Lebron is 20-21 in 41 Finals games with super-teams (excluding 07', 15', 18')

[3ba11]

So his skillset has a lottery record on the championship level (low team ceilings) regardless of cast

It's clear that "heliocentric" ball-dominance and low assist teams are an inferior skillset and methodology, respectively

By imposing spot-up roles that stall young players, the heliocentric skillset lacks the teammate development, fits or brand of ball to win organically and must resort to talent-based winning (team-hopping... all-star team strategy)..

[red1]

blah blah blah superteams

look who he was playing and look at all of the injuries his teammates had. his second and third option went down in a series against a 67 win team.


still ended up with 4 finals MVPs so it all worked out. : )



pippen's bulls won 55 games without baldan. stacked team.


the best team baldan beat was the jazz. with a 55-win team. not impressive.

[TheMan]

Yep, no my GOAT.

Bran Stans complain MJ played on super teams (he didn't) but for arguments sake let's accept this argument, well MJ never even let a Finals go 7 games OTOH, Bran with super teams is still sub .500...embarrassing :facepalm

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan went 1-9

[3ba11]

Jordan went 1-9 When nearly everyone else was lottery like Lebron, Durant, Curry and Giannis


Fixed

So if the primary knock that you have for Jordan's career is that he lost when everyone else lost - then you have nothing and he had the perfect career

[TheMan]

blah blah blah superteams

look who he was playing and look at all of the injuries his teammates had. his second and third option went down in a series against a 67 win team.


still ended up with 4 finals MVPs so it all worked out. : )



pippen's bulls won 55 games without baldan. stacked team.


the best team baldan beat was the jazz. with a 55-win team. not impressive.

So the 94 Bulls winning 55 games means it's a stacked team but the Jazz winning 55 is not impressive? Wut lol

BTW, the Suns were 62-20, so right off the top of my head I knew the Jazz weren't record wise the best team the Bulls faced in the Finals :facepalm

[red1]

So the 94 Bulls winning 55 games means it's a stacked team but the Jazz winning 55 is not impressive? Wut lol

BTW, the Suns were 62-20, so right off the top of my head I knew the Jazz weren't record wise the best team the Bulls faced in the Finals :facepalm

exactly.


all of your superteam complaints are foolish when you consider none of those so called superteams could win 55-games.



why would jordan ever "teamhop" or "collude" when his own team was that good without him.

[3ba11]

So the 94 Bulls winning 55 games means it's a stacked team but the Jazz winning 55 is not impressive? Wut,, lol


Not all 55 win-teams are the same

Some are championship-contending every year, while others are 2nd Round losers at their PEAK (with everything going for them as 3-peat champs) and otherwise borderline lottery in 95'

TLDR: some 55-win teams are dynasties and some are basically bad teams and 1-hit wonders

[red1]

meanwhile getting ganged up 4 v 1 with scrubs like boobie gibson as the second best option. could've used a pippen and a horace grant here. :roll:



https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dFqEU6R5RRo/maxresdefault.jpg
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/Qs52wQZDVUJntmm6OH-wwDF4bx4=/1400x1050/filters:format(jpeg)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19882606/celticsbron.jpg

[red1]

Not all 55 win-teams are the same

Some are championship-contending every year, while others are 2nd Round losers at their PEAK (with everything going for them as 3-peat champs) and otherwise borderline lottery in 95'

TLDR: some 55-win teams are dynasties and some are basically bad teams and 1-hit wonders

game 7 eastern conference semis.



plus 55-wins.












stacked.

[Spurs m8]

Fringe top 10 without the manufacturing, prisoners of the moment and weird grown men that worship him to fill a void in their own miserable lives

[3ba11]

game 7 eastern conference semis.



plus 55-wins.












stacked.


The Heat were injured in 15' but nearly made 16' ECF just like 94' Bulls


Playoffs

16' WADE'...... 22.3 PER.. 4.9 bpm.. 0.148 ws/48.. 0.8 vorp.. 22/6/4 on 47%
94' PIPPEN.... 22.8 PER.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.149 ws/48.. 0.7 vorp.. 23/8/6 on 43%


^^™ the difference is that Wade was building the Heat like a real 1st option does (lottery to nearly the ECF), while Pippen drove the Bulls downward and was borderline lottery in 95' before MJ restored 3-peat caliber

[TheMan]

meanwhile getting ganged up 4 v 1 with scrubs like boobie gibson as the second best option. could've used a pippen and a horace grant here. :roll:



https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dFqEU6R5RRo/maxresdefault.jpg
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/Qs52wQZDVUJntmm6OH-wwDF4bx4=/1400x1050/filters:format(jpeg)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19882606/celticsbron.jpg

You should be a lawyer bro, seriously. You wanna claim LeBron was always outgunned when LeGM practically chose his teammates from 2011 onward, yet still has a losing record :lol Playing with perrenial All Stars Wade, Bosh, Allen, Irving, Love, AD, Westbrook, DHoward, Anthony and solid role players but still losing more often times than not. Maybe if LeBron can get Curry, Giannis, KD, Luka, Jokic, Booker, Embiid and Butler to play with him can we stop with the outgunned narrative you Bronies love to push??? Would that finally be enough??? Moar halp!!!

Pa
The
Tic

[GrayGoat]

LeBron went to most of his finals without a super team

[SouBeachTalents]

You should be a lawyer bro, seriously. You wanna claim LeBron was always outgunned when LeGM practically chose his teammates from 2011 onward, yet still has a losing record :lol Playing with perrenial All Stars Wade, Bosh, Allen, Irving, Love, AD, Westbrook, DHoward, Anthony and solid role players but still losing more often times than not. Maybe if LeBron can get Curry, Giannis, KD, Luka, Jokic, Booker, Embiid and Butler to play with him can we stop with the outgunned narrative you Bronies love to push???

Pa
The
Tic
Genuinely curious, which series (besides the obv 2011) do you think LeBron lost with the better team?

[red1]

You should be a lawyer bro, seriously. You wanna claim LeBron was always outgunned when LeGM practically chose his teammates from 2011 onward, yet still has a losing record :lol Playing with perrenial All Stars Wade, Bosh, Allen, Irving, Love, AD, Westbrook, DHoward, Anthony and solid role players but still losing more often times than not. Maybe if LeBron can get Curry, Giannis, KD, Luka, Jokic, Booker, Embiid and Butler to play with him can we stop with the outgunned narrative you Bronies love to push??? Would that finally be enough??? Moar halp!!!

Pa
The
Tic

my dawg I'm just a fan of greatness.


leGOAT literally was the FIRST victim of superteams with rondo KG pierce and ray all ganging up on him. they split kobe's head open too and kobe was dealing with a shitload of injuries with a scrub like radmanovic out there and with KG punking gasoft at the time and bynum out if I'm not wrong.


kobe still had FAR better help and he still got clobbered by that team the first go even though he got his redemption and revenge.


haters are just mad because lebron proves that when he has a fair go he always comes out on top. he's literally undefeated in realistic and fair series. 2-0 in game 7 of the NBA finals against dynasties in even series. 2011 is the only anomaly and that is proven again because he clutched out the next two rings flat-out carrying the heat at times.



it is what it is.

[Axe]

6/22

[TheMan]

Genuinely curious, which series (besides the obv 2011) do you think LeBron lost with the better team?

For starters, 2014, they had just beaten the Spurs the year before, TParker, Manu and Duncan were one year older and on their final legs. Kawhi wasn't in his prime but up and coming, therefore Bran was the best player that series, easy. Bran's ball hogging ways was exposed by a team that shared the ball, a team it's core players were past their prime, a team that let role players like Mills and Green shine, a team that didn't rely on Bran to try to stat padding his way to another chip. That Finals exposed Bran's style of play, a team playing a beautiful style of basketball will always beat a Wilt lite team.

[TheMan]

my dawg I'm just a fan of greatness.


leGOAT literally was the FIRST victim of superteams with rondo KG pierce and ray all ganging up on him. they split kobe's head open too and kobe was dealing with a shitload of injuries with a scrub like radmanovic out there and with KG punking gasoft at the time and bynum out if I'm not wrong.


kobe still had FAR better help and he still got clobbered by that team the first go even though he got his redemption and revenge.


haters are just mad because lebron proves that when he has a fair go he always comes out on top. he's literally undefeated in realistic and fair series. 2-0 in game 7 of the NBA finals against dynasties in even series. 2011 is the only anomaly and that is proven again because he clutched out the next two rings flat-out carrying the heat at times.



it is what it is.

Kobe's Lakers came back and won the next year though, he didn't throw his teammates under the bus and leave for greener pastures.

[red1]

For starters, 2014, they had just beaten the Spurs the year before, TParker, Manu and Duncan were in their final legs. Kawhi wasn't in his prime but up and coming, therefore Bran was the best player that series, easy. Bran's ball hogging ways was exposed by a team that shared the ball, a team it's core players were past their prime, a team that let role players like Mills and Green shine, a team that didn't rely on Bran to try to stat padding his way to another chip. That Finals exposed Bran's style of play, a team playing a beautiful style of basketball will always beat a Wilt lite team.

wade was hobbled. heat couldn't keep up with and couldn't defend the spurs at all and the spurs FEASTED with their ball movement and shooting. the heat weren't the same team as the last few years, their defense took a huge hit.


you're so wrong that it's ridiculous. lebron was easily the best in the world that year.

[red1]

Kobe's Lakers came back and won the next year though, he didn't throw his teammates under the bus and leave for greener pastures.

yeah he won because he had the best frontcourt in the league in gasol and odom that year.

[red1]

jordan would be ringless if he had mo williams as his best 2nd player the way lebron did when he was on cleveland the first time around.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe's Lakers came back and won the next year though, he didn't throw his teammates under the bus and leave for greener pastures.
Yes, Kobe the infamously great teammate who snitched on Shaq, said to ship Bynum’s ass out of town, and demanded a trade just 2 years earlier :lol

There would be no more “greener pastures” for him to go to, after KG’s injury he had the best supporting cast in the league during his title years.

[red1]

Yes, Kobe the infamously great teammate who snitched on Shaq, said to ship Bynum’s ass out of town, and demanded a trade just 2 years earlier :lol

There would be no more “greener pastures” for him to go to, after KG’s injury he had the best supporting cast in the league during his title years.

I'm not even knocking bean he was balling those years.


gasol and odom is just not the same thing as mo williams and anderson varejao.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm not even knocking bean he was balling those years.


gasol and odom is just not the same thing as mo williams and anderson varejao.
I’m not either, he took care of business and won b2b titles. But the “he won with only Pau” narrative is completely dishonest, let’s not forget he had Phil as coach too.

[TheMan]

jordan would be ringless if he had mo williams as his best 2nd player the way lebron did when he was on cleveland the first time around.

I never said MJ would've won without any help, no player can win without great teammates. MJ got smoked vs Larry's Celtics because he had coked out scrubs while Bird had HOFers. What I will say is that if MJ had Shaq, Wade, Allen, Bosh, Irving, Love, AD, DHoward, CAnthony, Westbrook etc as teammates, he would've won more than what James did. MJ would actually let those guys do their thing without hogging the ball so much. Once MJ learned to trust his teammates, he hardly lost, Bran makes his teammates worse because of how much he dominates the ball, much like Wilt when he scored 50 a night and didn't win shit.

[red1]

I’m not either, he took care of business and won b2b titles. But the “he won with only Pau” narrative is completely dishonest, let’s not forget he had Phil as coach too.

its crazy how these baldan stains cant admit that those cavs were utter trash. its obvious they just want any player compared to their hero to go the barkley route and end up with zero rings.

[red1]

I never said MJ would've won without any help, no player can win without great teammates. MJ got smoked vs Larry's Celtics because he had coked out scrubs while Bird had HOFers. What I will say is that if MJ had Shaq, Wade, Allen, Bosh, Irving, Love, AD, DHoward, CAnthony, Westbrook etc as teammates, he would've won more than what James did. MJ would actually let those guys do their thing without hogging the ball so much. Once MJ learned to trust his teammates, he hardly lost, Bran makes his teammates worse because of how much he dominates the ball, much like Wilt when he scored 50 a night and didn't win shit.

:roll:



should he have given the ball to delonte west and mo williams more often? perhaps more varejao postups would have helped the team?




jordan is ringless without pippen. lebron proved that he wins on every franchise with every real supporting cast.

[SouBeachTalents]

:roll:



should he have given the ball to delonte west and mo williams more often? perhaps more varejao postups would have helped the team?




jordan is ringless without pippen. lebron proved that he wins on every franchise with every real supporting cast.
I’ve said it before, but LeBron’s had 6 legitimate title contenders in his career; 2011-13 Heat, 2016-17 Cavs, and 2020 Lakers, and he won 4 titles in those opportunities. Of the two he lost, one of them was on him, and the other he ran into arguably the GOAT team.

[red1]

4 finals MVPs. more than magic, bird, shaq, duncan, kareem, kobe, hakeem.


undisputed top-2 player of all-time.

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/t_share/MTkyMzU0Mjc0NTkwOTI2MDY2/304962178_1257390335099699_4156556448970096283_n.j pg

[sdot_thadon]

That's what happens when you face great competition. Mj wouldn't be 6 for 6 had he met teams of that caliber once he reached the finals. And I'm not one to say MJ's competition wasn't great, they just weren't on his teams level the way teams Lebron faced were.

[dankok8]

I’ve said it before, but LeBron’s had 6 legitimate title contenders in his career; 2011-13 Heat, 2016-17 Cavs, and 2020 Lakers, and he won 4 titles in those opportunities. Of the two he lost, one of them was on him, and the other he ran into arguably the GOAT team.

Add the 2014 Heat to that list. The 2014 Finals was basically a coin toss based on Vegas odds.

So yea 4 titles out of 7 healthy contending teams. That's pretty good and competitive against just about any all-time great except MJ who went 6 for 6.

[3ba11]

That's what happens when you face great competition. Mj wouldn't be 6 for 6 had he met teams of that caliber once he reached the finals. And I'm not one to say MJ's competition wasn't great, they just weren't on his teams level the way teams Lebron faced were.


The 15' Warriors could barely beat an injured Lebron team with Lebron shooting 39%, so they would get destroyed by Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers in 1998 or the Spurs with Duncan/Popovich/Robinson - these teams required a 10-year organic juggernaut to beat them (Jazz), so their superior talent would crush the newbie Warriors - Klay/Dray hadn't even been all-stars heading into the 15' season.

Furthermore, the Cavs were the preseason favorite in 2015 and 2016, so they were viewed as having superior on-paper talent - only a weak brand of ball prevented them from flirting with 70 wins like Kawhi and Curry.. So the "comp" argument doesn't work for the preseason favorite because that would reward underachieving the expectation..

Lebron hand-picked the preseason favorite for 6 straight years (11-16'), so he can't complain about comp if an team with inferior talent uses a superior strategy and chemistry (brand of ball) to beat him.. It's his fault for getting taught a basketball lesson by less-talented teams like the Spurs, Mavs and Warriors.

[kawhileonard2]

So his skillset has a lottery record on the championship level (low team ceilings) regardless of cast

It's clear that "heliocentric" ball-dominance and low assist teams are an inferior skillset and methodology, respectively

By imposing spot-up roles that stall young players, the heliocentric skillset lacks the teammate development, fits or brand of ball to win organically and must resort to talent-based winning (team-hopping... all-star team strategy)..

Wow!

[kawhileonard2]

That's what happens when you face great competition. Mj wouldn't be 6 for 6 had he met teams of that caliber once he reached the finals. And I'm not one to say MJ's competition wasn't great, they just weren't on his teams level the way teams Lebron faced were.

He lost with HCA. Something that never happened with MJ. Also he had to change teams to win and join forces with someone who won as the man while MJ was turning a franchise that never won into a dynasty. Hell Curry has as many titles as Lebron and came in after him.

[Ne 1]

The most efficient offense ever was the 2012-2014 Miami Heat when LeBron was on the court WITHOUT D-Wade the player that raises a teams floor the highest in NBA history is LeBron James the player with the biggest gap between his team winning or losing based on his presence is LeBron James 66% with him and 29% without him (and that's not before or after that's WHILE he's on the team)

[Ne 1]

blah blah blah you use the same two tired ass lines "heliocentric" and "winning spotlight" and recycle the same dumbass arguments over and over, try something else kid.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe's Lakers came back and won the next year though, he didn't throw his teammates under the bus and leave for greener pastures.

He publicly demanded a trade the summer of 2007.

How would he be able to leave in 07 when he was under contract till 2010???

[3ba11]

Genuinely curious, which series (besides the obv 2011) do you think LeBron lost with the better team?


He lost with the preseason favorite in 11', 14', 17' and 21' (also 15')

He lost with HCA and massive favorite status in 09' and 10' - that's what made him start colluding

[Full Court]

MASSIVE underachiever considering the favorable circumstances he created.