Perennial All-NBA is reserved for 1st options unless you're winning or won rings

[3ba11]

That's how we know that Pippen and Klay wouldn't have made All-NBA so many times without MJ/Curry being good enough to win with their secondary level of production, thereby elevating them to champion and media accolade

Btw, exceptions to the thread title are defensive center like Gobert, Mutombo or Wallace

[ShawkFactory]

I mean that makes sense intuitively. Typically the teams that win a lot of rings have second options that are all-nba caliber. Thus why they’re so elevated.

[Kblaze8855]

I’ll let Stockton know to return his 11.

[bison]

I’ll let Stockton know to return his 11.

:lol:

[3ba11]

I’ll let Stockton know to return his 11.


It's similar to Magic getting All-NBA as a goat floor general despite being the 2nd or 3rd option- so maybe goat floor generals are exceptions too like defensive centers.. obviously, there's few exceptions to this rule

Bottom line - Pippen made All-NBA in Year 5 (92') after winning in 91'... But if Jordan loses in 91', 92', and 93', Pippen would never have made All-NBA.. He would be like Jamal Murray, who was on pace for All-NBA in Year 5 like Pippen if he could've won in 2020.. But Joker couldn't win with Murray and therefore couldn't elevate him to media accolade like MJ did for Pippen.. And Murray played better than Pippen ever did in those playoffs (27/5/7 on 63 TS to lead the team)..

[3ba11]

I mean that makes sense intuitively. Typically the teams that win a lot of rings have second options that are all-nba caliber. Thus why they’re so elevated.


Jokic couldn't win on 2020 despite Murray playing better than Pippen ever did

So some guys can win with shit production from secondary producers like Wiggins and Pippen, thereby elevating them to media accolade, while other guys can't win with elite production from guys like Murray or Kyrie...

If Lebron or Jokic 3-peated, then Murray and Kyrie would be perennial All-NBA and you would inflate them like you do Pippen

[ShawkFactory]

Jokic couldn't win on 2020 despite Murray playing better than Pippen ever did

So some guys can win with shit production from secondary producers like Wiggins and Pippen, thereby elevating them to media accolade, while other guys can't win with elite production from guys like Murray or Kyrie...

If Lebron or Jokic 3-peated, then Murray and Kyrie would be perennial All-NBA and you would inflate them like you do Pippen

Lebron and AD in the 2020 WCF combined: 58/17/12 on on 64 TS%, 48.5 total game score

Jokic faced a team with guys who played better than any team Jordan ever faced.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jokic couldn't win on 2020 despite Murray playing better than Pippen ever did

So some guys can win with shit production from secondary producers like Wiggins and Pippen, thereby elevating them to media accolade, while other guys can't win with elite production from guys like Murray or Kyrie...

If Lebron or Jokic 3-peated, then Murray and Kyrie would be perennial All-NBA and you would inflate them like you do Pippen
Kyrie literally can’t even stay healthy enough to 3peat with.

[3ba11]

Lebron and AD in the 2020 WCF combined: 58/17/12 on on 64 TS%, 48.5 total game score

Jokic faced a team with guys who played better than any team Jordan ever faced.


It's easy to play well against shit comp - Jokic and his 18 gamescore was shit comp - that's the whole point- he couldn't dominate enough to win with Murray and elevate him to media accolade like Jordan did Pippen... Jordan imposed his will on Magic and Joker was well.... a joke

[ShawkFactory]

It's easy to play well against shit comp


Moving the goalposts once again :lol

This was before he became MVP level himself anyway.

But in all seriousness, what's with the Joker hate? Did some dude on a podcast compare his VORP last year to Jordan's in 93 or something and that set you off? I've literally never seen someone compare the two.

[3ba11]

Kyrie literally can’t even stay healthy enough to 3peat with.


He could've repeated in 2017 but this would've required All-NBA defense on KD, which Lebron wasn't good enough to provide - Lebron wasn't all-defense in his 30's - so he wasn't required to be a good defender, while MJ was required to be top 5 DPOY from 88-98'.

So MJ was a completely different level where those Cavs would've been a top defensive team with MJ instead of Lebron - MJ would never have lost that series with Kyrie basically playing Curry to a standstill

[Hey Yo]

It's easy to play well against shit comp

Yep.... see the 97 and 98 Finals, plus Jordan's Wizards

[3ba11]

Moving the goalposts once again :lol

This was before he became MVP level himself anyway.

But in all seriousness, what's with the Joker hate? Did some dude on a podcast compare his VORP last year to Jordan's in 93 or something and that set you off? I've literally never seen someone compare the two.


I was wasting time on basketball-reference recently and was shocked to see how dominant Murray was in the 2020 Playoffs..

It made me realize that Jordan elevated Pippen to media accolade by simply winning with him and Jokic could've done the same with Murray by winning in 2020 - Murray would've made All-NBA in 2021 (Year 5) just like 5th-year Pippen did in 92' (after winning in 91')

[Hey Yo]

He could've repeated in 2017 but this would've required All-NBA defense on KD, which Lebron wasn't good enough to provide - Lebron wasn't all-defense in his 30's - so he wasn't required to be a good defender, while MJ was required to be top 5 DPOY from 88-98'.

So MJ was a completely different level where those Cavs would've been a top defensive team with MJ instead of Lebron - MJ would never have lost that series with Kyrie basically playing Curry to a standstill

How good was MJ 's defense in his 7th consecutive Finals?

[ShawkFactory]

I was wasting time on basketball-reference recently and was shocked to see how dominant Murray was in the 2020 Playoffs..


This was barely 2 years ago, you were here posting as much as you do know and everyone was talking about. Don't lie for your narrative, its embarrassing.

Yea he played really well, looked like he was on his way to becoming a star but the injury really derailed him. We'll see if he can get back to the level and trajectory he was on.

[3ba11]

How good was MJ 's defense in his 7th consecutive Finals?

Lebron's defensive assignment won FMVP in 2014 when Kawhi went from a 12 ppg role player to 24 on 70% shooting for the last 3 games.

In 2015, Lebron's horrific defense allowed an 8 ppg bench player to double his scoring average and win FMVP

So Lebron didn't need 7 Finals to wear down - he wasn't a good defender starting at age 30 - he wasn't all-defense in his 30's, so he was a weak defender that let his defensive assignment win FMVP in 4 of 5 Finals (14', 15', 17', 18')

[3ba11]

This was barely 2 years ago, you were here posting as much as you do know and everyone was talking about. Don't lie for your narrative, its embarrassing.

Yea he played really well, looked like he was on his way to becoming a star but the injury really derailed him. We'll see if he can get back to the level and trajectory he was on.


I knew Murray played well but not that well - I didn't know the specific numbers.... 27/5/7 on 63 TS?? .. Michael doesn't lose with that unless he's facing a top 5 team in history give or take

Maybe you don't realize but when Jordan averaged 30/6/5 in a series, this was a bad series for him and below his norm - yet this would've been enough to outplay AD's best in that series when you consider clutch stats (last 5 within 5) and leadership.. Now what if Jordan gets his norm of 33.5 ppg, or what if he gets above his norm? It's lights out

[ShawkFactory]

I knew Murray played well but not that well - I didn't know the specific numbers.... 27/5/7 on 63 TS?? .. Michael doesn't lose with that unless he's facing a top 5 team in history give or take

Maybe you don't realize but when Jordan averaged 30/6/5 in a series, this was a bad series for him and below his norm - yet this would've been enough to outplay AD's best in that series when you consider clutch stats (last 5 within 5) and leadership.. Now what if Jordan gets his norm of 33.5 ppg, or what if he gets above his norm? It's lights out

That series was a culmination of things for the Lakers. AD and Lebron played out of their minds together, KCP and Rondo shot crazy well, and the entire team was just on some next level synergy shit that is really tough to beat when it happens. Particularly when that team is already extremely talented.

[3ba11]

That series was a culmination of things for the Lakers. AD and Lebron played out of their minds together, KCP and Rondo shot crazy well, and the entire team was just on some next level synergy shit that is really tough to beat when it happens. Particularly when that team is already extremely talented.


You said it yourself - you added up the gamescore - Joker sucked - he wasn't good comp, so it's no surprise that AD/Lebron went off

See I think that's where we differ - guys like you and Bill Simmons think a player's performance is separate and unaffected by the opponent's performance... you think that guys get out of bed in the morning with pre-determined ability/stats for that day - so on October 30th, AD is capable of 30/11 and nothing can affect that - he will get these stats regardless of who he's facing... But if that were true - if the opponent's performance and ability doesn't affect AD's performance, then AD would get 30/11 against toddlers too, which makes no sense.. Surely he could get 100 or something on toddlers... So the quality of opponent performance (comp) affects AD's performance - AD would've been more worn down against an unstoppable opponent that gets 30 ppg or 28 PER on bad days, whereas Jokic wasn't that good back then... But I agree that he's almost certainly good enough now to elevate a healthy Murray to media accolade (win with Murray), like MJ did with Pippen.

[Hey Yo]

Lebron's defensive assignment won FMVP in 2014 when Kawhi went from a 12 ppg role player to 24 on 70% shooting for the last 3 games.

In 2015, Lebron's horrific defense allowed an 8 ppg bench player to double his scoring average and win FMVP

So Lebron didn't need 7 Finals to wear down - he wasn't a good defender starting at age 30 - he wasn't all-defense in his 30's, so he was a weak defender that let his defensive assignment win FMVP in 4 of 5 Finals (14', 15', 17', 18')

MJ could barely play 7 consecutive seasons before needing to quit, let alone play in 7 consecutive Finals.

As usual, you deflect when you know you've been shit on.

[ShawkFactory]

You said it yourself - you added up the gamescore - Joker sucked - he wasn't good comp, so it's no surprise that AD/Lebron went off

See I think that's where we differ - guys like you and Bill Simmons think a player's performance is separate and unaffected by the opponent's performance... you think that guys get out of bed in the morning with pre-determined ability/stats for that day - so on October 30th, AD is capable of 30/11 and nothing can affect that - he will get these stats regardless of who he's facing... But if that were true - if the opponent's performance and ability doesn't affect AD's performance, then AD would get 30/11 against toddlers too, which makes no sense.. Surely he could get 100 or something on toddlers... So the quality of opponent performance (comp) affects AD's performance - AD would've been more worn down against an unstoppable opponent that gets 30 ppg or 28 PER on bad days, whereas Jokic wasn't that good back then... But I agree that he's almost certainly good enough now to elevate a healthy Murray to media accolade (win with Murray), like MJ did with Pippen.

You're constantly guilty of this as well, just on the other end. That's what's funny...you're doing it literally in this thread.

I generally just follow your logic when speaking with you. It tends to do all of the work for me. And I still can't tell if you do this on purpose just because you love the interactions with people.

[Hey Yo]

If Jokic sucked because his gamescore was 18.5, then what's that say about your 'superstars' Bosh and Wade in the 2014 Finals?

Their gamescores combined add up to 18.5


:roll:

[3ba11]

You're constantly guilty of this as well, just on the other end. That's what's funny...you're doing it literally in this thread.

I generally just follow your logic when speaking with you. It tends to do all of the work for me. And I still can't tell if you do this on purpose just because you love the interactions with people.


Your argument about Jokic's low gamescore made my point that Jokic wasn't good enough in 2020 to win with Murray and elevate him to media accolade like Jordan did Pippen...

But I think we agree that Jokic is much better now and probably good enough to win with a 100% Murray, thereby elevating Murray to media accolade like MJ did Pippen..

It's funny because if Pippen had gotten All-NBA before he ever won like MJ and great 1st options typically do, then I wouldn't have an argument.. Again, the argument is that MJ elevated a secondary producer like Pippen to media accolade by winning with him.... aka being good enough to win with him, which was Jokic's issue in 2020 (not good enough, aka low gamescore)

[Hey Yo]

If Jokic sucked because his gamescore was 18.5, then what's that say about your 'superstars' Bosh and Wade in the 2014 Finals?

Their gamescores combined add up to 18.5


:roll:

3ball??

[3ba11]

If Jokic sucked because his gamescore was 18.5, then what's that say about your 'superstars' Bosh and Wade in the 2014 Finals?

Their gamescores combined add up to 18.5


:roll:


Wade/Bosh weren't supposed to be the best player on the team like Jokic was

and you pulled their Finals gamescore, while Jokic lost in the conference finals - Wade/Bosh were great in conference finals

But again, Wade/Bosh were 2nd and 3rd option and therefore a luxury (elite 1st options playing 2nd and 3rd option)

Btw, Lebron's brand of ball had already reduced Bosh to a role player long before those Finals and Lebron's suboptimal fits with Wade/Bosh is why their team ceiling was much lower than expected.. this is the case for every Lebron team (410).. The Heat had the talent edge as defending champs and the odds were even heading into the 14' Finals, yet Lebron lost by record amount..

[Hey Yo]

Wade/Bosh weren't supposed to be the best player on the team like Jokic was

and you pulled their Finals gamescore, while Jokic lost in the conference finals - Wade/Bosh were great in conference finals

But again, Wade/Bosh were 2nd and 3rd option and therefore a luxury (elite 1st options playing 2nd and 3rd option)

Btw, Lebron's brand of ball had already reduced Bosh to a role player long before those Finals and Lebron's suboptimal fits with Wade/Bosh is why their team ceiling was much lower than expected.. this is the case for every Lebron team (410)
Yet you call the 2014 Heat a superteam.

10.6 + 7.9 = 18.5.

Joker played just as good as your "superstars" combined. So much for your "2014 Heat was a superteam"

Might have to start calling you Primo cause you constantly expose your failed trolling.

[3ba11]

Yet you call the 2014 Heat a superteam.

10.6 + 7.9 = 18.5.

Joker played just as good as your "superstars" combined. So much for your "2014 Heat was a superteam"

Might have to start calling you Primo cause you constantly expose your failed trolling.


First of all, Jordan won 6 titles with Horace Grant playing like Bosh's 14 Finals - Grant was a role-playing rebounder, while Bosh was a sophisticated, premier option that Lebron reduced to spot-up trash..

So Jordan won with less just based on the whole 2 all-stars vs 3 all-stars argument - the Heat had an extra perennial all-star and All-NBA caliber player which is a massive advantage - specifically, Bosh's sophistication allowed him to be a floor-spreading big that shot 40% from three - a role-player like Horace could never do that, so he wouldn't be enough help for Lebron.

Secondly, it's Lebron's fault - his skillset's restriction to ball-dominance doesn't get the most out of third options like Bosh or fellow ball-handlers like Wade, Ingram, Westbrook, Hughes, Rose, IT, and more..

Remember that Jamison averaged 20 as 3rd option in 05' and 22/9 right before joining Lebron, but only 15/8 after joining Lebron as a 2nd option... So Jamison is another clear-cut example of Lebron destroying guys.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters like KD or Arenas allow guys like Klay and Jamison to average 20 as 3rd option.. :confusedshrug:





Yet you call the 2014 Heat a superteam.





Comparing sidekick help while trying to 3-peat


Playoffs

14' WADE............ 18.5 PER.. 0.086 WS/48.. 1.6 obpm
93' PIPPEN......... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 WS/48.. 1.1 OBPM


Per 100 Poss

14' WADE............ 28.6 pts.. 6.2 ast.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' PIPPEN......... 26.2 pts.. 7.4 ast.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg

[Overdrive]

It's similar to Magic getting All-NBA as a goat floor general despite being the 2nd or 3rd option- so maybe goat floor generals are exceptions too like defensive centers.. obviously, there's few exceptions to this rule

Bottom line - Pippen made All-NBA in Year 5 (92') after winning in 91'... But if Jordan loses in 91', 92', and 93', Pippen would never have made All-NBA.. He would be like Jamal Murray, who was on pace for All-NBA in Year 5 like Pippen if he could've won in 2020.. But Joker couldn't win with Murray and therefore couldn't elevate him to media accolade like MJ did for Pippen.. And Murray played better than Pippen ever did in those playoffs (27/5/7 on 63 TS to lead the team)..

Post hoc. You can't know if Pippen wouldn't have made any All-NBA teams.

[3ba11]

Yet you call the 2014 Heat a superteam.

10.6 + 7.9 = 18.5.
.


That's why it's important for a team to avoid getting massively out-assisted and play a good brand of ball because teammates play better in a better brand of ball.. Spurs massively out-assisted the predictable Heat.

Do you understand that Lebron's super-team starts as the on-paper, talent favorite (preseason favorite) for 6 straight years (2011-2016) but barely won 50 games most years and was considered an underdog to Westbrook despite super-teams??.. That means Lebron doesn't know what he's doing... :hammerhead:.. only a weak brand of ball can cause favored talent to underachieve

[StrongLurk]

OP is really dumb. Also pretty insane as well. At least his insanity seems to be only MJ/Bball-focused instead of something like politics where he'd probably go kill someone.

[1987_Lakers]

OP is really dumb. Also pretty insane as well. At least his insanity seems to be only MJ/Bball-focused instead of something like politics where he'd probably go kill someone.

:oldlol: