is lebron a GREAT scorer?

[3ba11]

1) Lebron scored the most points without producing the best teams of his era, which demonstrates that his scoring style is suboptimal and doesn't yield the best team ceilings like Curry, Kawhi or MJ - these expert jumpshooters were coachable to play the best brand of ball and achieve the highest team ceilings, while Lebron forces coaches into a heliocentric offense that revolves around 1 player and requires more help (lower team ceilings/Finals records).

2) Heliocentric scoring imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, so it lacks the teammate development, fits and brand of ball to win organically and must pursue talent-based winning instead (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy).

3) At carry-job scoring levels, heliocentric players lack sufficient brand of ball to beat top teams (too ball-dominant) - this inability to carry the scoring load requires all-time scoring help like Kareem, AD, or Wade and can't win with secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen.. GM's must find expensive, star scoring help for heliocentric players, while expert jumpshooters like Curry or MJ that can carry the scoring load allow GM's to build a team of cheap defenders .

4) Great scorers require a jumper that routinely pops off, which forces opponents to consider double-teaming to get the ball out of their hands (commanding doubles).. aka great scorers must have their scoring be devastating enough to make opponents willing to compromise their defense by double-teaming (gambling).

5) Turnovers - great scoring requires low turnovers and Lebron is #1 all-time in turnovers - he's a 6'8" Westbrook turnover machine with similar non-elite jumpshooting efficiency.. He was on his way to becoming just another career-losing ball-dominator like CP3 or Luka until the "decision" to stack the deck.

[8Ball]

LeBron is the Greatest scorer.

About to surpass Kareem as the all time leading scorer of all time, and that is Kareem's career magnus opus. Kareem has won 6 championships and 6 MVPs and nobody talks about those achievements.

[TheGoatest]

https://images4.imagebam.com/c7/e8/8e/MEE4DNN_o.png

Does Elon Musk have A LOT of money?

https://www.thesouthafrican.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Rich-list-28-Sept.jpg

[8Ball]

https://images4.imagebam.com/c7/e8/8e/MEE4DNN_o.png

Does Elon Musk have A LOT of money?

https://www.thesouthafrican.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Rich-list-28-Sept.jpg

Oh shit.


Rat poison response.

[ShawkFactory]

Yes

[3ba11]

LeBron is the Greatest scorer.

About to surpass Kareem as the all time leading scorer of all time, and that is Kareem's career magnus opus. Kareem has won 6 championships and 6 MVPs and nobody talks about those achievements.


Scoring less for longer doesn't really mean anything or reflect scoring ability.

Reggie Miller scored 3000 more points than Bird but no one thinks Miller was a better scorer than Bird or anywhere near

and the WAY a player scores matter the same as how MUCH they score..

Specifically, ball-dominators can't carry the scoring load against top teams (too ball-dominant) and therefore need all-time scoring help.. They also can't win organically because they lack the fits/chemistry and teammate development (they impose spot-up roles that stall young players), nor can they achieve the highest team ceilngs (weak Finals records), command doubles or limit turnovers (westbrooking)

So no

[Wally450]

Yes

[8Ball]

Scoring less for longer doesn't really mean anything or reflect scoring ability.

Reggie Miller scored 3000 more points than Bird but no one thinks Miller was a better scorer than Bird or anywhere near

and the WAY a player scores matter the same as how MUCH they score..

Specifically, ball-dominators can't carry the scoring load against top teams (too ball-dominant) and therefore need all-time scoring help.. They also can't win organically because they lack the fits/chemistry and teammate development (they impose spot-up roles that stall young players), nor can they achieve the highest team ceilngs (weak Finals records), command doubles or limit turnovers (westbrooking)

So no

Kareem has 6 MVPs, nobody cares.
Kareem has 6 championships, nobody cares.

Kareem's all time scoring record = Most sought after record.

[RRR3]

No the guy who has the 5th highest scoring average in the history of the NBA, along with 3 seasons of 30 or more PPG and a scoring title, is a terrible scorer. Obviously.

[3ba11]

Kareem has 6 MVPs, nobody cares.
Kareem has 6 championships, nobody cares.

Kareem's all time scoring record = Most sought after record.


Kareem...... 6 rings.... #1 scoring..... #3 rebounds
Lebron....... 4 rings.... #1 scoring..... #6 assists


^^^ so we know that Lebron isn't goat because Kareem's superior achievement wasn't goat

logic gonna logic

[3ba11]

No the guy who has the 5th highest scoring average in the history of the NBA, along with 3 seasons of 30 or more PPG and a scoring title, is a terrible scorer. Obviously.


the WAY a player scores matter the same as how MUCH they score..

Specifically, ball-dominators can't carry the scoring load against top teams (too ball-dominant) and therefore need all-time scoring help - they literally need more help like kareem, AD or Wade and can't win with secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen that require the 1st option to carry the scoring load.

GM's must find expensive, star scoring help for ball-dominators, while expert jumpshooters like Curry or MJ (that can carry the scoring load) allow GM's to build a team of cheap defenders .

furthermore, ball-dominators can't win organically because they lack the fits and teammate development (they impose spot-up roles that stall young players), nor can they achieve the highest team ceilngs (weak Finals records due to weak brand).. nor can they command doubles or limit turnovers (westbrooking)

[SouBeachTalents]

He ight.

[2ball]

No. LeBron is the only player in the top 20 (yeah I atleast put him in the top 20) to possess an unwillingness to take contested jumpers. Imo to be a great scorer you have to take contested jumpers and hit them at a reasonable rate.

[bison]

Depends on what you value in a basketball player. Lebron is all about quantity, not quality.

[Full Court]

Kareem has 6 MVPs, nobody cares.
Kareem has 6 championships, nobody cares.

Kareem's all time scoring record = Most sought after record.

Except that Kareem is ahead of Lebron all time and still will be even after Bronie passes up his longevity record. :lol

Kareem = top 5
Bronie = fringe top 10

[Full Court]

Calling Lebron the greatest scorer of all time is just silliness. Nobody takes that kind of hyperbole seriously.

However, he has averaged something like 27ppg for his career, so he's clearly a great scorer.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Yes

[Overdrive]

The point of the game is to put the ball into the basket more often than your opponent. How Lebron does it doesn't matter he puts it into the basket at a higher rate than almost anyone in the league ever.

I don't like his style of play, but that doesn't matter. He's undeniably one of the greatest scorers ever.

[RRR3]

The point of the game is to put the ball into the basket more often than your opponent. How Lebron does it doesn't matter he puts it into the basket at a higher rate than almost anyone in the league ever.

I don't like his style of play, but that doesn't matter. He's undeniably one of the greatest scorers ever.

89 Pippen

[Overdrive]

89 Pippen

What about '89 Pippen?

[RRR3]

What about '89 Pippen?
3ball always talks about him lol

[Spurs m8]

Makes sense...in his 19 seasons or whatever, has he actually ever had a young side kick that developed next to him?

No...partly because he either trades them away at the start...or he diminishes their growth.

[1987_Lakers]

What kind of retarded thread is this? You are seriously asking if a player who is 5th all-time in PPG on great efficiency is a great scorer?

This is who Bron haters label as the smartest guy on ISH? LOL. If that's the guy you look up to, it just shows most Bron haters here are really low IQ.

[SouBeachTalents]

What kind of retarded thread is this? You are seriously asking if a player who is 5th all-time in PPG on great efficiency is a great scorer?

This is who Bron haters label as the smartest guy on ISH? LOL. If that's the guy you look up to, it just shows most Bron haters here are really low IQ.
And he has once again backed himself into a corner where LeBron, who’s not a great scorer according to him, averages more ppg than literally everybody in his top 10 besides Jordan :lol Which means for the guy who’s entire arguments boil down to ppg and scoring, 9 of the players in his top 10 are not great scorers according to him.

[TheMan]

Bronie logic...

Karl Malone has more career points than MJ so obviously he's the better scorer.

:facepalm

[3ba11]

And he has once again backed himself into a corner where LeBron, who’s not a great scorer according to him, averages more ppg than literally everybody in his top 10 besides Jordan :lol Which means for the guy who’s entire arguments boil down to ppg and scoring, 9 of the players in his top 10 are not great scorers according to him.


Ball-dominators like Lebron can't win while carrying the scoring load against top teams (too ball-dominant) and therefore need all-time scoring help

It's literally a shit brand of ball that needs a ton of scoring help (needs goat help) yet STILL has a lottery record on the championship level

Unlike expert jumpshooters (Curry, MJ), ball-dominators like Lebron lack the efficiency, brand of ball and elite jumpshooting skill to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) - the inability of ball-dominators to successfully carry the scoring load against top teams requires goat scoring help like Kareem or Wade and cannot win with secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen.

Ultimately, GM's love to build teams with cheap defenders but this requires a 1st option that can carry the scoring load like Curry or MJ, whereas Lebron forces GM's to find expensive scoring help to support his inferior brand of ball.

[TheMan]

Calling Lebron the greatest scorer of all time is just silliness. Nobody takes that kind of hyperbole seriously.

However, he has averaged something like 27ppg for his career, so he's clearly a great scorer.

Yep

[3ba11]

Calling Lebron the greatest scorer of all time is just silliness. Nobody takes that kind of hyperbole seriously.

However, he has averaged something like 27ppg for his career, so he's clearly a great scorer.


If a player needs to be the biggest ball-dominator EVER.... and the biggest turnover machine EVER.... and yield an inferior brand of ball that 1) has a lottery record on the championship level REGARDLESS OF CAST and 2) turns favored talent (preseason favorite) into underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16')

than who gives a shit about his scoring.. :confusedshrug:.

Lebron was just another 1-trick pony like Iverson or Dwight and just another losing ball-dominator like CP3 or Luka until the "decision" to manufacture a resume

He was just like those guys until he decided to consolidate power in the conference by teaming up with the top 2 first options in the conference

He literally hand-picked the preseason favorite for 6 straight years (11-16') but then complained about "comp" after his favored teams fell to Finals underdog or loser all 6 years (weak brand of ball).. However, the "comp" argument doesn't work for the preseason favorite, since that rewards underachieving the expectation.. Lebron had the preseason favorite in 2016, so he should've been flirting with 70 wins like expert jumpershooters Curry & Kawhi (better brands of ball = higher team ceiling).

[StrongLurk]

OP is the Lebron James of ISH.

[PP34Deuce]

I look at Lebron like Perimeter Shaq. Both guys mastered scoring consistently 6-8 points a quarter and had their fair share of 15-24 point quarters.

Lebron is a great scorer. Averaged 20PPG in a slower paced league as a rookie and adjusted as the league sped up. A guy who has averaged 27 consistenty and has been averaged 30+ in his 20's and also 30's can't deny his ability to score the ball.

He's a not a greater scorer than Kobe, MJ, or KD.

[nek1477]

Yes.

[Round Mound]

Yes. He is not a pretty scorer but he is effective.

[Axe]

Imagine being a good scorer while not being a ballhog at the same time, unlike op's true hero. That's king kong for you.

[HoopsNY]

One of the best to ever do it.

[Bawkish]

Does the bear sh*t in the woods?

Is the Pope catholic?

Is Goateets the village idiot?

[RogueBorg]

No, he's a really good scorer who happens to have the greatest longevity. There's literally been a better scorer 18 of the 19 years he's played.

[ShawkFactory]

No, he's a really good scorer who happens to have the greatest longevity. There's literally been a better scorer 18 of the 19 years he's played.

So you have to be the BEST scorer to be a GREAT scorer?

[RRR3]

No, he's a really good scorer who happens to have the greatest longevity. There's literally been a better scorer 18 of the 19 years he's played.
How is someone who’s been the best scorer in the league statistically even if only once not a great scorer? That makes zero sense. Are you retarded?

[RogueBorg]

So you have to be the BEST scorer to be a GREAT scorer?

He has 2 moves, the three (which he's not very good at for how important it is to todays game) and the stiff-arm drive to the basket. He cannot dribble and pull up to hit the jumper like KD can. He doesn't have the post up game up MJ or Kobe, and has almost no mid-range game to speak of.

[RogueBorg]

How is someone who’s been the best scorer in the league statistically even if only once not a great scorer? That makes zero sense. Are you retarded?

He's not good shooting threes and has one move and that's going to the basket. He is not a great scorer.

A great scorer should have more than 1 scoring title.

[RRR3]

He has 2 moves, the three (which he's not very good at for how important it is to todays game) and the stiff-arm drive to the basket. He cannot dribble and pull up to hit the jumper like KD can. He doesn't have the post up game up MJ or Kobe, and has almost no mid-range game to speak of.
LeBron is one of the best post players in the league, you being mad about it doesn’t change that. https://theathletic.com/3131846/2022/02/21/lebron-james-joel-embiid-and-the-nbas-best-post-scorers-plus-3-others-who-surprisingly-struggle-down-low/?amp=1

Also Giannis has significantly less skill than LeBron and he scores at will. By your retarded logic he’s not a great scorer either

[ShawkFactory]

He has 2 moves, the three (which he's not very good at for how important it is to todays game) and the stiff-arm drive to the basket. He cannot dribble and pull up to hit the jumper like KD can. He doesn't have the post up game up MJ or Kobe, and has almost no mid-range game to speak of.

Are you talking about right now or his whole career?

[RogueBorg]

Lebron has 1 scoring title, I'm actually laughing not mad.

[RRR3]

Lebron has 1 scoring title, I'm actually laughing not mad.
Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett, Julius Erving, Jerry West, Dirk Nowitzki, Charles Barkley, Elgin Baylor, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, Dwyane Wade , David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, Dominique Wilkins, and Vince Carter all won 1 scoring title at most. Many of them won zero. Are you seriously going to tell me none of them were great scorers?

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron has 1 scoring title, I'm actually laughing not mad.

There have been I think 33 guys who have ever picked up a basketball that have won an NBA scoring title.

[RogueBorg]

Lebron only has 1 scoring title?

https://c.tenor.com/S2G-QZk-Vz0AAAAM/michael-jordan-laughing.gif

[RRR3]

There have been I think 33 guys who have ever picked up a basketball that have won an NBA scoring title.
Only 18 of them were any good at scoring though since 15 of them were so horrible they couldn’t win more than once. Let’s not even get into scrub scorers like Larry Bird, Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley and Dirk Nowitzki who never won a scoring title at all.

[RRR3]

RogueBorg has no response but to troll because he realizes how stupid what he said was.

[RogueBorg]

Steph has twice as many scoring titles as Lebron

https://c.tenor.com/ogwG9rsPa74AAAAC/you-mad-mad.gif

[RogueBorg]

RogueBorg has no response but to troll

A dim light gets brighter

[RRR3]

Dirk wasn’t a great scorer-RogueIdiot

[RRR3]

A dim light gets brighter
So you admit you have nothing to add to serious discussions about basketball? Interesting.

[1987_Lakers]

RogueBorg getting exposed. Lol

[RogueBorg]

RogueBorg getting exposed. Lol

Hardly, I'm laughing at you triggered idiots

[1987_Lakers]

Hardly, I'm laughing at you triggered idiots

I'm laughing at you for not saying anything insightful.

[RogueBorg]

I'm laughing at you for not saying anything insightful.

Too easy

[RRR3]

RogueBorg getting exposed. Lol
He pulled the classic idiot move of “I was just trolling bro” after getting exposed for being low IQ

[ShawkFactory]

Steph has twice as many scoring titles as Lebron

https://c.tenor.com/ogwG9rsPa74AAAAC/you-mad-mad.gif

You trying so hard at this is hysterical :lol

You want it SO BAD it just oozes out of you.

[RogueBorg]

He pulled the classic idiot move of “I was just trolling bro” after getting exposed for being low IQ

Just answer the question, why does Lebron only have 1 scoring title?

[SouBeachTalents]

Today I learned Bird, Hakeem, Dirk, Barkley & Giannis were not great scorers :applause:

[RRR3]

Just answer the question, why does Lebron only have 1 scoring title?
Because he doesn’t try to win scoring titles. He’s literally missed out on 2 scoring titles (2010 and last year) by sitting out when he could have gone for it at the end of the season.

[red1]

he aight.

[TheMan]

Because he doesn’t try to win scoring titles. He’s literally missed out on 2 scoring titles (2010 and last year) by sitting out when he could have gone for it at the end of the season.

So you're also saying he's a quitter? :lol

But seriously, he's a great scorer, just not the greatest, that belongs to MJ, and pretty comfortably too.

[RRR3]

So you're also saying he's a quitter? :lol

But seriously, he's a great scorer, just not the greatest, that belongs to MJ, and pretty comfortably too.
If he went for it you’d scream stat padding :rolleyes:

[TheCorporation]

https://images4.imagebam.com/c7/e8/8e/MEE4DNN_o.png

Does Elon Musk have A LOT of money?

https://www.thesouthafrican.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Rich-list-28-Sept.jpg

Ouch :lol Hittem with that 1st post rat poison post.

R.I.P. to OP.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


A player can't be a great scorer if they needed great scoring help..... for the vast majority of their titles as 1st option... :confusedshrug:

So guys like Shaq, Lebron, Magic and others weren't really great scorers despite their physical dominance or oversized for their position.. At carry-job volumes, their plodding ball-dominance lacked sufficient brand of ball to beat top teams (can't carry the scoring load and beat top teams), so they needed all-time scoring help like Kareem, Kobe and Wade.

Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry, MJ or Kobe can carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat top teams (they can carry the scoring load and beat top teams) and therefore win with secondary-producing sidekicks like Wiggins or Pippen.

[1987_Lakers]

.
Thread Cliffs


A player can't be a great scorer if they needed great scoring help..... for the vast majority of their titles as 1st option... :confusedshrug:

So guys like Shaq, Lebron, Magic and others weren't really great scorers despite their physical dominance or oversized for their position.. At carry-job volumes, their plodding ball-dominance lacked sufficient brand of ball to beat top teams (can't carry the scoring load and beat top teams), so they needed all-time scoring help like Kareem, Kobe and Wade.

Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry, MJ or Kobe can carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat top teams (they can carry the scoring load and beat top teams) and therefore win with secondary-producing sidekicks like Wiggins or Pippen.

Thread cliffs.

According to OP's logic, Durant isn't a great scorer. Despite 3bal sucking him off for years until he lost to Giannis in 2021.

[3ba11]

Thread cliffs.

According to OP's logic, Durant isn't a great scorer. Despite 3bal sucking him off for years until he lost to Giannis in 2021.


Durant needs equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention and therefore isn't a truly great scorer that defeated maximum defensive attention like MJ, Kobe, Curry or Bird (carried scoring load for playoffs and Finals of title run).

So there's levels to this shit.. MJ, Kobe, Curry, and Bird are truly great scorers, while Durant and Iverson are great scorers, and Lebron isn't a great scorer (no pure scoring ability or elite jumpshooting skill.. no go-to moves.. weak clutch... doesn't command doubles)

[ShawkFactory]

Durant needs equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention and therefore isn't a truly great scorer that defeated maximum defensive attention like MJ, Kobe, Curry or Bird (carried scoring load for playoffs and Finals of title run).

So there's levels to this shit.. MJ, Kobe, Curry, and Bird are truly great scorers, while Durant and Iverson are great scorers, and Lebron isn't a great scorer (no pure scoring ability or elite jumpshooting skill.. no go-to moves.. weak clutch... doesn't command doubles)

If you choose to create them :lol

[Overdrive]

Durant needs equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention and therefore isn't a truly great scorer that defeated maximum defensive attention like MJ, Kobe, Curry or Bird (carried scoring load for playoffs and Finals of title run).

So there's levels to this shit.. MJ, Kobe, Curry, and Bird are truly great scorers, while Durant and Iverson are great scorers, and Lebron isn't a great scorer (no pure scoring ability or elite jumpshooting skill.. no go-to moves.. weak clutch... doesn't command doubles)


.
Thread Cliffs


A player can't be a great scorer if they needed great scoring help..... for the vast majority of their titles as 1st option... :confusedshrug:

So guys like Shaq, Lebron, Magic and others weren't really great scorers despite their physical dominance or oversized for their position.. At carry-job volumes, their plodding ball-dominance lacked sufficient brand of ball to beat top teams (can't carry the scoring load and beat top teams), so they needed all-time scoring help like Kareem, Kobe and Wade.

Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry, MJ or Kobe can carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat top teams (they can carry the scoring load and beat top teams) and therefore win with secondary-producing sidekicks like Wiggins or Pippen.

Defensive attention is your reasoning for truely great scorers, but Shaq who had 30ppg series against triple teams in the west isn't a great scorer. What else has Shaq faced than maximum defensive attention as you'd call it?

That's the most retarded stance I've ever read from you and that says quite alot.

[SouBeachTalents]

Defensive attention is your reasoning for truely great scorers, but Shaq who had 30ppg series against triple teams in the west isn't a great scorer. What else has Shaq faced than maximum defensive attention as you'd call it?

That's the most retarded stance I've ever read from you and that says quite alot.
But Shaq can't shoot jumpers! Though neither can Giannis and he's in OP's top 10 :lol

[3ba11]

But Shaq can't shoot jumpers! Though neither can Giannis and he's in OP's top 10 :lol


Since Shaq needed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, he never defeated maximum defensive attention except once in his entire career (2000 Finals)..

So he isn't a truly great scorer and just had a one-off - and he actually didn't carry the scoring load against the Blazers (the "real" Finals), while Kobe led the NBA in clutch scoring for those playoffs, including his record-setting Finals (8.0 ppg clutch points)

[1987_Lakers]

Since Shaq needed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, he never defeated maximum defensive attention except once in his entire career (2000 Finals)..

So he isn't a truly great scorer and just had a one-off - and he actually didn't carry the scoring load against the Blazers (the "real" Finals), while Kobe led the NBA in clutch scoring for those playoffs, including his record-setting Finals (8.0 ppg clutch points)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5PDgv5y-S0

[RRR3]

Referring to a finals series in which Kobe put up 15.6 PPG on 41.6 TS% as “record setting” :roll:

[ShawkFactory]

The great flaw in this (even though I know you aren't attempting to make a real argument) is that we are faulting someone as a scorer because they have a great teammate.

Like..how does Kobe being a great scorer mean that Shaq isn't? Just cause they were on the same team? That doesn't make any sense.

[3ba11]

The great flaw in this (even though I know you aren't attempting to make a real argument) is that we are faulting someone as a scorer because they have a great teammate.

Like..how does Kobe being a great scorer mean that Shaq isn't? Just cause they were on the same team? That doesn't make any sense.


Players that can carry the scoring load need less help... it isn't complicated but you're pretending it is.

Players that can carry the scoring load allow GM's to build a team of cheap defenders instead of needing to find expensive, star scoring help.

When Lebron had secondary scorers at sidekick like Ingram, Jamison, Mo or Hughes - he got destroyed - it wasn't nearly enough help because it required Lebron to carry the scoring load, and he's too ball-dominant to carry the scoring load over top teams.

At carry-job volumes, plodding ball-dominators like Lebron, Shaq or Magic lack sufficient brand of ball to beat top teams, so they needed all-time scoring help like Kareem, Kobe and Wade.

Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry, MJ or Kobe can carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat top teams and therefore win with secondary-producers like Wiggins or Pippen.

[AirBonner]

Thread Cliffs: is LeBron is good shooter? Is water wet?

[3ba11]

Thread Cliffs: is LeBron is good shooter? Is water wet?


He literally avoids contested jumpers and cannot make them

So even his efficiency is manufactured by a high proportion of dribble-heavy rim attacks that yield inferior brand of ball and chemistry (inferior teams) than expert jumpshooting, which fosters better chemistry and brand of ball, aka ball movement..

Ultimately, since Lebron can't beat top teams by carrying the scoring load (too ball-dominant), he needs more scoring help - his weak brand of ball needs more help..

[ShawkFactory]

Players that can carry the scoring load need less help... it isn't complicated but you're pretending it is.

Players that can carry the scoring load allow GM's to build a team of cheap defenders instead of needing to find expensive, star scoring help.

When Lebron had secondary scorers at sidekick like Ingram, Jamison, Mo or Hughes - he got destroyed - it wasn't nearly enough help because it required Lebron to carry the scoring load, and he's too ball-dominant to carry the scoring load over top teams.

At carry-job volumes, plodding ball-dominators like Lebron, Shaq or Magic lack sufficient brand of ball to beat top teams, so they needed all-time scoring help like Kareem, Kobe and Wade.

Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry, MJ or Kobe can carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat top teams and therefore win with secondary-producers like Wiggins or Pippen.

My point, which of course you missed or purposely ignored, is about the difference between someone being in the situation to do something and another not being in that situation but being able to do it if they were.

Shaq carried that load you discuss in 2000, proving he could do it. Did Kobe getting way better the next year then mean that Shaq just couldn’t do it anymore?

Did Parker getting little better at scoring make Duncan worse at it?

[Overdrive]

Players that can carry the scoring load need less help... it isn't complicated but you're pretending it is.

Players that can carry the scoring load allow GM's to build a team of cheap defenders instead of needing to find expensive, star scoring help.

When Lebron had secondary scorers at sidekick like Ingram, Jamison, Mo or Hughes - he got destroyed - it wasn't nearly enough help because it required Lebron to carry the scoring load, and he's too ball-dominant to carry the scoring load over top teams.

At carry-job volumes, plodding ball-dominators like Lebron, Shaq or Magic lack sufficient brand of ball to beat top teams, so they needed all-time scoring help like Kareem, Kobe and Wade.

Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry, MJ or Kobe can carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat top teams and therefore win with secondary-producers like Wiggins or Pippen.

Your fallacy is that you believe that there's only one way to win titles and that's with a guy "caring the scoring load" while we've seen championship teams with 20ppg topscorers.

You're building your whole argument around something as circumstancial as winning championships. If the 80s Celtics played in the 90s and took 3 championship off of the Bulls would Jordan's brand of basketball suddenly be worse? Would it make him a worse basketball player without playing any different?

Why do you penalize Shaq and Lebron for something they have no say in? If the Warriors never existed Lebron probably has 7 championships. Would that make his brand of ball suddenly better?

Your favourite point is defensive attention. Yet Shaq faced more attention during the three peat years than Jordan ever faced and you're saying he had a player facing equal attention. Just no. Kobe was doubled less and barely had a third man on him on drives. Opponents clearly game planned against Shaq and not as much Kobe.

[3ba11]

Your fallacy is that you believe that there's only one way to win titles and that's with a guy "caring the scoring load" while we've seen championship teams with 20ppg topscorers.





We're comparing title quality

Accordingly, guys like Magic or Lebron that won with elite producers like Kareem, AD and Wade have lower ring quality than guys like Curry that won with secondary producers like Klay or Wiggins.

Winning with secondary producers is tougher because it requires defeating maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load)

We saw ball-dominators like Lebron or Magic get their doors blown off when they tried to carry the scoring load (too ball-dominant), so this inferior brand of ball requires more scoring help.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry or MJ can maintain ball movement and beat top teams at carry-job volumes, thus requiring less scoring help (they need less help).

Btw, in the 01' and 02' Playoffs, Shaq had equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, so he didn't defeat maximum defensive attention like Jordan did for all 6 rings... Jordan averaged 10 more than his sidekick for the playoffs and Finals of all title runs.

[RRR3]

D-uh-uhhhh I'm retarded
:roll:

[3ba11]

:roll:

What's tougher - winning with Kareem and AD or winning with Wiggins?

So Curry > Magic and Lebron because he could win with less, while they got spanked with less, aka upset losses in 1990, 1991, 2009, 2010

[RRR3]

D-duh-uhhh-uhhhh me stupid hehehe d-duhhhh
:yaohappy:

[Overdrive]

We're comparing title quality

Accordingly, guys like Magic or Lebron that won with elite producers like Kareem, AD and Wade have lower ring quality than guys like Curry that won with secondary producers like Klay or Wiggins.

Winning with secondary producers is tougher because it requires defeating maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load)

We saw ball-dominators like Lebron or Magic get their doors blown off when they tried to carry the scoring load (too ball-dominant), so this inferior brand of ball requires more scoring help.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry or MJ can maintain ball movement and beat top teams at carry-job volumes, thus requiring less scoring help (they need less help).

Btw, in the 01' and 02' Playoffs, Shaq had equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, so he didn't defeat maximum defensive attention like Jordan did for all 6 rings... Jordan averaged 10 more than his sidekick for the playoffs and Finals of all title runs.

You don't want to go down the "title quality" road, when Jordan played won in an era without a 2nd super team.

I don't think you even know what your own bullshitbingo words mean. How can Kobe face equal defensive attention when teams doubled and tripled Shaq constantly, while Kobe at times was doubled, but mostly guarded 1v1? Difference in ppg doesn't say anything about the attention given.

[8Ball]

Today I learned Bird, Hakeem, Dirk, Barkley & Giannis were not great scorers :applause:

Jordan stans have lost the argument on this one.

LeBron getting the all time scoring record will hurt them deeply. More deeply than any championship Lebron has ever won.

[Johnny32]

What's tougher - winning with Kareem and AD or winning with Wiggins?

So Curry > Magic and Lebron because he could win with less, while they got spanked with less, aka upset losses in 1990, 1991, 2009, 2010

try harder fatboy

[Shooter]

IS THE GUY WITH THE MOST POINTS EVER GOOD AT POINTS?!!1

:lol :hammerhead: