Pippen only has five 40+ point games [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ba11

11-04-2022, 08:38 PM

Well I mean he played behind the GOAT scorer basically his whole career

What did he do outside the dynasty system that he grew up in?

Was he better or worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle?

How did he do against the top wings in the playoffs (Dominique, Penny, Kobe, Kemp, X-Man, Larry Johnson, etc).

Kukoc was preferred down the stretch of tight playoff games and led Pippen in 4th quarter ppg for the 98' Playoffs and Finals... Phil also preferred Kukoc over Pippen in the 4th because Pippen averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th of the 94' ECSF against Ewing

3ba11

11-04-2022, 08:43 PM

Axe

11-04-2022, 08:49 PM

When I see that I think how many times did a player ball hog? MJ’s teammates didn’t score much because they didn’t get the ball
Casuals are pretty much unaware of that lmao.

ShawkFactory

11-04-2022, 08:55 PM

.
Career Finals PPG

Jordan........ 34 on 48%

Lebron'........ 28 on 49%
Kyrie............ 28 on 47%
AD'............... 25 on 50%
Wade........... 24 on 48%

Pippen......... 19 on 42%

^^^ only Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in Finals)

Everyone else had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention

Do you think Murray and Gordon attracted more defensive attention last night than Jokic?

Bruce Brown and Jokic attracted the same?

SouBeachTalents

11-04-2022, 09:01 PM

.
Career Finals PPG

Jordan........ 34 on 48%

Lebron'........ 28 on 49%
Kyrie............ 28 on 47%
AD'............... 25 on 50%
Wade........... 24 on 48%

Pippen......... 19 on 42%

^^^ only Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in Finals)

Everyone else had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention
The irony is your 2nd and 3rd ranked players (Kobe & Bird) got outscored in the Finals for the majority of their rings. Another 3ball contradiction :lol

3ba11

11-04-2022, 09:05 PM

Do you think Murray and Gordon attracted more defensive attention last night than Jokic?

Bruce Brown and Jokic attracted the same?

It's a general intuitive principle that holds over time despite plenty of exceptions in individual games.

But over the course of NBA history, everyone had teammates that led in scoring for entire playoff runs, so they weren't always facing maximum defensive attention... Only MJ was forced to defeat maximum defensive attention for his entire career (carry the scoring load in every series) because only MJ lacked a go-to teammate that could achieve elite stats.. Every 90's sidekick was infact a 1b that took over series and achieved elite stats, except Pippen.. Pippen was the only sidekick that was more of a transition/hustle player and system player.

HOF Analyst Kenny Smith perfectly synthesizes everything I just said here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s

That's why MJ is goat (MDA - maximum defensive attention)

ShawkFactory

11-04-2022, 09:12 PM

It's a general intuitive principle that holds over time despite plenty of exceptions in individual games.

Aka you were thinking about Lebron and invented drunkenly one night over your notebook or word document or whatever.

Soundwave

11-04-2022, 11:04 PM

Why is leading a team to 55 wins some unbelievable achievement, lol.

The Atlanta Hawks in the same division in the same year as the 93-94 Bulls had 57 wins and they traded away Dominque Wilkins during the season making like Danny Manning their no.1 option.

Anyone give a shit about the 93-94 Hawks?

Brad Daugherty led the Cavs to 57 and 54 win seasons back to back, anyone give a crap about him?

Cedric Cebballos led the Lakers to a 53 win season, anyone give a crap about him?

Kevin Johnson led the Suns to a 55 win season before Barkley got there.

Frankly Jordan would have been better off if the Blazers weren't stupid and didn't pick Sam Bowie and just picked Jordan. Drexler is as good or better of player as Pippen was, he led a Blazers team to an actual NBA Finals ... twice and 50+ win seasons were the norm and Jordan wouldn't have needed to wait around years for Pippen to not shrink in the playoffs.

If Jordan is drafted by the Blazers, I think the Blazers start winning titles by 88 or 89, 2-3 years earlier than what it took in Chicago.

Axe

11-04-2022, 11:11 PM

How many 40-point games does bill russell have? Yet it didn't stop him at all from spearheading a legendary dynasty bt.

Shooter

11-04-2022, 11:21 PM

The irony is your 2nd and 3rd ranked players (Kobe & Bird) got outscored in the Finals for the majority of their rings. Another 3ball contradiction :lol

:lol

3ball's a pwssy boi that doesn't have any standards

Soundwave

11-04-2022, 11:26 PM

How many 40-point games does bill russell have? Yet it didn't stop him at all from spearheading a legendary dynasty bt.

Frankly it is a reason why Russell is not considered GOAT by a lot of people, because that many championships should make you a lock, but he was not a great offensive player.

3ba11

11-04-2022, 11:28 PM

How many 40-point games does bill russell have? Yet it didn't stop him at all from spearheading a legendary dynasty bt.

Did you know that Pippen barely guarded Magic in the 91' Finals and Jordan was the primary defender that defended Magic for the entirety of Games 1, 4, and 5, while also guarding him in the critical Game 3 fourth and OT that swung the series

In addition to being the choice to guard Magic, the great Jordan was also chosen to guard Drexler, Payton, and Miller, while getting more DPOY votes and 1st team defense.

Jordan was often called the best defender in the league and better than Hakeem even by guys like Jerry West and Phil Jackson - that's how great he was.

If MJ wasn't good enough to win with Pippen in 91', then Pippen wouldn't get All-NBA in 92', aka imagine a winless-Pippen from 88-93'.. Otoh, guys like Jokic weren't good enough to win with superior production from teammates like 27/5/7 on 63 TS from Murray - so Murray didn't make All-NBA in Year 5 like Pippen did... aka Jordan elevated Pippen by being good enough to win with him, aka 6 rings with a sidekick that played like 11' Lebron's Finals

Axe

11-04-2022, 11:32 PM

Frankly it is a reason why Russell is not considered GOAT by a lot of people, because that many championships should make you a lock, but he was not a great offensive player.
Lol offense is just one part of the game.

Soundwave

11-04-2022, 11:33 PM

Oh cool Kyrie Irving led a 55 win team when? Boston don’t count cuz Tatum was forced to grow fast and take over

What's so impressive about a 2nd round defeat?

The only reason the series went 7 games is because Kukoc bailed Pippen's dumb ass out by extending the series with his game winner.

If Pippen got his way and Phil drew up the play for him, he would've predictably bricked the shot, giving the Knicks a 3-1 series lead and they probably just shred apart a disillusioned Bulls team in 5 or 6 games.

Soundwave

11-04-2022, 11:34 PM

Lol offense is just one part of the game.

It's the most important part of the game, not too many teams win shit if they can't score for shit. There are teams that win championships that aren't necessarily great defensive teams.

Look at all the top player lists, arguably only really Russell and maybe Rodman are the only defensive first players that show up on any list and most people don't have Rodman in their top 50 anyway.

3ba11

11-04-2022, 11:38 PM

How many 40-point games does bill russell have? Yet it didn't stop him at all from spearheading a legendary dynasty bt.

Bill Russell had spectacular scoring help like everyone else in history except MJ

That's the point - everyone like Russell, Lebron or Magic had teammates lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while Maj averaged 10 more than Pippen in every SERIES.. So only Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load) for his entire career.

But MJ wasn't just a scorer - he averaged 35/7/7 in the 85-93' Playoffs or 34/7/7 in the 91-93' Playoffs with goat defense... Jordan actually averaged more APG than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff careers (85-93' vs 06-14') before Curry's pace-and-dpave era made offense easier for everyone.

AirBonner

11-04-2022, 11:39 PM

What's so impressive about a 2nd round defeat?

The only reason the series went 7 games is because Kukoc bailed Pippen's dumb ass out by extending the series with his game winner.

If Pippen got his way and Phil drew up the play for him, he would've predictably bricked the shot, giving the Knicks a 3-1 series lead and they probably just shred apart a disillusioned Bulls team in 5 or 6 games.
Uh Jordaneers are the ones calling Pippen a scrub. Yet he outscored every other second option. The fact that he led the bulls to the 2nd round without the god MJ is fvcking impressive. But no you got to down play it cuz you might wet your MJ Jammie’s otherwise

Lebron23

11-04-2022, 11:40 PM

Jordan never won a playoffs series and championship without Scottie Pippen

ShawkFactory

11-04-2022, 11:41 PM

Did you know that Pippen barely guarded Magic in the 91' Finals and Jordan was the primary defender that defended Magic for the entirety of Games 1, 4, and 5, while also guarding him in the critical Game 3 fourth and OT that swung the series

In addition to being the choice to guard Magic, the great Jordan was also chosen to guard Drexler, Payton, and Miller, while getting more DPOY votes and 1st team defense.

Jordan was often called the best defender in the league and better than Hakeem even by guys like Jerry West and Phil Jackson - that's how great he was.

If MJ wasn't good enough to win with Pippen in 91', then Pippen wouldn't get All-NBA in 92', aka imagine a winless-Pippen from 88-93'.. Otoh, guys like Jokic weren't good enough to win with superior production from teammates like 27/5/7 on 63 TS from Murray - so Murray didn't make All-NBA in Year 5 like Pippen did... aka Jordan elevated Pippen by being good enough to win with him, aka 6 rings with a sidekick that played like 11' Lebron's Finals

Well that's certainly not true.

3ba11

11-04-2022, 11:48 PM

Well that's certainly not true.

Jordan guarded Magic for 15 of 20 quarters including the critical fourth and OT in Game 3 that swung the series.

Otoh, it was documented on realGM that Pippen only guarded Magic for the 2nd/3rd/4th quarter of Game 2 and the 2nd/3rd quarter of Game 3 - that's 5 of 20 quarters and nothing in Games 1, 4, 5, except the last 4 minutes of Game 4.

ShawkFactory

11-04-2022, 11:48 PM

Why is leading a team to 55 wins some unbelievable achievement, lol.

You're missing the point. Which is fair enough giving the trolling involved on both sides.

There's no "amazing achievement". It's not actually about Pippen putting a team on his back and winning 55 games. We know that that's not the case.

It's just a testament to that supporting cast that even without Jordan the Bulls were a pretty good squad. That they could win 55 games and go toe-to-toe with the Knicks without him.

Some will try to make you believe that he carried scrubs to rings and it's simply highlighting that this is not the case. That's literally it.

Soundwave

11-04-2022, 11:51 PM

Uh Jordaneers are the ones calling Pippen a scrub. Yet he outscored every other second option. The fact that he led the bulls to the 2nd round without the god MJ is fvcking impressive. But no you got to down play it cuz you might wet your MJ Jammie’s otherwise

That's not even technically true. Pippen average a nothing special 17.8 ppg in 90-91 season for example, he was not the "best second option" in the game that year, not even close.

Even broadening the scope, since NBA basketball is not a 2-on-2 half court sport, other teams pretty usually had better scoring support from option 2/3/4 combined versus what the Bulls had.

The Sonics 2/3/4 options in 96 for example were Payton (19.3 ppg), Schrempf (17.1 ppg), and Hershey Hawkins (15.6 ppg) ... the Bulls on the other hand had Pippen (19.4 ppg), Kukoc (13.1 ppg), and Longley (9 ppg lol) as their no.2/3/4 options ... which team had better scoring support again?

The Bulls won what they won because Jordan would tilt the scales badly by being way better than whoever was the other team's best player, not because the Bulls were some loaded super team of offensive options.

The 91 Lakers, 92 Blazers, 93 Suns, 96 Magic, 96 Sonics, 98 Pacers all had better scoring depth than the Bulls from option 2-5, probably the Jazz too.

ShawkFactory

11-04-2022, 11:57 PM

Jordan guarded Magic for 15 of 20 quarters including the critical fourth and OT in Game 3 that swung the series.

Otoh, it was documented on realGM that Pippen only guarded Magic for the 2nd/3rd/4th quarter of Game 2 and the 2nd/3rd quarter of Game 3 - that's 5 of 20 quarters and nothing in Games 1, 4, 5, except the last 4 minutes of Game 4.

Yea you may need to rethink the use of your term "barely".

After losing the first game at home, game 2 was every bit as crucial as game 3. "Otoh", the two actual swing games of the series were 2 and 3 and Pippen guarded Magic in 5 of the 8 quarters.

Barely :roll:

Soundwave

11-04-2022, 11:59 PM

Let be honest too ... most teams didn't take the 93-94 Bulls as seriously and they got the benefit in the regular season of some softer efforts against.

The 92-93 Bulls had every team marking them down every night as the biggest game of the year.

Axe

11-05-2022, 12:00 AM

It's the most important part of the game, not too many teams win shit if they can't score for shit. There are teams that win championships that aren't necessarily great defensive teams.

Look at all the top player lists, arguably only really Russell and maybe Rodman are the only defensive first players that show up on any list and most people don't have Rodman in their top 50 anyway.
Lmao not sure about that. Jordan never scored more than 60 in the playoffs anymore once they got pippen to play alongside him in his team. Plus, the bulls won more games in the rs when they got their cast together.

3ba11

11-05-2022, 12:02 AM

You're missing the point. Which is fair enough giving the trolling involved on both sides.

There's no "amazing achievement". It's not actually about Pippen putting a team on his back and winning 55 games. We know that that's not the case.

It's just a testament to that supporting cast that even without Jordan the Bulls were a pretty good squad. That they could win 55 games and go toe-to-toe with the Knicks without him.

Some will try to make you believe that he carried scrubs to rings and it's simply highlighting that this is not the case. That's literally it.

The point is that scrubs frequently have a one-off and win 55 or get 3rd in MVP voting - see 2004 with Jermaine O'Neal.. Upgrade Reggie Miller or Artest to Jordan and that's 8 straight chips (Jordan wouldn't retire this time)... I think Blake Griffin was 3rd in MVP and won 55... Marc Gasol did it or was close, ditto KJ and many more... Horford's Hawks in 2015 were the perfect paper tiger just like the 94' Bulls and their phony regular season based on a no pressure period and surprise factor.

Fortunately, they were exposed in the playoffs and the 95' season - within 18 months of 3-peating, they were obviously becoming a bottom-dweller.. This is expected because if Pippen is the best scorer on your team, then your team is untalented and sucks... and cannot grow as we saw in 95'..... Pippen averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of the 94" ECSF - it's impossible to win with him as your go-to player because he isn't a go-to player.

Soundwave

11-05-2022, 12:03 AM

Lmao not sure about that. Jordan never scored more than 60 in the playoffs anymore once they got pippen to play alongside him in his team. Plus, the bulls won more games in the rs when they got their cast together.

Frankly Jordan would've been better off had Portland drafted him, he would have won titles a lot quicker and probably more of them.

The Bulls were a trash franchise that needed years to finally build a contender around the best player the game had ever seen. They got lucky that Portland drank the Sam Bowie kool-aid.

Had Jordan been drafted by Portland he would've quickly been put into a situation more like what Magic and Bird had, where they had loaded teams very quickly into their careers if not straight away.

Soundwave

11-05-2022, 12:06 AM

The point is that scrubs frequently have a one-off and win 55 or get 3rd in MVP voting - see 2004 with Jermaine O'Neal.. Upgrade Reggie Miller or Artest to Jordan and that's 8 straight chips (Jordan wouldn't retire this time)... I think Blake Griffin was 3rd in MVP and won 55... Marc Gasol did it or was close, ditto KJ and many more... Horford's Hawks in 2015 were the perfect paper tiger just like the 94' Bulls and their phony regular season based on a no pressure period and surprise factor.

Fortunately, they were exposed in the playoffs and the 95' season - within 18 months of 3-peating, they were obviously becoming a bottom-dweller.. This is expected because if Pippen is the best scorer on your team, then your team is untalented and sucks... and cannot grow as we saw in 95'..... Pippen averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of the 94" ECSF - it's impossible to win with him as your go-to player because he isn't a go-to player.

Pretty much it. Scottie couldn't generate shit as a no.1 scoring option in the clutch, 3 ppg in the 4th quarters of that Knicks series is pathetic.

Phil should've just let Scottie shoot and brick that shot because everyone and their grandma knows he'd brick it and the Knicks win in 5 or 6 games max in that case and Phil wouldn't have the head ache of Pippen still bitching about that to this day.

ShawkFactory

11-05-2022, 12:08 AM

The point is that scrubs frequently have a one-off and win 55 or get 3rd in MVP voting - see 2004 with Jermaine O'Neal.. Upgrade Reggie Miller or Artest to Jordan and that's 8 straight chips (Jordan wouldn't retire this time)... I think Blake Griffin was 3rd in MVP and won 55... Marc Gasol did it or was close, ditto KJ and many more... Horford's Hawks in 2015 were the perfect paper tiger just like the 94' Bulls and their phony regular season based on a no pressure period and surprise factor.

Fortunately, they were exposed in the playoffs and the 95' season - within 18 months of 3-peating, they were obviously becoming a bottom-dweller.. This is expected because if Pippen is the best scorer on your team, then your team is untalented and sucks... and cannot grow as we saw in 95'..... Pippen averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of the 94" ECSF - it's impossible to win with him as your go-to player because he isn't a go-to player.

You realize you're not helping your point, right?

Yea.....if you add any of the handful of best players ever to any of those teams you mentioned then they probably win.

3ba11

11-05-2022, 12:12 AM

You realize you're not helping your point, right?

Yea.....if you add any of the handful of best players ever to any of those teams you mentioned then they probably win.

Nah you just don't get it - this wasn't some 1st year team that Pippen was leading in 94' - this was an 8-year organic juggernaut that was coming off a 3-peat.

So Jordan was capable of building the 3-peat champion, while guys like Pippen crater a 3-peat dynasty to borderline lottery in less than 18 months

ShawkFactory

11-05-2022, 12:14 AM

Nah you just don't get it

Lol okay friend

SouBeachTalents

11-05-2022, 12:15 AM

Nah you just don't get it - this wasn't some 1st year team that Pippen was leading in 94' - this was an 8-year organic juggernaut that was coming off a 3-peat.

So Jordan was capable of building the 3-peat champion, while Pippen cratered a 3-peat dynasty to borderline lottery in less than 18 months
One of 3ball's most consistent lies. The Bulls were NINE games out from the lottery when Jordan came back. On no planet is that "borderline lottery".

97 bulls

11-05-2022, 12:33 AM

Nah you just don't get it - this wasn't some 1st year team that Pippen was leading in 94' - this was an 8-year organic juggernaut that was coming off a 3-peat.

So Jordan was capable of building the 3-peat champion, while guys like Pippen crater a 3-peat dynasty to borderline lottery in less than 18 months
Bro. Make up your mind. Are they a juggernaut? Which means Jordan had help. Or were they a one man team? Meaning Jordan and a bunch of bums. If they were the latter, then them winning 55 games in 94 was a great accomplishment.

3ba11

11-05-2022, 12:50 AM

Lol okay friend

You know factoids but you don't understand basketball stuff like chemistry, brand of ball/strategy... For example, you think Lebron could be added to the 94' team and win because you're just thinking "hurrr durrrr.. I'll add 27/7/7 to 55 wins and hurrr durrrr...equals titles... hurr durrrr"

I would warn against this thinking and be called a lunatic on this forum... I'd be told that I have mental problem..

But then when Lebron's ball-dominance requires a new offense and the triangle is ditched along with the 3-peat chemistry, things would start to look exactly as I said..... And we know from 20 years of watching Lebron that the Bulls' roster of cheap defenders is grossly insufficient.. The media would be begging for Hield and Kyrie to offset Pippen's bricks. Pippen would be ditched for AD the same way Ingram was... Again, you're saying this wouldn't happen but these are actual events from his own career.. Lebron's skillset needs more than Ingram or Pippen to win.. It needs AD or David Robinson or super-team. He barely wins 55 with those teams and they get demolished..

Keep in mind that the 92' and 93' Bulls were nearly beaten by the Knicks WITH jordan... It's hard to dominate at a Shaq or Hakeem level in the triangle and MJ was the only non-big that could do it.. Again, Lebron would be farcical in the triangle.. A joke

Gohan

11-05-2022, 08:13 AM

Casuals are pretty much unaware of that lmao.

Casual fans> real nba fans

Phoenix

11-05-2022, 08:34 AM

Bill Russell NEVER scored 40.

He only had 15 games with 30+ as well.

TheGoatest

11-05-2022, 09:03 AM

Pretty sure that's still more 40 point games than Bill Russell, who had a similar impact on the 60s Celtics championship teams interior defense that The Great Scott Pippen had on the 90s Bulls championship teams perimeter defense. :applause:

Axe

11-05-2022, 10:41 AM

Frankly Jordan would've been better off had Portland drafted him, he would have won titles a lot quicker and probably more of them.

The Bulls were a trash franchise that needed years to finally build a contender around the best player the game had ever seen. They got lucky that Portland drank the Sam Bowie kool-aid.

Had Jordan been drafted by Portland he would've quickly been put into a situation more like what Magic and Bird had, where they had loaded teams very quickly into their careers if not straight away.
You mean it's better for him if he 'colluded' by the start of his very career instead? The same thing you guys keep on pointing about his nemesis when it comes to all-time goat rankings? Lol interesting.

Honor Boost

11-05-2022, 10:43 AM

He sucks at scoring. Who didn't know that.

Real Men Wear Green

11-05-2022, 11:27 AM

He sucks at scoring. Who didn't know that.

No he did not. In fact he was a good scorer you are just falling into the trap of disrespecting a guy for not being elite at something. He averaged over 20 points three times.

Round Mound

11-05-2022, 07:54 PM

Defense? Playmaking? Pippen was great at that.

Soundwave

11-05-2022, 08:13 PM

You mean it's better for him if he 'colluded' by the start of his very career instead? The same thing you guys keep on pointing about his nemesis when it comes to all-time goat rankings? Lol interesting.

It's not "colluding" when you're drafted by a team. Portland had maybe the greatest dynasty in NBA history just sitting there on their draft table and they blew it to draft Sam Bowie. Do you seriously take more than 10 seconds to think about what you've posted? Did Magic collude by getting drafted by the Lakers? lol.

Axe

11-05-2022, 09:15 PM

It's not "colluding" when you're drafted by a team. Portland had maybe the greatest dynasty in NBA history just sitting there on their draft table and they blew it to draft Sam Bowie. Do you seriously take more than 10 seconds to think about what you've posted? Did Magic collude by getting drafted by the Lakers? lol.
Rofl i was just kidding but regardless, he still did have a successful career with chicago anyway. So what's your point? Is having six rings and finals mvps not enough? Also you sound like a blazers stan with what you have said earlier.

97 bulls

11-05-2022, 09:28 PM

It's not "colluding" when you're drafted by a team. Portland had maybe the greatest dynasty in NBA history just sitting there on their draft table and they blew it to draft Sam Bowie. Do you seriously take more than 10 seconds to think about what you've posted? Did Magic collude by getting drafted by the Lakers? lol.

Be honest bro, if the Blazers took Jordan, you'd be bashing Drexler instead of Pippen.

Besides, the Bulls almost had the greatest dynasty ever had Jordan himself not retired twice.