View Full Version : Why do people give Lebron a pass for losing with Mo when Dirk won with Terry and
3ba11
10-12-2022, 02:12 AM
.
vastly inferior team defense:
09' Mo Williams..... 17/3/4 on 59 TS.... 17.2 PER... 2.3 bpm... 0.165 ws/48... 3.1 vorp... #3 team defense
11' Jason Terry...... 16/2/4 on 55 TS.... 15.8 PER... 0.9 bpm... 0.100 ws/48... 1.9 vorp... #8 team defense
And don't bother cry about Terry outplaying Mo in the playoffs because players will always perform better in a better brand of ball that has playoff sustainability, which Terry benefitted from.. Otoh, Mo was stuck in a predictable spot-up role that was shut down in the playoffs.. Players shoot better off unpredictable ball movement rather than repetitive ball-dominance where defenders anticipate and close out well on the kickout.
Lebron still got 18 on 38% from Mo against Orlando but we know that ball-dominators lack the brand of ball to successfully carry the scoring load against top teams (too ball-dominant) and therefore need all-time scoring help like Kareem, Wade, AD, Kyrie and super-teams.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters maintain brand of ball at carry-job volumes, so they can carry the scoring load against top teams and win with secondary producers like Wiggins, Pippen, Terry or Lowry.
Lebron infact never defeated a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades), nor did he defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals).. Ball-dominators simply lack the brand of ball and expert jumpshooting skill to carry the scoring load - this means they can't carry bed-wetting sidekicks over top teams or defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals).
SATAN
10-12-2022, 02:19 AM
It's funny because his name is 3ball and meanwhile his god had the worst 3 point shooting contest performance in history. :oldlol:
:facepalm
3ba11
10-12-2022, 02:26 AM
It's funny because his name is 3ball and meanwhile his god had the worst 3 point shooting contest performance in history. :oldlol:
:facepalm
You have to practice for a 3-point contest - you can't go in there cold turkey just because you're MJ
And people don't seem to realize something regarding the in-game performance - Curry would shoot poorly from three if he purposefully limited himself to 1 bailout three per game like Jordan did for most of his career.
But whenever Jordan took above bailout volume (more than 1.5 attempts), he shot at today's standard - this includes 37% on 3 attempts in 1990, or 39% on 4 attempts in the 93' Playoffs (better than Kawhi's title run in 19') and 43% on 5 attempts in the 92' Finals.
Notice how Jordan's efficiency increased with attempts - perfect form will always shoot better at higher volume (rhythm).. So Jordan would have a ton of "shrug" games at today's higher volumes.
warriorfan
10-12-2022, 08:58 AM
ether
they are gonna dodge this thread
ShawkFactory
10-12-2022, 09:13 AM
Jason Terry was better than Mo Williams.
And there are 10 other players on team and a coaching staff. Next.
Shooter
10-12-2022, 09:15 AM
It's funny because his name is 3ball and meanwhile his god had the worst 3 point shooting contest performance in history. :oldlol:
:facepalm
:roll::roll:
warriorfan
10-12-2022, 10:24 AM
Jason Terry was better than Mo Williams.
And there are 10 other players on team and a coaching staff. Next.
how many all star games did terry make?
TheMan
10-12-2022, 11:05 AM
It's funny because his name is 3ball and meanwhile his god had the worst 3 point shooting contest performance in history. :oldlol:
:facepalm
Explain how MJ shot better from 3pt line in the Finals than Bran? 37% to 35%? Who cares about a 3pt shooting contest :lol
1987_Lakers
10-12-2022, 11:08 AM
OP has been caught saying Kobe and Jordan are 1A and 1B but he ignores the fact that Kobe got swept by that same Dallas team despite having Pau, Bynum, and Odom.
ShawkFactory
10-12-2022, 12:12 PM
how many all star games did terry make?
Don’t think he made any. Why?
mo williams was awful
the tallest perimeter guard those cavs had was 6'3 delonte west
they went up against two shooters who were 6'9 and 6'10 in rashard and hedo who both got hot
lebron was the only one that could defend one of the two
and dwight ate old slow Z alive
2009 lebron is right there with any version of jordan all-time. go watch the games.
jordan was ringless before he got real help. zero rings without the stacked roster that could win 55-games without him.
those cavs that year wouldnt win 40 games without lebron (2009 cavaliers)
lebron single-handedly got them to 66 wins :roll:
GOAT
those cavs that year wouldnt win 40 games without lebron (2009 cavaliers)
lebron single-handedly got them to 66 wins :roll:
GOAT
They wouldn’t even have won 30 without him. He was responsible for like 40+ wins that year.
OP has been caught saying Kobe and Jordan are 1A and 1B but he ignores the fact that Kobe got swept by that same Dallas team despite having Pau, Bynum, and Odom.
mo williams is trash
dirk had jason terry PLUS jason kidd who was FINALLY hitting threes and still guarding at an elite level, tyson chandler who was elite at guarding the paint (lebron had ZERO defense for dwight, meanwhile kobe had PAU AND ODOM who shut dwight down), mavs had shawn marion who was an EXCELLENT veteran defender, had shooters going off in deshawn peja barea etc etc
OP is absolutely retarded. mj would have gotten SWEPT if he had that cavs team against the magic that year.
They wouldn’t even have won 30 without him. He was responsible for like 40+ wins that year.
OP convinced me that jordan's career isnt that impressive.
jordan is ringless without a team so stacked that they could win 55-games while he was banned from the league
lebron never had a single team that could win 45 games without him
and jordan's best scalp is the old lakers when kareem retired. or the jazz.
mavs caught the heat in their first year when they were figuring out it out
they would have gotten destroyed by the 2012 or 2013 heat with an easy finals MVP for lebron.
3ba11
10-12-2022, 12:46 PM
Those cavs that year wouldnt win 40 games without lebron (2009 cavaliers)
The problem with this logic is that it flies in the face of the historical record
The 2008 Cavs were a bummy 45-win team, so Mo didn't join a good team - he MADE them good by teaching everyone for the first time that Lebron's game needs elite shooting help..
Ultimately, Mo improved the Cavs from 45 to 66 wins by getting higher stats across board than 90' Pippen (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency), while the Cavs had the #3 defense (better than the 1st three-peat Bulls)...So the 09' and 10' Cavs were stacked with better defenses and more scoring options than the 1st three-peat Bulls
The problem with this logic is that it flies in the face of the historical record
The 2008 Cavs were a bummy 45-win team, so Mo didn't join a good team - he MADE them good by teaching everyone for the first time that Lebron's game needs elite shooting help..
Ultimately, Mo improved the Cavs from 45 to 66 wins by getting higher stats across board than 90' Pippen (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency), while the Cavs had the #3 defense (better than the 1st three-peat Bulls)...So the 09' and 10' Cavs were stacked with better defenses and more scoring options than the 1st three-peat Bulls
you are mentally retarded and the way that you post quite literally proves that you are insane.
mo williams is an awful player. your argument that he is more talented than scottie pippen proves that you have the lowest basketball IQ in the history of this board.
you are lucky that those threads have been deleted.
how many games did those cavs win when lebron left?
jordan has the most overrated career in the history of pro sports.
his team was so talented that they went to game 7 of the 2nd round and won 55-games while he was banned from the league for gambling:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html
and he was beating up on cans like the jazz who had white boys on the perimeter in stockton and hornacek while the 6'7 long-armed perimeter beast was on his own team in pippen :roll:
https://media.giphy.com/media/xT1XGESDlxj0GwoDRe/giphy-downsized-large.gif
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ab/6b/c4/ab6bc4db8bba391cedc05921807e4537.jpg
Phoenix
10-12-2022, 12:56 PM
89 Pippen.
grocery bagging rivals :roll:
https://i.postimg.cc/k5pXdN5h/Rivalry-Decade.jpg
ether
they are gonna dodge this thread
dodge what bitch. all we do is take this jordan stan's soul.
when we have free-time. some of us are gainfully employed and dont have time to waste spamming a troll forum.
unlike your bum ass.
3ba11
10-12-2022, 01:10 PM
the tallest perimeter guard those cavs had was 6'3 delonte west
they went up against two shooters who were 6'9 and 6'10 in rashard and hedo who both got hot
Hedo and Lewis are forwards that would never be defended by Delonte - the only reason that Delonte guarded them is because LEBRON REFUSED TO GUARD HIS POSITION AND CHOSE TO "SAVE ENERGY" BY GUARDING COURTNEY LEE AND ALSTON INSTEAD
SO THE DEFENSIVE BREAKDOWN WAS ENTIRELY LEBRON'S FAULT. FOR NOT DEFENDING THE FORWARD POSITION IN THAT SERIES - IT WAS A GOAT DEFENSIVE CHOKE
in addition to this goat defensive choke, Lebron choked in the critical Game 4 OT that swung the series, while Dwight dominated and outplayed him
2009 lebron is right there with any version of jordan all-time. go watch the games.
As a ball-dominator - but that's it - he was a Luka-style ball-dominator - that's decent but doesn't compare to Jordan's all-world play (elite on-ball and off with all-time jumpshooting skill) - this fostered better teammate development, fits and brand of ball for better teams (better team ceiling/Finals record).
So Lebron was great in 2009 but he couldn't play off-ball and had a broke jumper, so he couldn't foster the teammate fits or brand of ball that yields better teams without super-team cast..
And he wasn't clutch - he had back-to-back meltdowns while losing in 10' and 11' - Wade had to teach Lebron how to perform under pressure
mo williams was awful
18 on 38% isn't that horrible and Jordan beat top 5 SRS teams with that crap from Pippen all the time.
Otoh, Lebron never defeated a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades), nor did he defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals)..
The reason is simple - ball-dominators lack the brand of ball to successfully carry the scoring load against top teams (too ball-dominant) and therefore need all-time scoring help like Kareem, Wade, AD, Kyrie and super-teams.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters maintain brand of ball at carry-job volumes, so they can carry the scoring load against top teams and win with secondary producers like Wiggins, Pippen, Terry or Lowry.
Hedo and Lewis are forwards that would never be defended by Delonte - the only reason that Delonte guarded them is because LEBRON REFUSED TO GUARD HIS POSITION AND CHOSE TO "SAVE ENERGY" BY GUARDING COURTNEY LEE AND ALSTON INSTEAD
SO THE DEFENSIVE BREAKDOWN WAS ENTIRELY LEBRON'S FAULT. FOR NOT DEFENDING THE FORWARD POSITION IN THAT SERIES
in addition to this goat defensive choke, Lebron choked in the critical Game 4 OT that swung the series, while Dwight dominated and outplayed him
As a ball-dominator - but that's it - he was a Luka-style ball-dominator - that's decent but doesn't compare to Jordan's all-world play (elite on-ball and off with all-time jumpshooting skill) - this fostered better teammate development, fits and brand of ball for better teams (better team ceiling/Finals record).
So Lebron was great in 2009 but he couldn't play off-ball and had a broke jumper, so he couldn't foster the teammate fits or brand of ball that yields better teams without super-team cast..
And he wasn't clutch - he had back-to-back meltdowns while losing in 10' and 11' - Wade had to teach Lebron how to perform under pressure
18 on 38% isn't that horrible and Jordan beat top 5 SRS teams with that crap from Pippen all the time.
Otoh, Lebron never defeated a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades), nor did he defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals)..
Unfortunately, ball-dominators lack the brand of ball to successfully carry the scoring load against top teams (too ball-dominant) and therefore need all-time scoring help like Kareem, Wade, AD, Kyrie and super-teams.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters maintain brand of ball at carry-job volumes, so they can carry the scoring load against top teams and win with secondary producers like Wiggins, Pippen, Terry or Lowry.
wrong. I actually watched every minute of every single one of those games.
jordan would have gotten swept 4-0 if the cavs swapped him out for lebron.
the tallest player on the cavs perimeter outside of lebron was 6'3 delonte. the next player with the most minutes was 6'1 mo.
shard and hedo were both listed at 6'10 (more like 6'9 for rashard)
and dwight ate old z alive but got destroyed in the next round vs the lakers when he went up against real bigmen in their prime aka odom and pau.
you are the dumbest poster in the history of this board. jordan is literally ringless without his 55-win cast.
meanwhile lebron has a ring on every franchise he ever played on (3/3). :oldlol:
you said he would never win a legit ring. that proves you are the dumbest poster ever. best player in the world every year he's in his prime never winning a ring. :oldlol:
just deal with it bro.
there's only 1 player in nba history with a finals MVP over a 70-win team.
18 on 38% isn't that horrible and Jordan beat top 5 SRS teams with that crap from Pippen all the time.
Otoh, Lebron never defeated a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (zero carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades), nor did he defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals)..
The reason is simple - ball-dominators lack the brand of ball to successfully carry the scoring load against top teams (too ball-dominant) and therefore need all-time scoring help like Kareem, Wade, AD, Kyrie and super-teams.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters maintain brand of ball at carry-job volumes, so they can carry the scoring load against top teams and win with secondary producers like Wiggins, Pippen, Terry or Lowry.
pippen was an elite defender and mo was the worst defender on the court. comparing their stats again proves how dumb you are.
jordan beating trash teams is like lebron being 10/10 in conference finals
lebron would have gone 9/10 if he had a 55-win supporting cast going up against the perimeter cans that jordan went up against.
6'1 gary payton gave him the business - 6'7 kawhi would have taken jordan's lunch :roll:
3ba11
10-12-2022, 01:53 PM
pippen was an elite defender and mo was the worst defender on the court.
* the 2009 Cavs had a better defense (3rd) than the 1st three-peat Bulls (7th)
* On offense, Mo achieved standard Pippen stats (18 on 38%)
so there's no reason on either side of the ball for Lebron to lose that series... :confusedshrug:
And according to you, 18 on 38% from Mo is "awful", but it's top 30 all-time when Pippen does it
Pippen literally averaged 16.9 on 40% for 2 title runs (96', 98') - he actually averaged 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs.. He also averaged 16 on 40% against X-Man in the 92' ECSF, which nearly caused a massive upset - so why couldn't Lebron win with this from Mo, while also having better team defense?
RogueBorg
10-12-2022, 02:02 PM
Because they are the kings of excuses.
RogueBorg
10-12-2022, 02:04 PM
6'1 gary payton gave him the business -
By 2025 GP will be 5'-8"
Because they are the kings of excuses.
nah just facts.
pippens bulls won 55-games when jordan left:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html
mo williams cavaliers won 19 games when leGOAT left:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2011.html
By 2025 GP will be 5'-8"
how tall is he then....
his official height is 6'1....
these jordan fans get shit on every time they post :oldlol:
RogueBorg
10-12-2022, 02:09 PM
nah just facts.
pippens bulls won 55-games when jordan left:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html
And didn't win the championship...failure.
gary MAY be 6'2ish, we'll give him that
And didn't win the championship...failure.
game 7 eastern conference semis without the best player in the world.... getting nothing in return...
that is VERY close to a ring...
add lebron to that roster and what happens....
RogueBorg
10-12-2022, 02:15 PM
how tall is he then....
his official height is 6'1....
According to what?
Everywhere I look he's 6'-4"
Basketball Reference
Statmuse
RogueBorg
10-12-2022, 02:17 PM
game 7 eastern conference semis without the best player in the world.... getting nothing in return...
that is VERY close to a ring...
add lebron to that roster and what happens....
LOL at thinking not making the Finals is very close to a ring. That's a good one.
Didn't even make the ECF...only loser Lebronstans :roll:
3ba11
10-12-2022, 02:19 PM
Can anyone tell me why 18 on 38% from Mo is "awful", but it's top 30 all-time when Pippen does it for entire three-peats (96-98' Playoffs) or numerous Finals and series?
And don't mention defense because the 09' Cavs had a better defense (3rd) than the 1st three-peat Bulls (7th, 4th, 7th).
So cut the crap - the historical record shows that there are ZERO EXAMPLES of pippen playing greater than an Iggy or Wiggins caliber (and frequently below that), but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status - he was worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle!!! (the houston disaster)
According to what?
Everywhere I look he's 6'-4"
Basketball Reference
Statmuse
I'm joking around and looking at real player heights...
jordan and kobe are more like 6'5 barefoot and gp is WAY shorter than them....
Can anyone tell me why 18 on 38% from Mo is "awful", but it's top 30 all-time when Pippen does it for entire three-peats(96-98' Playoffs) or numerous Finals and series?
And don't mention defense because the 09' Cavs had a better defense (3rd) than the 1st three-peat Bulls (7th, 4th, 7th).
The historical record shows that there are ZERO EXAMPLES of pippen playing greater than an Iggy or Wiggins caliber (and frequently below that), but the winning spotlight simply inflated him to all-time status
dude. mo williams was AWFUL both playoffs on the cavs (2009 and 2010).
lebron STILL got him a ring in 2016.
just stop lying all the time. you're honestly the most delusional poster in the history of this board. jordan's own teammate that now has more rings than him said lebron and mj is a toss-up. :roll:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG8wjJNdf4&ab_channel=ESPN
RogueBorg
10-12-2022, 02:22 PM
I'm joking around and looking at real player heights...
jordan and kobe are more like 6'5 barefoot and gp is WAY shorter than them....
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0e/5b/56/0e5b5638aa1685ff121e2951a3e80231.jpg
Can anyone tell me why 18 on 38% from Mo is "awful", but it's top 30 all-time when Pippen does it for entire three-peats (96-98' Playoffs) or numerous Finals and series?
And don't mention defense because the 09' Cavs had a better defense (3rd) than the 1st three-peat Bulls (7th, 4th, 7th).
So cut the crap - the historical record shows that there are ZERO EXAMPLES of pippen playing greater than an Iggy or Wiggins caliber (and frequently below that), but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status - he was worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle!!! (the houston disaster)
mo williams was the worst defender on the cavs meanwhile pippen was the best perimeter defender in the league alongside jordan.
that is quite the difference you ****ing retard. :oldlol:
RogueBorg
10-12-2022, 02:23 PM
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-10-17/Gary-The-Glove-Payton-is-interested-becoming-an-NBA-head-coach-UFa4RHsqGY/img/0ced02e61ea24fc39eaf27b97f2440a9/0ced02e61ea24fc39eaf27b97f2440a9.jpeg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0e/5b/56/0e5b5638aa1685ff121e2951a3e80231.jpg
dude.....
jason kidd and gary payton being listed at 6'4 is just laughable :roll:
RogueBorg
10-12-2022, 02:26 PM
jason kidd and gary payton being listed at 6'4 is just laughable :roll:
You keep saying that but pictures show he's not 5" shorter than Jordan.
3ba11
10-12-2022, 02:28 PM
dude. mo williams was AWFUL both playoffs on the cavs (2009 and 2010).
lebron STILL got him a ring in 2016.
just stop lying all the time. you're honestly the most delusional poster in the history of this board. jordan's own teammate that now has more rings than him said lebron and mj is a toss-up. :roll:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG8wjJNdf4&ab_channel=ESPN
Mo Williams 2009 ECF................ 18 on 38%
Scot Pippen 1996 Finals............. 16 on 34%
Scot Pippen 1998 Finals............. 16 on 41%
Scot Pippen 1998 ECF................ 16 on 39%
Scot Pippen 1992 ECSF.............. 16 on 40% (destroyed by X-Man)
Scot Pippen 96-98' Playoffs........ 18 on 41%
Again, why is it "awful" when Mo does it but top 30 all-time when Pippen does it?
And don't mention defense because the 09' Cavs had a better defense (3rd) than the 1st three-peat Bulls (7th, 4th, 7th).
So cut the crap - the historical record shows that there are ZERO EXAMPLES of pippen playing greater than an Iggy or Wiggins caliber (and frequently below that), but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status - he was worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle!!! (the houston disaster (https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2022/7D0vE4.gif)... aka how good was Pippen? Fossil Barkley finished plays at twice the rate)
You keep saying that but pictures show he's not 5" shorter than Jordan.
kobe's wife said kobe was 6'4.75 barefoot. similar height to jordan.
dwade is about 6'3. shorter than both.
gp is clearly shorter than dwade. they won a ring together.
gp is 6'2 at best.
Mo Williams 2009 ECF................ 18 on 38%
Scot Pippen 1996 Finals............. 16 on 34%
Scot Pippen 1998 Finals............. 16 on 41%
Scot Pippen 1998 ECF................ 16 on 39%
Scot Pippen 1992 ECSF.............. 16 on 40% (destroyed by X-Man)
Scot Pippen 96-98' Playoffs........ 18 on 41%
Again, why is it "awful" when Mo does it but top 30 all-time when Pippen does it?
And don't mention defense because the 09' Cavs had a better defense (3rd) than the 1st three-peat Bulls (7th, 4th, 7th).
So cut the crap - the historical record shows that there are ZERO EXAMPLES of pippen playing greater than an Iggy or Wiggins caliber (and frequently below that), but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status - he was worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle!!! (the houston disaster)
you are mentally. ****ing. retarded.
why do they still let you post here? they are that desperate for the spam views that you bring in.
you are wrong AGAIN.
mo williams was a liability on BOTH SIDES of the floor.
find me one series where pippen is a liability on both sides of the floor, let alone one side of the floor.
just give it up OP.
jordan's career is overrated.
3ba11
10-12-2022, 02:34 PM
you are mentally. ****ing. retarded.
why do they still let you post here? they are that desperate for the spam views that you bring in.
you are wrong AGAIN.
mo williams was a liability on BOTH SIDES of the floor.
find me one series where pippen is a liability on both sides of the floor, let alone one side of the floor.
Curry is a liability on defense but he's still far superior to Pippen and actually yields better defensive teams because you can surround a great offensive player like Curry with cheap defenders, while Pippen needs expensive offensive help.
So your defensive argument fails - great shooters and offensive players like Mo can be surrounded by cheap defenders, so Mo's presence allowed the Cavs to have better defensive teams than the 1st three-peat Bulls.
You're failing big time itt
Again, why is 18 on 38% from Mo "awful", but top 30 for Pippen?.. Again, Pippen didn't give the Bulls better defensive teams than the Cavs - the Cavs had better defensive teams because great shooters like Mo can be surrounded by cheap defenders, while Pippen needs expensive shooters and offensive help
Curry is a liability on defense but he's still far superior to Pippen and actually yields better defensive teams because you can surround Curry with cheap defenders, while Pippen needs expensive offensive help.
So your defensive argument fails - great shooters and offensive players like Mo can be surrounded by cheap defenders, so Mo's presence allowed the Cavs to have better defensive teams than the 1st three-peat Bulls.
You're failing big time itt
curry is the best offensive player on his team (and possibly the league) while being a minor liability on defense
mo williams is a liability on offense AND defense.
if you are comparing mo williams to stephen curry then you are AGAIN showing the fact that you have the lowest IQ in the history of this board.
remember when you used to say that curry that was overrated trash, and then you flipflopped to saying he is the best in the league?
flip-flopping? again?
as per usual?
3ba11
10-12-2022, 02:41 PM
curry is the best offensive player on his team (and possibly the league) while being a minor liability on defense
mo williams is a liability on offense AND defense.
if you are comparing mo williams to stephen curry then you are AGAIN showing the fact that you have the lowest IQ in the history of this board.
remember when you used to say that curry that was overrated trash, and then you flipflopped to saying he is the best in the league?
flip-flopping? again?
as per usual?
The Cavs had a better defense than the Bulls, so Mo's defense didn't matter - great shooters and offensive players like Mo allow teams to get more cheap defenders, so he gave the Cavs a better defense than the Bulls - Pippen requires shooters like Paxson or Kerr that can't play defense, so the Bulls had a worse defense than Mo's Cavs
So we're back to the offense - why is 18 on 38% from Mo "awful", but it's top 30 for Pippen?
bruh keep arguing until you're blue in the face
you already lost :oldlol:
mo williams = scrub
pippen = HOF
3ba11
10-12-2022, 02:47 PM
mo williams = scrub
pippen = HOF
Pippen requires shooters like Paxson or Kerr that can't play defense, so the Bulls had a worse defense than Mo's Cavs.. Otoh, great shooters like Mo or Curry allow GM's to fill out the team with cheap defenders, so he gave the Cavs a better defense than Pippen gave the Bulls..
This is similar to Bird, Curry, Kyrie and other great shooters that were on #1 defensive teams - great offensive players allow GM's to fill out the team with cheap defenders
you lost the argument hence your deflection rate increasing
Another win for 3ball... Like mayWEATHer... undefeated
Pippen requires shooters like Paxson or Kerr that can't play defense, so the Bulls had a worse defense than Mo's Cavs.. Otoh, great shooters like Mo or Curry allow GM's to fill out the team with cheap defenders, so he gave the Cavs a better defense than Pippen gave the Bulls..
This is similar to Bird, Curry, Kyrie and other great shooters that were on #1 defensive teams - great offensive players allow GM's to fill out the team with cheap defenders
you lost the argument hence your deflection rate increasing
Another win for 3ball... Like mayWEATHer... undefeated
dude you just look mentally retarded at this point.
you're still comparing mo williams to scottie pippen. that's 11 years ago. edit 12 years ago.
these kids dont even know who mo williams is. he was a scrub.
you already flipflopped on everything and lost every argument.
dont steal my mayweather shtick. we're 50-0.
3ba11
10-12-2022, 03:03 PM
:facepalm:9
3ba11
10-12-2022, 03:04 PM
bruh keep arguing until you're blue in the face
you already lost :oldlol:
09' Mo Williams vs #4 SRS Magic........ 18 on 38%...... #3 team defense
89' Scot Pippen vs #1 SRS Cavs'......... 15 on 40%.... #11 team defense
97' Scot Pippen vs #4 SRS Heat..'....... 16 on 39%...... #4 team defense
98' Scot Pippen vs #4 SRS Pacers'....... 17 on 39%...... #9 team defense
98' Scot Pippen vs #3 SRS Jazz'.......... 16 on 41%...... #9 team defense
96-98' Pippen entire playoffs............... 18 on 41%...... #1, #4, #9 defenses
TLDR: Jordan beat better teams than the 09' Magic with worse defenses than the 09' Cavs and less offensive help
Again, great shooters and offensive players allow GM's to fill out the team with cheap defenders, so guys like Mo and Curry actually give teams better defenses than bricklayers like Pippen, who require expensive offensive help.. Pippen needed guys like Kukoc, Kerr and Paxson, who couldn't play defense.
https://media.tenor.com/zdFtiktD6-wAAAAS/accomplished-job.gif.
09' Mo Williams vs #4 SRS Magic........ 18 on 38%...... #3 team defense
89' Scot Pippen vs #1 SRS Cavs'......... 15 on 40%.... #11 team defense
97' Scot Pippen vs #4 SRS Heat..'....... 16 on 39%...... #4 team defense
98' Scot Pippen vs #4 SRS Pacers'....... 17 on 39%...... #9 team defense
98' Scot Pippen vs #3 SRS Jazz'.......... 16 on 41%...... #9 team defense
96-98' Pippen entire playoffs............... 18 on 41%...... #1, #4, #9 defenses
TLDR: Jordan beat better teams than the 09' Magic with worse defenses than the 09' Cavs and less offensive help
Again, great shooters and offensive players allow GM's to fill out the team with cheap defenders, so guys like Mo and Curry actually give teams better defenses than bricklayers like Pippen, who require expensive offensive help.. Pippen needed guys like Kukoc, Kerr and Paxson, who couldn't play defense.
https://media.tenor.com/zdFtiktD6-wAAAAS/accomplished-job.gif.
this ***** said scottie pippen and mo williams
https://media.tenor.com/_RXvBoRx9xkAAAAd/idi-amin-laugh.gif
https://media.tenor.com/_RXvBoRx9xkAAAAd/idi-amin-laugh.gif
https://media.tenor.com/_RXvBoRx9xkAAAAd/idi-amin-laugh.gif
AlternativeAcc.
10-12-2022, 03:07 PM
Why do people pretend Jordan wasn't a ball hogging, low iq loser until pippen came and saved his garbage 1-9 career. Why do people pretend jordan is top 10?
Beats me, but Jordan losing with Woolridge whose way better than Mo is proof enough Jordan is garbage.
Why do people pretend Jordan wasn't a ball hogging, low iq loser until pippen came and saved his garbage 1-9 career. Why do people pretend jordan is top 10?
Beats me, but Jordan losing with Woolridge whose way better than Mo is proof enough Jordan is garbage.
jordan beat up on cans. with a stacked roster on his side.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1994.html
****ing STACKED!!!!! :roll::roll::roll:
3ba11
10-12-2022, 03:22 PM
Why do people pretend Jordan wasn't a ball hogging, low iq loser
because teammates grew by leaps and bounds alongside Jordan:
https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-12-2022/JMQEZq.gif
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1985-02-07-8501080020-story.html
Beats me, but Jordan losing with Woolridge whose way better than Mo is proof enough Jordan is garbage.
Woolridge wasn't a top 3 player at his position in the conference (all-star), so he was less help than all-star Zydrunas in 2005, yet Lebron was lottery that year.
Ultimately, Woolridge was just unlucky that he didn't get numerous years to develop chemistry and brand with prime MJ like Pippen did
Pippen also played with jordan AFTER the super-team 80's where expansion spread the talent around evenly so 2-star teams could win.. Anyone wins alongside the GOAT in a 2-star vs 2-star format and Pippen was the lucky, low-producing bum that happened to land alongside the DPOY and scoring champ in 1988.
until pippen came and saved his garbage 1-9 career.
So Jordan only needed an 8 ppg rookie to save him, while Lebron needed prime Wade/Bosh and a super-team - preseason favorite for 6 straight years (11-16')...
what a coddled fraud that manufactured his resume - before the decision, he was a 1-trick pony with 1 Finals run like Iverson or Dwight, while also being a career-losing ball-dominator like Luka, CP3 or Westbrook.
3ball is such a bum :oldlol:
SouBeachTalents
10-12-2022, 04:21 PM
You could literally use 3ball’s logic to claim Mo Williams > Bill Russell. “And don’t mention defense, rebounding or playmaking!” :lol
warriorfan
10-12-2022, 04:58 PM
lebron stans are absolutely fuming right now
:roll:
At least it only took dirk two finals to win a finals mvp, unlike chef. :(
Full Court
10-12-2022, 06:29 PM
You have to practice for a 3-point contest - you can't go in there cold turkey just because you're MJ
And people don't seem to realize something regarding the in-game performance - Curry would shoot poorly from three if he purposefully limited himself to 1 bailout three per game like Jordan did for most of his career.
But whenever Jordan took above bailout volume (more than 1.5 attempts), he shot at today's standard - this includes 37% on 3 attempts in 1990, or 39% on 4 attempts in the 93' Playoffs (better than Kawhi's title run in 19') and 43% on 5 attempts in the 92' Finals.
Notice how Jordan's efficiency increased with attempts - perfect form will always shoot better at higher volume (rhythm).. So Jordan would have a ton of "shrug" games at today's higher volumes.
This is context that Bronies can't even begin to comprehend.
Also, they always ignore the FACT that Jordan has a higher finals 3-point % than Lebron does - you know, when it actually counts.
why are these arguments all so unconvincing :oldlol:
lebron is easily a toss-up GOAT with jordan. anyone saying otherwise just isnt paying attention.
Gohan
10-12-2022, 06:53 PM
Jason Terry was better than Mo Williams.
And there are 10 other players on team and a coaching staff. Next.
Youre just saying this bs because mavs ended up winning the championship. He’s actually right for once, lebron fans are full of excuses
ShawkFactory
10-13-2022, 08:40 AM
Youre just saying this bs because mavs ended up winning the championship. He’s actually right for once, lebron fans are full of excuses
He played for the hawks for 5 years and was a 20/5 guy one year and a sniper. Saw him many times before Lebron even came into the league. But unfortunately he’s now someone that isn’t mentioned without Lebron, or is only mentioned because of him.
He also frequently stepped up in the playoffs. I think he had 30 in game 7 against the spurs in 2006. Also had 22/4 in the finals that year.
Always liked him.
3ba11
10-13-2022, 03:11 PM
Jason Terry played for the hawks for 5 years and was a 20/5 guy one year and a sniper. Saw him many times before Lebron even came into the league.
22/6/5 and 1st team defense - Larry Hughes - Jason Terry never did that..
So Lebron played with:
* 17/6 guy (Mo)
* 22/5 all-defender (Hughes)
* 18/9 and 2x all-star (Zydrunas)
* 22/9 and 2x all-star (Jamison)..
So Lebron had a lot of "Terry-caliber" players on his team but the thread title was only long enough to include "mo"..
Ultimately, the historical record shows that before the decision, Lebron's teams from 06-10' had better defenses and more scoring options than the 1st three-peat Bulls (only the 7th ranked defense and 1 go-to player on offense)
ShawkFactory
10-13-2022, 03:14 PM
You know who else was a 20/5 guy?
22/6/5 and 1st team defense - Larry Hughes - Jason Terry never did that..
So Lebron played with:
* 17/6 guy (Mo)
* 22/5 all-defender (Hughes)
* 18/9 and 2x all-star (Zydrunas)
* 22/9 and 2x all-star (Jamison)..
So Lebron had a lot of "Terry-caliber" players on his team but the thread title was only long enough to include "mo"..
Ultimately, the historical record shows that before the decision, Lebron's teams from 06-10' had better defenses and more scoring options than the 1st three-peat Bulls (only the 7th ranked defense)
Larry Hughes and Jason Terry are completely different players... and have nothing to do with each other.
Thank you for proving my point:
But unfortunately he’s now someone that isn’t mentioned without Lebron, or is only mentioned because of him.
3ba11
10-13-2022, 03:19 PM
Larry Hughes and Jason Terry are completely different players... and have nothing to do with each other.
Thank you for proving my point:
You proved the thread objective by showing that Lebron had many "Terry-caliber" teammates at sidekick like Mo, Hughes, Zydrunas, or Jamison, yet he couldn't win shit because his skillset lacks the teammate development, fits and brand to win organically like Dirk did (expert jumpshootr that promotes a better brand of ball to grow teammates, chemistry and win organically).
Heck, Lebron had Mo and Jamison in 2010, while also having a reputed defense, a 7-year organic league favorite, and a conference that was going to be wide open for the next decade - Lebron somehow thought this scenario was too tough and he needed to team-hop around... lol.. a frightened, coddled, fraud...
ShawkFactory
10-13-2022, 03:29 PM
You proved the thread objective by showing that Lebron had many "Terry-caliber" teammates at sidekick like Mo, Hughes, Zydrunas, or Jamison, yet he couldn't win shit because his skillset lacks the teammate development, fits and brand to win organically like Dirk did (expert jumpshootr that promotes a better brand of ball to grow teammates, chemistry and win organically).
Heck, Lebron had Mo and Jamison in 2010, while also having a reputed defense, a 7-year organic league favorite, and a conference that was going to be wide open for the next decade - Lebron somehow thought this scenario was too tough and he needed to team-hop around... lol.. a frightened, coddled, fraud...
I said that Jason Terry was a better player than Mo Williams. Similar levels, sure. But Terry was better. Mentally tougher. Better in big moments.
Then I went in to how I actually like Jason Terry because he was a Hawk for 5 years and while streaky, was capable of going off, especially in those aforementioned big moments. And thus was fun to watch.
I also said that a team has 12 players and a coaching staff. Not a best player and a sidekick.
SouBeachTalents
10-13-2022, 03:44 PM
I said that Jason Terry was a better player than Mo Williams. Similar levels, sure. But Terry was better. Mentally tougher. Better in big moments.
Then I went in to how I actually like Jason Terry because he was a Hawk for 5 years and while streaky, was capable of going off, especially in those aforementioned big moments. And thus was fun to watch.
I also said that a team has 12 players and a coaching staff. Not a best player and a sidekick.
Basketball is entirely comprised of first & second option ppg, nothing else affects the outcome of a basketball game.
3ba11
10-13-2022, 03:46 PM
I said that Jason Terry was a better player than Mo Williams. Similar levels, sure. But Terry was better. Mentally tougher. Better in big moments.
Mo never had the opportunity to be the 1st option on a 25-win team like Terry, or Mo might've averaged 25+
So your evidence about Terry's career in Atlanta is void...
Regarding the playoffs - Terry benefitted by playing within a better brand of ball that gave him better opportunity, while Mo suffered in a paper tiger brand that got exposed in the playoffs - that's on Lebron-ball..
Expert jumpshooters like Curry, Dirk and MJ put the ball in teammates hands and then bail them out if needed - this elevates teammates, while Lebron reduces teamamtes to spot-up roles.. So Dirk and MJ elevated Terry and Pippen, while Lebron failed to do that with Mo.. Btw, Jordan still won even when Pippen played worse than Mo did against Orlando.
And since Lebron is being compared to Jordan, he shouldn't need a sidekick to have big moments or be mentally tough because Pippen certainly wasn't.. Jordan could carry the clutch so it didn't matter that Kukoc was preferred over Pippen in the 2nd half and outscored Pippen in the 4th and clutch time of entire playoff runs.
ShawkFactory
10-13-2022, 03:52 PM
Mo never had the opportunity to be the 1st option on a 25-win team like Terry, or Mo might've averaged 25+
He was the second option on a 26 win team the year before joining Lebron though :lol
Literally wasn't good enough to be a first option on the 3rd worst team in the league.
So yea...there's your evidence. Thanks bro
SouBeachTalents
10-13-2022, 03:55 PM
He was the second option on a 26 win team the year before joining Lebron though :lol
Literally wasn't good enough to be a first option on the 3rd worst team in the league.
So yea...there's your evidence. Thanks bro
Yeesh, self inflicted defeat there :lol
ShawkFactory
10-13-2022, 04:02 PM
Yeesh, self inflicted defeat there :lol
:lol
Goalpost movement incoming.
3ba11
10-15-2022, 12:24 AM
He was the second option on a 26 win team the year before joining Lebron though :lol
Literally wasn't good enough to be a first option on the 3rd worst team in the league.
So yea...there's your evidence. Thanks bro
Michael Redd was a badass so I don't know what your point is
Redd would've been 1st option over Terry too
Mo averaged 17/6 as 2nd option before joining Lebron, which is better than Terry's 2nd option stats, as the OP shows.. Mo was an all-star, while Dirk won without one
these jordan stans literally singlehandedly prove that lebron is the GOAT
jordan's career is a joke compared the standards that they use :oldlol:
stockton and hornacek my ass :oldlol:
iguodala and kawhi are BY FAR better than every single defender that mj ever went up against :roll:
its such a massive gap that I cant understate how laughable it is :roll:
Michael Redd was a badass so I don't know what your point is
Redd would've been 1st option over Terry too
Mo averaged 17/6 as 2nd option before joining Lebron, which is better than Terry's 2nd option stats, as the OP shows.. Mo was an all-star, while Dirk won without one
michael jordan was ringless without a bulls cast that was so stacked they could win 55-games while jordan was suspended
mo williams and the cavs couldnt even win 20-games when they lost leGOAT
you lost that argument 3ball. just give it up. just like you should give up every argument.
history will remember scottie pippen as the better player when compared to mo ****ing williams
everyone here already knows that you are mentally ill. this is the most undeniable proof of your status as a mentally ill person. the fact that you still argue that mo williams is better than, or comparable to pippen.
warriorfan
10-15-2022, 06:53 AM
apu melting hard
:roll:
https://i.postimg.cc/k5pXdN5h/Rivalry-Decade.jpg
ShawkFactory
10-15-2022, 11:17 AM
Michael Redd was a badass so I don't know what your point is
Redd would've been 1st option over Terry too
Mo averaged 17/6 as 2nd option before joining Lebron, which is better than Terry's 2nd option stats, as the OP shows.. Mo was an all-star, while Dirk won without one
First option on a 25 win team..second option on a 26 win team. Hmmm. Sometimes the impact goes beyond the numbers, ya know? As I described previously (clutch moments, defense, intensity, etc). Mo was not good enough to be the first option on one of the worst teams in the league. If Redd was such a badass, and Mo was so good, they would have won more than 26 games.
Donovan Mitchell has scored 5-6 more ppg than Jimmy Butler the last couple years, with similar assist numbers. You taking Mitchell? Exactly.
ralph_i_el
10-15-2022, 01:36 PM
Playing with Dirk was really a huge boost for any guard who could run PnR/P well.
3ba11
10-15-2022, 02:25 PM
. If Redd was such a badass, and Mo was so good, they would have won more than 26 games.
The same reason Lebron missed the playoffs with all-stars in 2005 - inexperience - or 2019 and 2022 - bad fit.
Remember - Mo didn't join a good team in 2009 - he joined a bummy, 45-win team that he MADE good by teaching everyone for the first time how Lebron's game needs elite shooting help.. Mo improved the Cavs 21 wins by being superior across the board than 1990 Pippen {PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency... and ahead-of-his-time spacing)
Donovan Mitchell has scored 5-6 more ppg than Jimmy Butler the last couple years, with similar assist numbers. You taking Mitchell? Exactly.
Horrible analogy that doesn't fit
Pippen was a secondary producer like Iggy, not a dominant player like Butler that goes toe -to-to with the best players in the league
ShawkFactory
10-15-2022, 03:18 PM
Predicted goalpost movement indeed.
I’m not comparing Jimmy Butler to Pippen. I’m comparing him to Donovan Mitchell. Pippen was not a part of the discussion at all.
It IS amusing to me that you seemingly forgot about the actual discussion to bring up one of the 3 things you know how to talk about.
3ba11
12-08-2022, 03:36 PM
just a quick reminder
AirBonner
12-08-2022, 03:38 PM
No Pip no chip. (Reminder)
Hey Yo
12-08-2022, 03:44 PM
Because they are the kings of excuses.
Says the guy who makes excuses for Jordan's multiple quit jobs.
3ba11
07-07-2023, 01:40 AM
09' Mo Williams vs #4 SRS Magic........ 18 on 38%...... #3 team defense
89' Scot Pippen vs #1 SRS Cavs'......... 15 on 40%.... #11 team defense
97' Scot Pippen vs #4 SRS Heat..'....... 16 on 39%...... #4 team defense
98' Scot Pippen vs #4 SRS Pacers'....... 17 on 39%...... #9 team defense
98' Scot Pippen vs #3 SRS Jazz'.......... 16 on 41%...... #9 team defense
96-98' Pippen entire playoffs............... 18 on 41%...... #1, #4, #9 defenses
TLDR: Jordan beat better teams than the 09' Magic with worse defenses than the 09' Cavs and less offensive help
Again, great shooters and offensive players allow GM's to fill out the team with cheap defenders, so guys like Mo and Curry actually give teams better defenses than bricklayers like Pippen, who require expensive offensive help.. Pippen needed guys like Kukoc, Kerr and Paxson, who couldn't play defense.
https://media.tenor.com/zdFtiktD6-wAAAAS/accomplished-job.gif
this ***** said scottie pippen and mo williams
https://media.tenor.com/_RXvBoRx9xkAAAAd/idi-amin-laugh.gif
https://media.tenor.com/_RXvBoRx9xkAAAAd/idi-amin-laugh.gif
https://media.tenor.com/_RXvBoRx9xkAAAAd/idi-amin-laugh.gif
^^^^ For the record, this was the post where red1 threw his hands up in defeat
PejaTheSerbSnip
07-07-2023, 02:57 AM
^^^^ For the record, this was the post where red1 threw his hands up in defeat
Stop bumping old threads and make sure my clothes are ironed for the morning. Thanks.
Where do you see threads about giving James a pass other than in your head?
Lebron was terrible in that series, but people underestimate how good Dallas was. They SWEPT the former champs with Kobe and were like a 60win team. It's not like Miami lost to some lucky 8th seed...
tpols
07-07-2023, 08:41 AM
Playing with Dirk was really a huge boost for any guard who could run PnR/P well.
There's nobody Dirk wouldn't fit with due to his off ball capability and extreme unselfishness.
Old Dirk sonned Kobe, Pau, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Lebron, Wade and Bosh all back to back to back with Terry as is only all star offensive player and when we say star he was barely that historically... just like Mo.
Jimmy Rustler
07-07-2023, 09:45 AM
But most people DON'T give him a pass. Which is why Jordan is the overwhelming consensus GOAT.
Only the few Bronie fluffers make excuses for his epic chokes.
1987_Lakers
07-07-2023, 09:48 AM
Stop bumping old threads and make sure my clothes are ironed for the morning. Thanks.
:roll:
Peja has taken 3ball's soul.
kawhileonard2
07-09-2023, 09:27 PM
He had Ben Wallace as well, the only allstar on a team that won it all.
Jimmy Rustler
07-09-2023, 10:34 PM
Fact is, LeShrivel had more help than pretty much every other super star. Funny how when he didn't have a stacked super team (e.g. before he made the "decision" to join up with Wade and Bosh), he won diddley squat.
ArbitraryWater
07-09-2023, 11:44 PM
because Dirk was an exception.
An exception isnt the standard.
Why do you give Kobe a pass for not winning one series in 3 years with Odom?
warriorfan
07-10-2023, 06:56 AM
If Mo Williams was on the Mavs we wouldn’t hear the end of it about how he’s such a legit player,
when he’s on Bron’s team it’s all about how much he sucks as they attempt to scapegoat
:roll:
amazing :lol
John8204
07-10-2023, 11:24 AM
Fact is, LeShrivel had more help than pretty much every other super star. Funny how when he didn't have a stacked super team (e.g. before he made the "decision" to join up with Wade and Bosh), he won diddley squat.
How many players do you consider superstars in the history of the NBA?
ShawkFactory
07-10-2023, 11:29 AM
If Mo Williams was on the Mavs we wouldn’t hear the end of it about how he’s such a legit player,
when he’s on Bron’s team it’s all about how much he sucks as they attempt to scapegoat
:roll:
amazing :lol
Mo Williams had a career long tendency to shrink in the playoffs. Jason Terry was the opposite.
They’re similar level players in a vacuum but if one guy is better in big moments then that’s the one you choose, no?
tpols
07-10-2023, 12:19 PM
Mo Williams had a career long tendency to shrink in the playoffs. Jason Terry was the opposite.
They’re similar level players in a vacuum but if one guy is better in big moments then that’s the one you choose, no?
How much of that was Dirks influence though? JT and Dirk used to spam PnR and pick and pop with Dirk being the off ball screener. He enhanced and complimented his game in that way.
Doesn't MO have a 50 point game under his belt? They were similar talents.
ShawkFactory
07-10-2023, 12:59 PM
How much of that was Dirks influence though? JT and Dirk used to spam PnR and pick and pop with Dirk being the off ball screener. He enhanced and complimented his game in that way.
Doesn't MO have a 50 point game under his belt? They were similar talents.
Who knows? What we do know is that Terry stepped his game up in the playoffs and Mo did not. He's one of the few people I've seen with a higher 3pt% in the playoffs.
I've conceded that they are similar talents. But similar talents doesn't mean same effectiveness. Look at Mo's performance in the playoffs without Lebron. Really really bad.
Terry was just more of a gamer, even in his Hawks days. I don't really need numbers to make my argument, but the numbers back up what I'm saying too.
3ba11
07-10-2023, 01:39 PM
Who knows?
Even if Terry played the same alongside Lebron that he played alongside Dirk, we know that Lebron never won with a Finals with a sidekick getting 18 and no playmaking with zero blocks and not a franchise player like Terry.. Wade was a franchise player that averaged 20 with good playmaking and a menace defensively in the 2013 Finals (1.9 SPG and 1.3 BPG).. Night and day
Whenever Lebron had an ordinary cast with non-franchise guys at sidekick like Ingram, Mo, Hughes, Zydrunas, or Jamison, he lost and all those sidekicks played far below their capacity - Terry would follow this trend because he's the same caliber as these guys.
We saw Hughes play well in the 2005 playoffs (Terry-caliber or better) but then crater alongside Lebron.. This was a trend for Lebron's entire career - teammates played far better elsewhere.. They won titles with him but they also won titles and conferences without him (Wade, KCP, Love).
In addition to Lebron never winning a Finals with a sidekick of Terry's caliber or production level, Lebron has a history of lowering the stats of playoff gamers like Terry, Hughes, Ingram, Bosh, and more - teams adjust in the playoffs and realize these guys are just spot-up shooters, so they're shut down accordingly.. Of course Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with guys that are getting shut down (weak scoring & efficiency), so a title is impossible with Terry whether he gets shut down or not.
ShawkFactory
07-10-2023, 02:02 PM
Even if Terry played the same alongside Lebron that he played alongside Dirk, we know that Lebron never won with a Finals with a sidekick getting 18 and no playmaking with zero blocks and not a franchise player like Terry.. Wade was a franchise player that averaged 20 with good playmaking and a menace defensively in the 2013 Finals (1.9 SPG and 1.3 BPG).. Night and day
Whenever Lebron had an ordinary cast with non-franchise guys at sidekick like Ingram, Mo, Hughes, Zydrunas, or Jamison, he lost and all those sidekicks played far below their capacity - Terry would follow this trend because he's the same caliber as these guys.
We saw Hughes play well in the 2005 playoffs (Terry-caliber or better) but then crater alongside Lebron.. This was a trend for Lebron's entire career - teammates played far better elsewhere.. They won titles with him but they also won titles and conferences without him (Wade, KCP, Love).
In addition to Lebron never winning a Finals with a sidekick of Terry's caliber or production level, Lebron has a history of lowering the stats of playoff gamers like Terry, Hughes, Ingram, Bosh, and more - teams adjust in the playoffs and realize these guys are just spot-up shooters, so they're shut down accordingly.. Of course Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with guys that are getting shut down (weak scoring & efficiency), so a title is impossible with Terry whether he gets shut down or not.
Really..?
Also, didn't Hughes have surgery on his hand toward the end of 06 and was rushed back? He was pulled out of the Pistons series because he wasn't effective. The Cavs actually went 3-1 in games without Hughes in that series. 0-3 with him.
Either way, my point was about Mo vs Terry specifically. Not trying to get into the same argument yet again about Hughes (i.e I've said all of the above multiple times before), or anyone else.
3ba11
07-10-2023, 02:15 PM
Really..?
Also, didn't Hughes have surgery on his hand toward the end of 06 and was rushed back? He was pulled out of the Pistons series because he wasn't effective. The Cavs actually went 3-1 in games without Hughes in that series. 0-3 with him.
Either way, my point was about Mo vs Terry specifically. Not trying to get into the same argument yet again about Hughes (i.e I've said all of the above multiple times before), or anyone else.
Hughes 2005 Playoffs
20 ppg
16.6 PER
great defense
^^^ This isn't far off from Terry's 2011 run and it's easily ahead of many other Terry runs before 2011
So Hughes could've developed into a boss under Lebron like Terry did under Dirk.. Unfortunately, Lebron can't score 40 while the ball moves like Dirk can, so it's hard for guys to grow while Lebron is going off - guys must stand in the corner while Lebron is going off..
And they have to stand in the corner more than they do alongside regular point guards because Lebron starts at forward, so his ball-dominance is abnormal for his position and therefore more spot-up-inducing
ShawkFactory
07-10-2023, 02:26 PM
Hughes 2005 Playoffs
20 ppg
16.6 PER
great defense
^^^ This isn't far off from Terry's 2011 run and it's easily ahead of many other Terry runs before 2011
So Hughes could've developed into a boss under Lebron like Terry did under Dirk.. Unfortunately, Lebron can't score 40 while the ball moves like Dirk can, so it's hard for guys to grow while Lebron is going off - guys must stand in the corner while Lebron is going off..
And they have to stand in the corner more than they do alongside regular point guards because Lebron starts at forward, so his ball-dominance is abnormal for his position and therefore more spot-up-inducing
What an incredibly analytical breakdown of Larry Hughes's 2005 playoff run :roll:
3ba11
07-10-2023, 02:55 PM
What an incredibly analytical breakdown of Larry Hughes's 2005 playoff run :roll:
I was trying to make it easy to read... :oldlol:
The point was to show that Terry wasn't always a playoff boss - he had many runs that were weaker than Hughes in 2005, so Hughes could've grown into a playoff boss just like Terry did..
And it's telling that Hughes did well in the playoffs alongside an expert jumpshooter like Arenas, while Ingram thrived in the playoffs next to McCullum, but Lebron's ball-dominance cratered Mo... these aren't the only examples - it's a trend that players seem to thrive alongside expert jumpshooters like Arenas, McCullum, Curry, MJ, Kobe, Dirk, Kawhi - you get the point
ShawkFactory
07-10-2023, 03:06 PM
I was trying to make it easy to read... :oldlol:
The point was to show that Terry wasn't always a playoff boss - he had many runs that were weaker than Hughes in 2005, so Hughes could've grown into a playoff boss just like Terry did..
And it's telling that Hughes did well in the playoffs alongside an expert jumpshooter like Arenas, while Ingram thrived in the playoffs next to McCullum, but Lebron's ball-dominance cratered Mo... these aren't the only examples - it's a trend that players seem to thrive alongside expert jumpshooters like Arenas, McCullum, Curry, MJ, Kobe, Dirk, Kawhi - you get the point
Lol no you were hoping that the efficiency would be ignored. More importantly you were hoping that his last series with the Wizards were he shot like 30% against the Heat would be ignored. Can’t have ISH thinking that maybe he was an inefficient shot-jacker all along.
3ba11
07-10-2023, 10:38 PM
Lol no you were hoping that the efficiency would be ignored. More importantly you were hoping that his last series with the Wizards were he shot like 30% against the Heat would be ignored. Can’t have ISH thinking that maybe he was an inefficient shot-jacker all along.
Yeah but Terry had many bad series before 2011 and simply grew to the level he reached in 2011..
So the growth the Hughes showed alongside Arenas was significant - he reached a level that was far superior to 90' Pippen based on literally everything (PPG, APG, efficiency, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, all-defense), but cratered under Lebron just like Ingram, Kuzma and even established players like Bosh, Love, or Jamison.. These guys weren't allowed to grow alongside Lebron the way Terry grew alongside Dirk because Lebron reduced them to spot-up shooter.
Again, it's Lebron's abnormal ball-dominance (hold-time, assisted rate) for his size/position that imposes spot-up roles (decreases teammate APG and increases their assisted rate).. These spot-up roles don't develop teammates, fits or strategic capacity/coaching, so Lebron has perennial underdogs and Finals losers regardless of cast
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