Comparing MJ and Jokic against teams with two top 5 players

[3ba11]

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* Joker lost to Lebron/AD with 25/4/7 on 63 TS from Murray

* Jordan beat Shaq/Penny with 19/7/7 on 51 TS from Pippen


- Penny was 1st team All-NBA in 96'
- Murray led the Nuggets in scoring for playoffs with 27/5/7 on 63 TS

[ShawkFactory]

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* Joker lost to Lebron/AD with 25/4/7 on 63 TS from Murray

* Jordan beat Shaq/Penny with 19/7/7 on 51 TS from Pippen


- Penny was 1st team All-NBA in 96'
- Murray led the Nuggets in scoring for playoffs with 27/5/7 on 63 TS

So was Pippen.

[3ba11]

So was Pippen.


That's fine - I just mentioned Penny's All-NBA to remind people that Penny had earned top 5 status and therefore compared to AD

Otoh, Pippen's 3-peat will alway get All-NBA due to the unprecedented ring count and 3-peat - winning spotlight - no examples of dominant performance like Penny and every other 90's sidekick

Guys like Terry Porter had to carry their teams to the Finals - so only MJ lacked a 1b sidekick that could take over or achieve elite stats.. Pippen was just a system player and worse than Jeff Green without the system

[ShawkFactory]

That's fine - I just mentioned Penny's All-NBA to remind people that Penny had earned top 5 status and therefore compared to AD

Otoh, Pippen's 3-peat will alway get All-NBA due to the unprecedented ring count and 3-peat - winning spotlight - no examples of dominant performance like Penny and every other 90's sidekick

Guys like Terry Porter had to carry their teams to the Finals - so only MJ lacked a 1b sidekick that could take over or achieve elite stats.. Pippen was just a system player and worse than Jeff Green without the system

What you're arguing is that MJ beat a team with 2 top 5 players. But you're ignoring that he had a top 5 player on his own team. Jokic did not.

[3ba11]

What you're arguing is that MJ beat a team with 2 top 5 players. But you're ignoring that he had a top 5 player on his own team. Jokic did not.


media awards have nothing to do with top 5 - Jokic lost with a sidekick that played better than Pippen ever did - that's the point

And Pippen was never better than guys that led their team to Finals like MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Drexler, or Robinson, while also being behind Penny, Hill, and more.

He was literally never considered a top 5 player or that caliber of dominant player - he was literally Iggy or Wiggins and there's zero examples of him playing above that. Only the winning spotlight gives him all-time status, not his Iggy performance

[ShawkFactory]

media awards have nothing to do with top 5

Then why was this...


Penny was 1st team All-NBA in 96'

...in your OP? I assume it was to presumably make the case that Penny was top 5. But you kind of undid yourself pretty quickly there :lol

[3ba11]

.

Then why was this...



...in your OP? I assume it was to presumably make the case that Penny was top 5. But you kind of undid yourself pretty quickly there :lol


Thread Cliffs


Jordan won with Pippen's 19/7/7 on bad efficiency, so Pippen gets All-NBA, while Jokic lost with Murray's 27/5/7 on phenomenal efficiency, so Murray doesn't get All-NBA (doesn't get inflated by winning spotlight).

Imagine if Joker won with Murray's 27/5/7 - Murray would be an all-time great

[ShawkFactory]

"Abort abort!" :lol


Jordan won with Pippen's 19/7/7 on bad efficiency, so Pippen gets All-NBA, while Jokic lost with Murray's 27/5/7 on phenomenal efficiency, so Murray doesn't get All-NBA (doesn't get inflated by winning spotlight).

The All-NBA teams are voted on before the conference finals.

[FultzNationRISE]

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* Joker lost to Lebron/AD with 25/4/7 on 63 TS from Murray



Now to be fair, at that same age MJ was establishing his ignominious hallmark of starting 1-9 in the playoffs.

[RRR3]

Lol he’s scared of Jokic now.

[Axe]

1-9

[HoopsNY]

3ball likes to discredit 2020 as being a Mickey Mouse bubble ring that's faster paced, lacks defense, where players got a long span of rest....

....but now all of a sudden Murray's stats count? Not to mention, Pippen was injured in the second half of the season and wasn't the same in the playoffs. But yea, let's just go off of raw numbers.

[SouBeachTalents]

3ball likes to discredit 2020 as being a Mickey Mouse bubble ring that's faster paced, lacks defense, where players got a long span of rest....

....but now all of a sudden Murray's stats count? Not to mention, Pippen was injured in the second half of the season and wasn't the same in the playoffs. But yea, let's just go off of raw numbers.
It's classic 3ball, he CONSTANTLY contradicts himself to suit whatever agenda he's trying to push. Just look at this thread, Shawk had him running in circles :lol It's why I refuse to believe anyone actually thinks he's a good poster, it has to be trolling.

[ShawkFactory]

3ball likes to discredit 2020 as being a Mickey Mouse bubble ring that's faster paced, lacks defense, where players got a long span of rest....

....but now all of a sudden Murray's stats count? Not to mention, Pippen was injured in the second half of the season and wasn't the same in the playoffs. But yea, let's just go off of raw numbers.

Nothing has changed. He was laughed out of the room immediately and will not post in this thread again. We’ll all have to deal with his next 5 nonsensical and/or repeat ones.

[3ba11]

"Abort abort!" :lol



The All-NBA teams are voted on before the conference finals.


You misunderstood

Pippen got All-NBA in the first place because Jordan won with him in 91'

That's the difference between MJ and Joker - MJ elevates lower producers to media accolade by winning with them, while Joker lost, so his higher -producing help lack media accolade.

If Jordan wasn't good enough to make Pippen a champion, then Pippen would've never made All-NBA and would've been an undecorated bum like the rest of the losers (like Murray)

[ShawkFactory]

You misunderstood

Pippen got All-NBA in the first place because Jordan won with him in 91'

That's the difference between MJ and Joker - MJ elevates lower producers to media accolade by winning with them, while Joker lost, so his higher -producing help lack media accolade.

If Jordan wasn't good enough to make Pippen a champion, then Pippen would've never made All-NBA and would've been an undecorated bum like the rest of the losers (like Murray)

20/6/6 on 55 TS%, 21.0 PER, .209 WS/48, 6.3 BPM, 5.9 VORP

19/5/4 on 56 TS%, 17.7 PER, .107 WS/48, 1.2 BPM, 1.5 BPM

Wonder which of these guys was All-NBA

[ShawkFactory]

^^^ that works in Murray's favor when we look at the playoffs:


20' Murray..... 23.7 PER.. 5.9 BPM.. 0.174 WS/48.. 1.5 VORP.. 63 TS.. 27/7
93' Pippen..... 16.9 PER.. 2.0 BPM.. 0.080 WS/48.. 0.5 VORP.. 50 TS.. 20/7


:facepalm:... Jordan clearly won with far less help

Pippen's 96-98' runs are also inferior across the board.

Btw, Pippen didn't make All-NBA until Year 5, so Murray was on his way too if he could've won in 2020.. Unfortunately, Joker couldn't win with him, so Murray never got media accolade like Pippen.

Meanwhile, the regular season is affected by things like defensive attention - see response regarding regular season below






2020 Regular season

Jokic....... 19 ppg
Murray..... 19 ppg


^^^ equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention, so Murray shared defensive attention with Jokic, while Pippen was wide open because MJ commanded all the attention (carrying scoring load).. Pippen wasn't on the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif)..

This was confirmed by looking at Pippen's performance outside of the dynasty system that he grew up in, which set everything up for him - he was literally worse than Jeff Green outside the system






Pippen wasn't All-NBA until 92' and would never have made All-NBA if he lost in 91' after the migraine in 90'.... and remember that he gets ragdolled by X-Man in 92' to nearly lose in 7 games.

MJ allowed Pippen to come out of these scenarios a winner instead of perennial loser.

So that's the difference - MJ won with Pippen, which elevated him to media accolade, while Jokic failed to win with higher-producing teammates, so they weren't elevated to media accolade like Pippen.

so imagine the 91' Finals if jordan MISSED the critical shot at the end of Game 3 and went down 1-2 with the next two games in LA... And then they lose the next year to X-Man and Ewing in Game 7... So imagine that they lose every year from 89-92' just like Joker does - Pippen would never have made All-NBA in this scenario but fortunately MJ was good enough to win with him and elevate him to media accolade.

:roll::roll:

Holy shit that’s funny. Respect.

[3ba11]

20/6/6 on 55 TS%, 21.0 PER, .209 WS/48, 6.3 BPM, 5.9 VORP

19/5/4 on 56 TS%, 17.7 PER, .107 WS/48, 1.2 BPM, 1.5 BPM

Wonder which of these guys was All-NBA





^^^ that works in Murray's favor when we look at the playoffs:


20' Murray..... 23.7 PER.. 5.9 BPM.. 0.174 WS/48.. 1.5 VORP.. 63 TS.. 27/7
93' Pippen..... 16.9 PER.. 2.0 BPM.. 0.080 WS/48.. 0.5 VORP.. 50 TS.. 20/7


:facepalm:... Jordan clearly won with far less help

Pippen's 96-98' runs are also inferior across the board.

Btw, Pippen didn't make All-NBA until Year 5, so Murray was on his way too if he could've won in 2020.. Unfortunately, Joker couldn't win with him, so Murray never got media accolade like Pippen.

Meanwhile, the regular season is affected by things like defensive attention - see response regarding regular season below







Wonder which of these guys was All-NBA





2020 Regular season

Jokic....... 19 ppg
Murray..... 19 ppg


^^^ equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention, so Murray shared defensive attention with Jokic, while Pippen was wide open because MJ commanded all the attention (carrying scoring load).. Pippen wasn't on the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif)..

This was confirmed by looking at Pippen's performance outside of the dynasty system that he grew up in, which set everything up for him - he was literally worse than Jeff Green outside the system







20/6/6 on 55 TS%, 21.0 PER, .209 WS/48, 6.3 BPM, 5.9 VORP

19/5/4 on 56 TS%, 17.7 PER, .107 WS/48, 1.2 BPM, 1.5 BPM

Wonder which of these guys was All-NBA





Pippen wasn't All-NBA until 92' and would never have made All-NBA if he lost in 91' after the migraine in 90'.... and remember that he gets ragdolled by X-Man in 92' to nearly lose in 7 games.

MJ allowed Pippen to come out of these scenarios a winner instead of perennial loser.

So that's the difference - MJ won with Pippen, which elevated him to media accolade, while Jokic failed to win with higher-producing teammates, so they weren't elevated to media accolade like Pippen.

so imagine the 91' Finals if jordan MISSED the critical shot at the end of Game 3 and went down 1-2 with the next two games in LA... And then they lose the next year to X-Man and Ewing in Game 7... So imagine that they lose every year from 89-92' just like Joker does - Pippen would never have made All-NBA in this scenario but fortunately MJ was good enough to win with him and elevate him to media accolade.

[3ba11]

Whoops bad timing on the re-paste

[AirBonner]

I think LeBron is better than MJ

[3ba11]

I think LeBron is better than MJ


Don't take my word for it - Shawk agrees (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?507343-Comparing-MJ-and-Jokic-against-teams-with-two-top-5-players&p=14677139&viewfull=1#post14677139) that Pippen is indeed overrated and probably closer to top 100 than top 30

Imagine if Iggy was top 30 all-time - it happened with another similar -caliber player due to unprecedented winning spotlight (6/6).

Ultimately, Jordan simply won with Pippen, so Pippen was All-NBA by Year 5, while Jokic lost with higher producers like 4th-year Murray, so Murray couldn't get media accolade by Year 5 like Pippen.

[ShawkFactory]

Don't take my word for it - Shawk agrees (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?507343-Comparing-MJ-and-Jokic-against-teams-with-two-top-5-players&p=14677139&viewfull=1#post14677139) that Pippen is indeed overrated and probably closer to top 100 than top 30

Imagine if Iggy was top 30 all-time - it happened with another similar -caliber player due to unprecedented winning spotlight (6/6).

Ultimately, Jordan simply won with Pippen, so Pippen was All-NBA by Year 5, while Jokic lost with higher producers like 4th-year Murray, so Murray couldn't get media accolade by Year 5 like Pippen.
How’d we get here?