How much better was Kobe than Wade, really?

[HoopsNY]

I remember in the late 2000s, the conversation was between Kobe, LeBron, and Wade. While Wade doesn't have the resume Kobe had for his career, there are some interesting performances from the same years that do beg to ask the question.

'10 Wade vs. BOS: 33/6/7/2/2 on 65% TS%
'10 Kobe vs. BOS: 29/8/4/2/1 on 45% TS%

'11 Wade vs. DAL: 27/7/5/2/2 on 61% TS%
'11 Kobe vs. DAL: 23/3/3/2/0 on 49% TS%

'12 Wade vs. OKC: 23/6/5/1/1 on 53% TS%
'12 Kobe vs. OKC: 31/5/3/2/0 on 51% TS%

A lot of people will say Kobe was past his peak after 2010, but I'd argue so was Wade. We saw Wade win a title with less than prime Shaq, so how does he do with peak Shaq if he's on the Miami in 2005-2008?

I also recall thinking to myself that by the late 2000s, Wade was actually the better defensive player than Kobe. And these were during Kobe's peak years.

What's everyone else's thoughts?

[SouBeachTalents]

Peak for peak they're essentially equals. I'd give the slightest nod to Wade due to more consistent defense during his prime, ability to get higher percentage looks, better playmaking, and he performed noticeably better against tougher defenses like the Pistons & Celtics than Kobe did. I'd also say Wade's '09 RS & '06 PS > any of Kobe's.

This will be similar to KD & Kawhi. Like Kobe & Wade, KD will rank 10-15 spots, if not more, ahead of Kawhi, but peak for peak, they're essentially equals, and I might give the slight nod to Kawhi.

[Xiao Yao You]

I'd take Wade

[1987_Lakers]

When both were at their best they were pretty much on the same level. Kobe was always a better shooter than Wade, while Wade was a better slasher and passer. Wade just had injury issues and by the time he hit 30 he was pretty much past his prime, which is why Kobe is the greater player. 2009 was a fun year, guys like LeBron & Wade took their game to another level, Kobe was still in his prime & CP3 was having one of the best seasons ever for a PG.

[HoopsNY]

Peak for peak they're essentially equals. I'd give the slightest nod to Wade due to more consistent defense during his prime, ability to get higher percentage looks, better playmaking, and he performed noticeably better against tougher defenses like the Pistons & Celtics than Kobe did. I'd also say Wade's '09 RS & '06 PS > any of Kobe's.

This will be similar to KD & Kawhi. Like Kobe & Wade, KD will rank 10-15 spots, if not more, ahead of Kawhi, but peak for peak, they're essentially equals, and I might give the slight nod to Kawhi.

Good points...

'04 Kobe vs. DET: 23/2/4/2/1 on 46% TS%
'05 Wade vs. DET: 26/5/4/2/1 on 52% TS%

[1987_Lakers]

As for defense, I always thought Kobe was very inconsistent despite making multiple all-defensive teams. When he put his mind into it he to me was a better man defender than Wade, but Wade to me was the more consistent defender.

[HoopsNY]

As for defense, I always thought Kobe was very inconsistent despite making multiple all-defensive teams. When he put his mind into it he to me was a better man defender than Wade, but Wade to me was the more consistent defender.

Wade was a better help defender and he was a pest defensively. I do agree that Kobe got a bit overrated later on in his career defensively. Anyone who watched 2006-2011 Wade would say that Wade was as good if not better than Kobe defensively.

This is a startling sample using four years of postseason play against the same teams, three of which happened in the same year. Kobe has an obvious advantage with Shaq, but I guess you can say Wade had the advantage with LeBron as well.

Either way you slice it, the two are very close and A LOT closer than the media and fan base would like to admit.

[SATAN]

I'd take peak Wade.

[SouBeachTalents]

Good points...

'04 Kobe vs. DET: 23/2/4/2/1 on 46% TS%
'05 Wade vs. DET: 26/5/4/2/1 on 52% TS%
And even here, Wade got hurt towards the end of that series and it skewed his averages. After a horrible Game 1 he was dominating Detroit until his injury in Game 5. He also had an excellent series against them in '06.

[ArbitraryWater]

peak Wade yeah but Kobe's prime was about 5 years longer

[ImKobe]

Wade faced the Celtics in the 1st round and lost in 5 games, that's not the same as fighting through 3 rounds, having your knee drained mid-Playoffs and then going 7 games in a very tough series. That one bad shooting night at the end of it tanked KB's averages but he had his share of great performances in there as well.

OP should mention that the rules changed after the '04 season and the Pistons weren't as elite on D when Wade played them the next year. Pistons went from a 95 DRTG in '04 to 101 in '05. Still, Wade's overall efficiency wasn't that much better though he wasn't a 100% by the end of the series, but KB re-aggravated his surgically-repaired shoulder in the '04 season and while his Finals numbers did look bad, that was very close to his level of play damn near all season as he was not healthy for the most part.

KB also played injured against the Mavs in '11 (knee problems all season, ankle injury in the 1st round).

Overall they are very close if you look at their peaks, but KB was always the more skilled player and thus had more longevity despite having knee issues himself.

[coastalmarker99]

Wade faced the Celtics in the 1st round and lost in 5 games, that's not the same as fighting through 3 rounds, having your knee drained mid-Playoffs and then going 7 games in a very tough series. That one bad shooting night at the end of it tanked KB's averages but he had his share of great performances in there as well.

OP should mention that the rules changed after the '04 season and the Pistons weren't as elite on D when Wade played them the next year. Pistons went from a 95 DRTG in '04 to 101 in '05. Still, Wade's overall efficiency wasn't that much better though he wasn't a 100% by the end of the series, but KB re-aggravated his surgically-repaired shoulder in the '04 season and while his Finals numbers did look bad, that was very close to his level of play damn near all season as he was not healthy for the most part.

KB also played injured against the Mavs in '11 (knee problems all season, ankle injury in the 1st round).

Overall they are very close if you look at their peaks, but KB was always the more skilled player and thus had more longevity despite having knee issues himself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB1bhtXirUU


The main reason the Lakers lost the 2004 Finals was Kobe being the most selfish player in finals history and trying to play hero ball instead of feeding the ball to Shaq which almost always worked.

Shaq crushed Ben or whoever was guarding him when he got his touches.

When the Lakers fed Shaq, their offence ran smoothly.

When they stopped feeding him, (largely due to Kobe's ball-hogging) their offence was atrocious.

Shaq getting more touches = an easy 2004 championship.


Furthermore Dwyane Wade just 1 and 2 years later, totally shred this Detroit Pistons team with penetration and getting good shots within the flow.

[WhiteKyrie]

Peak for Peak, equal.

Kobe had longer prime and longevity. Wade’s play style never evolved enough and injuries took their toll.

With that said after Jordan, they’re the best SGs I’ve ever seen. Wade more of a slasher and penetrator. Could dish. Good post game. Great off ball defender. Kobe more of a finesse, insanely skilled foot work jump shooter. Great on ball defender. Great post game.

Watching them both play together on the Redeem Team was a blast.

[Full Court]

Peak for Peak, equal.

Kobe had longer prime and longevity. Wade’s play style never evolved enough and injuries took their toll.

With that said after Jordan, they’re the best SGs I’ve ever seen. Wade more of a slasher and penetrator. Could dish. Good post game. Great off ball defender. Kobe more of a finesse, insanely skilled foot work jump shooter. Great on ball defender. Great post game.

Watching them both play together on the Redeem Team was a blast.

I was going to say pretty much this.

Equal peaks, but Kobe had more career accomplishments.

[WhiteKyrie]

I was going to say pretty much this.

Equal peaks, but Kobe had more career accomplishments.

I mean shit, if LeBron doesn’t get locked up and/or quit in 2011 Finals?

Wade has 4x rings and 2x Finals MVP. That’s basically Kobe’s resume.

With no regular season MVP however but his 2009 as good or better than any of the best Kobe seasons: 2001, 2003, 2006, 2008, 2009 etc.

And he was the best player in the league in 2007 before the shoulder injury. Think he was averaging 28/8/8 carrying corpses of good players on the Heat sans Shaq. Another MVP caliber season.

[Phoenix]

09 Wade was, for me, the best two-way season from a shooting guard since MJ's peak. And he was more or less on that level by 07 but was disrupted by the shoulder injury and injured in 08 as well ( don't recall from what at this moment).

As said above, Wade was able to better attack the Pistons and Celtics defenses that Kobe struggled against. Oddly had some seasons where his mid-range was spot on ( like the aforementioned 09) and some where it really wasn't. Comparable peaks overall, Kobe's game matured better and was less affected by age/injuries until the achilles. Wade basically came into the league with effed up knees, so to be as good as he was for as long as he was is a mini-miracle unto itself.

[HoopsNY]

Wade faced the Celtics in the 1st round and lost in 5 games, that's not the same as fighting through 3 rounds, having your knee drained mid-Playoffs and then going 7 games in a very tough series. That one bad shooting night at the end of it tanked KB's averages but he had his share of great performances in there as well.

OP should mention that the rules changed after the '04 season and the Pistons weren't as elite on D when Wade played them the next year. Pistons went from a 95 DRTG in '04 to 101 in '05. Still, Wade's overall efficiency wasn't that much better though he wasn't a 100% by the end of the series, but KB re-aggravated his surgically-repaired shoulder in the '04 season and while his Finals numbers did look bad, that was very close to his level of play damn near all season as he was not healthy for the most part.

KB also played injured against the Mavs in '11 (knee problems all season, ankle injury in the 1st round).

Overall they are very close if you look at their peaks, but KB was always the more skilled player and thus had more longevity despite having knee issues himself.

These are good points and I did forget about the rule changes in 2005. Though, I don't think that it had as much of an effect on Wade as you might be thinking. Wade didn't hit a single three pointer in that series, and he was always more of a slasher than a perimeter player.

I'm also not sure it makes a difference that Wade put up the numbers he did against Boston in 2010 because it was just the 1st round. Boston was also fresh in the 1st round. So what goes for Miami goes for Boston as well.

In the second round of 2011, Miami faced Boston again, this time in the second round. Wade put up 30/7/5/2/1 on 62%. And certainly Wade was no stranger to playing with injuries as he did throughout these years, so I don't think it's fair to highlight Kobe's injuries while ignoring Wade's.

[ImKobe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB1bhtXirUU


The main reason the Lakers lost the 2004 Finals was Kobe being the most selfish player in finals history and trying to play hero ball instead of feeding the ball to Shaq which almost always worked.

Shaq crushed Ben or whoever was guarding him when he got his touches.

When the Lakers fed Shaq, their offence ran smoothly.

When they stopped feeding him, (largely due to Kobe's ball-hogging) their offence was atrocious.

Shaq getting more touches = an easy 2004 championship.


Furthermore Dwyane Wade just 1 and 2 years later, totally shred this Detroit Pistons team with penetration and getting good shots within the flow.

Again, this is just wrong. Shaq got way more touches/scoring opportunities in the Finals than he had all season, why do people keep parroting this dumb shit? Pistons loaded up on KB and left Shaq in man coverage.. Shaq was not in great shape and they exploited him on defense for it. Lakers were outmatched as a team and it was not as simple as Kobe just losing them the series.. it could have very easily been a sweep but KB had the one great game where they did win in OT.

Shaq was no longer that guy in '04, his scoring averages had dipped to 21.5 a game in the RS and he averaged 20.0 ppg in the first 3 rounds of the Playoffs. He had gained a lot of weight and was already in a decline. Despite all that, he put up 26.6 a game in the Finals which was way above his average in the RS & Playoffs.

Kobe was not "the most selfish player in Finals history", he had a 30.4 USG% to Shaq's 28.4% and Shaq had 30 more FTA than Kobe. Their worst loss was when Kobe only took 13 shots. Lakers struggled as a team, KB's efficiency was bad (as it had been all season as he was playing hurt, but people want to ignore this point) but the rest of the team was even worse in that series. Pistons simply had the better team and neither KB nor Shaq were close to what they had been from 00-03.

[RRR3]

These are good points and I did forget about the rule changes in 2005. Though I think that didn't as much of an effect on Wade as you might be thinking. Wade didn't hit a single three pointer in that series, and he was always more of a slasher than a perimeter player.

I'm also not sure it makes a difference that Wade put up the numbers he did against Boston in 2010 because it was just the 1st round. Boston was also fresh in the 1st round. So what goes for Miami goes for Boston as well.

In the second round of 2011, Miami faced Boston again, this time in the second round. Wade put up 30/7/5/2/1 on 62%. And certainly Wade was no stranger to playing with injuries as he did throughout these years, so I don't think it's fair to highlight Kobe's injuries while ignoring Wade's.
He thinks Kobe is better than LeBron and Kareem, he’s not gonna tolerate Wade talk even if peak for peak it’s reasonable.

[HoopsNY]

Again, this is just wrong. Shaq got way more touches/scoring opportunities in the Finals than he had all season, why do people keep parroting this dumb shit? Pistons loaded up on KB and left Shaq in man coverage.. Shaq was not in great shape and they exploited him on defense for it. Lakers were outmatched as a team and it was not as simple as Kobe just losing them the series.. it could have very easily been a sweep but KB had the one great game where they did win in OT.

Shaq was no longer that guy in '04, his scoring averages had dipped to 21.5 a game in the RS and he averaged 20.0 ppg in the first 3 rounds of the Playoffs. He had gained a lot of weight and was already in a decline. Despite all that, he put up 26.6 a game in the Finals which was way above his average in the RS & Playoffs.

Kobe was not "the most selfish player in Finals history", he had a 30.4 USG% to Shaq's 28.4% and Shaq had 30 more FTA than Kobe. Their worst loss was when Kobe only took 13 shots. Lakers struggled as a team, KB's efficiency was bad (as it had been all season as he was playing hurt, but people want to ignore this point) but the rest of the team was even worse in that series. Pistons simply had the better team and neither KB nor Shaq were close to what they had been from 00-03.

Because Kobe took 23 FGA per game whereas Shaq only took 17. This despite Kobe being injured (as you said). It's not a lie, really. It's what actually happened.

[Axe]

The funniest thing about this comparison is that it only took wade three seasons to win his first finals mvp while kobe about at least the quadruple of that.

[Phoenix]

He thinks Kobe is better than LeBron and Kareem, he’s not gonna tolerate Wade talk even if peak for peak it’s reasonable.

Pretty sure he thinks he's better than MJ too, so yeah any discussion about anyone else is a non-starter.

[ImKobe]

These are good points and I did forget about the rule changes in 2005. Though, I don't think that it had as much of an effect on Wade as you might be thinking. Wade didn't hit a single three pointer in that series, and he was always more of a slasher than a perimeter player.

I'm also not sure it makes a difference that Wade put up the numbers he did against Boston in 2010 because it was just the 1st round. Boston was also fresh in the 1st round. So what goes for Miami goes for Boston as well.

In the second round of 2011, Miami faced Boston again, this time in the second round. Wade put up 30/7/5/2/1 on 62%. And certainly Wade was no stranger to playing with injuries as he did throughout these years, so I don't think it's fair to highlight Kobe's injuries while ignoring Wade's.


The rule changes helped him too, he damn near doubled his FTA from his rookie season to his 2nd year and KB, VC, PP & AI all saw a rise in their FTr in the mid-2000s. KB's Finals numbers look really bad but not as bad if you put it in context with the season and POs he was having. He shot horribly (24 ppg on 41%FG) in the WCF and wasn't himself that whole season.

I will say that you can argue for Wade and make a legitimate point by using his 2006 Playoff run as a whole to argue for him. 28/6/6/2/1 on 59%TS with a 9.3 BPM is pretty close to prime/peak MJ territory and on par with Kobe's best (30/5/6/2/1 on 56.4%TS 9.1 BPM in '09 POs).

[HoopologyPhD]

Don't care who was better at bouncing a ball, Kobe>>>>DWade as a man and father and businessman, Wade has done nothing since leaving the NBA and Kobe's daughters are all still females.

[StrongLurk]

Kobe is better than Wade. Obviously there were a few close years.

For a modern comparison, Durant would equal Kobe, and Kawhi would equal Wade. A few seasons/playoffs, Kawhi was just as good as Durant and basically as good as anyone in the league. But just like Wade, Kawhi has had a short peak and an injury riddled prime.

[RRR3]

Pretty sure he thinks he's better than MJ too, so yeah any discussion about anyone else is a non-starter.
I tried giving him the benefit of the doubt on that but you’re probably right.

[ImKobe]

Because Kobe took 23 FGA per game whereas Shaq only took 17. This despite Kobe being injured (as you said). It's not a lie, really. It's what actually happened.

Again, Shaq took 30 more FTA and their usage rate was 2% apart man.. And Shaq played less minutes (42.6 mpg vs Kobe's 46.2, so KB took shots when Shaq wasn't on the court as well) due to some foul trouble and possibly fatigue. The whole team outside of Shaq & Kobe sucked ass too, especially since Malone got injured. Shaq could score but was a negative on defense, Shaq's scoring increased over 25% (20.0 to 26.6) from the first 3 rounds to the Finals but apparently KB was just selfish and didn't feed him enough.. it doesn't make sense.

[RRR3]

Again, Shaq took 30 more FTA and their usage rate was 2% apart man.. And Shaq played less minutes (42.6 mpg vs Kobe's 46.2, so KB took shots when Shaq wasn't on the court as well) due to some foul trouble and possibly fatigue. The whole team outside of Shaq & Kobe sucked ass too, especially since Malone got injured. Shaq could score but was a negative on defense, Shaq's scoring increased over 25% (20.0 to 26.6) from the first 3 rounds to the Finals but apparently KB was just selfish and didn't feed him enough.. it doesn't make sense.
Fuming.

[Naero]

Their peaks are debatably close. I think Kobe was the better all-around offensive player, though I'd lean towards Wade overall because of his comparative defensive consistency and scoring efficiency (mainly because he was the best post-MJ slashing SG). I also believe he had a better individual regular season (2009) and playoffs run (2006) than Kobe ever did.

Wade would have given more career value if he were healthy, and therein lies the problem: he rarely was season-long, in large part because of his meniscectomy back in college. It's chiefly for that reason I'd generally draft Kobe over him if I had to build around either.

[Rysio]

Kobe got way more defensive attention vs those same teams so it's not a good comparison. To me only thing wade has on kobe he's less likely to give up on taking it to the rim.

[Jay-B]

Wade was really good, but come on now he wasn’t as good as Kobe. Kobe was the closest thing to Jordan.

[WhiteKyrie]

Pretty sure he thinks he's better than MJ too, so yeah any discussion about anyone else is a non-starter.

He better not. That would be crazy as hell.

Prime / Peak MJ is basically combining prime / peak Kobe and Wade stylistically, and overall.

Also known as the greatest player of all time.

[Phoenix]

Kobe got way more defensive attention vs those same teams so it's not a good comparison. To me only thing wade has on kobe he's less likely to give up on taking it to the rim.

How do you figure that? When Kobe faced the Celtics he had Gasol. Wade when he faced the Celtics in 2010 was basically a solo act, there wasn't a single player other than Wade on the 2010 Heat who required defensive attention so they could load up on him, and he dropped 33/7/6 on 65% TS. I expect a Kobe fan to retort that 'the Celtics let Wade go off becauise nobody else was a threat', which is generally how these kinds of conversations go. Wade's ability to slither into the lane was without peer, compared to Kobe and even Lebron who struggled against this same Celtics squad in 2010.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHo5HA4yUtA

THis was the exact same Celtics squad that Kobe dropped 28/8/4 53% TS on,while having a teammate multitudes better in Gasol than anyone Wade had to work with.

[Phoenix]

He better not. That would be crazy as hell.

Prime / Peak MJ is basically combining prime / peak Kobe and Wade stylistically, and overall.

Also known as the greatest player of all time.

I'm fairly certain in past threads he's made the case for Kobe over MJ. Maybe not in terms of who's the 'greater' player in general, but who in terms of floor game was better and IIRC he goes with Kobe. I stand to be corrected on that.

[WhiteKyrie]

I'm fairly certain in past threads he's made the case for Kobe over MJ. Maybe not in terms of who's the 'greater' player in general, but who in terms of floor game was better and IIRC he goes with Kobe. I stand to be corrected on that.
That would be retardedly delusional. You agree on my assessment though, no?

[Phoenix]

That would be retardedly delusional. You agree on my assessment though, no?

As far as MJ's style? Yes I've always said that. MJ at his very peak basically combined Wade's slashing with Kobe's midrange scoring arsenal. Kobe added a few footwork twists and counters and extended on MJ's range( which is how the game was trending anyways, further and further away from the basket) but some of that was because MJ had natural athletic advantages that Kobe didn't. He would often take 2-3 hard dribbles,plant and explode off the ground for a jumper while the defender's momentum was working against him playing for the drive. Kobe would probably be more likely to start the drive, get to his spot, fake, pivot or do something else to create space. And Kobe generally had a better left hand in terms of finishing( not that MJ was bad). And it can't be overstated that MJ basically having center-sized hands just allowed him to manipulate the ball in ways that required him to do less in order to get off clean looks, while of course when in-air allowed him to contort the ball around the rim protector(s) and finish with flair.

[WhiteKyrie]

As far as MJ's style? Yes I've always said that. MJ at his very peak basically combined Wade's slashing with Kobe's midrange scoring arsenal. Kobe added a few footwork twists and counters and extended on MJ's range( which is how the game was trending anyways, further and further away from the basket) but some of that was because MJ had natural athletic advantages that Kobe didn't. He would often take 2-3 hard dribbles,plant and explode off the ground for a jumper while the defender's momentum was working against him playing for the drive. Kobe would probably be more likely to start the drive, get to his spot, fake, pivot or do something else to create space. And Kobe generally had a better left hand in terms of finishing( not that MJ was bad). And it can't be overstated that MJ basically having center-sized hands just allowed him to manipulate the ball in ways that required him to do less in order to get off clean looks.
Agreed but even defensively. Mike was great on ball and off ball. Wade was great off ball and Kobe when locked in was great on ball. He was both of them combined.

[Phoenix]

Agreed but even defensively. Mike was great on ball and off ball. Wade was great off ball and Kobe when locked in was great on ball. He was both of them combined.

He had a better motor than both, hence being able to be both the best offensive player and defensive guard in 88. Kobe at his offensive peak conserved his energy defensively, picked his spots, and tended to 'get up' for big matchups( which at that point would have been T-mac, Vince, Iverson, Wade, etc). The years he was dropping 31-35ppg he wasn't as great defensively as like 2008 when he was genuinely consistent and 'only' dropped 29 while having a legit 2nd option in Gasol. The closest I saw from Wade/Kobe in terms of being both dominant on offense while putting in the work consistently on defense was Wade in 2009. In fairness, that season was coming off the olympics 'Redeem Team' and Kobe is credited with helping guys like Wade and Lebron 'raise the bar' so to speak. The following season Wade had his best year and the start of Lebron's peak.

[WhiteKyrie]

He had a better motor than both, hence being able to be both the best offensive player and defensive guard in 88. Kobe at his offensive peak conserved his energy defensively, picked his spots, and tended to 'get up' for big matchups( which at that point would have been T-mac, Vince, Iverson, Wade, etc). The years he was dropping 31-35ppg he wasn't as great defensively as like 2008 when he was genuinely consistent and 'only' dropped 29 while having a legit 2nd option in Gasol. The closest I saw from Wade/Kobe in terms of being both dominant on offense while putting in the work consistently on defense was Wade in 2009. In fairness, that season was coming off the olympics 'Redeem Team' and Kobe is credited with helping guys like Wade and Lebron 'raise the bar' so to speak. The following season Wade had his best year and the start of Lebron's peak.
Facts. Kobe had how many all team defense that you actually think was reputation based on not objective? I could’ve sworn there’s even a few years there were Phil Jackson didn’t think it was deserved. I also think there was a few years Dwyane Wade, and even Kirk Hinrich got the shaft in terms of all defensive teams for guards

[John8204]

For me it's not even close...Wade is a hall of famer but he's always been the guy that helps the star not the star himself. 20 years from now he'll be considers with Harden, McHale, Worthy, Dumars, and Pippen. Unfortunately people grew up with him so they've inflated his generation. Kobe on the other hand is the second best Shooting Guard of all-time that doesn't go away with time.

[Phoenix]

Facts. Kobe had how many all team defense that you actually think was reputation based on not objective? I could’ve sworn there’s even a few years there were Phil Jackson didn’t think it was deserved. I also think there was a few years Dwyane Wade, and even Kirk Hinrich got the shaft in terms of all defensive teams for guards

I would say the majority of the seasons where he carried the lions share of the offense without a reliable offensive running mate. All NBA first team in 2005, 2006, 2007? I don't know about that. I'd also give first team nods to Wade over Kobe in 2009, 2010 and Tony Allen over him in 2011.

[Phoenix]

For me it's not even close...Wade is a hall of famer but he's always been the guy that helps the star not the star himself. 20 years from now he'll be considers with Harden, McHale, Worthy, Dumars, and Pippen. Unfortunately people grew up with him so they've inflated his generation. Kobe on the other hand is the second best Shooting Guard of all-time that doesn't go away with time.

I grew up with Kobe moreso than Wade( he was a year younger than me) and there's no nostalgia clouding my mindset here. Peaks are comparable, Kobe was more durable, skillset better evolved, and is 10-15 spots higher on the all-time list, but Wade at his absolute best( albeit briefly) vs Kobe is absolutely a conversation no matter where you land.

[SouBeachTalents]

For me it's not even close...Wade is a hall of famer but he's always been the guy that helps the star not the star himself. 20 years from now he'll be considers with Harden, McHale, Worthy, Dumars, and Pippen. Unfortunately people grew up with him so they've inflated his generation. Kobe on the other hand is the second best Shooting Guard of all-time that doesn't go away with time.
Especially in '06. And I'm pretty sure you have Shaq with those guys as well.

[Phoenix]

Especially in '06. And I'm pretty sure you have Shaq with those guys as well.

IIRC Shaq isn't in that posters top 20.

[Legend248]

How dumb are people in here ? Seriously? All yall are ****ing stupid, if you have a problem with me, DM me, ill whip your ass

[John8204]

IIRC Shaq isn't in that posters top 20.

It's really not that complicated

Lebron > Kobe > Duncan > Dirk >Shaq > KG > Iverson > Kidd > Wade
(Top 5) (Top 10) (Top 15) (Top 20) (Top 25) (Top 25) (Top 30) (Top 35) (Top 40)


Especially in '06. And I'm pretty sure you have Shaq with those guys as well.

The guys I have close to Shaq are Kevin Garnett, Chris Paul, Elgin Baylor, Charles Barkley, Bob Pettit, Dirk Nowitzki, John Havlicek, George Gervin, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Walt Frazier, and Rick Barry. All of which I would rank ahead of Wade.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's really not that complicated

Lebron > Kobe > Duncan > Dirk >Shaq > KG > Iverson > Kidd > Wade
(Top 5) (Top 10) (Top 15) (Top 20) (Top 25) (Top 25) (Top 30) (Top 35) (Top 40)
https://www.rayanesbhomes.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/91IB8lkkOwL._AC_SL1500_-1.jpg

[HoopsNY]

For me it's not even close...Wade is a hall of famer but he's always been the guy that helps the star not the star himself. 20 years from now he'll be considers with Harden, McHale, Worthy, Dumars, and Pippen. Unfortunately people grew up with him so they've inflated his generation. Kobe on the other hand is the second best Shooting Guard of all-time that doesn't go away with time.

Which tells you how underrated Wade was. Wade was the best player on Miami when Shaq was there, including 2005, but Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting that year.

[John8204]

You know why it's not a trash opinion on Shaq because ever though you seem to be obsessed with me not having Shaq in the top 20 you've never addressed any of my arguments against him.

[HoopsNY]

It's really not that complicated

Lebron > Kobe > Duncan > Dirk >Shaq > KG > Iverson > Kidd > Wade
(Top 5) (Top 10) (Top 15) (Top 20) (Top 25) (Top 25) (Top 30) (Top 35) (Top 40)



The guys I have close to Shaq are Kevin Garnett, Chris Paul, Elgin Baylor, Charles Barkley, Bob Pettit, Dirk Nowitzki, John Havlicek, George Gervin, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Walt Frazier, and Rick Barry. All of which I would rank ahead of Wade.

Man you have GOT to be kidding me lol.

Kidd > Wade?

Iverson > Wade?

:facepalm

[SouBeachTalents]

Man you have GOT to be kidding me lol.

Kidd > Wade?

Iverson > Wade?

:facepalm
You gonna leave out Duncan being top 15 & Shaq being top 25 :lol I've said it before, he HAS to be trolling with the posts he makes.

[HoopsNY]

You gonna leave out Duncan being top 15 & Shaq being top 25 :lol I've said it before, he HAS to be trolling with the posts he makes.

I'm curious what his criteria is. That changes things. For one, are we talking about careers here, or who we'd take at peak levels? But even if you don't hold Wade above Kobe, one has to admit that they are extremely close when assessing their prime/peak play.

[John8204]

Which tells you how underrated Wade was. Wade was the best player on Miami when Shaq was there, including 2005, but Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting that year.

Wade did the same thing Penny, Kobe, and Nash did with Shaq which worked when Shaq was motivated but Wade couldn't keep Shaq motivated. This is the fundamental problem with Shaq he was great when he cared but so many times in his career he didn't care and blew up a championship team.

Not a knock on Wade he tried his best and gave Shaq everything but you have a big difference between guys that facilitate stars and guys that are stars.

Kobe didn't ring chase he built his team up with good mid level players to compete in a strong west. I got a lot of respect for what Kobe did post Shaq.

[HoopsNY]

Wade did the same thing Penny, Kobe, and Nash did with Shaq which worked when Shaq was motivated but Wade couldn't keep Shaq motivated. This is the fundamental problem with Shaq he was great when he cared but so many times in his career he didn't care and blew up a championship team.

Not a knock on Wade he tried his best and gave Shaq everything but you have a big difference between guys that facilitate stars and guys that are stars.

Kobe didn't ring chase he built his team up with good mid level players to compete in a strong west. I got a lot of respect for what Kobe did post Shaq.

That's a bit absurd, don't you think? How motivated was Shaq in 2006, really?

'06 Shaq vs. CHI: 20/11/2/0/2 on 58% TS%
'06 Wade vs CHI: 25/5/7/2/1 on 54% TS%

'06 Shaq vs. NJN: 19/7/2/1/0 on 54% TS%
'06 Wade vs. NJN: 28/6/7/2/1 on 60% TS%

'06 Shaq vs. DET: 22/11/0/0/2 on 62% TS%
'06 Wade vs. DET: 27/5/6/2/2 on 68% TS%

'06 Shaq vs. DAL: 14/10/3/1/1 on 53% TS%
'06 Wade vs. DAL: 35/8/4/3/1 on 57% TS%

I don't see how Wade did "the same thing" when he was clearly the best player during that time and even won a championship. The comparison to Penny, Kobe, and Nash aren't fair.

[Phoenix]

You know why it's not a trash opinion on Shaq because ever though you seem to be obsessed with me not having Shaq in the top 20 you've never addressed any of my arguments against him.

Some opinions can be left field enough to not be worth the effort. It would be like trying to argue with someone who thinks Brian Scalabrine is on the list of all time great Celtics.

[John8204]

Man you have GOT to be kidding me lol.

Kidd > Wade?

Iverson > Wade?



You mean the Wade that at 29 lost the finals to a 37 year old Jason Kidd. And Iverson who is one of the top five SG's in NBA history who carried his team to the finals. How many Playoff series did Wade with without Lebron or Shaq?

[Phoenix]

You mean the Wade that at 29 lost the finals to a 37 year old Jason Kidd.

Wade was the best player in that series though. And by that logic, since the Mavs won that series why don't you have Dirk ranked over Lebron?

[John8204]

Some opinions can be left field enough to not be worth the effort. It would be like trying to argue with someone who thinks Brian Scalabrine is on the list of all time great Celtics.

Right....

How many MVP's does Wade have?
How many trips to the finals did Wade have without Lebron or Shaq...hell how many playoff series did Wade win on his own?
How many players have 30K points? or 25K points?
How many 30 PPG seasons did he have?

[John8204]

Wade was the best player in that series though. And by that logic, since the Mavs won that series why don't you have Dirk ranked over Lebron?

Because if we use that logic than Allen Iverson was the best player in a series against Shaq and Kobe and you would rank AI over Shaq.and unlike Wade he won an MVP

Bill Walton was better in series against KAJ and Dr J and unlike Wade he won an MVP

Dirk is great he's a 30K guy, an MVP who took his team to the finals and beat Lebron with a 37 year old PG in Jason Kidd.

[HoopsNY]

You mean the Wade that at 29 lost the finals to a 37 year old Jason Kidd. And Iverson who is one of the top five SG's in NBA history who carried his team to the finals. How many Playoff series did Wade with without Lebron or Shaq?

Kidd was a shell of himself in 2011. Don't be dense. And Wade won 2 series without Shaq or LeBron.

The assumption is that if you gave Iverson help, that it would suddenly translate to some kind of success.

Iverson in his rookie year average 24/4/8/2 on 42% and had Stackhouse and Coleman as teammates. The result? 22 wins and nowhere near making the playoffs. The next season he had Coleman, Jackson, and Stackhouse (though Jackson and Stackhouse were limited as Jackson was traded in a 4 four team deal IIRC). They won 31 games that year.

It's only when the East became depleted that Iverson took his team to the finals. And that came on a suspect series against the Bucks where the league was accused of tampering.

But what did Iverson do with Chris Webber? Okay the first year was a first round exit but then the next year Webber gave 20/10/3/1/1 and they couldn't even make the playoffs.

Then he gets traded to the Nuggets, what happened there?

'07 Nuggets w/Iverson: 26-24
'07 Nuggets w/o Iverson: 19-13

Then they get the gentleman sweep by SAS.

The following season they improve, but get knocked out the first round again. 2007-2008 Nuggets record in the postseason was 1-8. He then gets traded to Detroit and that was horrible as well.

THIS is your top 5 SG of all-time? What kinda top 5 SG is this?!

[SouBeachTalents]

Because if we use that logic than Allen Iverson was the best player in a series against Shaq and Kobe and you would rank AI over Shaq.and unlike Wade he won an MVP

Bill Walton was better in series against KAJ and Dr J and unlike Wade he won an MVP

Dirk is great he's a 30K guy, an MVP who took his team to the finals and beat Lebron with a 37 year old PG in Jason Kidd.
Let's see the arguments for this. I'd love to see the one for Iverson being better than Shaq.

[HoopsNY]

Wade's rookie season, his team won 42 games and they made it to the second round.

At the age of 34, riddled with injuries, without LeBron, Wade led his team to 48 wins and the second round where his team took the series to 7 games. Wade in that series put up 24/6/4/1/1 on 47% (55% TS%).

What was Iverson doing at 34? Playing for a 27 win Philly team where he couldn't even take them to the playoffs?

[John8204]

I'm curious what his criteria is. That changes things. For one, are we talking about careers here, or who we'd take at peak levels? But even if you don't hold Wade above Kobe, one has to admit that they are extremely close when assessing their prime/peak play.

I judge players based on generation and position those things are based on career stats, rings, MVP's, and sometimes head to head. One thing I look at for SG's is PPG

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career.html

Michael Jordan (1)
Jerry West (6)
Allen Iverson (7)
George Gervin (10)
Kobe Bryant (12)

What do you know...that just so happens to be my top five SG's of all-time...not in that order but it's a metric that counts.

Dwayne Wade (39)

Would I say he's better than Dantley (20), King (33), Issel(32), Dame (16), Beal(36)...no

[HoopsNY]

I judge players based on generation and position those things are based on career stats, rings, MVP's, and sometimes head to head. One thing I look at for SG's is PPG

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career.html

Michael Jordan (1)
Jerry West (6)
Allen Iverson (7)
George Gervin (10)
Kobe Bryant (12)

What do you know...that just so happens to be my top five SG's of all-time...not in that order but it's a metric that counts.

Dwayne Wade (39)

Would I say he's better than Dantley (20), King (33), Issel(32), Dame (16), Beal(36)...no

So not only do you rank Iverson ahead of Wade, but you also rank Bradley Beal ahead of Wade?

[John8204]

I literally answered that question at the end of the post


Kidd was a shell of himself in 2011. Don't be dense. And Wade won 2 series without Shaq or LeBron.

So the shell of himself led all players in assists in 2011 and won a title. That's a good argument for Kidd over a lot of players


The assumption is that if you gave Iverson help, that it would suddenly translate to some kind of success.

Making the finals is successful that does matter.



It's only when the East became depleted that Iverson took his team to the finals. And that came on a suspect series against the Bucks where the league was accused of tampering.

Yes the shady aspect of 00's and 10's NBA is a problem for a lot of guys..was that the year the Lakers won over shady officiating with Portland or Sacramento?

As for Iverson and Wade when they left their teams...just going to ignore that Wade couldn't play on Chicago team or with Lebron at the end of his career.

[Phoenix]

Right....

How many MVP's does Wade have?
How many trips to the finals did Wade have without Lebron or Shaq...hell how many playoff series did Wade win on his own?
How many players have 30K points? or 25K points?
How many 30 PPG seasons did he have?

Those questions are irrelevant because my comment about Scalabrine pertained to your assertion that Shaq isn't a top 25 player, not whether or not Kobe is better than Wade. In other words if someone wants to hold a opinion so out of tune with the general consensus, the call has to be made as to whether debating with said person is worth the effort.

I think most people have reasonably argued that Kobe obviously had the better career and was better for longer, with their 'peaks' being comparable. The only bizarro opinion is you saying Shaq isn't a top 25 player. That's the most out there statement out of anything being discussed here.

[Phoenix]

Because if we use that logic than Allen Iverson was the best player in a series against Shaq and Kobe and you would rank AI over Shaq.and unlike Wade he won an MVP

Bill Walton was better in series against KAJ and Dr J and unlike Wade he won an MVP

Dirk is great he's a 30K guy, an MVP who took his team to the finals and beat Lebron with a 37 year old PG in Jason Kidd.

Except he wasn't, though he was better than Kobe that series.Now we can address my question without you trying to deflect: Wade was very clearly the best player in the 2011 finals, but as you say he lost to 37 year old Jason Kidd who probably wasn't even one of the top 6 players in that finals just off memory. With that said, Dirk played better than Lebron, and won that matchup, and since you include arbitrary reasons like loyalty, Dirk was obviously more loyal to the Mavs than Lebron has been to any team. So why don't you, in your own logic, have Dirk ahead of Lebron?

[RRR3]

Phoenix’s ability to consistently engage seriously with trolls is admirable. Instead I just troll back :lol

[Phoenix]

Phoenix’s ability to consistently engage seriously with trolls is admirable. Instead I just troll back :lol

You'd think I'd learn by now.

[ShawkFactory]

Because if we use that logic than Allen Iverson was the best player in a series against Shaq and Kobe and you would rank AI over Shaq.and unlike Wade he won an MVP

Bill Walton was better in series against KAJ and Dr J and unlike Wade he won an MVP

Dirk is great he's a 30K guy, an MVP who took his team to the finals and beat Lebron with a 37 year old PG in Jason Kidd.

No. Shaq completely dominated that series.

[SouBeachTalents]

The guy just said Bradley Beal was better than Wade too so....

[Phoenix]

The guy just said Bradley Beal was better than Wade too so....

Who doesn't have an MVP, has never led a team deep into the playoffs as its best player, doesn't even have 20k points let alone 30k, and a single all-nba team. Essentially, all the bullet points he used to say Kobe>Wade would naturally also mean Wade>Beal( to any sane person), but that logic somehow no longer applies.

Yep, we got a live one.

[Phoenix]

As for Iverson and Wade when they left their teams...just going to ignore that Wade couldn't play on Chicago team or with Lebron at the end of his career.

Were you in a coma when Iverson left Denver?

[John8204]

The guy just said Bradley Beal was better than Wade too so....

I said the opposite of that...which is once again how am I the troll when you people are the ones that have to lie to make posts?


Let's see the arguments for this. I'd love to see the one for Iverson being better than Shaq.

Oh man that's such a tough argument you've really exposed me as a gimmick account because what argument could I make for AI over Shaq and Kobe.

Oh he scored more points.

[SouBeachTalents]

I said the opposite of that...which is once again how am I the troll when you people are the ones that have to lie to make posts?



Oh man that's such a tough argument you've really exposed me as a gimmick account because what argument could I make for AI over Shaq and Kobe.

Oh he scored more points.
You claimed Walton was better than Kareem & Dr. J when he got outscored 30-19 in both series.

[Phoenix]

Oh man that's such a tough argument you've really exposed me as a gimmick account because what argument could I make for AI over Shaq and Kobe.

Oh he scored more points.


Shaq averaged 3 less points on 50 less shots while averaging more rebounds and blocks ( which you'd expect him to) and more ASSISTS( which you wouldn't expect him to). Yeah, all signs point to Iverson here.

[Phoenix]

The guy just said Bradley Beal was better than Wade too so....


I said the opposite of that...which is once again how am I the troll when you people are the ones that have to lie to make posts?






I judge players based on generation and position those things are based on career stats, rings, MVP's, and sometimes head to head. One thing I look at for SG's is PPG

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career.html

Michael Jordan (1)
Jerry West (6)
Allen Iverson (7)
George Gervin (10)
Kobe Bryant (12)

What do you know...that just so happens to be my top five SG's of all-time...not in that order but it's a metric that counts.

Dwayne Wade (39)

Would I say he's better than Dantley (20), King (33), Issel(32), Dame (16), Beal(36)...no

If you're not saying that Beal>Wade, please advise what the bolded means.

[John8204]

Wade was very clearly the best player in the 2011 finals, but as you say he lost to 37 year old Jason Kidd who probably wasn't even one of the top 6 players in that finals just off memory.

Well reality was Kidd had 38 Assists which was 2nd to Lebron. Wade had one more point than Dirk. Wade had a good series 26.5 PPG...but Iverson the player you don't respect 36.5 PPG. You could make the case for Wade being the best player on a losing effort against the Mav's. But you could also make the case that Dirk was the best player or even the PG on Dallas who was 37 years old and managed to get productivity out of that lineup.



With that said, Dirk played better than Lebron, and won that matchup, and since you include arbitrary reasons like loyalty, Dirk was obviously more loyal to the Mavs than Lebron has been to any team. So why don't you, in your own logic, have Dirk ahead of Lebron?

What you are talking about is an arbitrary metric however what wouldn't be an arbitrary metric would be to compare the loyal players with each other and the team jumpers with each other.

Line A - Bird, Bill, Magic, Mikan, Kobe, West, Duncan, Curry, Stockton, Dirk
Line B - MJ, Wilt, Lebron, KAJ, Oscar, Moses, Hakeem, Dr. J, KG, Shaq

How many players would you rank Dirk ahead of based on his loyalty and performance?
How far down could you take Lebron down for leaving his team compared to others who did the same thing?
Can the two players meet and Dirk overtake him...I don't think so. Because when talking about legacy it's not simply binary where you compare 1 to 1.

[John8204]

[/B]

If you're not saying that Beal>Wade, please advise what the bolded means.

not in that order but it's a metric that counts.

Dwayne Wade (39)

Would I say he's better than Dantley (20), King (33), Issel(32), Dame (16), Beal(36)...no

[WhiteKyrie]

Back to the thread topic.

Kobe was better and greater than Wade.

Easily legacy and resume wise. But prime and peak? Only slightly in reality, if at all.

If you’re actually comparing the quality of play of both players in their prime and peak, the conversation is much closer, than any Laker and Kobe Stans ever want to admit.

They should thank the grace of God that Dwyane Wade came into the league at a slightly older age, with already pre-existing bad knees, I’m not talking about one of them, I’m talking about both of them.

Subsequently by his second season was the best player in the Miami Heat, with the same player Kobe ran out of town. Carried said player to a championship in just his third season, having a dominant playoff and NBA finals.

Got a finals MVP and a ring by just his third season. Looked like at worst tied for the best guard in the league with Kobe.

And then Kobe Stans should also be thanking their lucky stripes, that Wade through his shoulder out the very next season when he was even better, and playing like a certified MVP. And they should also thank they’re lucky stars, the Miami Heat roster was so putrid in an effort to tank following Wace having an injury riddled 2008 season, where they were clearly setting up cap space for the 2010 free agency. Because if he had any pieces around him, Dwayne Wade’s 2009 season with a better team record could’ve very well easily been an MVP trophy season for him, which would put him résumé wise right there with Kobe.

If anything black mamba fan should be praising Dwyane Wade, and hyping him up, because the only leg they have to stand on arguably in an asinine delusional argument against Michael Jordan, his obvious superior, is that he played against prime for prime with another top 5 SG all time.

Because Michael no longer has that on his belt, considering where one might rate Clyde Drexler. Some have them at number five, some have him at number six behind James Harden.

[Phoenix]

Well reality was Kidd had 38 Assists which was 2nd to Lebron. Wade had one more point than Dirk. Wade had a good series 26.5 PPG...but Iverson the player you don't respect 36.5 PPG. You could make the case for Wade being the best player on a losing effort against the Mav's. But you could also make the case that Dirk was the best player or even the PG on Dallas who was 37 years old and managed to get productivity out of that lineup.


Wade also had more assists, steals and blocks than Dirk. The scoring difference was immaterial ( 26.5 Wade to 26.0 for Dirk) but Wade's 62% efficiency to Dirk's 54% certainly wasn't. There's no case for Dirk over Wade in terms of individual performace over the 6 games. If anything, the Heat lost moreso because Lebron underperformed by his standards moreso than anything Dirk did. He was better in the Western conference playoffs than he was the finals.

I didn't say I didn't respect Iverson's scoring in the 2001 series. But your whole criteria for placing Iverson above Shaq and Kobe was scoring. If that's what you're going to go with, then it requires the context that Iverson needed 50 more shots to avg 3 more points. Context does matter when using that kind of argument and the shot difference here isn't hand-wavable. How many points do you think Shaq scores if he took the same number of shots that Iverson took? I could just as easily say that you seem to have little respect for Shaq averaging more rebounds/assists/blocks than Iverson while basically scoring virtually the same but on exponentially better efficiency. Again, context matters and you seem to apply it very judiciously in some cases and not at all in others. Case in point, your overhyping of Kidd's assists to draw attention from him averaging 8 points on 39% shooting. So I guess scoring, the metric you used to argue for A.I over Shaq and Kobe, no longer applies because Kidd's 'scoring' was a non-factor so you turned your attention to a 'But look at his assists!!' argument.



What you are talking about is an arbitrary metric however what wouldn't be an arbitrary metric would be to compare the loyal players with each other and the team jumpers with each other.

Line A - Bird, Bill, Magic, Mikan, Kobe, West, Duncan, Curry, Stockton, Dirk
Line B - MJ, Wilt, Lebron, KAJ, Oscar, Moses, Hakeem, Dr. J, KG, Shaq

How many players would you rank Dirk ahead of based on his loyalty and performance?
How far down could you take Lebron down for leaving his team compared to others who did the same thing?
Can the two players meet and Dirk overtake him...I don't think so. Because when talking about legacy it's not simply binary where you compare 1 to 1.

I wouldn't rank anyone over anyone else on the basis on how many teams they played for, so that's a non starter for me. All I'm asking is, why don't you have Dirk over Lebron on the basis of their respective loyalties? These are your arguing criteria, not mine.

[Phoenix]

not in that order but it's a metric that counts.

Dwayne Wade (39)

Would I say he's better than Dantley (20), King (33), Issel(32), Dame (16), Beal(36)...no

Who do you have ranked higher, Wade or Beal? Your reply only needs to be 'Wade' or 'Beal'.

[Manny98]

06 Wade was better than any version of Kobe but Kobe obviously had the better career overall and more elite seasons

[John8204]

Wade it was always Wade

Basing a players entire legacy on a single year or title is dumb. You might think it's a non-starter for playing for a single team but I think it has value. And I'll use Wade and Kobe as examples. Wade wasn't good enough for Miami to rebuild a team with he had to leave. Guys like Dirk, Miller, Stockton, Duncan, Bill Russell, and Kobe were good enough and productive enough to be able to transition to the next group of guys.

[paksat]

I judge players based on generation and position those things are based on career stats, rings, MVP's, and sometimes head to head. One thing I look at for SG's is PPG

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career.html

Michael Jordan (1)
Jerry West (6)
Allen Iverson (7)
George Gervin (10)
Kobe Bryant (12)

What do you know...that just so happens to be my top five SG's of all-time...not in that order but it's a metric that counts.

Dwayne Wade (39)

Would I say he's better than Dantley (20), King (33), Issel(32), Dame (16), Beal(36)...no

Man you made me come out of retirement for this garbage forum

Tell me where wade's chief weakness is using primes of all players please. I want to know is he: a bad defender? an inefficient scorer? a bad post player? a bad mid-range jumper? a bad facilitator? a bad dribbler? a bad slasher? a bad rebounder? a bad on ball defender? A bad off ball defender? is he a locker room cancer? Does he take nights off? is he a bad 4th quarter player? Is he a bad 3 point shot maker? is he a bad playmaker? Perhaps he's a bad shot blocker? Maybe a bad post defender?

Out of all of that, the only one that is true is he's not a great 3 point maker. But you and no one else is about to leave him alone and dare him to hit it.

I'll even go gilbert arenas's route here and say: so he's worse than allen iverson... Okay so who would you take in a 1v1? Wade?... Okay so iverson is not a better PLAYER alone. PERHAPS a better 5 ON 5 player but we just established he's not a better BASKETBALL player.

Wade doesn't have any true weaknesses whether people like that or not, it's true. Iverson is a TERRIBLE defender, a flat out liability and a bad teammate that was known to show up to sixers practice drunk AND leave when he felt like it. That's incredible in it's own right of what a player he was with that sort of work ethic, but wade doesn't do that dumb chit. Dame and beal don't even know what defense is AND they're playing in a watered down league where you can't even touch an offensive player. Carrying and traveling is just part of the game these days.

Wade had 128 dunks in the 09 season. To put that in perspective, kobes best season was 116 and roses 11th year career total is 102. By the way, this isn’t wades highest dunks in a season. That was 152 in 2006.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fWsB23y6eE&t=401s&ab_channel=MaxaMillion711

dame and beal better than this guy? Man I hope you're young and just look at numbers and analytics.

[SouBeachTalents]

Man you made me come out of retirement for this garbage forum

Tell me where wade's chief weakness is using primes of all players please. I want to know is he: a bad defender? an inefficient scorer? a bad post player? a bad mid-range jumper? a bad facilitator? a bad dribbler? a bad slasher? a bad rebounder? a bad on ball defender? A bad off ball defender? is he a locker room cancer? Does he take nights off? is he a bad 4th quarter player? Is he a bad 3 point shot maker? is he a bad playmaker? Perhaps he's a bad shot blocker? Maybe a bad post defender?

Out of all of that, the only one that is true is he's not a great 3 point maker. But you and no one else is about to leave him alone and dare him to hit it.

I'll even go gilbert arenas's route here and say: so he's worse than allen iverson... Okay so who would you take in a 1v1? Wade?... Okay so iverson is not a better PLAYER alone. PERHAPS a better 5 ON 5 player but we just established he's not a better BASKETBALL player.

Wade doesn't have any true weaknesses whether people like that or not, it's true. Iverson is a TERRIBLE defender, a flat out liability and a bad teammate that was known to show up to sixers practice drunk AND leave when he felt like it. That's incredible in it's own right of what a player he was with that sort of work ethic, but wade doesn't do that dumb chit. Dame and beal don't even know what defense is AND they're playing in a watered down league where you can't even touch an offensive player. Carrying and traveling is just part of the game these days.

Wade had 128 dunks in the 09 season. To put that in perspective, kobes best season was 116 and roses 11th year career total is 102. By the way, this isn’t wades highest dunks in a season. That was 152 in 2006.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fWsB23y6eE&t=401s&ab_channel=MaxaMillion711

dame and beal better than this guy? Man I hope you're young and just look at numbers and analytics.
You're really downplaying how bad of a 3 point shooter Wade was, it was a clear deficiency in his game. It obviously didn't hinder his effectiveness, but he's statistically one of the worst 3 point shooters in league history, never shooting above 32% in any season.

And I don't get the bolded, what makes Iverson a better 5 on 5 player than Wade?

[Phoenix]

Wade it was always Wade

Basing a players entire legacy on a single year or title is dumb. You might think it's a non-starter for playing for a single team but I think it has value. And I'll use Wade and Kobe as examples. Wade wasn't good enough for Miami to rebuild a team with he had to leave. Guys like Dirk, Miller, Stockton, Duncan, Bill Russell, and Kobe were good enough and productive enough to be able to transition to the next group of guys.

Who's doing that here? Just about everyone is saying 1) Wade and Kobe in terms of peak play is debatable 2) Kobe was more durable, skillset aged better, and overall achieved more so is the higher ranked player. I don't see anyone saying Wade should be ranked higher, only that his peak play is comparable. You seem unable to separate the two ideas.

As for value, that's obviously in the idea of the beholder so I'm not expending energy on the legitimacy of loyalty having value to you but not having much to me in terms of rankings. So I'll ask again....Dirk was a more loyal player than Lebron and beat him in head to head competition( also scored more than Lebron in the series). All those metrics you've applied to say player A>B in some other cases, so that must also mean you rank Dirk above Lebron. Yes or no?

As far as Wade not being good enough to build around so he left..... Wade left the team at 35 when he was well past his prime. Perhaps you were in coma the last 3 years of Kobe's career post Achilles tear, but that was NOT a smooth transition. He was in his late 30's, played like someone in their late 30's compounded by injuries, while being the highest paid player in the league. The Lakers had no chance to retool until he was off the books, so I don't what the hell you're talking about with that one.

[paksat]

You're really downplaying how bad of a 3 point shooter Wade was, it was a clear deficiency in his game. It obviously didn't hinder his effectiveness, but he's statistically one of the worst 3 point shooters in league history, never shooting above 32% in any season.

And I don't get the bolded, what makes Iverson a better 5 on 5 player than Wade?

You're going for career, I said at the start of the post I want to talk about absolute prime. He was not a bad 3 point shooter in 09 at 32%. It's not even a shot he practiced, imagine if he had kobes mentality and shot 2000 of the things every day how scary he would have become. But even if you want to declare he's TERRIBLE, hell let's call him the worst 3 point shooter of ALL TIME, he still is borderline elite at EVERYTHING else.

As for the bolded, I just said that because 1v1 is a different game than 5v5. And I don't want him to come back with, "yeah but that's 1v1..."

[BigShotBob]

A lot better because Kobe had more impact and intangibles and his game 7 against the Celtics in 2010 encapsulates that

Wade in that situation isn't grabbing 15 rebounds, 4 being offense, to dominate the glass and grab more rebounds than anyone else on the Celtics in order to win (per what Rajon Rondo alluded to)

[SouBeachTalents]

A lot better because Kobe had more impact and intangibles and his game 7 against the Celtics in 2010 encapsulates that

Wade in that situation isn't grabbing 15 rebounds, 4 being offense, to dominate the glass and grab more rebounds than anyone else on the Celtics in order to win (per what Rajon Rondo alluded to)
He's also not likely shooting 6/24 and jacking up absolutely atrocious shots throughout the game. In fact, the Lakers might not have even needed 7 games if they had Wade, he dominated the Celtics all season.

RS: 34/5/9 on 58%TS
PS: 33/6/7 on 65%TS

[BigShotBob]

He's also not likely shooting 6/24 and jacking up absolutely atrocious shots throughout the game. In fact, the Lakers might not have even needed 7 games if they had Wade, he dominated the Celtics all season.

RS: 34/5/9 on 58%TS
PS: 33/6/7 on 65%TS

Paul Pierce: 5/15
Ray Allen (guarded by Kobe): 3/14

Yet Wade would be the only guard shooting well that game I guess lol

[Gohan]

For all the posters that said wade over kobe. Please off yourself the world would be a better place without you

[HoopsNY]

A lot better because Kobe had more impact and intangibles and his game 7 against the Celtics in 2010 encapsulates that

Wade in that situation isn't grabbing 15 rebounds, 4 being offense, to dominate the glass and grab more rebounds than anyone else on the Celtics in order to win (per what Rajon Rondo alluded to)

Wade in the 2006 finals with the Heat already down 0-2 grabbed 13 rebounds in addition to scoring 42 points to keep his team in the series including 15 points and 3 rebounds in the 4th quarter. Did you forget that or are you just relying on 15 rebounds like Wade couldn't grab rebounds?

'06 Gm 3 Wade: 42/13/2/2 on 54%
'10 Gm 7 Kobe: 23/15/2/1 on 25%

Yea, Kobe's ability to rise to the occasion there is noted but let's not act like Wade's performance was any less pivotal. It literally turned that series around and Miami came back to win the series.

[John8204]

Man you made me come out of retirement for this garbage forum

Tell me where wade's chief weakness is using primes of all players please. I want to know is he: a bad defender? an inefficient scorer? a bad post player? a bad mid-range jumper? a bad facilitator? a bad dribbler? a bad slasher? a bad rebounder? a bad on ball defender? A bad off ball defender? is he a locker room cancer? Does he take nights off? is he a bad 4th quarter player? Is he a bad 3 point shot maker? is he a bad playmaker? Perhaps he's a bad shot blocker? Maybe a bad post defender?

Out of all of that, the only one that is true is he's not a great 3 point maker. But you and no one else is about to leave him alone and dare him to hit it.

I'll even go gilbert arenas's route here and say: so he's worse than allen iverson... Okay so who would you take in a 1v1? Wade?... Okay so iverson is not a better PLAYER alone. PERHAPS a better 5 ON 5 player but we just established he's not a better BASKETBALL player.

Wade doesn't have any true weaknesses whether people like that or not, it's true. Iverson is a TERRIBLE defender, a flat out liability and a bad teammate that was known to show up to sixers practice drunk AND leave when he felt like it. That's incredible in it's own right of what a player he was with that sort of work ethic, but wade doesn't do that dumb chit. Dame and beal don't even know what defense is AND they're playing in a watered down league where you can't even touch an offensive player. Carrying and traveling is just part of the game these days.

Wade had 128 dunks in the 09 season. To put that in perspective, kobes best season was 116 and roses 11th year career total is 102. By the way, this isn’t wades highest dunks in a season. That was 152 in 2006.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fWsB23y6eE&t=401s&ab_channel=MaxaMillion711

dame and beal better than this guy? Man I hope you're young and just look at numbers and analytics.

Great argument for Wade over Iverson and it's a fair emotional argument. But success matters, Allen Iverson has an MVP...Dwayne doesn't. He made it to the finals on his own...Wade never had a great run on his own(how many conference finals did Reggie make) another SG from that era. AI has 4 scoring titles...Wade has 0....he's a SG that's his job. When discussing legacy you have to be successful at something not just the eye test and that's really all I'm hearing from most of you.

We should be talking about Wade with Allen Iverson, George Gervin, and Isiah Thomas...those guys I can see a debate. But Kobe sorry I don't see it.

[ImKobe]

He's also not likely shooting 6/24 and jacking up absolutely atrocious shots throughout the game. In fact, the Lakers might not have even needed 7 games if they had Wade, he dominated the Celtics all season.

RS: 34/5/9 on 58%TS
PS: 33/6/7 on 65%TS

Lol

Putting up numbers in a 1st round loss is not better than winning the chip. It never has been. Wade was 10/24 with 7 TOs when he got eliminated in Game 5 against Boston btw.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lol

Putting up numbers in a 1st round loss is not better than winning the chip. It never has been. Wade was 10/24 with 7 TOs when he got eliminated in Game 5 against Boston btw.
No one in the thread has argued this. What a bullshit strawman argument :lol Though I guess by this criteria Wade > Kobe in '06.

And btw, 31/7/10 on 10/24, even with the 7 turnovers, is still clearly a better performance than 23/15/2 on 6/24 with 4 turnovers.

[RRR3]

No one in the thread has argued this. What a bullshit strawman argument :lol Though I guess by this criteria Wade > Kobe in '06.

And btw, 31/7/10 on 10/24, even with the 7 turnovers, is still clearly a better performance than 23/15/2 on 6/24 with 4 turnovers.
They're never consistent about this. Truly incredible.

[1987_Lakers]

Ray Allen (guarded by Kobe): 3/14

Yet Wade would be the only guard shooting well that game I guess lol

Ray Allen was mostly guarded by Fisher in that game 7. He was also just missing open shots.

[ImKobe]

No one in the thread has argued this. What a bullshit strawman argument :lol Though I guess by this criteria Wade > Kobe in '06.

And btw, 31/7/10 on 10/24, even with the 7 turnovers, is still clearly a better performance than 23/15/2 on 6/24 with 4 turnovers.

That's what your argument is... You're using a 1st round loss to say that he would have done the same (or at least better than KB) in a Finals win on a completely different team, it just makes no sense whatsoever.

Like I said in the thread before, if you're going to argue for Wade, use his 2006 Playoff run and not a 1st round loss to make a case for him. Plenty of players have had great numbers in 1st round losses, we usually don't point to those #s to really make any case for them in any debate.

[999Guy]

Wade could scale it up on anyone in a way Kobe never could.


Kobe’s performances in the playoffs trailed extremely closely to quality of the defense. Wade’s performances didn’t at nearly the same level. Wade could face a truly historic defense and incinerate them like first round fodder.


Outside that, on a skill level things are more obvious. In a year like 09, on a night to night basis, Kobe was about as good as Wade at the sport. It’s so close it’s not worth talking too much about IMO.

I read a stat that showed Kobe was better in the pick and roll than Wade according to synergy. Kobe was hella dynamic in ways the box score can’t usually pick up on.

But when the athletes are absolutely elite, the intensity and physicality is picked up, the schemes are smarter, Wade is just scarier in the postseason, and for good reason.

[WhiteKyrie]

But when the athletes are absolutely elite, the intensity and physicality is picked up, the schemes are smarter, Wade is just scarier in the postseason, and for good reason.
Explain why he’s scarier …

[HoopsNY]

Great argument for Wade over Iverson and it's a fair emotional argument. But success matters, Allen Iverson has an MVP...Dwayne doesn't. He made it to the finals on his own...Wade never had a great run on his own(how many conference finals did Reggie make) another SG from that era. AI has 4 scoring titles...Wade has 0....he's a SG that's his job. When discussing legacy you have to be successful at something not just the eye test and that's really all I'm hearing from most of you.

We should be talking about Wade with Allen Iverson, George Gervin, and Isiah Thomas...those guys I can see a debate. But Kobe sorry I don't see it.

No one in their right mind would choose Iverson over Wade. Even if you say Wade had a lack of getting out of the 1st round without Shaq or LeBron, then your argument falls to pieces because WITH help, Iverson still sucked.

w/Stackhouse '97: Missed playoffs
w/Coleman '98: Missed playoffs
w/Webber '05: 1st round exit
w/Webber '06: Missed playoffs
w/Melo '07: 1st round exit
w/Melo '08: 1st round exit

Then he goes to Detroit in 2009 and couldn't make them better. In fact, he made them worse. Detroit was 15-13 without Iverson and 24-30 with him.

Wade was in the 2nd round as a rookie and then again in 2016 without LeBron. You can't act like that didn't happen, it did. And Shaq wasn't some monster in 2006. He was clearly over the hill. He gave 18/10 in the 2006 playoffs and 14/10 in the finals. He wasn't a scrub but you're making Shaq out to be peak/prime Shaq here and that wasn't the case.

[WhiteKyrie]

No one in their right mind would choose Iverson over Wade. Even if you say Wade had a lack of getting out of the 1st round without Shaq or LeBron, then your argument falls to pieces because WITH help, Iverson still sucked.

w/Stackhouse '97: Missed playoffs
w/Coleman '98: Missed playoffs
w/Webber '05: 1st round exit
w/Webber '06: Missed playoffs
w/Melo '07: 1st round exit
w/Melo '08: 1st round exit

Then he goes to Detroit in 2009 and couldn't make them better. In fact, he made them worse. Detroit was 15-13 without Iverson and 24-30 with him.

Wade was in the 2nd round as a rookie and then again in 2016 without LeBron. You can't act like that didn't happen, it did. And Shaq wasn't some monster in 2006. He was clearly over the hill. He gave 18/10 in the 2006 playoffs and 14/10 in the finals. He wasn't a scrub but you're making Shaq out to be peak/prime Shaq here and that wasn't the case.

Listen, don’t piss on Allen Iverson just to prop up Dwyane Wade. I’m tired of the blasphemous slander of AI hate.

In fact the two of those guys had a few duels in that 2005 and 2006 time frame where Iverson actually got the better of him.

If you thought Bubba Chuck was overrated before, at this point he has now become massively underrated.

He played in the most offensively regressed and difficult scoring climate that I’ve seen in league history, from 1996 to 2004. Was an under size 5 foot 11 shooting guard. Had the heart of a lion and the motor and the craftiness and ball handling skills, and insane quickness to obliterate and embarrass anybody in an individual isolation scenario this side of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant.

Also forgotten is he had the skill set many others don’t where it wasn’t ball dominant. He played and moved insanely well off the ball within the flow of the offense. And allowed others to handle the rock. If it wasn’t a manager the game point guard like Eric snow playing alongside him in the back court, and he had somebody that could create off the dribble creatively and consistently as well, that Philadelphia team in the early 2000s would’ve been super dynamic.

While given his size playing defense at his position facing guys much larger than him he could be a liability but he offset and mitigated that weakness by being a total menace in the passing lanes and grabbing steals at record rates.

Carried the most talentless team to the finals and stole a game off one of the five greatest teams I’ve ever seen, the two headed Alpha monster of the 2001 Lakers.

And then the rest of his career he was frequently injured given his playing style in the physicality of the league at the time, and he really never had that much adequate help.

If you paid attention, even into his early 30s after the rule changes, his efficiency went up. His Nugget team was pretty good but just faced a motivated Kobe and Gasol Laker squad. Denver correctly chose to build around Carmelo instead, but if you reworked that roster around Iverson or him and Melo, they could’ve fielded a championship level squad with the right defenders and shooters around him. Just like they did with a more game managing and occasional shooter at PG like they did with Billups.

A true PG, Iverson and Melo with interior defense and rebounding would’ve had them in the WCF at minimum, consistently if younger version of Allen was paired up with talent like that.

But shortly after that 2008 season, where he was still easily one of the best players in the game … given the wear and tear on his small frame, and the drinking, and the partying, Allen once he hit his mid 30s dropped off a cliff.

That’s why he was so ineffective on Detroit, then Memphis, then quickly bounced to Philly, then quickly bounced out of the league. In combination with his competitive ego refusing to adapt and come off the bench. Kind of like Westbrick now.

[1987_Lakers]

No one in their right mind would choose Iverson over Wade. Even if you say Wade had a lack of getting out of the 1st round without Shaq or LeBron, then your argument falls to pieces because WITH help, Iverson still sucked.

w/Stackhouse '97: Missed playoffs
w/Coleman '98: Missed playoffs
w/Webber '05: 1st round exit
w/Webber '06: Missed playoffs
w/Melo '07: 1st round exit
w/Melo '08: 1st round exit

Then he goes to Detroit in 2009 and couldn't make them better. In fact, he made them worse. Detroit was 15-13 without Iverson and 24-30 with him.

Wade was in the 2nd round as a rookie and then again in 2016 without LeBron. You can't act like that didn't happen, it did. And Shaq wasn't some monster in 2006. He was clearly over the hill. He gave 18/10 in the 2006 playoffs and 14/10 in the finals. He wasn't a scrub but you're making Shaq out to be peak/prime Shaq here and that wasn't the case.

Agreed, Iverson over Wade is a joke.

[1Time4YourMind]

The only time people thought Wade had a legitimate argument over Kobe was the 09 season and maybe immediately after the 06 Finals, otherwise Kobe was known as the better and more importantly, the more durable player.

[HoopsNY]

The only time people thought Wade had a legitimate argument over Kobe was the 09 season and maybe immediately after the 06 Finals, otherwise Kobe was known as the better and more importantly, the more durable player.

Which matters as far as careers are concerned. I don't think Wade is anywhere Kobe career-wise, but as far as peak/prime play goes, then I think he's pretty close, if not better.

[WhiteKyrie]

The only time people thought Wade had a legitimate argument over Kobe was the 09 season and maybe immediately after the 06 Finals, otherwise Kobe was known as the better and more importantly, the more durable player.

I can agree.

But the point is 2006, 2007 pre injury and 2009 Wade is as good or maybe even better than the best we saw of Bryant.

Dwayne couldn’t stay healthy and wasn’t durable, correct.

Hell, 2010 and 2011 Wade aren’t far off from prime Kobe Bryant either. In fact he’s right there with him. Those seasons don’t get mentioned. He just didn’t have the health or longevity.

The gap between Kobe’s resume and Wade is closer than Kobe’s is to Jordan’s. You realize that, right?

3 ppg, one MVP, and one Finals MVP.

That’s it, besides defensive teams. And Kobe got a few he shouldn’t and Wade got hosed out of a few he should’ve.

Now, compare that to the difference of

5 ppg, 4x MVPs, 4x Finals MVPs.

[SouBeachTalents]

I can agree.

But the point is 2006, 2007 pre injury and 2009 Wade is as good or maybe even better than the best we saw of Bryant.

Dwayne couldn’t stay healthy and wasn’t durable, correct.

Hell, 2010 and 2011 Wade aren’t far off from prime Kobe Bryant either. In fact he’s right there with him. Those seasons don’t get mentioned. He just didn’t have the health or longevity.

The gap between Kobe’s resume and Wade is closer than Kobe’s is to Jordan’s. You realize that, right?

3 ppg, one MVP, and one Finals MVP.

That’s it, besides defensive teams. And Kobe got a few he shouldn’t and Wade got hosed out of a few he should’ve.

Now, compare that to the difference of

5 ppg, 4x MVPs, 4x Finals MVPs.
Nah, Kobe has significant resume advantages over Wade

15-8 in All-NBA Teams
11-2 in All-NBA First Teams
11-2 in MVP top 5 finishes

[3ba11]

I don't think Wade would do well in the triangle - it isn't the ball-dominance - it's the expert jumpshooting skill required that only Kobe and MJ had at the guard position - and maybe guys like Dirk, Bird or Hakeem could also win with the triangle but they're frontcourt players - only Kobe and MJ had sufficient skill from the guard position to win with the triangle. So I don't think Wade could win that way - if he could, he would've fit marvelously with Lebron, but instead, he's like a smaller, clutch version of Lebron

Basically, Wade needs more spacing help than Kobe because Wade himself has inferior jumpshooting skill than Kobe - nearly everyone does.. That's the problem with these non-shooting ball-dominators like Wade or Lebron - they need ridiculous spacing help for their drives, whereas Kobe could spot-up or pull-up over defenses.. We saw Lebron field a 45-win loser in 2008 because he didn't have Mo's spacing help (2009)... Wade is like this too - he needs great spacing help

[WhiteKyrie]

I don't think Wade would do well in the triangle - it isn't the ball-dominance - it's the expert jumpshooting skill required that only Kobe and MJ had at the guard position - and maybe guys like Dirk, Bird or Hakeem could also win with the triangle but they're frontcourt players - only Kobe and MJ had sufficient skill from the guard position to win with the triangle. So I don't think Wade could win that way - if he could, he would've fit marvelously with Lebron, but instead, he's like a smaller, clutch version of Lebron

Basically, Wade needs more spacing help than Kobe because Wade himself has inferior jumpshooting skill than Kobe - nearly everyone does.. That's the problem with these non-shooting ball-dominators like Wade or Lebron - they need ridiculous spacing help for their drives, whereas Kobe could spot-up or pull-up over defenses.. We saw Lebron field a 45-win loser in 2008 because he didn't have Mo's spacing help (2009)... Wade is like this too - he needs great spacing help

Wade didn’t need tons of room like Bron to get around people. He was a better penetrator than Kobe.

[Phoenix]

Nah, Kobe has significant resume advantages over Wade

15-8 in All-NBA Teams
11-2 in All-NBA First Teams
11-2 in MVP top 5 finishes

Wade's relative lack of health really robbed him of some legacy bullet points. 2007 was definitely a first team all-NBA/top 5 MVP finish type year pre-injury. I don't even remember why he was injured in 08. Even in 2006 he was a better player than Nash( who went on to win MVP and by extension got first team) and in 2011 if you follow the same logic for Rose winning MVP so you kinda have to give him first team, Wade should have been first team over Kobe. To his credit, Kobe simply outlasted his rivals but there were points when his level of play was being matched by someone like Tmac in the early 2000s or Wade from like 2005-2012 when healthy. Kobe seemed to have a tremendous pain threshold and his skillset was able to better naviagte around various injuries.

[SouBeachTalents]

Wade's relative lack of health really robbed him of some legacy bullet points. 2007 was definitely a first team all-NBA/top 5 MVP finish level type year pre-injury. I don't even remember why he was injured in 08. Even in 2006 he was a better player than Nash( who went on to win MVP and by extension got first team) and in 2011 if you follow the same logic for Rose winning MVP so you kinda have to give him first team, Wade should have been first team over Kobe. To his credit, Kobe simply outlasted his rivals but there were points when his level of play was being matched by someone like Tmac in the early 2000s or Wade from like 2005-2012 when healthy. Kobe seemed to have a tremendous pain threshold and his skillset was able to better naviagte around various injuries.
You didn't even mention '05, when he was arguably the best player in the playoffs before getting injured in the ECF. That could've been another title/FMVP in just his 2nd season. And while LeBron consumes all the focus for 2011, that's another series where Wade got hurt, and was frankly never the same the rest of the series, culminating in his only bad performance of the Finals in Game 6.

[Phoenix]

You didn't even mention '05, when he was arguably the best player in the playoffs before getting injured in the ECF. That could've been another title/FMVP in just his 2nd season. And while LeBron consumes all the focus for 2011, that's another series where Wade got hurt, and was frankly never the same the rest of the series, culminating in his only bad performance of the Finals in Game 6.

Yeah, in 05 I have him in my mind as still being 'ascending' so to speak where he was a fully realized superstar in 06, but I could be underrating his 05 season. I do recall that something special was brewing in the playoffs before he got injured.

[dankok8]

I don't think Wade would do well in the triangle - it isn't the ball-dominance - it's the expert jumpshooting skill required that only Kobe and MJ had at the guard position - and maybe guys like Dirk, Bird or Hakeem could also win with the triangle but they're frontcourt players - only Kobe and MJ had sufficient skill from the guard position to win with the triangle. So I don't think Wade could win that way - if he could, he would've fit marvelously with Lebron, but instead, he's like a smaller, clutch version of Lebron

Basically, Wade needs more spacing help than Kobe because Wade himself has inferior jumpshooting skill than Kobe - nearly everyone does.. That's the problem with these non-shooting ball-dominators like Wade or Lebron - they need ridiculous spacing help for their drives, whereas Kobe could spot-up or pull-up over defenses.. We saw Lebron field a 45-win loser in 2008 because he didn't have Mo's spacing help (2009)... Wade is like this too - he needs great spacing help

Dude what are you talking about?

Wade was a very good midrange shooter.

[WhiteKyrie]

Yeah, in 05 I have him in my mind as still being 'ascending' so to speak where he was a fully realized superstar in 06, but I could be underrating his 05 season. I do recall that something special was brewing in the playoffs before he got injured.

Reg season - 24/5/7
Playoffs - 27/6/7

Shaq
Reg season - 23/10/3
Playoffs - 19/8/2

By the 2005 playoffs Wade was fully realized as a superstar and clearly was Miami’s best player. Shaq’s decline only further continued from there.

[aj1987]

Didn't read all the posts ITT. I might be one of the biggest Wade stans, EVER, however even I can admit Kobe was greater.

That being said, prime for prime and peak for peak is closer. Kobe wins prime primarily because of longevity and having a prime twice as long as Wade's. Peak? I would give it to Wade. A more consistent defender, a better playmaker, and significantly higher IQ.

When it comes to scoring, I still can't fathom as to why Wade stopped going to his bank shot. It was basically a more guaranteed shot than any other players' shot in the history of the game.

Getting rid of his meniscus didn't help either. What a shame. Easily a top 8-10 player if he could only stay healthy.

[Axe]

I can agree.

But the point is 2006, 2007 pre injury and 2009 Wade is as good or maybe even better than the best we saw of Bryant.

Dwayne couldn’t stay healthy and wasn’t durable, correct.

Hell, 2010 and 2011 Wade aren’t far off from prime Kobe Bryant either. In fact he’s right there with him. Those seasons don’t get mentioned. He just didn’t have the health or longevity.

The gap between Kobe’s resume and Wade is closer than Kobe’s is to Jordan’s. You realize that, right?

3 ppg, one MVP, and one Finals MVP.

That’s it, besides defensive teams. And Kobe got a few he shouldn’t and Wade got hosed out of a few he should’ve.

Now, compare that to the difference of

5 ppg, 4x MVPs, 4x Finals MVPs.
Yet it didn't stop wade from winning a finals mvp first over kobe, which is just like giannis winning a finals mvp first over stephen curry despite being around five years younger. :oldlol:

[GimmeThat]

based on playoff numbers and size differences, Kevin Durant and Rick Barry?

[Chick Stern]

Wade......He was a better penetrator than Kobe.
This has become more apparent after he retired....

[Micku]

As people said, prime to prime, peak to peak, you could probably flip a coin. Wade was about the same lvl as Kobe, you could argue that he could be better in his peak.

Kobe had more finesse in his game and I think was a better 1 on 1 defender when he tried. Wade was a superior help defender and was more of a slasher than Kobe was.

Kobe had more of a scorer mentality than Wade did.

Career-wise, Kobe has more accolades and was elite longer than Wade was. That's what boils down to it. And Kobe was the "man" longer.

[HylianNightmare]

Peak Wade prime kobe