Has any other player created a dynasty with less help than Stephen Curry?

[Stephonit]

We keep hearing about how Curry has supposedly played on stacked teams but looking at what he started with the above question is more appropriate. Which other NBA dynastic team started with less?

[Axe]

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRF4Bwi_5wqctE99QGfr1PNv94_K0JP1 OExAw8SGHCZQn3FlBP7

[Spurs m8]

Jordan

Steph has played alongside what, 3 all stars at least...and won 2 of the chips with 3 all stars by his side.

Let's not act like KD was nothing and Thompson isn't one of the best shooters ever.

Always lots of solid role players...

Calm down, big dog

[ShawkFactory]

The Celtics won 29 games the year Bird was drafted. 3 championships in 6 years after that.

[SlickRick]

Luka Doncic.

[GimmeThat]

since dating Ayesha Curry is the same as dating a Kardashian. Yes.

other players lack the drive to push themselves due to the excessive attention they receive.

[TheGoatest]

Failed to make the playoffs with a 24 ppg & 6 apg teammate and two more 16 ppg teammates at an older age than LeBron was when he led a team full of bums to the finals.
Needed team to draft two future hall of famers and employ a future hall of fame coach. As soon as one of these components was missing, he failed to make the playoffs again (2020-21).
His "dynasty" creating legacy is very much similar to that of jordon. The only difference is that Curry didn't end up in the playoffs with his 30 win seasons and jordon ended up playing in the playoffs because a 30-52 record was enough for a playoff spot in jordon's early days.

[Kblaze8855]

A post injury 15ppg in the playoffs defensive oriented David Robinson in 99 was easily the best teammate Duncan had till he was 3 rings in.

They won the title isolating him over and over while Elliot needing a kidney transplant had like 2 points and Drob might have had 12. Second ring he’s got young TP still so inconsistent Pop was pulling him for Speedy Claxton and Manu who I think did about 9ppg on 40% shooting and couldn’t go long without needing to be pulled. Tony obviously grew to be a very good player but the closest thing to a superstar he played with between 1998 and Leonard’s last couple seasons there was Manu when he’d fully adjusted to the nba and that was generally off the bench for like 28 minutes.

The spurs were rarely some super talented team.

[Stephonit]

The Celtics won 29 games the year Bird was drafted. 3 championships in 6 years after that.

Bird is an interesting comparison to Curry. In 2012 the year Steph had the ankle injury that threatened his career the Warriors went 23-43 in a shortened seasoned so almost the same win rate as the 1979 Celtics. With Steph given the keys to the team the next year the Warriors also went on to win 3 championships in 6 years.

[ShawkFactory]

Bird is an interesting comparison to Curry. In 2012 the year Steph had the ankle injury that threatened his career the Warriors went 23-43 in a shortened seasoned so almost the same win rate as the 1979 Celtics. With Steph given the keys to the team the next year the Warriors also went on to win 3 championships in 6 years.

So I answered your question.

[Stephonit]

So I answered your question.

You gave an answer. But does it definitively answer my question? I don't think so. Bird's main supporting cast of McHale and Parish were drafted higher and older than Klay and Draymond. When the Celtics won in 1981 Parish drafted 8th was 27 and McHale drafted 3rd was 23. Klay and Draymond were 24 in 2015. Tiny Archibald was a more decorated player than anyone Curry played with at the beginning of his career but was coming off an Achilles injury. Bird did play his first year with Cowens. Even Maravich was on the team at the time but clearly various factors I'm unaware of conspired to make that team underperform expectations the reputation of those players might lead one to set.

[ShawkFactory]

You gave an answer. But does it definitively answer my question? I don't think so. Bird's main supporting cast of McHale and Parish were drafted higher and older than Klay and Draymond. When the Celtics won in 1981 Parish drafted 8th was 27 and McHale drafted 3rd was 23. Klay and Draymond were 24 in 2015. Tiny Archibald was a more decorated player than anyone Curry played with at the beginning of his career but was coming off an Achilles injury. Bird did play his first year with Cowens. Even Maravich was on the team at the time but clearly various factors I'm unaware of conspired to make that team underperform expectations the reputation of those players might lead one to set.
I don't expect that any answer will be sufficient for you.

[Stephonit]

I don't expect that any answer will be sufficient for you.

The question was posed not to benefit solely myself. I am aiming higher.

[3ba11]

We keep hearing about how Curry has supposedly played on stacked teams but looking at what he started with the above question is more appropriate. Which other NBA dynastic team started with less?


rookie Klay > rookie Pippen


88' PIPPEN...................... 7.9 ppg... bench-warmer

12' KLAY......................... 12.5 ppg... starter
12' DAVID LEE................. All-NBA
12' MONTA ELLIS............. All-Star


People simply forget that Jordan is the most organic winner of all-time - he started with absolutely nothing, while Curry enjoyed Klay as a starter in 2012 and multiple all-star teammates.

Meanwhile, Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team and added a 22/5/5 all-defender to make the 06' Playoffs as a veteran high seed.

[3ba11]

rookie Klay > rookie Pippen


88' PIPPEN...................... 7.9 ppg... bench-warmer

12' KLAY......................... 12.5 ppg... starter
12' DAVID LEE................. All-NBA
12' MONTA ELLIS............. All-Star


People simply forget that Jordan is the most organic winner of all-time - he started with absolutely nothing, while Curry enjoyed Klay as a starter in 2012 and multiple all-star teammates.

Meanwhile, Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team and added a 22/5/5 all-defender to make the 06' Playoffs as a veteran high seed.


no one8

[SouBeachTalents]

A post injury 15ppg in the playoffs defensive oriented David Robinson in 99 was easily the best teammate Duncan had till he was 3 rings in.

They won the title isolating him over and over while Elliot needing a kidney transplant had like 2 points and Drob might have had 12. Second ring he’s got young TP still so inconsistent Pop was pulling him for Speedy Claxton and Manu who I think did about 9ppg on 40% shooting and couldn’t go long without needing to be pulled. Tony obviously grew to be a very good player but the closest thing to a superstar he played with between 1998 and Leonard’s last couple seasons there was Manu when he’d fully adjusted to the nba and that was generally off the bench for like 28 minutes.

The spurs were rarely some super talented team.
A decisive end to the thread. And while Steph has proven without a shadow of a doubt he didn't need KD to win even multiple titles, the fact is half of his titles still came with KD outscoring him and winning FMVP, and the Warriors would never be considered dynasty status without 2017 & 2018.

[3ba11]

A decisive end to the thread. And while Steph has proven without a shadow of a doubt he didn't need KD to win even multiple titles, the fact is half of his titles still came with KD outscoring him and winning FMVP, and the Warriors would never be considered dynasty status without 2017 & 2018.


Duncan landed alongside David Robinson and an all-time coach

It's laughable to think that he created a dynasty with little help

The historical record shows that no one started with a 7 ppg rookie sidekick and won with less all-star help than Jordan - no one is close to this level of organic development - everyone else had pieces in place or existing good players on the team when they started..

ONLY JORDAN started with literally nothing... a 7 ppg sidekick and no all-star teammates - no one has started with less

but keep ignoring the facts - they aren't going anywhere lol

[iamgine]

Not sure if 2 championships separated by 7 seasons is considered a dynasty.

I consider the Warriors dynasty started when Durant joined and over when Durant left.

[WhiteKyrie]

Less help? Bro, what?

Klay Thompson - 5x All Star (missed 2 years)
Draymond Green - 4x All Star, DPOY
Kevin Durant - 12x All Star, MVP, 2x Finals MVP

That’s not counting the let me another great role players that surrounded these guys. Better than normal role players as well, Andre Iguodala, Jordan Poole, etc.

[SouBeachTalents]

Duncan landed alongside David Robinson and an all-time coach

It's laughable to think that he created a dynasty with little help

The historical record shows that no one started with a 7 ppg rookie sidekick and won with less all-star help than Jordan - no one is close to this level of organic development - everyone else had pieces in place or existing good players on the team when they started..

ONLY JORDAN started with literally nothing... a 7 ppg sidekick and no all-star teammates - no one has started with less

but keep ignoring the facts - they aren't going anywhere lol
So the fakkit who drones on about ppg is now hyping up the Robinson who averaged less ppg in '99 than Pippen did for any title run? Ditto Parker in '03. And Pop's experience/credentials when Duncan arrived were no better than Phil's when he went to the Bulls.

Duncan won 4 superstar titles without another All-NBA player on the team, something Jordan only did once.

[WhiteKyrie]

Duncan arguably wasn’t the best player on all four of his championships. Nobody counts the 1999 championship, worst NBA season in modern times by far. It was the first lockout, so many players came in to the season fat and out of shape. And they were lucky that the Bulls got dismantled a year early, otherwise they definitely would’ve won. When the eighth seed Ewing less Knicks got to the finals, that should tell you something. The culture change of the spurs, was equal parts Gregg Popovich and Tim Duncan, and Timmy played with a litany of great players. Tony Parker, Manu Ginóbili, Steven Jackson, Kawhi Leonard, even old David Robinson. More fallacy myth making for Tim Duncan.

[Stephonit]

rookie Klay > rookie Pippen


88' PIPPEN...................... 7.9 ppg... bench-warmer

12' KLAY......................... 12.5 ppg... starter
12' DAVID LEE................. All-NBA
12' MONTA ELLIS............. All-Star


People simply forget that Jordan is the most organic winner of all-time - he started with absolutely nothing, while Curry enjoyed Klay as a starter in 2012 and multiple all-star teammates.

Meanwhile, Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team and added a 22/5/5 all-defender to make the 06' Playoffs as a veteran high seed.

???

Are you saying David Lee was All-NBA in the 2012 season where the Warriors were 23-43 that Curry mostly missed due to ankle injury?

Can you show me when Monta Ellis was ever an All-Star?

[hateraid]

I might wanna throw in IT. Without Thomas they did not have a clear cut scorer down the stretch and floor general. Dumars is great 2 way player but probably the least offensively gifted as the others mentioned.
This is a good snapshot of just how good IT was at carrying this team.

[RogueBorg]

Not sure if 2 championships separated by 7 seasons is considered a dynasty.

.

With no back-to-backs...not a dynasty.

[SouBeachTalents]

Nobody counts the 1999 championship
Yeah, it counts. You don't have to like it, but Duncan is factually a 5x champion. And we all know if Jordan had won that year you would never in a million years say that shit :lol


And they were lucky that the Bulls got dismantled a year early, otherwise they definitely would’ve won
The Bulls nearly lost to the Pacers & Jazz the year before, they were clearly on their last legs during that '98 run. Could the Bulls have won in '99? Sure. Would they have "definitely" won? Absolutely not, and it's a ridiculous claim to make. Duncan & Robinson would've absolutely annihilated the Bulls frontcourt, that's a series the Spurs were very capable of winning.


Timmy played with a litany of great players. Tony Parker, Manu Ginóbili, Steven Jackson, Kawhi Leonard, even old David Robinson.
Yeah, nobody said Duncan didn't have a great roster around him, you don't have the ridiculous amount of success that he did without one. But Blaze is right, those first 2 titles he had some of the weakest championship supporting casts ever, especially in '03.


More fallacy myth making for Tim Duncan.
Let's see you keep that same energy the next time 3ball claims Pippen was Jeff Green caliber :lol

[GimmeThat]

as if Curry could walk into the Warrior's owner's office and say "you've probably been the stingiest owner in the history of this sport."

[3ba11]

Let's see you keep that same energy the next time 3ball claims Pippen was Jeff Green caliber :lol


Outside the triangle and dynasty chemistry that he grew up in (system player), Pippen averaged 14 ppg in 1999 and was easily a worse scorer than Jeff Green

That's the historical record and you can't show me where Pippen was greater than Jeff Green outside the triangle because it doesn't exist.

Houston hated Pippen (https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2022/7D0vE4.gif) and traded the 6-time champion for nothing

[hateraid]

Outside the triangle and dynasty chemistry that he grew up in (system player), Pippen averaged 14 ppg in 1999 and was easily a worse scorer than Jeff Green

That's the historical record and you can't show me where Pippen was greater than Jeff Green outside the triangle because it doesn't exist.

Houston hated Pippen (https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2022/7D0vE4.gif) and traded the 6-time champion for nothing

Did you take into account playing behind Barkley and Hakeem?
Or playing on a balanced scoring attack led by Rasheed Wallace and Stoudemire?
Or tell us when Barkley outscored Jordan by 4 points a game despite play 5 more minutes?

Again 3ball pulls stats with no context

[3ba11]

Are you saying David Lee was All-NBA in the 2012 season





David Lee was All-NBA in 2013 when Curry was healthy - Lee led the Warriors to 47 wins that year as the team's only All-NBA player, so this entire thread is moot based on that alone

And Steph joined a 25 ppg guy in Monta, while rookie Klay averaged 13 and started.

That doesn't compare to Jordan having no all-star or All-NBA teammates and rookie Pippen was an 8 ppg bench-warmer

[3ba11]

stats with no context






Here's the context - Houston hated Pippen:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2022/7D0vE4.gif




So they traded the 6-time champion for nothing asap

Pippen was the only 90's sidekick that wasn't a "1b" that could get elite stats and dominate.. Since he had the lowest peak capability (transition/hustle player), he wasn't on the scouting report and made MJ defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).

[hateraid]

Here's the context - Houston hated Pippen:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2022/7D0vE4.gif




So they traded the 6-time champion for nothing asap

Pippen was the only 90's sidekick that wasn't a "1b" that could get elite stats and dominate.. Since he had the lowest peak capability (transition/hustle player), he wasn't on the scouting report and made MJ defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).

That context only goes against your statement. Keep up here bud.

[Kblaze8855]

. Yeah, it counts. You don't have to like it, but Duncan is factually a 5x champion. And we all know if Jordan had won that year you would never in a million years say that shit :lol


Its such a stupid claim. People thinking their opinion on what “counts” matters. Like anyone is checking for some internet trolls personal record book. Reality doesn’t care what anyone thinks and everything that ever happened counted regardless.

[3ba11]

That context only goes against your statement. Keep up here bud.


It says that they tried to make the 33-year-old Pippen a higher option, but he simply wasn't anywhere near 36-year fossils Barkley and Hakeem, who were SEVERAL YEARS past their prime

Btw, that excerpt was part of an article describing how much Houston literally hated Pippen and traded him asap for nothing

[NBAGOAT]

This was a good topic really drove conversations from different stans. I do think it’s Duncan but tbf he also didn’t have high end competition from stacked teams most of the 00s besides 03. Lot of 2 star teams and the pistons. Klay and dray aren’t the biggest all time greats but it’s a fact they were very good in 2015 and all were all nba lvl in 16.

[SouBeachTalents]

This was a good topic really drove conversations from different stans. I do think it’s Duncan but tbf he also didn’t have high end competition from stacked teams most of the 00s besides 03. Lot of 2 star teams and the pistons. Klay and dray aren’t the biggest all time greats but it’s a fact they were very good in 2015 and all were all nba lvl in 16.
They won like 5 playoff games without Curry in 2016, and not just won, they were legit blowing teams out :lol Klay & Dray were putting up elite production in those games, and went on to have all-time great performances against OKC in Game 6 and against Cleveland in Game 7.

The worst way people evaluate players is judging them solely on their all-time status. All that matters is how well they played at the time. So sure, Klay & Dray very likely won't even make the top 100 list when it gets released, but they were legit top 15-20 players at their peaks. Ditto Gasol, who was the best 2nd option in the league in '09 & '10 and a top 10-15 player.

[WhiteKyrie]

Here's the context - Houston hated Pippen:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2022/7D0vE4.gif




So they traded the 6-time champion for nothing asap

Pippen was the only 90's sidekick that wasn't a "1b" that could get elite stats and dominate.. Since he had the lowest peak capability (transition/hustle player), he wasn't on the scouting report and made MJ defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).
This explains exactly why he is possibly the greatest sidekick of all time, the greatest Robin to someone else as Batman.

But also just as much explains how he wasn’t an MVP, game changing, franchise corner stone superstar that could score and facilitate at the level of a number 1 option.

He was no Shaquille O’Neal, no Dwyane Wade, no Anthony Davis. And you could even make the argument, not a Kyrie Irving

[John8204]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSFZnoZrrYJwMcqXr9cKDiHzVKiuSJ0 WHthQ&usqp=CAU

https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2021/12/20213804/35_MIKAN-1.jpg

Only one...the man they called Mr. Basketball or The Monster

[hateraid]

It says that they tried to make the 33-year-old Pippen a higher option, but he simply wasn't anywhere near 36-year fossils Barkley and Hakeem, who were SEVERAL YEARS past their prime

Btw, that excerpt was part of an article describing how much Houston literally hated Pippen and traded him asap for nothing

Again, it doesn't fit your original statement comparing Pippen to Green. Keep up dude

[Real Men Wear Green]

I don't understand how someone could have watched Curry's whole career and yet have no idea who Kevin Durant is. Thompson Green and whoever that Durant guy is have all been Allstars and played with Curry in their prime. Warriors have annihilated the luxury tax to ensure they have a great team.

[KNOW1EDGE]

Yes, many people. Off the top of my head:

Michael Jordan
Dirk Nowitzki
Giannis Antetokumpo
Kobe Bryant

[3ba11]

This explains exactly why he is possibly the greatest sidekick of all time, the greatest Robin to someone else as Batman.





Why does Jordan have to win with a "Robin", while everyone else had a 1b?

Everyone else had "1b" equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention - only MJ had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).

Many people prefer to believe that "scoring isn't everything"... Unfortunately, elite-scoring help is what everyone in history needed tons of, except the GOAT (mj).

So when you say "Robin", you're only talking about non-1st options like Iggy, Pippen, Wiggins, Lowry, etc - these secondary-producing sidekicks can't dominate and therefore force the 1st option to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).

Otoh, the premier tier of sidekicks are infact dominant 1st options or "1b's" like Kobe, AD, Kareem, Curry, Wade, Kyrie, etc... These guys take over numerous series and achieve elite stats or lead their team in scoring.

It's important to note that every 90's sidekick was infact a 1b that could achieve elite stats and take over many series EXCEPT PIPPEN - pippen is the only sidekick that was more of a transition/hustle player that couldn't average elite stats in a series, while also having the lowest peak capability (no game-planning required (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif)).. These are easily-provable facts in the historical record..

[97 bulls]

Here's the context - Houston hated Pippen:



https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2022/7D0vE4.gif




So they traded the 6-time champion for nothing asap

Pippen was the only 90's sidekick that wasn't a "1b" that could get elite stats and dominate.. Since he had the lowest peak capability (transition/hustle player), he wasn't on the scouting report and made MJ defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).

They traded Pippen because he didnt want to be there. Pippen publicly complained about his he was being underutilized in the offense. Even if Rudy T wrote plays to include him in the offense, it obviously didn't work. In spite of playing more minutes than Hakeem and Barkley, Hakeem led the team in FGAs and Barkey tied for second with Pip.

Pippen wanted the Rockets to play a more open court, but Barkely was too fat and out of shape,and Olajuwan was to old.


"The system that was in place in Houston was completely different than the one he was used to when playing for the Bulls. There was a lot of iso basketball, unlike the free-flowing system the Bulls had in place with the triangle offense. Hakeem and Barkley were taking most of the shots, and Pippen's main task was to get them the ball, and he wasn't so much involved in the offense as he was with the Bulls."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.basketballnetwork.net/.amp/old-school/scottie-pippen-details-why-joining-the-houston-rockets-was-the-biggest-mistake-in-his-career

[97 bulls]

Why does Jordan have to win with a "Robin", while everyone else had a 1b?

Everyone else had "1b" equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention - only MJ had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).

Many people prefer to believe that "scoring isn't everything"... Unfortunately, elite-scoring help is what everyone in history needed tons of, except the GOAT (mj).

So when you say "Robin", you're only talking about non-1st options like Iggy, Pippen, Wiggins, Lowry, etc - these secondary-producing sidekicks can't dominate and therefore force the 1st option to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).

Otoh, the premier tier of sidekicks are infact dominant 1st options or "1b's" like Kobe, AD, Kareem, Curry, Wade, Kyrie, etc... These guys take over numerous series and achieve elite stats or lead their team in scoring.

It's important to note that every 90's sidekick was infact a 1b that could achieve elite stats and take over many series EXCEPT PIPPEN - pippen is the only sidekick that was more of a transition/hustle player that couldn't average elite stats in a series, while also having the lowest peak capability (no game-planning required (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif)).. These are easily-provable facts in the historical record..

Jordan was never gonna allow a "1b". He didn't even do it in the Olympics. Fortunately for him, Pippen's impact on the game went past scoring. Not to mention, Jordan said he wanted to lead the league in scoring. So in order for Pip to keep up, he would've had to try to jack up shots close to what Jordan was doing. Fortunately, he didnt

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this makes you a troll.

[Axe]

No klay, no play. Period.

[Stephonit]

Yes, many people. Off the top of my head:

Michael Jordan
Dirk Nowitzki
Giannis Antetokumpo
Kobe Bryant

Nowitzki and Antetokounmpo have led dynastic teams?

[Stephonit]

David Lee was All-NBA in 2013 when Curry was healthy - Lee led the Warriors to 47 wins that year as the team's only All-NBA player, so this entire thread is moot based on that alone

And Steph joined a 25 ppg guy in Monta, while rookie Klay averaged 13 and started.

That doesn't compare to Jordan having no all-star or All-NBA teammates and rookie Pippen was an 8 ppg bench-warmer

Lee led the Warriors in 2013? Curry led the team in PPG for the regular season and then in the playoffs Lee got injured in the first game which the Warriors lost. But the Warriors then went on to win the series without Lee.

It only makes sense that Jordan had an exceptionally weak team in his first year. Jordan was a number one draft pick and the higher the pick the weaker the team the pick is supposed to go to. After that though he was joined by Pippen, Grant, and Cartwright, all three of whom were all-stars at some point in a year playing without Jordan. Monta has never been an all-star and Klay hasn't had yet the opportunity to be an all-star on a team without Steph.

Pippen who you criticize for being a weak scorer in comparison to Klay had multiple triumphant finals series where he averaged 20 ppg and was the second highest scorer on the team. Klay was only able to have a greater than 20 ppg finals series average once in 2019 when the Warriors lost. Klay has never been among the top two highest average ppg scorers in a finals series the Warriors have won.

[Sulico]

A post injury 15ppg in the playoffs defensive oriented David Robinson in 99 was easily the best teammate Duncan had till he was 3 rings in.

They won the title isolating him over and over while Elliot needing a kidney transplant had like 2 points and Drob might have had 12. Second ring he’s got young TP still so inconsistent Pop was pulling him for Speedy Claxton and Manu who I think did about 9ppg on 40% shooting and couldn’t go long without needing to be pulled. Tony obviously grew to be a very good player but the closest thing to a superstar he played with between 1998 and Leonard’s last couple seasons there was Manu when he’d fully adjusted to the nba and that was generally off the bench for like 28 minutes.

The spurs were rarely some super talented team.

That's some weird ass take.

2005 Regular season

WS/48
Duncan .245
Manu .240

BPM
Duncan 7.6
Manu 6.9

VORP
Duncan 5.4
Manu 4.9

TS%
Duncan .540
Manu .609


2005 Playoffs

WS/48
Duncan .191
Manu .260

BPM
Duncan 5.5
Manu 9.2

VORP
Duncan 1.6
Manu 2.2

TS%
Duncan .526
Manu .652

In 2005 Manu was really close to Duncan in RS while being far better player in the playoffs, yet your take is Duncan didn't have a talented team?

[Johnny32]

Lee led the Warriors in 2013? Curry led the team in PPG for the regular season and then in the playoffs Lee got injured in the first game which the Warriors lost. But the Warriors then went on to win the series without Lee.

It only makes sense that Jordan had an exceptionally weak team in his first year. Jordan was a number one draft pick and the higher the pick the weaker the team the pick is supposed to go to. After that though he was joined by Pippen, Grant, and Cartwright, all three of whom were all-stars at some point in a year playing without Jordan. Monta has never been an all-star and Klay hasn't had yet the opportunity to be an all-star on a team without Steph.

Pippen who you criticize for being a weak scorer in comparison to Klay had multiple triumphant finals series where he averaged 20 ppg and was the second highest scorer on the team. Klay was only able to have a greater than 20 ppg finals series average once in 2019 when the Warriors lost. Klay has never been among the top two highest average ppg scorers in a finals series the Warriors have won.

lol clueless

[Stephonit]

Simply facts anyone can look up.

[Kblaze8855]

That's some weird ass take.

2005 Regular season

WS/48
Duncan .245
Manu .240

BPM
Duncan 7.6
Manu 6.9

VORP
Duncan 5.4
Manu 4.9

TS%
Duncan .540
Manu .609


2005 Playoffs

WS/48
Duncan .191
Manu .260

BPM
Duncan 5.5
Manu 9.2

VORP
Duncan 1.6
Manu 2.2

TS%
Duncan .526
Manu .652

In 2005 Manu was really close to Duncan in RS while being far better player in the playoffs, yet your take is Duncan didn't have a talented team?


No he did not have a particularly talented team especially in the times I referenced which you apparently read and then replied to something else. Not that what you had to say about 2005 is true either. Some formula does not make Manu top 7-10 all time which is what prime Duncan was. Manu was a great player…greater than his numbers. But a bunch of numbers put together doesn’t tell that story.

Tim Duncan being so selfless and supporting is the only reason his guards were allowed to blossom the way they were. Give Duncan a bad attitude and the spurs never could have developed the team first brand they won with.

It’s not all who gets the ball, who shot what, or any of that. It’s how your team performs as a unit and few have ever contributed so much to team culture and allowing accountability. Dude was mvp getting chewed out and nodding in compliance…what the hell is the 10th man gonna do?

Tim Duncan was the spurs culture and anchored a goat tier defense that had as much to do with them winning as any individuals numbers could.

Duncan makes a team greater than the sum of its parts. Doesn’t make the parts bad. But they all did more than similarly talented lineups would be expected. Dirk was a beast and unselfish himself but he was running with another mvp and 3 all stars besides at times back then. Shaq and Kobe had each other. Steph and Durant. Lebron and Wade. Manu and Tony were both special players but it wasn’t a situation where it was multiple all time elites plus a really good roster. Duncan had similar success or more with players who while good were not…that.

Duncan had a normal pretty good nba team that had abnormal results even for teams with insane talent and his second best player was like a 2 time all star usually coming off the bench. It wasn’t a traditional stacked lineup. It was a great team. Those are very different things.

[ShawkFactory]

No he did not have a particularly talented team especially in the times I referenced which you apparently read and then replied to something else. Not that what you had to say about 2005 is true either. Some formula does not make Manu top 7-10 all time which is what prime Duncan was. Manu was a great player…greater than his numbers. But a bunch of numbers put together doesn’t tell that story.

Tim Duncan being so selfless and supporting is the only reason his guards were allowed to blossom the way they were. Give Duncan a bad attitude and the spurs never could have developed the team first brand they won with.

It’s not all who gets the ball, who shot what, or any of that. It’s how your team performs as a unit and few have ever contributed so much to team culture and allowing accountability. Dude was mvp getting chewed out and nodding in compliance…what the hell is the 10th man gonna do?

Tim Duncan was the spurs culture and anchored a goat tier defense that had as much to do with them winning as any individuals numbers could.

Duncan makes a team greater than the sum of its parts. Doesn’t make the parts bad. But they all did more than similarly talented lineups would be expected. Dirk was a beast and unselfish himself but he was running with another mvp and 3 all stars besides at times back then. Shaq and Kobe had each other. Steph and Durant. Lebron and Wade. Manu and Tony were both special players but it wasn’t a situation where it was multiple all time elites plus a really good roster. Duncan had similar success or more with players who while good were not…that.

Duncan had a normal pretty good nba team that had abnormal results even for teams with insane talent and his second best player was like a 2 time all star usually coming off the bench. It wasn’t a traditional stacked lineup. It was a great team. Those are very different things.

This is something that doesn't get talked about nearly enough. People typically praise Duncan's defense, but it generally doesn't go as far as you've described. His presence made the team better on defense, and not just by standing under the basket and cleaning mistakes. Everyone performed on a higher level and on the same page always.

The 04 Pistons defense always gets talked about here, and rightfully so because of how they performed in the finals. But best defense in the league..much less all time? They were comfortably the second best defensive team that year.

[Sulico]

No he did not have a particularly talented team especially in the times I referenced which you apparently read and then replied to something else. Not that what you had to say about 2005 is true either. Some formula does not make Manu top 7-10 all time which is what prime Duncan was. Manu was a great player…greater than his numbers. But a bunch of numbers put together doesn’t tell that story.

Tim Duncan being so selfless and supporting is the only reason his guards were allowed to blossom the way they were. Give Duncan a bad attitude and the spurs never could have developed the team first brand they won with.

It’s not all who gets the ball, who shot what, or any of that. It’s how your team performs as a unit and few have ever contributed so much to team culture and allowing accountability. Dude was mvp getting chewed out and nodding in compliance…what the hell is the 10th man gonna do?

Tim Duncan was the spurs culture and anchored a goat tier defense that had as much to do with them winning as any individuals numbers could.

Duncan makes a team greater than the sum of its parts. Doesn’t make the parts bad. But they all did more than similarly talented lineups would be expected. Dirk was a beast and unselfish himself but he was running with another mvp and 3 all stars besides at times back then. Shaq and Kobe had each other. Steph and Durant. Lebron and Wade. Manu and Tony were both special players but it wasn’t a situation where it was multiple all time elites plus a really good roster. Duncan had similar success or more with players who while good were not…that.

Duncan had a normal pretty good nba team that had abnormal results even for teams with insane talent and his second best player was like a 2 time all star usually coming off the bench. It wasn’t a traditional stacked lineup. It was a great team. Those are very different things.

You said that 99 Robinson was the best Duncan had till 3 titles in, which is past 2005 title, that's why I showed you the numbers of Manu in that 3rd title run.

The fact that analytics wasn't a thing back then and guys like Jamaal Magloire or Caron Butler were making All-Star teams, didn't mean that they were better than Manu. Spurs were insanely talented team from 2003 to at least 2008. They had 2 time MVP, Manu, who was Euroleague MVP and destroyed his teammate Duncan in 2004 Olympics and who, at times, was best player on the team, they had one of the best finishers in the league at PG, defensive genius Bruce Bowen, oh and Big Shot Rob who always transformed into star in the playoffs. They were so talented, that the only thing that stopped them from fivepeating was Popovich's stubbornness.

[Kblaze8855]

When I said till 3 titles I meant until 2005. Though there are those who would pull some advanced defensive stats out of their ass to suggest Drob was a superstar in the top 10 range back then as a rule I disregard such things when running totally opposite to what I see.

Far as the 03 Spurs being insanely talented….

I don’t even know what the point of that is. If Duncan and like 4 high end role players and random top 300 players in 03 is insane talent what are we calling the Showtime lakers, the Curry/KD warriors, and other obvious super teams?

Super ultra mega insane talent?

Lets reel it in a bit.

The spurs relative to their success were….ok. They were among the most successful teams ever. They absolutely weren’t one of the most talented.

[WhiteKyrie]

The Spurs were also never a dynasty and never went even back to back, not even once.

The vast majority of their championships came when some greater team, finally broke down or fell apart or was dismantled.

1999 Chicago Bulls dismantled by GM, a year early.

2003 Lakers finally broke down due to no roster upgrades in 4 years, and Shaq being lazy.

And in 2007 should’ve been the Suns winning the Finals if it wasn’t for the stupid asinine suspensions against Phoenix after dirty tactics from Spurs players.

2014 Heat broke down due to D-Wade’s degenerative physical state and the emergence of Kawhi Leonard, by that point, as SA’s best player.

The only legit championship in that run was 2005, and that one could’ve gone either way with the Pistons, and it shouldn’t have even been Detroit in the Finals if Dwyane Wade didn’t get injured in the eastern conference finals.

Literally, scavenger champions. Always have been. It consistently very good, year in and year out team, never great. Yet all this gets attributed as positives in favor of Tim Duncan?

San Antonio Vulture Champs

[ShawkFactory]

The Spurs were also never a dynasty and never went even back to back, not even once.

The vast majority of their championships came when some greater team, finally broke down or fell apart or was dismantled.

1999 Chicago Bulls dismantled by GM, a year early.

2003 Lakers finally broke down due to no roster upgrades in 4 years, and Shaq being lazy.

And in 2007 should’ve been the Suns winning the Finals if it wasn’t for the stupid asinine suspensions against Phoenix after dirty tactics from Spurs players.

2014 Heat broke down due to D-Wade’s degenerative physical state and the emergence of Kawhi Leonard, by that point, as SA’s best player.

The only legit championship in that run was 2005, and that one could’ve gone either way with the Pistons, and it shouldn’t have even been Detroit in the Finals if Dwyane Wade didn’t get injured in the eastern conference finals.

Literally, scavenger champions. Always have been. It consistently very good, year in and year out team, never great. Yet all this gets attributed as positives in favor of Tim Duncan?

San Antonio Vulture Champs

What about the times that they got unlucky and didn’t win? Speaking of 04, 06, and 13. You could quick legitimately argue that 3 total plays cost them 3 championships.

They were the best team in the league from 04-07 by pretty much every metric. As much as they were lucky for a couple rings, they’re unlucky that they dint have a couple more. It all comes out in the wash.

[3ba11]

What about the times that they got unlucky and didn’t win? Speaking of 04, 06, and 13. You could quick legitimately argue that 3 total plays cost them 3 championships.

They were the best team in the league from 04-07 by pretty much every metric. As much as they were lucky for a couple rings, they’re unlucky that they dint have a couple more. It all comes out in the wash.


Agreed - some guys need 7 games to win Finals (lucky bounces) which lowers the integrity of their rings

Lebron is a bounce or 2 away from a 2/10 bum, while MJ's 6/6 is legit - no luck required during the 6 Finals wins

[ShawkFactory]

Agreed - some guys need 7 games to win Finals (lucky bounces) which lowers the integrity of their rings

Lebron is a bounce or 2 away from a 2/10 bum, while MJ's 6/6 is legit - no luck required during the 6 Finals wins

I don't think you know what integrity means

[Stephonit]

Did I say Jordan was a number one draft pick in my earlier post? Sorry, my bad. Number three of course. Doesn't change my argument. But correction is here for circumspection.

[Street Hunger]

Did I say Jordan was a number one draft pick in my earlier post? Sorry, my bad. Number three of course. Doesn't change my argument. But correction is here for circumspection.

True

[Street Hunger]

Worth reviewing the supporting cast Steph Klay and Dray had before KD, and last year's title team too

[Kblaze8855]

What about the times that they got unlucky and didn’t win? Speaking of 04, 06, and 13. You could quick legitimately argue that 3 total plays cost them 3 championships.

They were the best team in the league from 04-07 by pretty much every metric. As much as they were lucky for a couple rings, they’re unlucky that they dint have a couple more. It all comes out in the wash.


Imagine watching a team win not one or two…but five titles…and taking from it that they were just lucky. And ignoring of course that maybe the luckiest shot ever(Fisher), the dumbest foul ever(Manu trying to block dirks layup up 2 giving them a 3 point play to tie), And one of the clutches tying shots in history(ray) might’ve prevented you from winning eight.

Its like nobody can get on the internet and just be real. Every take has to be dipped in a bullshit coating of some variety. And the back to back thing is maybe as bad. Like Duncan’s career is better if Ray misses in 13 but he didn’t have a goat tier run to win in 03 because the same 5 rings has 2 of them back to back.

Nit picking hate at its finest.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


In 2012, rookie Curry missed the season, while David Lee led the Warriors to 47 wins in 2013 as the team's only All-NBA player.

In addition to having an All-NBA teammate in Lee, Curry landed alongside a 25 ppg player in Monta Ellis, while rookie Klay averaged 13 ppg and started.

This is obviously a lot more help than Jordan had with rookie Pippen getting 8 ppg off the bench and a team of bums

[Nb1]

Less help? The guy literally had 5 al stars playing next to him and as soon as even 1 gets injured he can't even make the playoffs looooool. If there's 1 star in history who needs help its Curry. He couldn't even make the playoffs with 2 all stars, he needs at least 4.

[red1]

curry's dynasty needed kyrie and love to go down 2015 and then needed the western conference all-star starting line-up in 2017 and 2018.


2022 was his first finals MVP. :oldlol:

[Stephonit]

.
Thread Cliffs


In 2012, rookie Curry missed the season, while David Lee led the Warriors to 47 wins in 2013 as the team's only All-NBA player.

In addition to having an All-NBA teammate in Lee, Curry landed alongside a 25 ppg player in Monta Ellis, while rookie Klay averaged 13 ppg and started.

This is obviously a lot more help than Jordan had with rookie Pippen getting 8 ppg off the bench and a team of bums



You're all over the place so I cannot get your story straight.

All-NBA only-with-Curry David Lee? Young Jordan got to play with 7x All-NBA George Gervin. David Lee was leading the team in 2012 when they had a 23-win record. It was Curry leading the team the next year when they had a 47-win record. That 20-win or so improvement is probably what got Lee the All-Star and All-NBA selection but in hindsight I think we all know Curry was the one largely responsible for that.

Monta 25 points Ellis? He was chucking at an effective field goal percentage of 47.6%. Meanwhile Jordan had Orlando Woolridge putting up nearly 23 points at 55.4 % eFG.

All-Rookie Klay? Charles Oakley was All-Rookie. Quintin Dailey was recent All-Rookie too.

[Axe]

You're all over the place so I cannot get your story straight.

All-NBA only-with-Curry David Lee? Young Jordan got to play with 7x All-NBA George Gervin. David Lee was leading the team in 2012 when they had a 23-win record. It was Curry leading the team the next year when they had a 47-win record. That 20-win or so improvement is probably what got Lee the All-Star and All-NBA selection but in hindsight I think we all know Curry was the one largely responsible for that.

Monta 25 points Ellis? He was chucking at an effective field goal percentage of 47.6%. Meanwhile Jordan had Orlando Woolridge putting up nearly 23 points at 55.4 % eFG.

All-Rookie Klay? Charles Oakley was All-Rookie. Quintin Dailey was recent All-Rookie too.
Steve kerr

[Stephonit]

Steve kerr

Won 3 rings with Jordan. Has won 4 rings with Curry.

[Full Court]

Won 3 rings with Jordan. Has won 4 rings with Curry.

He played what, three full years with Jordan? And got a ring in every one of them? How many years has he been with Curry?

I have tons of respect for Curry, but that argument is just silly.

[Axe]

Won 3 rings with Jordan. Has won 4 rings with Curry.
So a total of 7 rings with either of them? Plus two during his stint with the spurs.

Which makes it 9 > 6 > 4 in total.

[Stephonit]

He played what, three full years with Jordan? And got a ring in every one of them? How many years has he been with Curry?

I have tons of respect for Curry, but that argument is just silly.

Without Curry for most of the season the Kerr coached Warriors were last in the league. Without Jordan the Bulls Kerr was part of were still contenders.

[Axe]

Without Curry for most of the season the Kerr coached Warriors were last in the league. Without Jordan the Bulls Kerr was part of were still contenders.
Are you telling us that curry was more valuable to the warriors than jordan ever was to the bulls? :coleman:

[Stephonit]

Are you telling us that curry was more valuable to the warriors than jordan ever was to the bulls? :coleman:

Is that the conclusion that you drew? You said it not me.

[Axe]

Is that the conclusion that you drew? You said it not me.
Let kerr tell us what he thinks someday.

[Stephonit]

Created a dynasty with main guys who haven't won a championship anywhere else without him. What other NBA dynasties are like that?

[ShawkFactory]

Created a dynasty with main guys who haven't won a championship anywhere else without him. What other NBA dynasties are like that?

Almost all of them.

[SATAN]

Almost all of them.

https://media.tenor.co/images/2cd1ce8c87a7574c5ca4382a0a809d0a/raw

[Stephonit]

Almost all of them.

Could you give examples?

[ralph_i_el]

Would you rather have Scottie Pippen or Monta Ellis?

[ShawkFactory]

Could you give examples?

60s and 80s Celtics, bulls, spurs, late 2000s lakers, etc.

Rockets unless you consider Horry a main guy, which you could I guess. But that says a hell of a lot about Hakeem then.

[999Guy]

Shaq flat out had less help than Curry for his first 3 rings.

In a not close way either.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Almost all of them.

You can tell Stephonit had been on recently because a bunch of stupid threads about Curry are getting bumped.

[Stephonit]

60s and 80s Celtics, bulls, spurs, late 2000s lakers, etc.

Rockets unless you consider Horry a main guy, which you could I guess. But that says a hell of a lot about Hakeem then.

60s Celtics had Havlicek who won in twice the 70s without Russell. 80s Celtics had Dennis Johnson who won with the SuperSonics. 90s Bulls had Dennis Rodman who won with the Bad Boy Pistons and Horace Grant who won with the 2001 Lakers. Spurs had Kawhi.

Hakeem with the Rockets yes for the first season but he had Drexler the second go around. Horry is a guy who influences the outcome for the Rockets and Spurs depending on how you consider him.

Late 2000 Lakers seem like a relevant comparison as do early Spurs but it still seems that if we're talking dynasties that haven't had a main player winning elsewhere the Warriors currently appear to be fairly unique.

[ShawkFactory]

60s Celtics had Havlicek who won in twice the 70s without Russell. 80s Celtics had Dennis Johnson who won with the SuperSonics. 90s Bulls had Dennis Rodman who won with the Bad Boy Pistons and Horace Grant who won with the 2001 Lakers. Spurs had Kawhi.

Hakeem with the Rockets yes for the first season but he had Drexler the second go around. Horry is a guy who influences the outcome for the Rockets and Spurs depending on how you consider him.

Late 2000 Lakers seem like a relevant comparison as do early Spurs but it still seems that if we're talking dynasties that haven't had a main player winning elsewhere the Warriors currently appear to be fairly unique.

Drexlers only title was with the rockets.

[Stephonit]

Drexlers only title was with the rockets.

You're right my bad. Drexler's previous two finals appearances leading the Trail Blazers confused me for a moment there.