Was the 2010 NBA finals the biggest legacy changer?

[Duderonomy]

If the Celtics win game 7 , Kobe's resume looks alot weaker.

I think Lebron could survive losing the 2013 or 2016 finals.

If the Lakers had won in 1969 , maybe Wilt would be top 5.

[SouBeachTalents]

The biggest legacy changers imo, and I'm only doing series were the outcome was actually in doubt.

Shaq 2000 WCF. He loses the 3peat mystique, his 2000 season takes a colossal hit, they would've blown a 3-1 lead with Shaq scoring just 18 points in Game 7, and he misses out on having the GOAT tier 2000 Finals.

Kobe 2010 Finals. So much changes for him here, he drops to 0-2 against Boston, would've only had one FMVP and title without Shaq, and if he loses going 6/24? That literally becomes one of the most infamous performances of all time. Hell, he won and it still sort of is :lol

Bird 1984 Finals. He falls to 0-3 against Magic and the Lakers, and would've ended up with just 2 titles and one FMVP.

LeBron 2016 Finals. Obviously the crowning moment of his career and one of, if not the most epic title in league history. His legacy for sure takes a hit never delivering a title to Cleveland, but not as much as the previous 3 imo.

I couldn't choose from the 3 or 4 series Hakeem faced elimination during his title runs, but one of those would've probably rounded out my top 5.

HM: Wilt '68 ECF, Duncan '05 Finals, Kareem '74 Finals, Magic '88 Finals

[3ba11]

The biggest legacy changers imo, and I'm only doing series were the outcome was actually in doubt.

Shaq 2000 WCF. He loses the 3peat mystique, his 2000 season takes a colossal hit, they would've blown a 3-1 lead, and he misses out on having the GOAT tier 2000 Finals.

Kobe 2010 Finals. So much changes for him here, he drops to 0-2 against Boston, would've only had one FMVP and title without Shaq, and if he loses going 6/24? That literally becomes one of the most infamous performances of all time. Hell, he won and it still sort of is :lol

Bird 1984 Finals. He falls to 0-3 against Magic and the Lakers, and would've only had titles and one FMVP.

LeBron 2016 Finals. Obviously the crowning moment of his career and one of, if not the most epic title in league history. His legacy for sure takes a hit never delivering a title to Cleveland, but not as much as the previous 3 imo.

I couldn't choo


You're wrong on Lebron

Everyone knows that the Ray Allen shot saved Lebron's career

And btw, if Klay went to the Finals and destroyed Lebron - no one would say that winning those Finals was a goat achievement for Curry...

So the media mis-covers the 16' Finals because it was an easy ring.. Lebron had an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, so he never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals) like Curry did..

Heck, Lebron averaged 24 and 6 TO's for the first 4 games, so his preseason favorite super-team was down 1-3 because of him... And only the suspension to Draymond saved him

[SouBeachTalents]

You're wrong on Lebron

Everyone knows that the Ray Allen shot saved Lebron's career

And btw, if Klay went to the Finals and destroyed Lebron - no one would say that winning those Finals was a goat achievement for Curry...

So the media mis-covers the 16' Finals because it was an easy ring.. Lebron had an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, so he never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals) like Curry did..

Heck, Lebron averaged 24 and 6 TO's for the first 4 games, so his preseason favorite super-team was down 1-3 because of him... And only the suspension to Draymond saved him
Absolutely deranged.

[3ba11]

Absolutely deranged.


It's common knowledge that Ray Allen saved Lebron's career

If Ray misses that shot, Lebron is 1/4 in the Finals with 3 massive bed wettings or chokes in 07', 11' and 13'...

And it absolutely would've been a massive bed-wetting in the 13' Finals because Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games, while his 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games - it would've been considered a massive choke job if Ray missed

[Full Court]

It's common knowledge that Ray Allen saved Lebron's career

If Ray misses that shot, Lebron is 1/4 in the Finals with 3 massive bed wettings or chokes in 07', 11' and 13'...

And it absolutely would've been a massive bed-wetting in the 13' Finals because Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games, while his 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games - it would've been considered a massive choke job if Ray missed

I don't see how anyone can even try to dispute this.^

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody with 4 mvps a ring and finals mvp could have their career saved. If you’re already Moses Malone level you’re about 400 miles from needing a career saving anything.

That said….


Far as changing individual rankings?


Maybe 94 is up there. One shot is between Ewing having beat Hakeem for titles on both college and the nba. He might get top 20 talk and drop Hakeem into the same range.

Dirk in 11 is also a factor. Lebron with 5 is probably cemented second to everyone with far more saying he’s first and Dirk minus his is…I don’t know. Top 25?

[SouBeachTalents]

Nobody with 4 mvps a ring and finals mvp could have their career saved. If you’re already Moses Malone level you’re about 400 miles from needing a career saving anything.

That said….


Far as changing individual rankings?


Maybe 94 is up there. One shot is between Ewing having beat Hakeem for titles on both college and the nba. He might get top 20 talk and drop Hakeem into the same range.

Dirk in 11 is also a factor. Lebron with 5 is probably cemented second to everyone with far more saying he’s first and Dirk minus his is…I don’t know. Top 25?
The craziest one to me is KD vs. the Bucks. That would've changed SO much about the current status of the league. If his toe is behind the line the Nets definitely make the Finals and would've been the favorites to win it all. They win the title I seriously doubt Harden gets traded, so they would've been better suited to survive Kyrie's vaccine fiasco that consumed all of last year, and they wouldn't be the absolute dumpster fire they've been since the Celtics series. KD likely has 3 FMVP's, and even with the dismissal of his Warrior rings, would be in legit top 10 discussions.

Meanwhile, Giannis would still be seen as this ringless loser and considered a playoff choker.

[ImKobe]

Nope. Kobe already had a great playoff run and was at the tail end of his prime and played hurt all POs. He'd still have 4 titles and 7 Finals appearances and one of the best scoring peaks ever.

[Axe]

Nope. Kobe already had a great playoff run and was at the tail end of his prime and played hurt all POs. He'd still have 4 titles and 7 Finals appearances and one of the best scoring peaks ever.
Good thing pau gasol was there to bail him out.

[RRR3]

I’m not sure how much it affects Kobe’s legacy people give him a lot of shit for that finals even though he won and he already had won a ring without Shaq at that point anyways.

[Red Pill Sports]

It's common knowledge that Ray Allen saved Lebron's career

If Ray misses that shot, Lebron is 1/4 in the Finals with 3 massive bed wettings or chokes in 07', 11' and 13'...

And it absolutely would've been a massive bed-wetting in the 13' Finals because Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games, while his 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games - it would've been considered a massive choke job if Ray missed

This^

For as much as his fanboys gush about his Game 7 performance, he had been mostly trash through the first 5 games with Game 4 as his only good showing.

And there's the simple fact that Game 7 doesn't happen at all if Allen misses that three. Add on the fact that San Antonio wasn't even favored to reach the Finals in 2013 while Miami won 66 games and had a 27 win streak, and Bron's legacy only looks worse without that shot.

[RRR3]

Snivelball creating alts to back himself up. Sad

[Spurs m8]

It's common knowledge that Ray Allen saved Lebron's career

If Ray misses that shot, Lebron is 1/4 in the Finals with 3 massive bed wettings or chokes in 07', 11' and 13'...

And it absolutely would've been a massive bed-wetting in the 13' Finals because Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games, while his 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games - it would've been considered a massive choke job if Ray missed

Absolutely this.

And let's not even go into the fact that LeBarry bricked that shot seconds before....

[warriorfan]

The biggest legacy changers imo, and I'm only doing series were the outcome was actually in doubt.

Shaq 2000 WCF. He loses the 3peat mystique, his 2000 season takes a colossal hit, they would've blown a 3-1 lead with Shaq scoring just 18 points in Game 7, and he misses out on having the GOAT tier 2000 Finals.

Kobe 2010 Finals. So much changes for him here, he drops to 0-2 against Boston, would've only had one FMVP and title without Shaq, and if he loses going 6/24? That literally becomes one of the most infamous performances of all time. Hell, he won and it still sort of is :lol

Bird 1984 Finals. He falls to 0-3 against Magic and the Lakers, and would've ended up with just 2 titles and one FMVP.

LeBron 2016 Finals. Obviously the crowning moment of his career and one of, if not the most epic title in league history. His legacy for sure takes a hit never delivering a title to Cleveland, but not as much as the previous 3 imo.

I couldn't choose from the 3 or 4 series Hakeem faced elimination during his title runs, but one of those would've probably rounded out my top 5.

HM: Wilt '68 ECF, Duncan '05 Finals, Kareem '74 Finals, Magic '88 Finals

this would be tru if lebron didn’t influence silver to retroactively upgrade the floor call on draymond to a flagrant getting in suspended for a close out back door sweep game 5 at home

and curry was injured

it’s an asterisk ring

[John8204]

Walton in 77 is a big one...Dr J or Kareem would have won that year which would have either been #7 for Kareem or #4 for Dr J with his 2 NBA titles coming against Kareem the best player in the NBA.

Dirk in 11 partly for Lebron if he doesn't make 5 but it gets Jason Kidd a ring that elevates his legacy, Wade gets 4 which clearly puts him ahead of AI and Gervin as a top five SG, and Dirk gets a big legacy push over a number of his contemporaries especially at his position.

But the real answer is 1970 when the Knicks/Lakers went seven games...that would have had a huge effect on a number of players legacies.

1. Elgin Baylor wins a ring
2. Lebron's Final win percentage takes a huge hit without Elgin, West, and Wilt's numbers
3. Jerry West 100% wins another FMVP and that carries him over to beat Kareem for the 71-72 MVP (that he came in second)
4. Michael Jordan is no longer capped with the MVP record thanks to Kareem so he wins some more MVPS
5. That has a trickle down effect on Malone and Barkley
6. Wilt gets a third ring that puts him at a higher level
7. Debuscherre doesn't make the top 75 list
8. Frazier and Reed both fall out of the all-time top ten for their position list

[coastalmarker99]

Walton in 77 is a big one...Dr J or Kareem would have won that year which would have either been #7 for Kareem or #4 for Dr J with his 2 NBA titles coming against Kareem the best player in the NBA.

Dirk in 11 partly for Lebron if he doesn't make 5 but it gets Jason Kidd a ring that elevates his legacy, Wade gets 4 which clearly puts him ahead of AI and Gervin as a top five SG, and Dirk gets a big legacy push over a number of his contemporaries especially at his position.

But the real answer is 1970 when the Knicks/Lakers went seven games...that would have had a huge effect on a number of players legacies.

1. Elgin Baylor wins a ring
2. Lebron's Final win percentage takes a huge hit without Elgin, West, and Wilt's numbers
3. Jerry West 100% wins another FMVP and that carries him over to beat Kareem for the 71-72 MVP (that he came in second)
4. Michael Jordan is no longer capped with the MVP record thanks to Kareem so he wins some more MVPS
5. That has a trickle down effect on Malone and Barkley
6. Wilt gets a third ring that puts him at a higher level
7. Debuscherre doesn't make the top 75 list
8. Frazier and Reed both fall out of the all-time top ten for their position list


Wilt would have won the FMVP had the Lakers won in 1970 as he averaged 23PPG/24RPG/4APG on 62FG% in those finals despite coming off a serious knee injury.

[coastalmarker99]

Wilt is an interesting case cause he has so many times where his legacy would have been boosted massively with a bit more luck

1962 if Sam Jones misses that game-winner.

1965 if Havlicek doesn't steal the ball

1968 If Billy C was healthy

1973 If Jerry was healthy vs New York.



However, on the flip side, he could have been even unluckier and lost to a healthier bucks team in 72 and have only one ring.

[Johnny32]

isn't 2010 gm 7 the finals coby shot like 2-30 from the field and the refs gave lal 50 4th qtr fts for the win? people actually count that as a legacy defining win? that's hilarious to me.

[Overdrive]

2000 WCF is a good call.

I think 2012 ECF G6 is similar. If Lebron doesn't put up this AT performance it completely chances the legacy of not only him, but either Durant/Westbrook/Harden or the Celtics' big 4.

I think not winning in '12 would've been way harder to swallow for Lebron than Ray Allen not hitting that shot. Not getting over the hump of that 1st championship I think does way more to you mentally than lose one later.

Kawhi not hitting that G7 buzzer of course is also career altering for quite some players.
Dirk, Wilt, Giannas/KD were already mentioned. Maybe either the Raptors nor the Bucks losing in 2001 deserve a mention. I think the Bucks were better suited to put up a fight against the Lakers.

Alan Houston's shot maybe. I think the Heat would've made the finals. That was Zoo's peak year legacy wise and they lose to the original version of Kawhi's buzzer.

[WhiteKyrie]

Nope. Kobe already had a great playoff run and was at the tail end of his prime and played hurt all POs. He'd still have 4 titles and 7 Finals appearances and one of the best scoring peaks ever.

Agreed.

[Hey Yo]

It's common knowledge that Ray Allen saved Lebron's career

If Ray misses that shot, Lebron is 1/4 in the Finals with 3 massive bed wettings or chokes in 07', 11' and 13'...

And it absolutely would've been a massive bed-wetting in the 13' Finals because Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games, while his 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games - it would've been considered a massive choke job if Ray missed

If Ray misses, there's still 5 seconds left with the chance to get an offensive rebound and another 3PA.

Spurs got a free timeout and a chance to win game 6 in regulation but Parker missed the shot.

[Hey Yo]

this would be tru if lebron didn’t influence silver to retroactively upgrade the floor call on draymond to a flagrant getting in suspended for a close out back door sweep game 5 at home

and curry was injured

it’s an asterisk ring

Link to LeBron directly influencing Silver's decision?


15 outta 66 ..... :oldlol:

[Red Pill Sports]

If Ray misses, there's still 5 seconds left with the chance to get an offensive rebound and another 3PA.

Spurs got a free timeout and a chance to win game 6 in regulation but Parker missed the shot.

And there's no guarantee they get another offensive board if Allen misses. The fact is he saved LeBron's legacy with that shot.