Ranking Best NBA PGs Of All Time

[WhiteKyrie]

I don’t consider Oscar (a SF playing Point-ish) or West (a SG playing Point-ish) or Harden (a SG playing Point-ish) or LeBron (a SF playing Point-ish) as point guards. With that said, FOR ME:

1) Magic
2) Curry
3) Zeke
4) CP3
5) Stockton
6) Nash
7) Kidd
8) GP
9) Westbrick
10) Cousy

Agreed?

[1987_Lakers]

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Big O
4. CP3
5. Nash
6. Stockton
7. Kidd
8. Walt Frazier
9. Isiah Thomas
10. Bob Cousy

[WhiteKyrie]

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Big O
4. CP3
5. Nash
6. Stockton
7. Kidd
8. Walt Frazier
9. Isiah Thomas
10. Bob Cousy
Lol at #9

[SouBeachTalents]

I won't count the other 3, but Oscar should be in this discussion imo. I'd prob go

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar
4. CP3
5. Isiah
6. Stockton
7. Nash
8. Kidd
9. Payton
10. Frazier

[1987_Lakers]

Lol at #9

Not a big Isiah fan.

[WhiteKyrie]

I won't count the other 3, but Oscar should be in this discussion imo. I'd prob go

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar
4. CP3
5. Isiah
6. Stockton
7. Nash
8. Kidd
9. Payton
10. Frazier

On what grounds do you have CP3 over Zeke?

Zeke has two rings, very easily could’ve been three. And had a Finals MVP.

Selflessly sacrificed his own personal stats to the betterment of a team (a true PG) that ended legendary power houses like Bird’s Celtics and Magic’s Showtime Lakers. And ultimately groomed the Goat’s dynasty for the next decade.

Was basically like a combination of Iverson, Kyrie and CP3. In an era far more physical and especially more difficult for perimeter guys, let alone small guards.

Because they’re like the same player, except Zeke wasn’t a choker, was physically and mentally tougher to play through injury. And was a higher end scorer more akin to Kyrie compared to CP3, especially in big games.

Not being snotty, just odd the disrespect for two known LeBron Stans before me seemingly underrating Zeke a little (you) or egregiously (1987). Genuinely curious. Is it a means to demean MJ’s era even though he played against the two best PGs ever until Curry’s career popped off?

[Xiao Yao You]

Not a big Isiah fan.

me either but he's one of the best big game players I saw

[SouBeachTalents]

On what grounds do you have CP3 over Zeke? Because they’re like the same player, except Zeke wasn’t a choker, was physically and mentally tougher to play through injury. And was a higher end scorer more akin to Kyrie compared to CP3, especially in big games. Not being snotty, just odd the disrespect for two known LeBron Stans before me seemingly underrating Zeke a little (you) or egregiously (1987)
The fact you consider ranking CP3 over Isiah by literally one spot to be this outrageous only shows you underrate CP3 a HELL of a lot more than I underrate Isiah :lol I think top 5 is a very reasonable ranking for him, and I'll cede Isiah was more clutch than CP3, but I just feel CP3 is the better overall basketball player, flaws and all, and that has nothing to do with LeBron, Jordan, anybody.

[1987_Lakers]

On what grounds do you have CP3 over Zeke? Because they’re like the same player, except Zeke wasn’t a choker, was physically and mentally tougher to play through injury. And was a higher end scorer more akin to Kyrie compared to CP3, especially in big games. Not being snotty, just odd the disrespect for two known LeBron Stans before me seemingly underrating Zeke a little (you) or egregiously (1987)
No, CP3 was much better all-around.

And Isiah was far from this "clutch" performer you think of. He has one of the biggest chokes ever (steal by Bird in '87). He had a shit '88 Finals but just because he played great for 1 game on a bad ankle, that gets forgotten. Usually shit the bed vs the Bulls/MJ in the playoffs, it was usually their defense to why they won those series. Not saying he was a flat out choker, played very good in the 2 Finals he won, (beat a lottery Lakers team in '89 though, lol).

[WhiteKyrie]

The fact you consider ranking CP3 over Isiah by literally one spot to be this outrageous only shows you underrate CP3 a HELL of a lot more than I underrate Isiah :lol I think top 5 is a very reasonable ranking for him, and I'll cede Isiah was more clutch than CP3, but I just feel CP3 is the better overall basketball player, flaws and all, and that has nothing to do with LeBron, Jordan, anybody.
Re read my modified post. Not egregious in your case. 9th? Remedial levels of egregious.

[L.Kizzle]

I don’t consider Oscar (a SF playing Point-ish) or West (a SG playing Point-ish) or Harden (a SG playing Point-ish) or LeBron (a SF playing Point-ish) as point guards. With that said, FOR ME:

1) Magic
2) Curry
3) Zeke
4) CP3
5) Stockton
6) Nash
7) Kidd
8) GP
9) Westbrick
10) Cousy

Agreed?
Why is Magic a PG is Oscar isn't. Magic was bigger than a lot of PFs from his day

[WhiteKyrie]

Why is Magic a PG is Oscar isn't. Magic was bigger than a lot of PFs from his day

Irregardless of height, Oscar was more of a scorer, and play finisher than Magic. Magic made attempts at guarding PGs :oldlol: even if he got lit up. Such a horrendous defender.

Shout out to Sleepy Floyd. :roll: :roll: :roll:

That’s my rationale, broski.

[1987_Lakers]

Irregardless of height, Oscar was more of a scorer, and play finisher than Magic. Magic made attempts at guarding PGs :oldlol: even if he got lit up. Such a horrendous defender.

Shout out to Sleepy Floyd. :roll: :roll: :roll:

That’s my rationale, broski.

Oscar was basically the only playmaker on those Royals teams, look at their #2 assist guy in '64, Jerry Lucas (a big man) at 2.4 apg. Oscar was their point guard, I've never met anyone who has argued otherwise.

[FultzNationRISE]

Even tho I dont consider Lebron a point giard, I do consider him the best point guard of all time.

Because he is a small forward, thats how he’s listed and lines up. But he also happens to be the best point guard ever even if they dont play him there. Hes still factually the best at it.


Hope that answers your question.

[Round Mound]

1-Magic
2-Big O
3-Steph
4-Isiah
5-Stockton
6-Fraizer
7-Kidd
8-Nash
9-Paul
10-Cousy

HMs: DJ, Cheeks, KJ etc in no order.

[1987_Lakers]

No, CP3 was much better all-around.

And Isiah was far from this "clutch" performer you think of. He has one of the biggest chokes ever (steal by Bird in '87). He had a shit '88 Finals but just because he played great for 1 game on a bad ankle, that gets forgotten. Usually shit the bed vs the Bulls/MJ in the playoffs, it was usually their defense to why they won those series. Not saying he was a flat out choker, played very good in the 2 Finals he won, (beat a lottery Lakers team in '89 though, lol).

To add to this, I think my biggest gripe against Isiah is his overall scoring efficiency (which is below average for his era), and his lack of all-around game. Isiah was known to have a streaky jumper his entire career and wasn't known for his defense. Excellent playmaker and one of the best finishers ever for a man his size, but his lack of all-around game is why I rank him low. I love versatility.

[warriorfan]

curry is better than magic

magic is nuch bigger but what did he do with that on the defensive end? nothing.

he was probably more of a defensive liability then curry and curry elevated offense just as much worst case and it’s easily arguable more. magic needed a goat to win chips, curry needed klay thompson. if you guys want to boost lebron as the goat then you have to give more credit to curry. it’s a sliding scale, you can’t say curry is worse then magic and have lebron your goat. doesn’t work that way. curry did less with more and beat better while transforming the modern game as we know it. if you are big on lebron then curry is goat pg, the fumers can’t have it both ways

[FultzNationRISE]

curry is better than magic

magic is nuch bigger but what did he do with that on the defensive end? nothing.

he was probably more of a defensive liability then curry and curry elevated offense just as much worst case and it’s easily arguable more. magic needed a goat to win chips, curry needed klay thompson. if you guys want to boost lebron as the goat then you have to give more credit to curry. it’s a sliding scale, you can’t say curry is worse then magic and have lebron your goat. doesn’t work that way. curry did less with more and beat better while transforming the modern game as we know it. if you are big on lebron then curry is goat pg, the fumers can’t have it both ways

“Big Magic Johnson,” what did he ever do? Can somebody tell me?

I mean yeah he was a business man, and theres his charity work, but… he has AIDS. :confusedshrug:

[WhiteKyrie]

curry is better than magic

magic is nuch bigger but what did he do with that on the defensive end? nothing.

he was probably more of a defensive liability then curry and curry elevated offense just as much worst case and it’s easily arguable more. magic needed a goat to win chips, curry needed klay thompson. if you guys want to boost lebron as the goat then you have to give more credit to curry. it’s a sliding scale, you can’t say curry is worse then magic and have lebron your goat. doesn’t work that way. curry did less with more and beat better while transforming the modern game as we know it. if you are big on lebron then curry is goat pg, the fumers can’t have it both ways

He was an inferior defender than everyone on my list. Especially at his position. With the exception of Westbrick. :oldlol: apart from him jumping passing lanes for steals time to time.

[SouBeachTalents]

He was an inferior defender than everyone on my list. Especially at his position. With the exception of Westbrick. :oldlol: apart from him jumping passing lanes for steals time to time.
Nash was definitely a worse defender than Magic.

[WhiteKyrie]

Nash was definitely a worse defender than Magic.

I don’t think so. Unless you count rebounds as part of defense.

They both are putrid. I did forget about Nash. Cousy, Westbrick, Nash and Magic are by far the worst defenders in that top ten PG list.

A lot of those guys however on the list were fantastic defenders at their position. Stockton, GP, Kidd, CP3, were fantastic defensively. In GP’s case other worldly.

[John8204]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Curry
4. Stockton
5. CPIII
6. Frazier
7. Kidd
8. Isiah
9. Archibald
10. Cousy
11. Payton
12. Nash
13. Moncrief
14. Parker
15. D Johnson
16. Westbrook
17. Monroe
18. K. Johnson
19. Hardaway
20. Kyrie
21. Price
22. Jackson
23. Goodrich
24. Bing
25.Wilkens
26. Cheeks
27. D. Williams
28. Rondo
29. Billups
30. S. Martin

[1987_Lakers]

I don’t think so. Unless you count rebounds as part of defense.

They both are putrid. I did forget about Nash. Cousy, Westbrick, Nash and Magic are by far the worst defenders in that top ten PG list.

A lot of those guys however on the list were fantastic defenders at their position. Stockton, GP, Kidd, CP3, were fantastic defensively. In GP’s case other worldly.

Magic was actually an OK defender early in his career, both Nash & Magic were horrible at that end when they peaked as players. Funny enough, both Magic & Nash to me are the GOAT passers, I don't think anyone created more open looks for teammates than those two. Both have a good case to be the GOAT PG if you are only looking at scoring/passing, (Oscar wasn't on their level in terms of passing despite what the numbers say).

And to me Kidd is the GOAT defensive PG, not Payton. Just a better help/team and off-ball defender than Payton. People sometimes just judge defense by strictly man defense.

[1987_Lakers]

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Curry
4. Stockton
5. CPIII
6. Frazier
7. Kidd
8. Isiah
9. Archibald
10. Cousy
11. Payton
12. Nash
13. Moncrief
14. Parker
15. D Johnson
16. Westbrook
17. Monroe
18. K. Johnson
19. Hardaway
20. Kyrie
21. Price
22. Jackson
23. Goodrich
24. Bing
25.Wilkens
26. Cheeks
27. D. Williams
28. Rondo
29. Billups
30. S. Martin

:biggums:

[Smook A.]

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar
4. West
5. Isiah
6. CP3
7. Stockton
8. Nash
9. Kidd
10. Westbrook

HM: Glove

[John8204]

:biggums:

Can't put a PG in the top ten without a finals appearance, especially based on the talent he played with.

[Smook A.]

Can't put a PG in the top ten without a finals appearance, especially based on the talent he played with.

Who says you need a finals appearance to be considered top 10 in your position? Guys like T-Mac, Vince Carter, and Nique are all considered top 10 in their position, and none of them made the finals. I don't count T-Mac because he was a benchwarmer in the Spurs' 2013 Finals run.

[Hakeem Olajuwon]

1a Magic - on my NBA Mt Rushmore, greatest vision and passing
1b Curry - what he offers for the team at his position, no one else can
3 Big O - phenomenal 2-way player
4 Isiah Thomas - best small floor general offering 20pts+10assists
5 Stockton - most durable pure point guard, P&R master
6 CP3 - my favourite pure PG of modern era. If he had rings/FMVP he would be higher
7 Kidd - his size, versatility and evolved skill set make him a complete guard who elevates him teammates
8 Nash - supreme shooter & playmaker. In the right system you would take Nash before some of the names above.
9 Frazier - 9 feels too low for this majestic two-way guard but he’s firmly in that 2nd tier of great PG’s
10 Cousy - his creativity & playstyle were monumental for his era and influential to the eras to follow

Just missing my top 10, but in no way a massive drop off of quality:
The Glove, Tiny, DJ

[John8204]

Who says you need a finals appearance to be considered top 10 in your position? Guys like T-Mac, Vince Carter, and Nique are all considered top 10 in their position, and none of them made the finals. I don't count T-Mac because he was a benchwarmer in the Spurs' 2013 Finals run.

Because every other PG did it(with less talent)..Nique is fringe top ten at his position and Vince and Mcgrady didn't even make the top 75

[WhiteKyrie]

Frazier over GP? Hell no. If MJ stayed retired, 1996 chip goes to Seattle.

[MadDogg]

First 5 look legit. Probably the same ranking I would have as well. CP3 vs Zeke is one of the best debates in basketball, in terms of all time rank.

[1987_Lakers]

Frazier over GP? Hell no. If MJ stayed retired, 1996 chip goes to Seattle.

So what? Frazier would still have an edge in rings. (If you discount GP's ring in '06 as a role player).

[HoopsNY]

Magic was actually an OK defender early in his career, both Nash & Magic were horrible at that end when they peaked as players. Funny enough, both Magic & Nash to me are the GOAT passers, I don't think anyone created more open looks for teammates than those two. Both have a good case to be the GOAT PG if you are only looking at scoring/passing, (Oscar wasn't on their level in terms of passing despite what the numbers say).

And to me Kidd is the GOAT defensive PG, not Payton. Just a better help/team and off-ball defender than Payton. People sometimes just judge defense by strictly man defense.

Not sure why you really feel this way. Here are some things to consider:

All-Defensive 1st Team

GP: 9x
Kidd: 4x

DPOY Awards

GP: 1x
Kidd: 0x

Top 5 DPOY Voting

GP: 6x
Kidd: 0x

Outside of GP's DPOY year, he had 4 other seasons where he finished 2nd or 3rd in DPOY voting. Kidd never finished higher than 8th in DPOY voting if I'm not mistaken. In addition, GP's prime years come when not only he had Kidd and Kobe in the league, but also Stockton, Blaylock, Christie, Dumars, and MJ. Defensively, I believe guards were better
pre-2002 than they were from 2002 onward.

But probably the most important aspect of this recognition is understanding that the league didn't allow the zone until 2001-02, therefore man defense was much more important prior. But even then, I'd give GP the advantage because he was great all around defensively and while Kidd was the better help defender, I don't think it offsets the gap in man defense given how great GP was in help defense himself.

[1987_Lakers]

Not sure why you really feel this way. Here are some things to consider:

All-Defensive 1st Team

GP: 9x
Kidd: 4x

DPOY Awards

GP: 1x
Kidd: 0x

Top 5 DPOY Voting

GP: 6x
Kidd: 0x

Outside of GP's DPOY year, he had 4 other seasons where he finished 2nd or 3rd in DPOY voting. Kidd never finished higher than 8th in DPOY voting if I'm not mistaken. In addition, GP's prime years come when not only he had Kidd and Kobe in the league, but also Stockton, Blaylock, Christie, Dumars, and MJ. Defensively, I believe guards were better
pre-2002 than they were from 2002 onward.

But probably the most important aspect of this recognition is understanding that the league didn't allow the zone until 2001-02, therefore man defense was much more important prior. But even then, I'd give GP the advantage because he was great all around defensively and while Kidd was the better help defender, I don't think it offsets the gap in man defense given how great GP was in help defense himself.

I don't take defensive accolades THAT serious considering they can be misleading. GP won DPOY in '96 despite D-Rob and Mutombo obviously being more impactful on that end.

You can make a claim that GP is the GOAT man defender from the PG spot, but Jason Kidd was better elsewhere, team, help, off-ball defense, defensive rebounding etc is where Kidd has an advantage.

I've also seen some advanced stats a while back that suggest Kidd was the more impactful defender, I haven't seen them recently, I will look more into it when I have time.

When GP's scoring rose once the 00's hit, his overall defensive became worse, yet he was still making All-Defensive First Teams when he probably shouldn't have. Im guessing alot of that has to do with the reputation he had.

[WhiteKyrie]

Kidd while a very good defender was never close to GP’s level. The goat defensive PG ever, wtf. 1987 has some really poor bball IQ. Especially when it pertains to certain players he’s just not strictly a fan of, the massive underrating in this thread alone.

[HoopsNY]

I don't take defensive accolades THAT serious considering they can be misleading. GP won DPOY in '96 despite D-Rob and Mutombo obviously being more impactful on that end.

That's fine, but that doesn't explain GP consistently being 1st-3rd in DPOY voting whereas Kidd was nowhere to be found.


You can make a claim that GP is the GOAT man defender from the PG spot, but Jason Kidd was better elsewhere, team, help, off-ball defense, defensive rebounding etc is where Kidd has an advantage.

As I said before, I agree Kidd has the edge, but I believe it to be just that, an edge. Kidd being better doesn't make up for the wide gap between them in man to man defense.


I've also seen some advanced stats a while back that suggest Kidd was the more impactful defender, I haven't seen them recently, I will look more into it when I have time.

Definitely curious about that. For example, when Kemp was traded in 1997, they added Vin Baker who wasn't a great defender, the team went from 6th in DRTG to 10th. That's not a huge drop off.

Compare that to when Antonio McDyess left Phoenix and went back to Denver, Phoenix went from 6th in DRTG to 19th.

Seattle in 2003 was 17th in DRTG. The following season without GP, they were 27th. The Suns were 2nd in DRTG in 2001, when Kidd left, they were 12th in 2002. The Lakers added GP in 2004, they went from 19th to 8th in DRTG. Basically, these drop-offs or increases are somewhat comparable.

I'm really not convinced that Kidd was better defensively. And I think the whole help defense thing is a result of the NBA banning illegal defense. This increased a player's ability to provide more help defense. This is why Kidd might be standing out more in your mind and also why you're favoring help defense.


When GP's scoring rose once the 00's hit, his overall defensive became worse, yet he was still making All-Defensive First Teams when he probably shouldn't have. Im guessing alot of that has to do with the reputation he had.

GP was a pretty solid defensive player up until 2002. After that he was not as impactful, but still very good. I'm not sure what makes you think he didn't deserve it in 2000-02. For example, Kidd was ahead of him in DRPM in 2001 and 2002, but GP was 2nd in DRPM amongst all PGs in 2000, whereas Kidd was 26th. The next season, GP was 12th and Kidd was 9th. Not a massive difference as opposed to the previous year.

[Xiao Yao You]

That's fine, but that doesn't explain GP consistently being 1st-3rd in DPOY voting whereas Kidd was nowhere to be found.



As I said before, I agree Kidd has the edge, but I believe it to be just that, an edge. Kidd being better doesn't make up for the wide gap between them in man to man defense.



Definitely curious about that. For example, when Kemp was traded in 1997, they added Vin Baker who wasn't a great defender, the team went from 6th in DRTG to 10th. That's not a huge drop off.

Compare that to when Antonio McDyess left Phoenix and went back to Denver, Phoenix went from 6th in DRTG to 19th.

Seattle in 2003 was 17th in DRTG. The following season without GP, they were 27th. The Suns were 2nd in DRTG in 2001, when Kidd left, they were 12th in 2002. The Lakers added GP in 2004, they went from 19th to 8th in DRTG. Basically, these drop-offs or increases are somewhat comparable.

I'm really not convinced that Kidd was better defensively. And I think the whole help defense thing is a result of the NBA banning illegal defense. This increased a player's ability to provide more help defense. This is why Kidd might be standing out more in your mind and also why you're favoring help defense.



GP was a pretty solid defensive player up until 2002. After that he was not as impactful, but still very good. I'm not sure what makes you think he didn't deserve it in 2000-02. For example, Kidd was ahead of him in DRPM in 2001 and 2002, but GP was 2nd in DRPM amongst all PGs in 2000, whereas Kidd was 26th. The next season, GP was 12th and Kidd was 9th. Not a massive difference as opposed to the previous year.

The Lakers improvement was more about Karl Malone than Payton I'd guess

[HoopsNY]

Kidd while a very good defender was never close to GP’s level. The goat defensive PG ever, wtf. 1987 has some really poor bball IQ. Especially when it pertains to certain players he’s just not strictly a fan of, the massive underrating in this thread alone.

I don't think 1987 has anything against GP. I think he has some recency bias. He's about 6 years younger than me I believe, so he probably saw more of Kidd than he did GP.

Also, the league banning illegal defense in 2001, thus opening up more zone defenses, has a lot to do with how we gauge perimeter players and wing defenders. That skews perception.

The problem is, what indication is there that GP was nowhere near Kidd as a help defender? In terms of impact, there isn't any. But we do know the gap is pretty wide where it comes to man to man defense.

For that reason, it's not reasonable to say that Kidd is clearly better just off of help defense alone.

[HoopsNY]

The Lakers improvement was more about Karl Malone than Payton I'd guess

Yea that's what I thought, too. Then I did some homework. Malone only played in 42 games. In the games he didn't play, the Lakers' defense fell off somewhat. But that also coincides with the time that Shaq and Kobe missed games. Shaq missed most of January, whereas Kobe missed two weeks in January, and Malone missed all of it.

[1987_Lakers]

Definitely curious about that. For example, when Kemp was traded in 1997, they added Vin Baker who wasn't a great defender, the team went from 6th in DRTG to 10th. That's not a huge drop off.


DBPM might have been the stat that suggests Jason Kidd was the more impactful defender. (Defensive box/plus minus)

From '95-'02, Gary Payton had a DBPM of +0.5 (He was actually a negative in this category in '01 & '02, which I suspected)

From '00-'08, Jason Kidd had a DBPM of +1.7

And if you want to talk about Defensive Win Shares (an estimate number of wins contributed by a player due to defense), Jason Kidd was higher in that stat as well, peaking at over 5 for three straight years (5.8 being the highest), GP peaked at 5 as well (5.6), but it was only for his '96 season.

Now check out Jason Kidd's team's DRTG
2000 Suns - 3rd
2001 Suns - 2nd
2002 Nets - 1st
2003 Nets - 1st
2004 Nets - 4th
2005 Nets - 7th
2006 Nets - 4th

This is despite not having alot of defensive talent around him.

Sonics had some really good defensive teams in the mid 90's and GP was a big reason for that, but we have to remember that he also played with an all-time great defensive guard in Nate McMillan and a very good defender in Kemp.

Payton's Team's DRTG from 1999-2002

1999 - #26
2000 - #15
2001 - #24
2002 - #17

Just something to think about.

[1987_Lakers]

Kidd while a very good defender was never close to GP’s level. The goat defensive PG ever, wtf. 1987 has some really poor bball IQ. Especially when it pertains to certain players he’s just not strictly a fan of, the massive underrating in this thread alone.

Says the guy who hasn't refuted any of my points in this thread. You just run away and come back hours later to insult instead of actually debating.

[tontoz]

Not a big Isiah fan.

Me neither. One of the.most overrated players I've ever seen.

[HoopsNY]

DBPM might have been the stat that suggests Jason Kidd was the more impactful defender. (Defensive box/plus minus)

From '95-'02, Gary Payton had a DBPM of +0.5 (He was actually a negative in this category in '01 & '02, which I suspected)

From '00-'08, Jason Kidd had a DBPM of +1.7

And if you want to talk about Defensive Win Shares (an estimate number of wins contributed by a player due to defense), Jason Kidd was higher in that stat as well, peaking at over 5 for three straight years (5.8 being the highest), GP peaked at 5 as well (5.6), but it was only for his '96 season.

Now check out Jason Kidd's team's DRTG
2000 Suns - 3rd
2001 Suns - 2nd
2002 Nets - 1st
2003 Nets - 1st
2004 Nets - 4th
2005 Nets - 7th
2006 Nets - 4th

This is despite not having alot of defensive talent around him.

Sonics had some really good defensive teams in the mid 90's and GP was a big reason for that, but we have to remember that he also played with an all-time great defensive guard in Nate McMillan and a very good defender in Kemp.

Payton's Team's DRTG from 1999-2002

1999 - #26
2000 - #15
2001 - #24
2002 - #17

Just something to think about.

This isn't a fair comparison IMO. For one, you're relying on data for Kidd beyond 2002, which isn't a fair overlap since GP's prime was essentially over by then. 2003-2007 were his down years and he had regressed considerably by then, whereas Kidd was still in his prime. 1997-02 overlaps for the both of them, and GP was unquestionably the better defender during those years.

In addition, you're utilizing DBPM. DBPM, as all of BPM, is a box score statistic. It doesn't really measure a player's defensive acumen, let alone a player's ability with help defense, which is what is in question.

Lastly, I don't think it's fair to use Seattle's DRTG from 1999-02 and compare what Kidd's teams did from 2000-06. GP's teammates were horrid defensively, unless you think guys like Brent Barry or Rashard Lewis were serviceable, let alone high quality defensively.

On the flip side, Kidd played with a lot of solid, if not gritty defenders. K-Mart and Richard Jefferson immediately come to mind, and in Phoenix he played with Cliff Robinson and Shawn Marion.

Marion is one of those guys who didn't see an All-Defensive selection simply because the forward position was stacked with great defenders. Artest, Brown, Bowen, Duncan, KG, Outlaw, Mason, etc were all in the league and competitors. IIRC, Marion was getting DPOY votes, but never received an All-Defensive selection.

Anyone who remembers the early 2000s remembers how great Marion was as a defensive player. But in an era of defense that saw a lot of solid bigs at the 4, then he basically got overlooked.

[HoopsNY]

Since you mentioned DPBM and DWS, fun fact, Marion in 2001 was 2nd in DWS and 11th in DBPM.

Kenyon Martin in 2003 was 7th in DWS. In 2004, he was 9th in DWS and 16th in DBPM.

[1987_Lakers]

This isn't a fair comparison IMO. For one, you're relying on data for Kidd beyond 2002, which isn't a fair overlap since GP's prime was essentially over by then. 2003-2007 were his down years and he had regressed considerably by then, whereas Kidd was still in his prime. 1997-02 overlaps for the both of them, and GP was unquestionably the better defender during those years.


Huh? I used data when both players were in their prime

[1987_Lakers]

On the flip side, Kidd played with a lot of solid, if not gritty defenders. K-Mart and Richard Jefferson immediately come to mind, and in Phoenix he played with Cliff Robinson and Shawn Marion.

Marion is one of those guys who didn't see an All-Defensive selection simply because the forward position was stacked with great defenders. Artest, Brown, Bowen, Duncan, KG, Outlaw, Mason, etc were all in the league and competitors. IIRC, Marion was getting DPOY votes, but never received an All-Defensive selection.

The '01 Nets with Kenyon Martin (2nd best defender on that Nets team during the Kidd era) were ranked #23 in defense.

The '02 Nets with the addition of Kidd jumped all the way to #1.

That right there shows you what type of impact he had.

I believe when Kidd left the Suns, Phoenix fell to an average defensive team as well.

[HoopsNY]

Huh? I used data when both players were in their prime

Some of the data*, but you threw in what Kidd's teams did post 2002. That skews the data because it expands the number of years while not incorporating previous years to equate it. 1999-02 is 4 seasons, 2000-06 is 7 seasons. It's arbitrary and doesn't account for teammates.

1999-02 isn't fair because GP's teammates were poor defensively while Kidd's were solid. You mentioned DWS and DBPM (box score stats but whatever), and off the bat he had names like Marion and K-Mart.

Here's another fun fact. Kidd was 11th in DPOY voting in 2001, tied with his teammate, Shawn Marion.

In 2003, K-Mart was 12th in DPOY voting, and the following year in 2004, he was 9th. Heck, Cliff Robinson was a teammate of Kidd who even by 2005 with GSW, he received DPOY voting.

All this proves, at least on a team level, is that Kidd had more help defensively than GP for the years in question.

[HoopsNY]

The '01 Nets with Kenyon Martin (2nd best defender on that Nets team during the Kidd era) were ranked #23 in defense.

The '02 Nets with the addition of Kidd jumped all the way to #1.

That right there shows you what type of impact he had.

I believe when Kidd left the Suns, Phoenix fell to an average defensive team as well.

Good point, but doesn't account for Kerry Kittles returning from injury. He was an upgrade defensively to Lucious Harris starting. And K-Mart was a rookie in 2001. He improved in 2002. They also added Richard Jefferson off the bench. Stephon Marbury was always a net negative, so the addition of Kidd is a major swing from low to high.

It's just not as simple as a plug and play of adding Kidd and magically they became a #1 defense. There were other factors too.

[1987_Lakers]

Good point, but doesn't account for Kerry Kittles returning from injury. He was an upgrade defensively to Lucious Harris starting. And K-Mart was a rookie in 2001. He improved in 2002. They also added Richard Jefferson off the bench. Stephon Marbury was always a net negative, so the addition of Kidd is a major swing from low to high.

It's just not as simple as a plug and play of adding Kidd and magically they became a #1 defense. There were other factors too.

Another point that needs to be mentioned... The Nets still had the #7 defense the season K-Mart left.

[HoopsNY]

Another point that needs to be mentioned... The Nets still had the #7 defense the season K-Mart left.

Yea, after being the #4 defense in 2004 with K-Mart. But K-Mart missed 17 games that year.

'04 w/K-Mart: 97.4 DRTG
'04 w/o K-Mart: 104.6 DRTG

I don't see how any of this proves anything other than the fact that Kidd had much better help defensively than GP did from '99-'02. Who on Seattle were as good as K-Mart, Cliff Robinson, Marion, and Jefferson?

[Manny98]

1. Curry
2. Magic
3. CP3
4. Kyrie
5. Stockton

[HoopsNY]

1. Curry
2. Magic
3. CP3
4. Kyrie
5. Stockton

lol ....so basically Kyrie gets the #4 slot - forgetting Oscar, Nash, Frazier, and Zeke - off of the strength of his 2016 playoffs? That's absurd.

[RRR3]

1. Curry
2. Magic
3. CP3
4. Kyrie
5. Stockton
:facepalm

[SouBeachTalents]

1. Curry
2. Magic
3. CP3
4. Kyrie
5. Stockton
You really gonna have Magic & Curry ahead of Kyrie? Terrible list.

[1987_Lakers]

Yea, after being the #4 defense in 2004 with K-Mart. But K-Mart missed 17 games that year.

'04 w/K-Mart: 97.4 DRTG
'04 w/o K-Mart: 104.6 DRTG

I don't see how any of this proves anything other than the fact that Kidd had much better help defensively than GP did from '99-'02. Who on Seattle were as good as K-Mart, Cliff Robinson, Marion, and Jefferson?

You won't get an argument from me there, it seems clear Jason Kidd had more defensive talent around him than GP did from '99-'02.

But the fact that the Nets were still a #7 defense without K-Mart in 2005 speaks volumes to how valuable Kidd was as a defender. If you strictly evaluated both Kidd & Payton as defenders, Kidd is simply more versatile. Kidd could guard some 3's, which is something I didn't see GP do in some games I've watched him, he was a superior off-ball defender, I routinely saw Kidd make defensive plays even if he wasn't guarding the man with the ball, he wasn't the lock down man defender GP was (Still very good though), but I prefer Kidd's versatility more on that end.

And the advanced numbers I believe back up that Kidd was the more impactful defender. (Defensive box plus-minus, in particular)

DBPM for GP from '94-'98: 1.1
DBPM for Kidd from '00-'04: 1.7

Not a "huge" edge, but it's there.

[Xiao Yao You]

lol ....so basically Kyrie gets the #4 slot - forgetting Oscar, Nash, Frazier, and Zeke - off of the strength of his 2016 playoffs? That's absurd.

has Whiteside over Gobert too. That's the life of a troll. What team is Whiteside on currently btw?

[1987_Lakers]

Off topic, I'm looking at Defensive box plus-minus from Hakeem & D-Rob and it's quite crazy how great they are in that stat.

Hakeem: 3.6 in DBPM from '90-'94
D-Rob: 3.5 in DBPM from '92-'96

No 90's center comes close with that type of defensive impact consistently. For the LOLz I looked up Shaq.... only a +0.8 DBPM from '93-'01. (His highest being 2.0 in 2000 which many consider his best defensive season.)

I'm not a big fan of defensive stats, but this DBPM seems pretty accurate for the most part.

[HoopsNY]

You won't get an argument from me there, it seems clear Jason Kidd had more defensive talent around him than GP did from '99-'02.

But the fact that the Nets were still a #7 defense without K-Mart in 2005 speaks volumes to how valuable Kidd was as a defender. If you strictly evaluated both Kidd & Payton as defenders, Kidd is simply more versatile. Kidd could guard some 3's, which is something I didn't see GP do in some games I've watched him, he was a superior off-ball defender, I routinely saw Kidd make defensive plays even if he wasn't guarding the man with the ball, he wasn't the lock down man defender GP was (Still very good though), but I prefer Kidd's versatility more on that end.

And the advanced numbers I believe back up that Kidd was the more impactful defender. (Defensive box plus-minus, in particular)

GP guarded 3s too. I recall him guarding Pippen in the finals as an example. Remember he was a 6'4" PG so he had the ability to defend wing players more easily than a smaller guard.

I don't buy the advanced numbers if we're going to rely on DBPM. It's a box score statistic. That doesn't speak to defensive acumen, let alone help defense, which is what the debate centers around.

I think you're being stubborn on this one bro.

[HoopsNY]

has Whiteside over Gobert too. That's the life of a troll. What team is Whiteside on currently btw?

Yea what can you do. ISH being ISH. Notice the debate died and it became just me and 1987 when it actually involved some analysis.

[John8204]

The '01 Nets with Kenyon Martin (2nd best defender on that Nets team during the Kidd era) were ranked #23 in defense.

The '02 Nets with the addition of Kidd jumped all the way to #1.

That right there shows you what type of impact he had.

I believe when Kidd left the Suns, Phoenix fell to an average defensive team as well.

Also at 37 won a ring with Dirk something 24-29 year old Steve Nash couldn't do

[1987_Lakers]

GP guarded 3s too. I recall him guarding Pippen in the finals as an example. Remember he was a 6'4" PG so he had the ability to defend wing players more easily than a smaller guard.

I don't buy the advanced numbers if we're going to rely on DBPM. It's a box score statistic. That doesn't speak to defensive acumen, let alone help defense, which is what the debate centers around.

I think you're being stubborn on this one bro.

Like I said in my previous post, I'm not a big fan of defensive stats, but DBPM seems like the most accurate advanced stat there is to evaluating defensive impact. And I don't see myself being stubborn, I already said GP was the better man defender, I think that's fair. And you already conceded earlier that Kidd was the better help defender.

[dankok8]

Payton overall was a better defender than Kidd and I say that based on the eye test. Kidd was quite good though.

My top 10 and honestly it's quite fluid.

1. Magic
2. Curry
3. Oscar
4. Isiah
5. Nash
6. CP3
7. Stockton
8. Cousy
9. Frazier
10. Kidd

[Pitbull]

I am not sure I can rank Curry on this one.Because he is greatest shooter of all time, but not a PG for me.


1. Magic
2. Lebron
3. Oscar
4. Cousy
5. Isiah
6. CP3
7. Nash
8. Stockton
9. Kidd
10. Payton


9 out of the 10 are top 10 in assists all time,only dismissed Mark Jackson and added Cousy.

[Manny98]

lol ....so basically Kyrie gets the #4 slot - forgetting Oscar, Nash, Frazier, and Zeke - off of the strength of his 2016 playoffs? That's absurd.
As a player in today's NBA you're taking Kyrie over all of those guys. Zeke,Oscar and Nash are better career Wise

[1987_Lakers]

Found a thread this morning on the Kidd vs Payton defense debate.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1725275

Funny enough, GP won the poll, but the people who gave the more in-depth responses in that thread sided with Kidd.


of course defensive rebounding is part of defense. Just because you could get defensive rebounds and let people blow by you doesn't mean those things are correlated naturally because clearly they aren't.

If you are a bad defensive rebounding team its going to be essentially impossible to be a good defensive team no matter how well you defend because of the extra possessions you are surrendering. It's another reason why defensive/offensive ratings stats shouldn't be taken as gospel.

To me this is very similar to KG/Duncan in that casual fans are going to immediately believe Glove to be the better defender because he had the nickname and the scowls and the trash talk whereas Kidd just quietly went about his business wrecking your offensive in a wide variety of play.

Glove was a great defender, but Kidd quite clearly the more impactful one.


For defensive career value, certainly Kidd. Payton after like, 2001, was just OK. Kidd was still plenty impactful on defense during his tenure with the Knicks even.

For peak, it's close. Payton was a better man defender/stopper, but Kidd was probably better at pretty much everything else. Personally I'd probably prefer Kidd if I needed one of these guys to be one of the my 1 or 2 best defensive players, but I can see the argument for GP.

And of course, we have our own "kawhileonard" aka "Duncan21forMVp" aka "JordansBulls" giving his generic take.


Gary Payton was definitely a better defender than Kidd.

:oldlol:

[Pitbull]

Jason Kidd’s championship run of 2011 was more impressive than Payton’s run in 2006.
Final stats

Payton: 2.7 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 2.0 apg, 1 spg, 0 bpg, 37% FG, 14% 3FG, 33% FT

Kidd: 7.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 6.3 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.8 bpg, 39% FG, 43% 3FG, 75% FT

[2much_knowledge]

Paul george the best pg ever

[HoopsNY]

Like I said in my previous post, I'm not a big fan of defensive stats, but DBPM seems like the most accurate advanced stat there is to evaluating defensive impact. And I don't see myself being stubborn, I already said GP was the better man defender, I think that's fair. And you already conceded earlier that Kidd was the better help defender.

DBPM is a box score statistic. It's why you'll have guys like Eaton ahead of Hakeem, or Gobert ahead of Giannis and KG. If you have to rely on DBPM, then how much of GP did you really watch, particularly from '93-'01?

In addition to the fact that the league banned illegal defense, thus opening up to the zone and that benefiting how Kidd is viewed, I think some things about GP need to be understood.

GP was not only a master of on the ball defense, but he was also a master of aggravating defenses in full court presses. This was one of Seattle's specialties, as well as any team that was great defensively during the '90s, like Chicago and NY.

Also, he was magnificent at ball denial. This disrupted the flow of offenses by slowing them down, redirecting plays, and putting star players out of their comfort zone on the perimeter.

If you watched GP during his peak, you also saw how great he was with help-defense in the post. I think most people forget about that, which is something that is completely lost in the discussion.

Kidd's help-defense was better not merely because it stopped opposing offenses, but because Kidd often turned those plays into transition buckets. That's really why he's the better help defender. But as a full package, gotta go with GP.