to title contenders. People might argue 2014, but Wade was a shell of himself and absolutely atrocious in the Finals, while a lot of the supporting cast was ancient.

So of the 6 years he had a championship caliber roster, he won 4 championships, of the other 2 seasons one was completely on him, and the other he ran into arguably the GOAT team.



Imagine how many rings Lebron would have by now.

If he was drafted to the Pistons or Memphis in 2003 instead of that Cavs team who wasted the first seven years of his career.

[3ba11]

.
Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat



Playoffs

14' Wade..... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Per 100 Possessions

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg


* In addition to higher PER, WS/48, efficiency and pace-adjusted scoring, Wade was also a "1b" equal-scoring partner to Lebron in the ECF, so Lebron didn't have to defeat maximum defensive attention (didn't have to carry scoring load)


CONCLUSION: People complain about 13-16' Wade because he'd fallen to prime Pippen level (21/5/5 and 21 PER)




LeBron's had 6 legitimate title contenders in his career

2011-13 Heat
2016-17 Cavs
2020 Lakers

Several of the seasons post 2010 were ruined by injury (2015, 2021 & 2022), and his 2018 & 2019 squads were not even close to title contenders. People might argue 2014, but Wade was a shell of himself and absolutely atrocious in the Finals, while a lot of the supporting cast was ancient.

So of the 6 years he had a championship caliber roster, he won 4 championships, of the other 2 seasons one was completely on him, and the other he ran into arguably the GOAT team.


:no:

The 2014 Heat were pursuing a historic 3-peat and the preseason favorite for the 4th straight year.

Wade was a "1b" equal-scoring partner to Lebron in the 14' ECF, so Lebron didn't have to defeat maximum defensive attention to win the conference (didn't have to carry scoring load).. Wade fell off in the Finals in part because the Spurs had perfected their exploitation of the Heat strategy (the weak fit between Lebron and Wade, as famously detailed by SB Nation (https://www.sbnation.com/2013/6/9/4444164/lebron-james-dwyane-wade-heat-spurs-nba-finals-game-6)).

Furthermore, Bosh's capacity to step up had been robbed because Lebron's skillset reduced him to spot-up role.. So there was no relief from an underperforming Wade in the Finals when there should've been in the form of Bosh, or Lebron simply going for for 41 ppg like 93' Jordan.

Ultimately, the 15' Heat missed the playoffs by 1/2 game because Wade was injured, but Wade rebuilt the Heat in 16' by nearly making the ECF just like the 94' Bulls - the difference was that Wade was a clutch assassin (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?506466-Actual-proof-that-16-Wade-gt-94-Pippen), while Pippen had the worst clutch literally of all-time (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/jbCxdB.gif).. Again, you guys complain about 13-16' Wade because he'd fallen to prime Pippen level (21 PER and 21/5/5).. So now you know why I complain about Pippen - he was like 13-16' Wade (worse infact).

Btw, Lakers were preseason favorites in 2021 but lost in 1st Round.. lol... Yet you guys make fun of rookie Jordan losing with 8 seeds.. It's easy to forget that weak brand of ball makes favored talent underachieve, so Lebron has the worst brand ever since his preseason favorites (favored talent) fell to underdog or loser in 11, 12', 14', 15', 16', 21', 22'.... he's the unquestioned king of weak brands that cause favored talent to underachieve.

[SouBeachTalents]

.
Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat



Playoffs

14' Wade..... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' Pippen... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 1.1 obpm


Per 100 Possessions

14' Wade..... 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg


* In addition to higher PER, WS/48, efficiency and pace-adjusted scoring, Wade was also a "1b" equal-scoring partner to Lebron in the ECF, so Lebron didn't have to defeat maximum defensive attention (didn't have to carry scoring load)


CONCLUSION: People complain about 13-16' Wade because he'd fallen to prime Pippen level (21/5/5 and 21 PER)






:no:

The 2014 Heat were pursuing a historic 3-peat and the preseason favorite for the 4th straight year.

Wade was a "1b" equal-scoring partner to Lebron in the 14' ECF, so Lebron didn't have to defeat maximum defensive attention to win the conference (didn't have to carry scoring load).. Wade fell off in the Finals in part because the Spurs had perfected their exploitation of the Heat strategy (the weak fit between Lebron and Wade, as famously detailed by SB Nation (https://www.sbnation.com/2013/6/9/4444164/lebron-james-dwyane-wade-heat-spurs-nba-finals-game-6)).

Furthermore, Bosh's capacity to step up had been robbed because Lebron's skillset reduced him to spot-up role.. So there was no relief from an underperforming Wade in the Finals when there should've been in the form of Bosh, or Lebron simply going for for 41 ppg like 93' Jordan.

Ultimately, the 15' Heat missed the playoffs by 1/2 game because Wade was injured, but Wade rebuilt the Heat in 16' by nearly making the ECF just like the 94' Bulls - the difference was that Wade was a clutch assassin (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?506466-Actual-proof-that-16-Wade-gt-94-Pippen), while Pippen had the worst clutch literally of all-time (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/jbCxdB.gif).. Again, you guys complain about 13-16' Wade because he'd fallen to prime Pippen level (21 PER and 21/5/5).. So now you know why I complain about Pippen - he was like 13-16' Wade (worse infact).

Btw, Lakers were preseason favorites in 2021 but lost in 1st Round.. lol... Yet you guys make fun of rookie Jordan losing with 8 seeds.. It's easy to forget that weak brand of ball makes favored talent underachieve, so Lebron has the worst brand ever since his preseason favorites (favored talent) fell to underdog or loser in 11, 12', 14', 15', 16', 21', 22'.... he's the unquestioned king of weak brands that cause favored talent to underachieve.
1-9

[3ba11]

1-9


Check out the team assist gap in the Finals - that tells the story of Lebron's low assist teams...

The low assist teams and weak brand is easy to trace.. Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance represents a 2nd player in the floor with a point guard hold-time - these 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than normal 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and struggles on the championship level (4/10).. carry on

Ultimately, this rudimentary "luka" skillset lacks the teammate development, fits, and brand of ball to win organically, and must therefore be a talent-based winner (team-hopper, all-star team strag)

[SouBeachTalents]

Check out the team assist gap in the Finals - that tells the story of Lebron's low assist teams...

The low assist teams and weak brand is easy to trace.. Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance represents a 2nd player in the floor with a point guard hold-time - these 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than normal 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and struggles on the championship level (4/10).. carry on

Ultimately, this rudimentary "luka" skillset lacks the teammate development, fits, and brand of ball to win organically, and must therefore be a talent-based winner (team-hopper, all-star team strag)
1-9

[coastalmarker99]

Nobody was saying in 1993 that Pippen should retire as they were doing for Wade in 2014.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IakSy1cO9ss&t=50s


Teams win titles not individual players as basketball is not tennis or golf.


Kareem and Wilt were two of the most dominant players of their era on both sides of the ball and yet both only won one ring in the 70's and 1960's



Jordan was also getting embarrassed in the playoffs before Pippen came around.

[coastalmarker99]

Swap Pippen for Jr Smith as you have said before.


And Jordan most likely finishes his career with one or two rings.


He loses to Magic in 1991 without Scottie's 20, 9, 7, 2, and 1.


He loses to New York in 1993.


He loses to the sonics in 1996.


He loses to the Jazz in 1997 and 1998.

[coastalmarker99]

Let's take a look at Lebron's ball dominance results from 2009 to 2020.

10 finals.

4 titles

two 66 win seasons

one 60 win season

11 conference finals,


Every team Lebron lost to during that period went on to make the finals or win a title.



The only reason why he didn't win even more during that period was that outside of 2011 his teams were just out matched.


The fact that you expect Lebron with a bad back to beat a 67-win team with role players around him.

Or beat the most stacked team of All-time in 2017 speaks volumes about how great you truly think he is.

[3ba11]

.
The Heat were injured in 15' but nearly made 16' ECF just like 94' Bulls:


Playoffs

16' WADE...... 22.3 PER.. 4.9 bpm.. 0.148 ws/48.. 0.8 vorp.. 22/6/4 on 47%
94' PIPPEN.... 22.8 PER.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.149 ws/48.. 0.7 vorp.. 23/8/6 on 43%


^^™ the difference is that Wade was building the Heat like a real 1st option does (lottery to 2nd Round), while Pippen drove the Bulls downward and was borderline lottery in 95' before MJ returned to restore 3-peat caliber



Clutch Points (last 5 within 5) for 2016 2nd Round:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-01-2022/-5mtpL.gif

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=2&PerMode=TotalsMode=Totals



Clutch Points for 1994 2nd Round:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/jbCxdB.gif


Pippen also amazingly had zero clutch points for the entire 98' 2nd Round (here (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=2&PerMode=Totals))





Nobody was saying in 1993 that Pippen should retire as they were doing for Wade in 2014.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IakSy1cO9ss&t=50s


Teams win titles not individual players as basketball is not tennis or golf.


Kareem and Wilt were two of the most dominant players of their era on both sides of the ball and yet both only won one ring in the 70's and 1960's



Jordan was also getting embarrassed in the playoffs before Pippen came around.


https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg



^^^ Pippen shot worse than anyone has ever shot while winning a tltle... :confusedshrug:

And notice that Pippen is the only 2nd option on the list (everyone else is a 3rd option or role player), so only MJ won with large volumes of woat efficiency from a teammate.

Finally, Pippen averaged 15.7 on 34% in the 96' Finals and could barely walk in the 98' Finals, so he was actually banged up and not just having an off-series like Wade.. Wade was a 1b equal-scoring partner in the ECF, while 16' Wade nearly made the ECF and outplayed 94' Pippen.

[1987_Lakers]

Never forget OP said Bron = MJ back in 2013.

[coastalmarker99]

You never point out that Pippen despite his low FG% was the favourite to take out the 1998 finals MVP before his back injury.

https://www.deseret.com/1998/6/11/19385041/what-about-pippen-for-nba-finals-mvp


Pippen even impressed Jerry Sloan so much that he praised him after the game.

"He was sensational," said the Jazz's coach.

[1987_Lakers]

You never point out that Pippen despite his low FG% was the favourite to take out the 1998 finals MVP before his back injury.

https://www.deseret.com/1998/6/11/19385041/what-about-pippen-for-nba-finals-mvp

"Defensively, he puts tremendous pressure on you. . . . He caused us a lot of problems, I think everybody is aware of that. We're aware of it," Sloan said. "We have trouble with him every time we play. And I don't know what more you can say. You can put him on any player on the floor, and he's going to do a terrific job defensively."

Why does 3ball always ignore Pippen's defense? lol

[coastalmarker99]

"Defensively, he puts tremendous pressure on you. . . . He caused us a lot of problems, I think everybody is aware of that. We're aware of it," Sloan said. "We have trouble with him every time we play. And I don't know what more you can say. You can put him on any player on the floor, and he's going to do a terrific job defensively."

Why does 3ball always ignore Pippen's defense? lol


Because that does not fit his agenda of saying that Jordan won 6 rings by his lonesome.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEWMVAli8cQ



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImRvytke08c


Even when Pippen was clearly past his prime and in a lot of physical pain he was still the Bulls most important defensive player.

[3ba11]

Because that does not fit his agenda of saying that Jordan won 6 rings by his lonesome.


Show me a player in history that won multiple titles without an elite-scoring sidekick... Only Kobe (2) and MJ (6) .. Maybe Duncan

That's what everyone in history needs - juggernaut scoring help..... EXCEPT JORDAN... ONLY JORDAN could win every title by himself with a bunch of cheap defenders and zero go-to teammates (carrying scoring load)

[coastalmarker99]

Show me a player in history that won multiple titles without an elite-scoring sidekick

That's what everyone in history needs - juggernaut scoring help..... EXCEPT JORDAN... ONLY JORDAN could win every title by himself with a bunch of cheap defenders and zero go-to teammates (carrying scoring load)


There are plenty of players that could have won multiple titles with Jordan's teams against the weak competition he faced.

Magic

Kareem

Lebron

Wilt

Shaq

Hakeem

[1987_Lakers]

Show me a player in history that won multiple titles without an elite-scoring sidekick

That's what everyone in history needs - juggernaut scoring help..... EXCEPT JORDAN... ONLY JORDAN could win every title by himself with a bunch of cheap defenders and zero go-to teammates (carrying scoring load)

Bird

'81 postseason his 2nd option was Maxwell who averaged 16.1 ppg
'84 postseason his 2nd option was DJ who averaged 16.6 ppg

Not exactly elite 2nd options, not to mention none of them had Pippen's defensive impact.

[3ba11]

Bird

'81 postseason his 2nd option was Maxwell who averaged 16.1 ppg
'84 postseason his 2nd option was DJ who averaged 16.6 ppg

Not exactly elite 2nd options, not to mention none of them had Pippen's defensive impact.


Those teams didn't require carrying the scoring load

The Bulls required Jordan to carry the scoring load - only Jordan had to carry the scoring load (defeat maximum defensive attention) for more than 2 titles, let alone 6...

[coastalmarker99]

Shaq carried the biggest scoring load in finals history,


As he almost averaged 40 and 20 while his sidekick averaged a terrible 15 PPG on a horrible field goal percentage.

[3ba11]

Shaq carried the biggest scoring load in finals history,


As he almost averaged 40 and 20 while his sidekick averaged a terrible 15 PPG on a horrible field goal percentage.


Shaq won 1 chip that way (carrying scoring load, aka defeating max defensive attention)

Jordan won 6 - no one else won more than 2

[1987_Lakers]

Those teams didn't require carrying the scoring load


If it helps you sleep at night. We all know you said peak Bron = peak Jordan

[SouBeachTalents]

There are plenty of players that could have won multiple titles with Jordan's teams against the weak competition he faced.

Magic

Kareem

Lebron

Wilt

Shaq

Hakeem
It's been pointed out to him literally dozens of times, so it's obvious he will just continue to avoid the subject, but Pippen outscored the opponents 2nd option in 19 of the Bulls 24 series during their title years. So he can drone on and on and on about scoring, but Pippen was the superior 2nd option just based on scoring in the vast majority of Chicago's series, and that isn't even taking into account his GOAT level defense and all around play.

[3ba11]

It's been pointed out to him literally dozens of times, so it's obvious he will just continue to avoid the subject, but Pippen outscored the opponents 2nd option in 19 of the Bulls 24 series during their title years. So he can drone on and on and on about scoring, but Pippen was the superior 2nd option just based on scoring in the vast majority of Chicago's series, and that isn't even taking into account his GOAT level defense and all around play.


Every above-average sidekick will outscore opposing 2nd options the majority of the time, but they don't need a dynasty system like Pippen, or worst-ever efficiency and clutch.

Pippen was literally Jeff Green outside the dynasty system - he never outscored anyone outside of a system that set everything up for him, or Jordan taking all the defensive attention away from him - this is the historical record (https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2022/7D0vE4.gif)

You claim that he outscored guys but it was never by more than 1 or 2 points with worst-ever efficiency and clutch.. So the issue is that Pippen had low peak capability and couldn't dominate anyone (wasn't on scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif)), which forced MJ to face maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).. That's why Pippen's low peak capability, worst-ever efficiency and clutch MATTERS.

Kukoc was a better option than Pippen in the 2nd half of playoff games - only MJ had a sidekick that couldn't outplay Kukoc in the clutch.

[Axe]

Yikes, op here getting bodybagged once again.

[Overdrive]

Every above-average sidekick will outscore opposing 2nd options the majority of the time, but they don't need a dynasty system like Pippen, or worst-ever efficiency and clutch.

Pippen was literally Jeff Green outside the dynasty system - he never outscored anyone outside of a system that set everything up for him, or Jordan taking all the defensive attention away from him - this is the historical record (https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2022/7D0vE4.gif)

You claim that he outscored guys but it was never by more than 1 or 2 points with worst-ever efficiency and clutch.. So the issue is that Pippen had low peak capability and couldn't dominate anyone (wasn't on scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif)), which forced MJ to face maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).. That's why Pippen's low peak capability, worst-ever efficiency and clutch MATTERS.

Kukoc was a better option than Pippen in the 2nd half of playoff games - only MJ had a sidekick that couldn't outplay Kukoc in the clutch.

What did Jordan accomplish outside that system? If Pippen was Jeff Green without it Jordan was Jerry Stackhouse. Why can't you just admit that Pippen was great? It doesn't take away anything from Jordan.

[3ba11]

What did Jordan accomplish outside that system? If Pippen was Jeff Green without it Jordan was Jerry Stackhouse. Why can't you just admit that Pippen was great? It doesn't take away anything from Jordan.


because there's no evidence - all the evidence shows that he sucked.. show me where he dominated

You're literally trying to get me to admit to something that there's no evidence for

(which means that you're a lapdog that is willing to blindly repeat things you hear on TV despite no evidence)

Again, it's a historical FACT that Pippen was Jeff Green outside the triangle - that's a fact.

Otoh, Jordan was literally better than Hakeem and Giannis outside the triangle - 35/6/6 and DPOY (Hakeem is next-best with 27 and DPOY).. And Jordan was nearly carrying a nothing-cast to the 89' Finals over the Bad Boys

[Axe]

What did Jordan accomplish outside that system? If Pippen was Jeff Green without it Jordan was Jerry Stackhouse. Why can't you just admit that Pippen was great? It doesn't take away anything from Jordan.
Op is braindead lol

[3ba11]

Op is braindead lol


When did Pippen dominate like every other top 30 player?

He never even came close to having a dominant series and obviously wasn't capable of that

The historical record shows that he played at an Iggy or Wiggins-caliber but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status

That's literally the historical record!!!!

You guys are just lapdogs that can't think for yourself or look at a set of facts and determine the truth.. So I honestly feel sorry for you guys that you can't discern truth and must accept bullshit that Pippen was a great player

The historical record shows that he was literally Jeff Green outside the triangle, and Iggy within it

Regarding Jordan and Jerry Stackhouse - Jordan was far better than Hakeem and Giannis outside the triangle - the best-scoring dpoy was Hakeem at 27 ppg, while MJ got 35/6/6 and nearly carried a nothing cast to the Finals over the Bad Boys

[TheCorporation]

Never forget OP said Bron = MJ back in 2013.

He knew early on LBJ > MJ

Now he's scared to admit it.

[kawhileonard2]

Outside of 2011, I would like to hear you explain the years that Lebron should have won titles in during that time period.


2015 was ruined by injuries.


And the 2014 Heat were an old team with basically zero depth that had a massively declining Wade while going up against a all-time team who they barely escaped the year prior

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_preseason_odds.html (Dallas 7th)



https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_preseason_odds.html (San Antonio 6th)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_preseason_odds.html (Golden State 8th)

2012, 2013, 2016 was 1st