MVP Doncic drops 42/13/10

[Doomsday Dallas]

On the 9-3 Blazers too. He's now 34/9/8 on the season.

[theman93]

He's a bad boy. But he can be taken advantage of on the defensive side of the ball.

[WhiteKyrie]

Best player in the league.


He's a bad boy. But he can be taken advantage of on the defensive side of the ball.
So can every other elite player in the league now a days.

Leonard played defense, that’s it, and he’s always out.

No one ever says this for any other player. Why? Bruvas are angry.

[Spurs m8]

Euros dominating

[theman93]

Best player in the league.


So can every other elite player in the league now a days.

Leonard played defense, that’s it, and he’s always out.

No one ever says this for any other player. Why? Bruvas are angry.

When Golden State played the Spurs and Raptors with Kawhi, they weren’t setting picks to get the switch to make Kawhi the defender against the ball handler. That’s exactly what they did to Luka last year in the WCF. They sought him and exploited him on the defensive side of the ball.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Best player in the league.


So can every other elite player in the league now a days.

Leonard played defense, that’s it, and he’s always out.

No one ever says this for any other player. Why? Bruvas are angry.

You seem to have forgotten than Antetokuonmpo has a DPoY trophy.

[bdonovan]

MVP? Not with those shooting percentages.

[RRR3]

You seem to have forgotten than Antetokuonmpo has a DPoY trophy.
He didn't forget, he just hates black people.

[Lebron23]

When Golden State played the Spurs and Raptors with Kawhi, they weren’t setting picks to get the switch to make Kawhi the defender against the ball handler. That’s exactly what they did to Luka last year in the WCF. They sought him and exploited him on the defensive side of the ball.

I thought you guys are the same people.

[ImKobe]

Averaging 34/9/8/2 on 60%TS through 12 games so far

He's currently leading the league in scoring, PER, WS/48, BPM & VORP

lol @ clowns putting Tatum anywhere close to his level, Luka is on another planet offensively.

[Full Court]

Best player in the league.


So can every other elite player in the league now a days.

Leonard played defense, that’s it, and he’s always out.

No one ever says this for any other player. Why? Bruvas are angry.

Giannis.

[Full Court]

Luka lost again. He either needs to learn how to run a team offense or he'll end up with a legacy as just another stat padder.

[tontoz]

Only 5 3 point attempts. That is probably what his average should be.

The times I have watched him it looks like he is putting more effort into defense. He is anticipating what the offense is going to do and disrupting a lot of plays.

[WhiteKyrie]

When Golden State played the Spurs and Raptors with Kawhi, they weren’t setting picks to get the switch to make Kawhi the defender against the ball handler. That’s exactly what they did to Luka last year in the WCF. They sought him and exploited him on the defensive side of the ball.
And? Why does it need to be brought up? What other great player in todays league plays defense? The answer, almost none. Giannis and Embiid withstanding as centers. I just said Leonard was a rare exception of a quality defender as a superstar on the perimeter. It’s obviously not a problem big enough to off set his insane production offensively. The truth is black dudes want to pepper that slight in there to off set all the warranted hype he’s getting. Shit KD, LeBron, don’t play good perimeter defense. Guys like Harden who when he was putting up numbers was far worse than Luka, but we didn’t hear comments like this baked into every discussion about praise for him.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Tatum is starting to get some mvp buzz and he also defends at a high level. There have always been great players that defend. It's one of the things that can make a player great like any other aspect of basketball.

[90sgoat]

Luka now scores 65% on his 2 point attempts. That's insane. That's Shaq like efficiency.

He is also now the best post scorer in the league with a 1 point differential to Zion at 2nd. 3rd in points pr. postup. I dont think people realize how good this is. This is like prime Charles Barkley territory.

I hope Luka understands that he can be by far the most efficient if he keeps using the post as his primary weapon. He is literally unguardable by guards. Creates a ton of mismatches and leading to open 3s.

What we saw the Portland game is that he now is making the simple pass too, so that the ball swings to the open man, doesn't have to hunt for the assist. If they get this down, it opens up a whole different ballgame, because they can send defenses scrambling just from posting up Luka.

[90sgoat]

Only 5 3 point attempts. That is probably what his average should be.

The times I have watched him it looks like he is putting more effort into defense. He is anticipating what the offense is going to do and disrupting a lot of plays.

Luka is now 4th in steals with 2 per game. Ahead of players like Butler, Paul, Jrue, PG.

It's not to say he's a good defender, but as you say, he uses his brain on defense now. It's a question of consistent effort.

[Mask the Embiid]

NeDz MoAr Help!

[Real Men Wear Green]

NeDz MoAr Help!

...what?

[Phoenix]

Luka now scores 65% on his 2 point attempts. That's insane. That's Shaq like efficiency.

He is also now the best post scorer in the league with a 1 point differential to Zion at 2nd. 3rd in points pr. postup. I dont think people realize how good this is. This is like prime Charles Barkley territory.

I hope Luka understands that he can be by far the most efficient if he keeps using the post as his primary weapon. He is literally unguardable by guards. Creates a ton of mismatches and leading to open 3s.

What we saw the Portland game is that he now is making the simple pass too, so that the ball swings to the open man, doesn't have to hunt for the assist. If they get this down, it opens up a whole different ballgame, because they can send defenses scrambling just from posting up Luka.

That's the big difference with him and Harden, who is superficially often the closest styliistic comparison. Harden doesn't have that in-between game and if he couldn't get to the rim, and he has one of his '1/10' 3 point nights, he craters( see multiple playoff runs). And it shows in how much he's dropped off the last 2-3 years. Not even an age thing because Curry and KD are a year older(crazy to think Steph is 35 in 4 months), and have shown barely any offensive dropoff compared to their peaks.

I wish he would switch out 3-4 threes for a few more post-ups. He's not a consistently good enough range shooter to be taking 8 a game. But yeah, operating from the post as he does with the passing ability to find open shooters is becoming a pick your poision.

[tontoz]

That's the big difference with him and Harden, who is superficially often the closest styliistic comparison. Harden didn't have that in-between game and if he couldn't get to the rim, and he has one of his '1/10' 3 point nights, he couldn't operate in the high post area or muscle inside. And it shows in how much he's dropped off the l2-3 years. Not even an age thing because Curry and KD are a year older( crazy to think Steph is 35 in 4 months), and have shown barely any offensive dropoff compared to their peaks.

I wish he would switch out 3-4 threes for a few more post-ups. He's not a consistently good enough range shooter to be taking 8 a game. But yeah, operating from the post as he does with the passing ability to find open shooters is becoming a pick your poision.


A big difference between Luka and harden is that Luka drives to score, not bait the refs. He isn't throwing up garbage shots flailing his arms trying to get a call. That is probably a big reason why his playoff performances are so much better than Harden's.

[Phoenix]

A big difference between Luka and harden is that Luka drives to score, not bait the refs. He isn't throwing up garbage shots flailing his arms trying to get a call. That is probably a big reason why his playoff performances are so much better than Harden's.

Yes that's another big difference, combined with the fact that Luka actually has an in-between game. Harden is 3's and layups.

[90sgoat]

That's the big difference with him and Harden, who is superficially often the closest styliistic comparison. Harden doesn't have that in-between game and if he couldn't get to the rim, and he has one of his '1/10' 3 point nights, he craters( see multiple playoff runs). And it shows in how much he's dropped off the l2-3 years. Not even an age thing because Curry and KD are a year older( crazy to think Steph is 35 in 4 months), and have shown barely any offensive dropoff compared to their peaks.

I wish he would switch out 3-4 threes for a few more post-ups. He's not a consistently good enough range shooter to be taking 8 a game. But yeah, operating from the post as he does with the passing ability to find open shooters is becoming a pick your poision.

You're right and Luka isn't even reliable from the midrange yet or as a spot up shooter.

[Phoenix]

You're right and Luka isn't even reliable from the midrange yet or as a spot up shooter.

He's got a much improved fadeaway, though. It's lights out if he added spot-up shooting.

[90sgoat]

He's got a much improved fadeaway, though. It's lights out if he added spot-up shooting.

It's close to lights out already, I think for Luka, it's more about energy conservation. He needs to play in a way that uses the least amount of energy on offense, so that he can actually play defense. This is his major issue. The post ups really help with that, but if he was able to stand around on the wing and hit some 3s that would also help a lot.

We will see, also needs to improve his FT shooting, which I thought was improved, but apparantly not. He does shoot 4 more FTs pr. game this season, which might explain something there, when his average is still the same.

[AirBonner]

Best player in the league.


So can every other elite player in the league now a days.

Leonard played defense, that’s it, and he’s always out.

No one ever says this for any other player. Why? Bruvas are angry.

Tatum plays defense better than anyone not named Robert Williams

[Phoenix]

It's close to lights out already, I think for Luka, it's more about energy conservation. He needs to play in a way that uses the least amount of energy on offense, so that he can actually play defense. This is his major issue. The post ups really help with that, but if he was able to stand around on the wing and hit some 3s that would also help a lot.

We will see, also needs to improve his FT shooting, which I thought was improved, but apparantly not. He does shoot 4 more FTs pr. game this season, which might explain something there, when his average is still the same.

He probably expends more energy dribbling himself into a space to get off a three. You can basically 'rest' on offense relatively speaking operating out of the post.

[beau_boy04]

Doncic usage rate so far this season is way up there. may finish #1 all-time for a single season lol.

[theman93]

And? Why does it need to be brought up? What other great player in todays league plays defense? The answer, almost none. Giannis and Embiid withstanding as centers. I just said Leonard was a rare exception of a quality defender as a superstar on the perimeter. It’s obviously not a problem big enough to off set his insane production offensively. The truth is black dudes want to pepper that slight in there to off set all the warranted hype he’s getting. Shit KD, LeBron, don’t play good perimeter defense. Guys like Harden who when he was putting up numbers was far worse than Luka, but we didn’t hear comments like this baked into every discussion about praise for him.

It needs to be brought up because he is exploitable on the defensive side of the ball. Guys like Tatum and Giannis are not. Nobody seeks them as a matchup on the defensive side of the ball like they do Luka.

[theman93]

Tatum is starting to get some mvp buzz and he also defends at a high level. There have always been great players that defend. It's one of the things that can make a player great like any other aspect of basketball.

Yep. Tatum is easily a plus help and iso defender.

If Luka's shot isn't falling he's a net negative because he keeps shooting and the good offenses exploit him in iso's.

[Full Court]

Luka is one of the top offensive talents in the league right now, if not the very top.

The problem is that in the Dallas games I've watched this year, there's too much of Luka keeping the ball for entire possessions while the rest of the team stands there and watches him do his thing. It's kind of like '88 or '89 Jordan, who was the best player in the league, but did too much heroics while his teammates stood around watching. It's not a recipe for team success. If Luka can adapt his game to a more team-success approach like Jordan did, the Mavs might get somewhere.

[ShawkFactory]

Luka is one of the top offensive talents in the league right now, if not the very top.

The problem is that in the Dallas games I've watched this year, there's too much of Luka keeping the ball for entire possessions while the rest of the team stands there and watches him do his thing. It's kind of like '88 or '89 Jordan, who was the best player in the league, but did too much heroics while his teammates stood around watching. It's not a recipe for team success. If Luka can adapt his game to a more team-success approach like Jordan did, the Mavs might get somewhere.

I think Luka does have the DNA in him to be able to play the team game, he just needs the players to do so.

His biggest issue is that you can really get after him defensively. Guys like Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron were either really good to great on that end.

[90sgoat]

Kidd has been trying a lot more team oriented style these last 5 games.

It's too early to say if Luka will accept it, some signs in losses of no, but then played well within the system last game.

The issue with Mavs is that if they want to play Luka more off ball, they need to fundamentally change the system to more of a motion system, because players like Finney-Smith, Powell and Bullock are completely useless with the drible. Can't create at all.

They need to get one more dynamic ball handler. Dinwiddie is good, but he picks his spots a lot, so you need someone like Brunson who can get his own.

[FultzNationRISE]

Kidd has been trying a lot more team oriented style these last 5 games.

It's too early to say if Luka will accept it, some signs in losses of no, but then played well within the system last game.

The issue with Mavs is that if they want to play Luka more off ball, they need to fundamentally change the system to more of a motion system, because players like Finney-Smith, Powell and Bullock are completely useless with the drible. Can't create at all.

They need to get one more dynamic ball handler. Dinwiddie is good, but he picks his spots a lot, so you need someone like Brunson who can get his own.


Lebron?

[90sgoat]

Lebron?

If he wants to come off the bench, sure.

Tim Hardaway Junior is just as bad on defense.

[WhiteKyrie]

It needs to be brought up because he is exploitable on the defensive side of the ball. Guys like Tatum and Giannis are not. Nobody seeks them as a matchup on the defensive side of the ball like they do Luka.

Nah you’re probably just black and salty a white dude is the best player in basketball. Let’s be honest.

[theman93]

Nah you’re probably just black and salty a white dude is the best player in basketball. Let’s be honest.

No, I'm white lol. I could give a rip about skin color.

[WhiteKyrie]

No, I'm white lol. I could give a rip about skin color.

Well unfortunately it plays a factor in this conversation. And is blatantly obvious.

[ShawkFactory]

Well unfortunately it plays a factor in this conversation. And is blatantly obvious.

He just said he was white so obviously it is not a factor in this conversation :lol

He's right about what he said. Giannis is the best player in basketball. And his dominance of defense is a big reason for it.

[RRR3]

Nah you’re probably just black and salty a white dude is the best player in basketball. Let’s be honest.
He has zero case over Giannis.

[MavAlbert]

It needs to be brought up because he is exploitable on the defensive side of the ball. Guys like Tatum and Giannis are not. Nobody seeks them as a matchup on the defensive side of the ball like they do Luka.


LUKA seeks them out...

[John8204]

He has zero case over Giannis.

Yeah if you ignore SPG, APG, and PPG but other than that

[Phoenix]

Yeah if you ignore SPG, APG, and PPG but other than that

RPG and BPG favor Giannis, but you'd expect those numbers to favor him just as you'd expect APG and SPG to favor Luka.

Giannis per36 also averages 34.6ppg to 33.5ppg for Luka. Obviously Luka has more in his bag in terms of scoring skills, but the biggest difference between the two is Giannis being a DPOY talent while their scoring volume difference is insignificant when you consider that Luka plays 4 more minutes a night. Luka's made strides defensively but he's not in Giannis' stratosphere of defensive impact.

[John8204]

That wasn't what RRR said though...he said Luka had zero case over Giannis.

Personally I don't think Giannis should get a third MVP until he wins another ring or even makes another trip to the finals. Giving someone a third MVP means they have to be in the top 15-20 all-time which Giannis is about 3-4 seasons away from being in that discussion.

[Phoenix]

That wasn't what RRR said though...he said Luka had zero case over Giannis.

Personally I don't think Giannis should get a third MVP until he wins another ring or even makes another trip to the finals. Giving someone a third MVP means they have to be in the top 15-20 all-time which Giannis is about 3-4 seasons away from being in that discussion.

I know what he said, and I don't believe he has a real case. I don't know about zero but its not much of one. You retorted with a stat argument which always requires context, like pointing out that Luka plays 4 more minutes to average 3 more ppg. Its not a bullet poilet point that favors him when you peek under the hood.

[Real Men Wear Green]

That wasn't what RRR said though...he said Luka had zero case over Giannis.

Personally I don't think Giannis should get a third MVP until he wins another ring or even makes another trip to the finals. Giving someone a third MVP means they have to be in the top 15-20 all-time which Giannis is about 3-4 seasons away from being in that discussion.
Giving someone a third MVP means they are the most valuable player for a third different season. It's not a lifetime achievement award. Voters shouldn't vote anyone over Antetokuonmpo just because they worry the third mvp means he's rated over Dr J. If they think Luka is better then that's a legit reason. Not historical perspective.

[John8204]

You are talking about how things should be over how they are, MJ and Lebron both had their MVP totals capped because of historical perspective Giannis isn't a special enough player to change the social norms of the award.

[tontoz]

IMO having 2 MVPs works against Giannis and Jokic. Voters seem to prefer a new story as opposed to giving another award to someone who already has 2. I think the bar is really high for those two.

[John8204]

I know what he said, and I don't believe he has a real case. I don't know about zero but its not much of one. You retorted with a stat argument which always requires context, like pointing out that Luka plays 4 more minutes to average 3 more ppg. Its not a bullet poilet point that favors him when you peek under the hood.

Luka is winning the scoring title right now after making the conference finals and being arguably the best player in the league last year. And once again the retort wasn't that Luka doesn't have a case but that RRR said Luka has zero case. Vegas has them neck and neck so peoples actual money is going to one of two players...Luka or Giannis

https://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/mvp/

[Real Men Wear Green]

You are talking about how things should be over how they are, MJ and Lebron both had their MVP totals capped because of historical perspective Giannis isn't a special enough player to change the social norms of the award.
That entirely depends on the individual voter. They are not required to apply anyone's standard but their own. You think MJ was stopped by historical perspective but that isn't a rule anyone had to follow. 4 years passed between Jordan's 3rd and 4th MVPs and then one year between 4th and 5th. Last MVP in '98...but people were saying he was the greatest ever before he played on the Dream Team. So what imaginary historical standard did he surpass in 96, fail in 97, and then pass in 98?

There are no "social norms." There is a select group of media members that get a vote, and they are not ordered to compare Giannis to MJ to decide their vote.

[John8204]

That entirely depends on the individual voter. They are not required to apply anyone's standard but their own. You think MJ was stopped by historical perspective but that isn't a rule anyone had to follow. 4 years passed between Jordan's 3rd and 4th MVPs and then one year between 4th and 5th. Last MVP in '98...but people were saying he was the greatest ever before he played on the Dream Team. So what imaginary historical standard did he surpass in 96, fail in 97, and then pass in 98?

There are no "social norms." There is a select group of media members that get a vote, and they are not ordered to compare Giannis to MJ to decide their vote.

In the 86/87 season Jordan averaged 37 PPG only time in NBA history a player broke into one of Wilt's top five GOAT seasons...he lost that MVP to Magic. Why did Magic get the MVP over Jordan...was it because Magic was better or because Larry had just gotten three in a row and they needed to award Magic the MVP. The league didn't want to give MVP's to guys that didn't go far in the playoffs.

88/89 Jordan 30 PPG loses again to Magic, he doesn't have a chip so it's okay
89/90 Stockton breaks the APG record that has never been broken since and they give the MVP not to Stockton but to Magic...Jazz are a 50 win team this season. Jordan has another 30PPG season and he drops below Barkley for third.

Magic dips below 20PPG so finally Jordan gets his second MVP...following season writers have no choice they aren't going to give it to Malone, Drexler, and Robinson Jordan get's his third and ties it up with Magic/Bird

Barkley who is a good player but not a great one leaves Philly after a bad season and joins a Phoenix team and even though Jordan is the defending champ and the scoring champ they don't give Jordan his fourth MVP they give it to Barkley.

Jordan was able to return and three peat again which allowed him to surpass Larry and Magic but he was 100% capped (as was John Stockton but that's a whole other thing)

[Phoenix]

Luka is winning the scoring title right now after making the conference finals and being arguably the best player in the league last year. And once again the retort wasn't that Luka doesn't have a case but that RRR said Luka has zero case. Vegas has them neck and neck so peoples actual money is going to one of two players...Luka or Giannis

https://www.vegasinsider.com/nba/odds/mvp/

Nobody is winning anything after a month. You mean he's currently leading the scoring race? Sure, theres 'only' like 70 games left to go.

You used stats in reply to RR3, so clearly your premise for there being 'zero' case was based around Lukas perceived statistical edge in scoring( not really when you look at their respective minutes), and assists/steals which are numbers you expect guards to have higher numbers in, same as you'd expect Giannis rebounding and block numbers to be higher than a guards. If your intent was not to base whatever percentage exists for Luka on something other than PPG that there was no point bringing it up.

[Real Men Wear Green]

In the 86/87 season Jordan averaged 37 PPG only time in NBA history a player broke into one of Wilt's top five GOAT seasons...he lost that MVP to Magic. Why did Magic get the MVP over Jordan...was it because Magic was better or because Larry had just gotten three in a row and they needed to award Magic the MVP. The league didn't want to give MVP's to guys that didn't go far in the playoffs.His team was 8th seed in the east with a record of 40-42. And with that he was still second in voting. If MJ getting votes was tied to whatever imaginary standard you think exists why did he come in second? He got 10 first place votes. Why were those 10 voters allowed to give him first place votes? The historical standard you think applies would only apply in the mind of an indivdual voter that thought that way. I won't say that some voters don't compare players to what they have done in the past, get sick of voting for the same guy multiple times, etc. But it isn't uniform and only applies if the voter thinks that way. If Giannis is averaging over 30 and a DPoY level defender while his team is elite and no one else can match those three criteria he's the likely MVP.

[John8204]

These races are rarely close you should have 4-5-6 people in the mix every year but normally it just drops to 1 or 2 and the winning normally wins by a large margin. This is a reason why "social norms" are a factor because the voters act like a monolith you have this group think that pushes a winner up each season. I don't know how many MVP's won by less than 20% of the vote but I would guess it's under 3.

As for why Luka is going to win over Giannis (even though I think Giannis is the better player) Luka is going to be the scoring champion, last season he was the best single player in the NBA playoffs, and he's on pace for 30K.

[Phoenix]

These races are rarely close you should have 4-5-6 people in the mix every year but normally it just drops to 1 or 2 and the winning normally wins by a large margin. This is a reason why "social norms" are a factor because the voters act like a monolith you have this group think that pushes a winner up each season. I don't know how many MVP's won by less than 20% of the vote but I would guess it's under 3.

As for why Luka is going to win over Giannis (even though I think Giannis is the better player) Luka is going to be the scoring champion, last season he was the best single player in the NBA playoffs, and he's on pace for 30K.

The Mavs being a 55+ win team will be a bigger determining factor for winning MVP than Luka possibly winning the scoring title, what he did in the playoffs last year, or whether he reaches 30k points. That last bullet point isn't something we'll know much before the year 2035 and has no relevance to the MVP race.

[FultzNationRISE]

IMO having 2 MVPs works against Giannis and Jokic. Voters seem to prefer a new story as opposed to giving another award to someone who already has 2. I think the bar is really high for those two.

Well Jokic is definitely not in the running, he’s taken a big step back in scoring to give Murray and Porter more shots and hopefully get them back into offensive form. He’s assisting at a career high and obviously still has elite impact, but he wont have the stats for an MVP case regardless of the two-time-winner narrative.

If Giannis ends up with a clear-cut case based on the conventional criteria of stats and team record, I doubt he ends up penalized per se for having won two already. Altho if he’s in a dead heat tie with someone in voter minds, then yeah most will probably break the tie by going with a fresh recipient.