Lebron did "decision" because he couldnt win East so he can't take any team to Finals [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Kblaze8855

11-25-2022, 01:08 PM

I saw the topic, but admit to ignoring it. I was gonna tell him to go wash his bathtub instead of keeping the shower curtain closed because I can’t imagine he has many female visitors who prompt such cleaning but decided not to even speak.

There’s nothing more to say on any of these subjects. Dudes just getting out of bed and writing something they wrote 68 times before just to relieve the pressure of keeping Lebron criticism inside overnight I guess.

He wouldn’t get banned if he could think of something new.

If I put my mind to it I bet I could come up with something halfway different.

Hes made 1800 Lebron topics but only has like 12 things to say.

Where is his topic about Lebrons supposed 5 position defense being an over praised aspect of his game because in a league of stretch bigs that just means he’s a small forward? Shawn Marion could defend Tmac and Yao in the same game so obviously he could guard the entire nba now.

Why not ask where Lebrons post game went after he worked out with Hakeem?

Why not discuss how readily he acquiesced to the switch off KD for big shots in the finals? Just strolled away and let the warriors decide who defended KD down the stretch.

Know how many missed clutch free throws could be highlighted?

How many awful 08 and 2010 playoff games there are to talk about?

Put some gotdamn work in if you care so much. But no. He will come back and make some topic for the 88th time and get banned again by someone who isn’t too lazy to handle it like I am.

RRR3

11-25-2022, 01:19 PM

LeBron was one of the best post players in the league last year statistically it didn’t go anywhere. The other stuff sure he could talk about but he won’t.

WhiteKyrie

11-25-2022, 01:24 PM

Bron is scared to fail. So he’s predisposed to being a competitive coward, and needing to stack the deck, in order to win as easily as possible. What he doesn’t realize in his limited IQ, the level of difficulty makes things more rewarding and valuable.

Kblaze8855

11-25-2022, 01:27 PM

He shot 54% on 2 shots a game in the post which…today…is a lot. But it’s not something he uses at the rate he could when shots aren’t falling. It’s the modern version of 90s players who shot well on 3 but only took 78 the whole year.

Its good but…you know?

RRR3

11-25-2022, 01:37 PM

That’s more of a league wide issue than it is a LeBron issue. Who posts up a lot besides Embiid and Jokic?

Kblaze8855

11-25-2022, 01:50 PM

Nobody really does but if you aren’t going to do it why was footage released of you training at it? It’s like if DeMar DeRozan released footage of him at the Stephen Curry shooting school for two summers and then he has a season where he shoots like 38% but only takes one and a half a game.

It’s not that it’s bad….it’s more…why bother talking about it? Why show me videos?

I will remove one scoop of my criticism if publicizing it was Hakeem’s idea though. I know he was being paid for those services and I feel like I’ve seen both Kobe and Amare Stoudemire footage with him too. Maybe Dwight. Hakeem might’ve been the one trying to get that out there but I’m not sure.

RRR3

11-25-2022, 01:54 PM

He did post up more before the league moved away from it though. He also can’t really play in the paint much with the lineup the Lakers have.

Kblaze8855

11-25-2022, 02:22 PM

Lebron can probably do whatever he wants. But I’m not really talking that much about specific situations anyway. More an approach. And you’re right it is the whole league but it feels like such a glaring omission.

In this league with floors so spaced and big wings handling the ball top of the 3 point line often defended by guards? Guys like Lebron and Luka can use quick post ups to get the layups even analytics love.

Theres this impression that posting up is some slow low post bogging down the game thing. Look at this….

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ElectricWhisperedHoneyeater-size_restricted.gif

That’s a quick post up from 3 all the way into a layup and that’s with bigs in the way. Todays bigs can keep their man on the corner.

Gary Payton would be walking guys into layups at will in this league. The only wing that seems to realize how easy it is with a mismatch right now is Luka and even he could do it twice as often as he does. If LeBron had that Payton or Jordan ability to post up and get you where he wants you and finish with his passing and today’s shooting, there would be absolutely no way to slow him down.

guys are content to face up and try to blow by when someone like LeBron, who is Karl Malone size should be able to walk almost every wing in the NBA right into a layup from virtually anywhere.

It’s seen as an old school approach but it’s just common sense at times. They guard you one on one with someone you have 60 pounds on…walk him down and lay it up.

1987_Lakers

11-25-2022, 02:24 PM

I read somehwhere that Luka has the most post points this year, or something like that.

1987_Lakers

11-25-2022, 02:26 PM

1987_Lakers

11-25-2022, 02:28 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI8wq7vUxoo&t

GimmeThat

11-25-2022, 02:28 PM

read this carefully, he did "decision" because people literally couldn't "listen".

Kblaze8855

11-25-2022, 02:37 PM

Players who lead the league in one-on-one situations (post-up and isolation points combined)

Luka Doncic - 20.1
Joel Embiid - 17.7
Pascal Siakam - 13.3
Kevin Durant - 13.3
Zion Williamson - 13.2

Per Twitter

Yea Luka shows signs of seeing the obvious. You don’t have to faceup and stall the offense to get a layup. 130 years into basketball we forgot that sometimes….youre just bigger than the other guy. Take him to the paint or make them double…

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HastyFewLeafcutterant-size_restricted.gif

tontoz

11-25-2022, 03:24 PM

Luka is currently shooting 61% on 2s. It is really hard to shoot 60%+ on 2s with high volume for a whole season. Giannis/Jokic/Lebron/Shaq have done it but off the top of my head i can't think of any others.

Edit: Somehow forgot McHale

WhiteKyrie

11-25-2022, 03:56 PM

Axe

11-25-2022, 04:01 PM

So it's kong again. The very same guy who went 16-6 against your kobe in the rs h2h. Interesting.

Phoenix

11-25-2022, 05:20 PM

Yea Luka shows signs of seeing the obvious. You don’t have to faceup and stall the offense to get a layup. 130 years into basketball we forgot that sometimes….youre just bigger than the other guy. Take him to the paint or make them double…

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HastyFewLeafcutterant-size_restricted.gif

This is pretty much the most effective means of posting up today, have the ball-handler dribble themselves into position like Luka is doing here. The 2nd would be pairing up Embiid with Steph. Enjoy drinking whichever poison you pick there.

I'd like to see Giannis do what Luka is doing here but he doesn't have that level of footwork. I wonder if Hakeem is still taking clients....

SATAN

11-25-2022, 06:33 PM

Ding, ding. It’s a casualty of AAU style basketball, tbh. LeBron can’t even do this and he’s 20 some odd years deep.

Yes he's not capable. He's never ever done it before.

Random guy on the internet with a picture of Kyrie sticking his finger up at somebody.

:facepalm

3ba11

11-26-2022, 03:27 PM

Yea Luka shows signs of seeing the obvious. You don’t have to faceup and stall the offense to get a layup. 130 years into basketball we forgot that sometimes….youre just bigger than the other guy. Take him to the paint or make them double…

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/HastyFewLeafcutterant-size_restricted.gif

^^^ the easiest way to get a layup is to go stand under the rim and call for the ball (off-ball)

TEAM ASSIST RANK

Dallas..... 30th.

^^^ gonna need a lot of help to win - weaker brands/strategy require more supporting TALENT

Lebron already showed us that big man ball-dominance requires super-team talent yet still mostly fields losers and underdogs

RRR3

11-26-2022, 03:43 PM

^^^ the easiest way to get a layup is to go stand under the rim and call for the ball (off-ball)

TEAM ASSIST RANK

Dallas..... 30th.

^^^ gonna need a lot of help to win - weaker brands/strategy require more supporting TALENT

Lebron already showed us that big man ball-dominance requires super-team talent yet still mostly fields losers and underdogs
Better behave yourself if you don’t want another ban.

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 03:52 PM

^^^ the easiest way to get a layup is to go stand under the rim and call for the ball (off-ball)

TEAM ASSIST RANK

Dallas..... 30th.

^^^ gonna need a lot of help to win - weaker brands/strategy require more supporting TALENT

Lebron already showed us that big man ball-dominance requires super-team talent yet still mostly fields losers and underdogs

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d3/15/86/d315861178ede7010dd30cbc297dbd9b.gif

3ba11

11-26-2022, 03:53 PM

Better behave yourself if you don’t want another ban.

Did you notice that Luka is shooting 29% on threes?

A trash 3-point shooter in today's game getting 34/9/8 as the best player in the game.

Ditto SGA and Giannis - all the best players don't shoot threes (except Currygoat)

So why do you guys say MJ couldn't play today?... Unlike Luka, Jordan actually shot well whenever he had volume (anything more than 1.5 attempts).. So MJ would literally average 50 today or close.. 45+ is absolutely legitimate.

I know.. I'm going to get banned again... :facepalm:

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 03:55 PM

Did you notice that Luka is shooting 29% on threes?

A trash 3-point shooter in today's game getting 34/9/8 as the best player in the game.

Ditto SGA and Giannis - all the best players don't shoot threes (except Currygoat)

So why do you guys say MJ couldn't play today?... Unlike Luka, Jordan actually shot well whenever he had volume (anything more than 1.5 attempts).. So MJ would literally average 50 today or close.. 45+ is absolutely legitimate.

I know.. I'm going to get banned again... :facepalm:

https://media3.giphy.com/media/6KukVPliFsbHW/giphy.gif

3ba11

11-26-2022, 04:01 PM

https://media3.giphy.com/media/6KukVPliFsbHW/giphy.gif

My stuff is on realgm (MDA screen name) and people agree with me over there.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2239978&start=160

And Pippen is losing my poll over there:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2243203

That being said, I was banned for being a returning user that was previously banned.. The real facts and logic gave it away

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 04:06 PM

My stuff is on realgm (MDA screen name) and people agree with me over there.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2239978&start=160

And Pippen is losing my poll over there:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2243203

That being said, I was banned for being a returning user that was previously banned.. The real facts and logic gave it away

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0579/7061/files/hourglass.gif?10139010899704076681

ShawkFactory

11-26-2022, 04:10 PM

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0579/7061/files/hourglass.gif?10139010899704076681

I have to admit, it’s funny seeing them over there seriously make the very obvious counter arguments that ISH did like 8 years ago not knowing that it doesn’t matter :lol

Avinash

11-26-2022, 04:12 PM

Democrats had a hand in fixing this superteams for Lebron

3ba11

11-26-2022, 04:15 PM

I have to admit, it’s funny seeing them over there seriously make the very obvious counter arguments that ISH did like 8 years ago not knowing that it doesn’t matter :lol

I don't make arguments - I just point out the historical record.

And I wasn't allowed to correct the misperceptions that people posted in response because I was banned

There's no argument for Pippen's worst-ever efficiency - there's no "pace" argument against that... :confusedshrug:

Pippen had the worst efficiency, passing, spacing and clutch of any notable 90's sidekick - there's no counter to these facts..

Similar to Westbrick, Pippen was a massive lane-clogger that Lebron could never win with.. Lebron is a stiff-armer that needs open lanes - he can't shoot over defenses like MJ, Kobe or Curry... But keep enjoying your fraud lol

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 04:18 PM

I have to admit, it’s funny seeing them over there seriously make the very obvious counter arguments that ISH did like 8 years ago not knowing that it doesn’t matter :lol

He says Pippen is losing the poll when there's only been 3 total votes casts, 2 for Scottie and 1 for Penny Hardaday. It's a landslide!

The irony of it all is that Pippen being a '5-6 apg' is basically what Kobe was getting in the triangle, but you don't see 3nutball making 1000 threads about Kobe being a bad passer. Of course, any poster worth their salt would simply debunk that the triangle deflates assist numbers. John Stockton wouldn't be posting 10 apg in the triangle, so......

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 04:19 PM

3ba11

11-26-2022, 04:23 PM

https://healed1337.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/24e22a2bb980353036b08f72de8ed5ed.gif

Yes you're the resident cartoon expert

I'm the resident hoops expert, along with warriorsfan and others

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 04:24 PM

Yes you're the resident cartoon expert

I'm the resident hoops expert, along with warriorsfan and others

You're the resident getting banned expert. Please keep going.....

ShawkFactory

11-26-2022, 04:26 PM

I don't make arguments - I just point out the historical record.

And I wasn't allowed to correct the misperceptions that people posted in response because I was banned

There's no argument for Pippen's worst-ever efficiency - there's no "pace" argument against that... :confusedshrug:

Pippen had the worst efficiency, passing, spacing and clutch of any notable 90's sidekick - there's no counter to these facts..

Similar to Westbrick, Pippen was a massive lane-clogger that Lebron could never win with.. Lebron is a stiff-armer that needs open lanes - he can't shoot over defenses like MJ, Kobe or Curry... But keep enjoying your fraud lol

He says Pippen is losing the poll when there's only been 3 total votes casts, 2 for Scottie and 1 for Penny Hardaday. It's a landslide!

The irony of it all is that Pippen being a '5-6 apg' is basically what Kobe was getting in the triangle, but you don't see 3nutball making 1000 threads about Kobe being a bad passer. Of course, any poster worth their salt would simply debunk that the triangle deflates assist numbers. John Stockton wouldn't be posting 10 apg in the triangle, so......

Yes, these are more obvious counter-arguments.

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 04:40 PM

Yes, these are more obvious counter-arguments.

Funny thing is, the 'historical record' shows that Scottie actually had the highest APG in the triangle between himself, MJ and Kobe, 7apg in 1992. I'll save the person who replies 'bu bu bu Scottie didn't have the same scoring responsibilities so his assists should be higher' the trouble, when Kobe was averaging 'Pippen scoring numbers' in 99 and 2000 he was dropping 4-5 assists playing off peak Shaq, playing 38 minutes a night with higher usage.

3ba11

11-26-2022, 05:03 PM

He says Pippen is losing the poll when there's only been 3 total votes casts, 2 for Scottie and 1 for Penny Hardaday. It's a landslide!

The irony of it all is that Pippen being a '5-6 apg' is basically what Kobe was getting in the triangle, but you don't see 3nutball making 1000 threads about Kobe being a bad passer. Of course, any poster worth their salt would simply debunk that the triangle deflates assist numbers. John Stockton wouldn't be posting 10 apg in the triangle, so......

Pippen was a 5-assist guy outside the triangle despite less scoring responsibility with Houston or Portland, and despite playing the point guard position with more scoring options on his team to rack up dimes.. Yet he was still just a 5-assist guy - 14/5 on 40% in Houston as 3rd option and even worse in Portland.

Furthermore, Jordan averaged 8-11 assists in the 91' Finals and other series, while Kobe averaged 8.3 in the 10' WCF - so elite assists were possible within the triangle, but Pippen's lack of breakdown ability off-the-dribble prevented him from elite assist capability.. Pippen's lack of breakdown handle and elite assist capability is why Pippen cannot be compared to breakdown ball-handlers like Jordan, Kobe or Stockton that were capable of elite assists.

So the stats support my view (no elite assist capability regardless of triangle), along with the eye test (no breakdown handle, so no elite assist capability).. If the Bulls needed elite assists or scoring, then MJ was the only option... Otoh, everyone else like Malone, Mourning, or Barkley enjoyed elite breakdown and assist capability from their sidekick.. Ultimately, the term "facilitator" began with Pippen as a euphemism to describe an unselfish player that didn't have a breakdown handle and couldn't achieve elite assists.

The historical record and stats show that Pippen had the worst passing, efficiency, clutch, and spacing of any notable 90's sidekick.. Accodingly, a spotty-shooting, ball-dominator like Lebron (that can't shoot over defenses and therefore needs wide driving lanes) could never win with a lane-clogger like Pippen, let alone his decade-worst passing, efficiency, or clutch among 90's sidekicks.

SouBeachTalents

11-26-2022, 05:09 PM

Pippen was a 5-assist guy outside the triangle despite less scoring responsibility with Houston or Portland, and despite playing the point guard position with more scoring options on his team to rack up dimes.. Yet he was still just a 5-assist guy - 14/5 on 40% in Houston as 3rd option and even worse in Portland.

Furthermore, Jordan averaged 8-11 assists in the 91' Finals and other series, while Kobe averaged 8.3 in the 10' WCF - so elite assists were possible within the triangle, but Pippen's lack of breakdown ability off-the-dribble prevented him from elite assist capability.. Pippen's lack of breakdown handle and elite assist capability is why Pippen cannot be compared to breakdown ball-handlers like Jordan, Kobe or Stockton that were capable of elite assists.

So the stats support my view (no elite assist capability regardless of triangle), along with the eye test (no breakdown handle, so no elite assist capability).. If the Bulls needed elite assists or scoring, then MJ was the only option... Otoh, everyone else like Malone, Mourning, or Barkley enjoyed elite breakdown and assist capability from their sidekick.. Ultimately, the term "facilitator" began with Pippen as a euphemism to describe an unselfish player that didn't have a breakdown handle and couldn't achieve elite assists.

The historical record and stats show that Pippen had the worst passing, efficiency, clutch, and spacing of any notable 90's sidekick.. Accodingly, a spotty-shooting, ball-dominator like Lebron (that can't shoot over defenses and therefore needs wide driving lanes) could never win with a lane-clogger like Pippen, let alone his decade-worst passing, efficiency, or clutch among 90's sidekicks.
:roll: Some life you lead 3ball.

3ba11

11-26-2022, 05:29 PM

:roll: Some life you lead 3ball.

Let's pretend that I was allowed to post that response on realgm before getting banned... how would posters have responded? or is the banning infact a concession in itself that there's no response?

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 06:17 PM

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 06:21 PM

Let's pretend that I was allowed to post that response on realgm before getting banned... how would posters have responded? or is the banning infact a concession in itself that there's no response?

Didn't Kblaze say the other day to get new material? Shit if you want to keep Jordan's cawk in your mouth all day bring up some new conversations. You're not getting banned because you say some shit that can't be countered, it's because you regurgitate the exact same talking points and threads. You're doing it right now. I'm almost inclined to think you're a mod burner account, because nobody can possibly be this stupid otherwise to keep doing what has literally gotten you banned twice within the last week.

3ba11

11-26-2022, 07:44 PM

Since we know this is more regurgitated ban-worthy bullshit, my eyes skimmed over your post. But out of what I feel like replying to, Scottie was also the highest assist guy in the triangle out of the best perimeter guys to play within it, which was my point. Higher than Kobe when he was dropping 20-22 next to Shaq. Having a few series here and there of higher than norm assist numbers in the triangle doesn't prove anything, they're outliers. Otherwise MJ or Kobe would have been dropping those kinds of assists per season and not cherry-picked playoff series. Scottie himself had a few series where he averaged 8 assists, big whoop.

Once again you have it backwards - Pippen getting basically the same assists as Jordan within the triangle confirms his weak passing ability since he should have a significant gap in assists over Jordan given the scoring gap.. :facepalm:.. How can you praise getting basically the same assists as Jordan but half the scoring - that's pathetic and shows how weak a passer Pippen was.

Ultimately, Jordan has significant samples of elite assist production outside the triangle and a few within it, while Pippen has literally zero examples of elite assist production at any point in his career.

Elite assist production requires a breakdown handle, which Pippen lacks - that's why he averaged less assists than every notable 90's sidekick and wasn't capable of elite assists like they were... The triangle numbers are irrelevant and he averaged less assists outside the triangle, which proves that the triangle actually propped up his assist and scoring numbers - he was worse than Jeff Green outside the system that he grew up in.

Pippen simply had the worst passing, efficiency, clutch and spacing of any notable 90's sidekick - so people have it backwards when they say Jordan "needed" Pippen since he actually won with less passing and scoring help than his peers.
.
Btw, it wasn't a few one-offs for Jordan getting high assists - Jordan averaged 31/7/11 in the 91' Finals and 36/9/10 in the upset of Ewing's Knicks in 89'.. Or 30/9/11 in the point guard run in 89' (33/8/8 for the year).. Jordan also averaged more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff career (85-93' vs 06-14') before Curry's pace and space era made stats easier for everyone.. Jordan also averaged 36/7/8 for the 91-93' Finals.

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 07:56 PM

The question was whether Pippen is the worst passer among 90's sidekicks like Stockton, Payton, Hardaway, etc..

So what you're really asking is 'Is Scottie Pippen a worse passer than a cherry-picked selection of the best 90's point guards that I'll call 'sidekicks' to suit the agenda'? What's your next mind-bending poll? 'Is Scottie Pippen the worst rebounder amongst Barkley, Rodman, and Willis?'

That disingenious shit above is why you were sent to your room without supper the last few nights. Stockton, Payton, Hardaway, KJ etc were the best PGs in the league, and in a few cases were the best player on their team (KJ right before Barkley, Payton and Kemp could be considered 1 and 1a interchangeably). So is Scottie Pippen a worse passer than John Stockton, arguably a top 5 all-time passer and the far and away leader in assists? No shit. Why don't you be original and ask where does Scottie Pippen's passing ability rank amongst 90's small forwards. That at least would be some new material.

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 07:58 PM

Once again you have it backwards - Pippen getting basically the same assists as Jordan within the triangle confirms his weak passing ability since he should have a significant gap in assists over Jordan given the scoring gap.. :facepalm:.. How can you praise getting basically the same assists as Jordan but half the scoring - that's pathetic and shows how weak a passer Pippen was.

Ultimately, Jordan has significant samples of elite assist production outside the triangle and a few within it, while Pippen has literally zero examples of elite assist production at any point in his career.

Elite assist production requires a breakdown handle, which Pippen lacks - that's why he averaged less assists than every notable 90's sidekick and wasn't capable of elite assists like they were... The triangle numbers are irrelevant and he averaged less assists outside the triangle, which proves that the triangle actually propped up his assist and scoring numbers - he was worse than Jeff Green outside the system that he grew up in.

Pippen simply had the worst passing, efficiency, clutch and spacing of any notable 90's sidekick - so people have it backwards when they say Jordan "needed" Pippen since he actually won with less passing and scoring help than his peers.
.
Btw, it wasn't a few one-offs for Jordan getting high assists - Jordan averaged 31/7/11 in the 91' Finals and 36/9/10 in the upset of Ewing's Knicks in 89'.. Or 30/9/11 in the point guard run in 89' (33/8/8 for the year).. Jordan also averaged more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff career (85-93' vs 06-14') before Curry's pace and space era made stats easier for everyone.. Jordan also averaged 36/7/8 for the 91-93' Finals.

Didn't read, you're a clown. Call it a concession or whatever makes your life worth living. Looking forward to your next ban.

3ba11

11-26-2022, 08:15 PM

Didn't read, you're a clown. Call it a concession or whatever makes your life worth living. Looking forward to your next ban.

Don't be mad - you're the one that said the triangle lowered Pippen's assists when they infact propped them up... :confusedshrug:

The stats show that Pippen clearly had the worst assists, efficiency, clutch and spacing/shooting of any notable 90's sidekick, so people have it backwards when they say Jordan "needed" Pippen since he won with less passing and scoring help than his peers.

Okay, now I accept your concession and I hope you feel better

SATAN

11-26-2022, 08:19 PM

OP is extremely gay.

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 08:24 PM

Don't be mad - you're the one that said the triangle lowered Pippen's assists when they infact propped them up... :confusedshrug:

The stats show that Pippen clearly had the worst assists, efficiency, clutch and spacing/shooting of any notable 90's sidekick, so people have it backwards when they say Jordan "needed" Pippen since he won with less passing and scoring help than his peers.

Okay, now I accept your concession and I hope you feel better

I said the triangle deflated assists numbers in general, not just Pippens. Calling out a few series of MJ or Kobe getting high asssits like the 91 finals or 2010 WCFs is irrelevant, they're outliers. Its a ball movement system designed for it not to stick to any one person and discourage ball dominance. You claim to be a Jordan disciple but don't seem to grasp the fundamental point of the system that anchored his greatest team achievements.

You only wish you had the power to affect my mood. There's no concession on my part. I said call it one if it helps you not slit your throat because with a life like yours, I can't imagine it not being a consideration, especially when Kblaze or RMWG put you in timeout. You post the same shit so whatever you wrote above, you've already said 1000 times before. Get some new material.

3ba11

11-26-2022, 09:05 PM

the triangle deflated assists numbers in general, not just Pippens.

Pippen averaged less assists outside the triangle, so the triangle has nothing to do with Pippen's assist deficit compared to other 90's sidekicks - the triangle actually propped up Pippen's assists and made the passing gap with his peers a little less.

The real reason Pippen couldn't get elite assists is because elite assist production requires a breakdown handle, which Pippen lacks.. Otoh, Jordan had the breakdown handle, so he was capable of elite assists and provided it in critical times when the triangle needed it or for significant junctures before the triangle.

the triangle deflated assists numbers in general

^^^ That means Jordan won with less playmaking help and floor-generalship than other stars enjoyed like Malone, Kemp, Barkley, Zo and Shaq, who enjoyed sidekicks that routinely averaged 10+ assists.

So Pippen's "playmaking" role is completely overrated and less than what other stars received from their sidekick. He was a cog in the triangle carriage that Jordan was dragging.

Since the triangle gave Jordan less playmaking help from the sidekick than other stars enjoyed and actually required him to co-lead the playmaking, we can look at the stats for what they are - i.e. Pippen had the worst assists, efficiency, clutch and spacing of any notable 90's sidekick, so people have it backwards when they say Jordan "needed" Pippen since he actually won with less passing and scoring help than his peers.

Calling out a few series of MJ or Kobe getting high asssits like the 91 finals or 2010 WCFs is irrelevant.

It shows that Jordan had elite assist capability within the triangle and significant sample of elite assists outside of it

Pippen wasn't capable of elite assists in or out of the triangle and averaged less outside the triangle.

is irrelevant.

The Bulls would win a lot more with Tim Hardaway in Pippen's place and Horry to play SF and provide real spacing and clutch... or anyone that was a solid defender and at least not incompetent offensively, aka no "rodmans"..

Horry said that he would lock up Pippen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZpVlMVYr-A&t=24s) and his peak capability in the Finals was superior, aka Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals.. Horry hit 100 big shots for his 7 rings, while Pippen hit none for his 6.

RRR3

11-26-2022, 09:09 PM

3ball see a therapist dude. You’ll feel better. Honest advice.

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 09:17 PM

3ball see a therapist dude. You’ll feel better. Honest advice.

No let him keep digging a hole. Its one of the few joys of hanging around here.

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 09:20 PM

@ 3ball, didn't read any of that because its more copy and paste bullshit. We know what you think.

3ba11

11-26-2022, 09:22 PM

@ 3ball, didn't read any of that because its more copy and paste bullshit. We know what you think.

Cool.. Thanks for pointing out how the triangle gave Jordan the least playmaking help and required him to co-lead the playmaking, while also lessening Pippen's assist deficit to his sidekick peers

You solidified all my points so I thank you.. :bowdown:

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 09:25 PM

I'm good.. Anyone can see that I defeated all your arguments about the triangle deflating Pippen's assists (they literally propped them up) - I point out the irrefutable historical record, so now you're back to "ban him".. carry on

Imagine a life so worthless that you base your entire day around thinking you've defeated some random posters arguments. I couldn't give a fukk where my arguments land on the win/lose scale. Go get some pVssy, pay for it if you have to. I'm not asking for you to be banned, I just think its hilarious that after being banned twice you resort to the same schtick. You and this board deserve each other.

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 09:26 PM

Cool.. Thanks for pointing out how the triangle gave Jordan the least playmaking help and required him to co-lead the playmaking, while also propping UP pippen's assists.

You solidified all my points so I thank you.. :bowdown:

Scottie averaged the highest apg in the triangle. Thanks for reminding me to point that out again. :bowdown:

Oh I got 3ball mad now, he's F5ing like a mutha :oldlol:

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 09:29 PM

3ball see a therapist dude. You’ll feel better. Honest advice.

I'm convinced Scottie cawked his mother. Dude is obsessed :oldlol:

3ba11

11-26-2022, 09:35 PM

Imagine a life so worthless that you base your entire day around thinking you've defeated some random posters arguments. I couldn't give a fukk where my arguments land on the win/lose scale. Go get some pVssy, pay for it if you have to. I'm not asking for you to be banned, I just think its hilarious that after being banned twice you resort to the same schtick. You and this board deserve each other.

I honestly appreciate you for responding and helping solidify all my points because you're right - the triangle's non-point-guard approach gave Jordan the least playmaking help compared to his peers and forced him to co-lead the playmaking.. Ironically, the triangle normally deflates the assists of an elite-assist player but for lower-assist capability like Pippen it actually inflated his paltry assist totals and lowered his assist deficit compared to other sidekicks.

TLDR: the triangle didn't just carry Pippen's scoring, it carried his assists too

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 09:45 PM

I honestly appreciate you for responding and helping solidify all my points because you're right - the triangle's non-point-guard approach gave Jordan the least playmaking help compared to his peers and forced him to co-lead the playmaking.. Ironically, the triangle normally deflates the assists of an elite assist player but in Pippen's case it actually inflated his paltry assist totals and lowered his assist deficit compared to his peers.

And I honestly appreciate your follow-up and helping solidify that having the non-point guard approach took the Bulls from losing to the same team 3 straight years to one that facilitated ball and player movement, removed the core playmaking from MJ and implemented a shared co-playmaking approach with Scottie who ended up producing the most apg by anyone in the triangle. All the while demonstrating a lack of understanding of the Triangle's purpose and getting owned both on this board and the one you run to whenever you're cut off from this one. You're a trooper. :cheers:

3ba11

11-26-2022, 09:51 PM

And I appreciate your follow-up and helping solidify that having the non-point guard approach took the Bulls from losing to the same team 3 straight years to one that facilatied ball and player movement, removed the core playmaking from MJ and implemented a shared co-playmaking approach with Scottie who ended up producing the most assists by anyone in the triangle. You're a trooper. :cheers:

I'm glad that you went there.. Only an equitable system that elevated role players was going to overcome the Pistons' superior talent..

But the only reason the triangle was possible is because it had goat play from the off-guard (quick iso) position - a ball-dominator would kill the offense and not allow the Bulls' lesser talent to overcome the Pistons.

SouBeachTalents

11-26-2022, 09:55 PM

And I honestly appreciate your follow-up and helping solidify that having the non-point guard approach took the Bulls from losing to the same team 3 straight years to one that facilitated ball and player movement, removed the core playmaking from MJ and implemented a shared co-playmaking approach with Scottie who ended up producing the most apg by anyone in the triangle. All the while demonstrating a lack of understanding of the Triangle's purpose and getting owned both on this board and the one you run to whenever you're cut off from this one. You're a trooper. :cheers:
Bro, seriously, it doesn't matter what you post, if you destroy his argument or insult him, any response 3ball gets is a win for him. The fact he's spending his Thanksgiving weekend doing this, and even going so far as to make an account on another forum when banned here shows this is legitimately his only social interaction in life. Ignoring him is the best way to tell him to go fck himself :lol And will actually hurt him the most.

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 10:00 PM

I'm glad that you went there.. Only an equitable system that elevated role players was going to overcome the Pistons' superior talent..

But the only reason the triangle was possible is because it had goat play from the off-guard (quick iso) position - a ball-dominator would kill the offense and not allow the Bulls' lesser talent to overcome the Pistons.

I'm also glad you went there. If the system was 'equitable' and everyone could achieve those assist numbers then why were MJ and Scottie the only ones averaging 5-7 assists? What were John Paxson, BJ Armstrong and Ron Harpers assist numbers those years? I assume those guys at some point must have managed 5-6 assists a few of those seasons yeah?

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 10:02 PM

Bro, seriously, it doesn't matter what you post, if you destroy his argument or insult him, any response 3ball gets is a win for him. The fact he's spending his Thanksgiving weekend doing this, and even going so far as to make an account on another forum when banned here shows this is legitimately his only social interaction in life. Ignoring him is the best way to tell him to go fck himself :lol And will actually hurt him the most.

I can't disagree with any of that. If I thought putting him on ignore would matter, I woiuld have ages ago but he gets quoted too much so you end up seeing his posts anyway.You're right though, this is clearly his only means of social outlet. I can imagine his room looking like Ray Finkles from Ace Ventura.

3ba11

11-26-2022, 10:15 PM

I'm also glad you went there. If the system was 'equitable' and everyone could achieve those assist numbers then why were MJ and Scottie the only ones averaging 5-7 assists? What were John Paxson, BJ Armstrong and Ron Harpers assist numbers those years? I assume those guys at some point must have managed 5-6 assists a few of those seasons yeah?

I never said Pippen wasn't better than BJ or Paxson - there's only so many assists available, aka the best teams average 25-30 assists.

But Pippen's playmaking ability was below other sidekicks - he was actually inflated by the triangle, which was a pedestrian offense without goat off-guard play..

A goat off-guard that could carry the scoring load, close key possessions and dominate on the post was the key that unlocked the triangle and allowed winning without super-team talent

Phoenix

11-26-2022, 10:31 PM

I never said Pippen wasn't better than BJ or Paxson.

But Pippen's playmaking ability was below other sidekicks - he was actually inflated by the triangle, which was a pedestrian offense without goat off-guard play..

A goat off-guard that could carry the scoring load was the key that unlocked the triangle and allowed winning without super-team talent

No, but your use of the term equitable isn't meant to compliment Pippen. Again, if the offense was equaitable the assist load would have been spread beyond Jordan and Pippen and onto the other ball-handlers. No, what Scottie gave the Bulls was a reliable ballhandler and decision-maker that afforded the Bulls the luxury of moving MJ off-ball and relegating the other guards (Paxson, BJ) to spot-up shooters.

Yeah, the other 'sidekicks' in your case being cherry-picked elite point guards in traditional offenses where the PG is the sole distributor. What were Scottie's assist numbers compared to other small forwards and shooting guards of the era? Likely at the top of the list, which is where he should be instead of questioning why he wasn't averaging 10 assists like John Stockton, playing in an offense specifically designed for someone to not do that, a few cherry-picked series aside like the 91 finals(where Jordan had a 32% usage rate, so yeah he should have had high assist numbers).

A goat off-guard that wasn't winning anything until an offense was installed basically showing him he could win more by doing less.

3ba11

11-27-2022, 02:47 PM

No, but your use of the term equitable isn't meant to compliment Pippen. Again, if the offense was equaitable the assist load would have been spread beyond Jordan and Pippen and onto the other ball-handlers. No, what Scottie gave the Bulls was a reliable ballhandler and decision-maker that afforded the Bulls the luxury of moving MJ off-ball and relegating the other guards (Paxson, BJ) to spot-up shooters.

Yeah, the other 'sidekicks' in your case being cherry-picked elite point guards in traditional offenses where the PG is the sole distributor. What were Scottie's assist numbers compared to other small forwards and shooting guards of the era? Likely at the top of the list, which is where he should be instead of questioning why he wasn't averaging 10 assists like John Stockton, playing in an offense specifically designed for someone to not do that, a few cherry-picked series aside like the 91 finals(where Jordan had a 32% usage rate, so yeah he should have had high assist numbers).

A goat off-guard that wasn't winning anything until an offense was installed basically showing him he could win more by doing less.

Why do you keep pretending that the only reason Pippen had lower assists than other sidekicks is because of the triangle?... Pippen averaged less assists OUTSIDE of the triangle - the triangle was propping up Pippen's assists and scoring.. The assist deficit to other sidekicks would've been bigger without the triangle, so Pippen was simply the worst passer among notable 90's sidekicks, while also having the worst scoring (efficiency, spacing, clutch, system player, not a go-to player).

And it's hilarious to see you contradict yourself by lying that the Bulls put Pippen on-ball but then saying the triangle didn't allow him to get assists.. The reality is that everyone in the triangle played off-ball including Pippen because there was no point guard role - everyone ran the same routes and the lack of point guard role is why Jordan had the least playmaking help ever, in addition Pippen being a worse passer than everyone anyway (he averaged less assists outside the triangle).

Thanks for clearing all this up.. I really appreciate it and will destroy future posters that try to make arguments on the triangle's behalf - it provided MJ with the least playmaking help of anyone in the 90's and forced him to co-lead the playmaking!!!... aka goat

And MJ always played off-ball.. MJ never ran the point except the brief period in 89', so there was no notion that "we can move MJ off-ball now because we have Pippen"... MJ was always off-ball and the triangle put everyone off-ball including Pippen - that's why the triangle gave MJ no playmaking help.. Ultimately, it's goat that MJ and Kobe won with an offense that everyone else hates and can't play in.

And MJ didn't do less in the triangle - he averaged 34/7/7 for the 91'-93' Playoffs, including 41/9/6 in the 93' Finals and 36/7/8 for the 91-93' Finals.. So the triangle made him carry a bigger load but within a more effective team strategy that allowed teammates to play to capacity - but only MJ could score in a fashion that allowed the offense to work, aka goat off-guard play (score quickly and with low turnovers).

Finally, usage doesn't measure ball-domination - it measures shot attempts - it has nothing to do with assists.. So there's a lot of ignorance about hoops in your last post.. :confusedshrug:

Phoenix

11-27-2022, 03:05 PM

Why do you keep pretending that the only reason Pippen had lower assists than other sidekicks is because of the triangle?... Pippen averaged less assists OUTSIDE of the triangle - the triangle was propping up Pippen's assists and scoring.. The assist deficit to other sidekicks would've been bigger without the triangle, so Pippen was simply the worst passer among notable 90's sidekicks, while also having the worst scoring (efficiency, spacing, clutch, system player, not a go-to player).

And it's hilarious to see you contradict yourself by lying that the Bulls put Pippen on-ball but then saying the triangle didn't allow him to get assists.. The reality is that everyone in the triangle played off-ball including Pippen because there was no point guard role - everyone ran the same routes and the lack of point guard role is why Jordan had the least playmaking help ever, in addition Pippen being a worse passer than everyone anyway (he averaged less assists outside the triangle).

Thanks for clearing all this up.. I really appreciate it and will destroy future posters that try to make arguments on the triangle's behalf - it provided MJ with the least playmaking help of anyone in the 90's and forced him to co-lead the playmaking!!!... aka goat

And MJ always played off-ball.. MJ never ran the point except the brief period in 89', so there was no notion that "we can move MJ off-ball now because we have Pippen"... MJ was always off-ball and the triangle put everyone off-ball including Pippen - that's why the triangle gave MJ no playmaking help.. Ultimately, it's goat that MJ and Kobe won with an offense that everyone else hates and can't play in.

And MJ didn't do less in the triangle - he averaged 34/7/7 for the 91'-93' Playoffs, including 41/9/6 in the 93' Finals and 36/7/8 for the 91-93' Finals.. The triangle made him carry a bigger load but within a more effective team strategy that allowed teammates to play to capacity - only MJ could score in this fashion that allowed the offense to work (quickly and with low turnovers).

Finally, usage doesn't measure ball-domination - it measures shot attempts - it has nothing to do with assists.. So there's a lot of ignorance about hoops in your last post.. :confusedshrug:

Skimmed through the majority of the regurgitated bullshit above. You're of the opinion that you writing long diatribes of copy/paste nonsense warrants the effort to read through and digest. You already said what you said above 1000 times before, a few sentences of glossing over it is all that's needed. And those points have all been addressed, so I'm not addressing them again.

Usage measures the amount of time per possession a player uses towards one of three outcomes, a free throw, a turnover, or a field goal. I said nothing of ball-domination or that usage rate specifically meant assists. But a player using a significant amount of a possession with the ball has a higher probability of a score for themselves or creating a scoring opportunity for someone else than someone with lower usage( so they're less involved in the possession). Luka, for example, having a high usage rate( and yes he is ball-dominant) accounts for being able to drop 34 points while also dropping 8 assists. If he played more as an off-ball scorer his usage would drop, and by extension his assists obviously would as well.

3ba11

11-27-2022, 03:17 PM

Skimmed through the majority of the regurgitated bullshit above. You're of the opinion that you writing long diatribes of copy/paste nonsense warrants the effort to read through and digest. You already said what you said above 1000 times before, a few sentences of glossing over it is all that's needed. And those points have all been addressed, so I'm not addressing them again.

Usage measures the amount of time per possession a player uses towards one of three outcomes, a free throw, a turnover, or a field goal. And in the case of the latter, that doesn't mean exclusively that the field goal be taken by that specific player, so it can very easily mean a field goal generated via an assist to another player. I said nothing of ball-domination or that usage rate specifically meant assists.

Alot of ignorance about hoops in your last sentence.

None of that is copy-paste

I methodically went through each of your points and addressed them.. My post wasn't copy-pasted anymore than yours

Your argument was simply defeated - you said the triangle deflated Pippen's assists when they actually inflated them.. Pippen was simply the worst passer and scorer of any notable 90's sidekick - the stats prove this like APG, efficiency, shooting splits, clutch stats, peak scoring capability.. Otoh, you have nothing to back up your claims and your claims were proven wrong and opposite of the truth.

Spurs m8

11-27-2022, 03:19 PM

Phoenix

11-27-2022, 03:19 PM

Bodybagged him

When was the last time you contributed a post of value other than tagging onto someone elses?

Phoenix

11-27-2022, 03:22 PM

None of that is copy-paste

I methodically went through each of your points and addressed them.. My post wasn't copy-pasted anymore than yours

Your argument was simply defeated - you said the triangle deflated Pippen's assists when they actually inflated them.. Pippen was simply the worst passer and scorer of any notable 90's sidekick - the stats prove this like APG, efficiency, shooting splits, clutch stats, peak scoring capability.. Otoh, you have nothing to back up your claims and your claims were proven wrong and opposite of the truth.

Alot of regurgitated nonsense, not only in this thread but in others.

What's Scottie's assists compared to other small forwards and shooting guards instead of the elite PGs you compared him against? When you can show me his asssits rate was inferior to players at his position and not to PGs who have the express goal of facilitating for others in non-triangle offenses, then you can talk about defeating something. Your claims about Scottie's scoring have long been debunked because I personally came up with a list showing where Scottie outscored the opposing sidekick in the majority of playoff series when the Bulls were winning titles. Further, Scottie spent the majority of his prime inside the triangle and the only context of what assist numbers he dropped outside that was his first 2 years outside the triangle when he was a young player, and as a mid 30's player coming off back surgery in Portland sharing ballhandling responsibilties with Damon Stoudamire.

ShawkFactory

11-27-2022, 03:31 PM

Bodybagged him

You aren’t reading either guys posts :lol

3ba11

11-27-2022, 04:18 PM

Alot of regurgitated nonsense, not only in this thread but in others.

What's Scottie's assists compared to other small forwards and shooting guards instead of the elite PGs you compared him against? When you can show me his asssits rate was inferior to players at his position and not to PGs who have the express goal of facilitating for others in non-triangle offenses, then you can talk about defeating something. Your claims about Scottie's scoring have long been debunked because I personally came up with a list showing where Scottie outscored the opposing sidekick in the majority of playoff series when the Bulls were winning titles.

The triangle didn't have a point guard, so MJ had to win with lower-assist guys like Pippen..

And wings like MJ, Drexler, Penny, Bird or Hill averaged more assists than Pippen.. Other guys were comparable to Pippen too - Hornacek averaged 6 assists from 88-93', while Detlef Schrempf was a 5-6-assist guy like Pippen but often played 3rd or 4th option (like Pippen did outside the Bulls).. Reggie Theus was 6'7" guy that averaged 10 assists.. Alvin Robertson, Danny Ainge and Chris Mullin were also 5-6 assist guys..

Accordingly, many guards and forwards were getting 5+ assists, which makes the point pretty clear at this point - MJ simply had less passing and scoring help than his peers, which makes sense considering most people think he's goat.

Btw, every above-average sidekick outscores the opposing sidekick the majority of series, but only the best sidekicks actually dominate their matchup, which Pippen never did... So aside from his decade-worst passing, efficiency, clutch and spacing among 90's sidekicks, the biggest problem with Pippen was his lowest PEAK CAPABILITY among 90's sidekicks.. Pippen wasn't a threat to take over like every other sidekick and therefore wasn't on the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif), so MJ had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load)..

Heck, the worst sidekick that Jordan ever faced in the Finals was Terry Porter, who played better than Damian Lillard ever played in the 92' WCF, or the 92 and 90' Finals runs... So every 90's sidekick was infact a "1b" that could achieve elite stats and dominate, except Pippen.. Pippen is the only sidekick that was a transition player/hustler that couldn't achieve elite stats or dominate his matchup, so Mj was forced to defeat maximum defensive attention.

Phoenix

11-27-2022, 04:36 PM

The triangle didn't have a point guard, so MJ had to win with lower-assist guys like Pippen..

And wings like MJ, Drexler, Penny, Bird or Hill averaged more assists than Pippen.. Other guys were comparable to Pippen too - Hornacek averaged 6 assists from 88-93', while Detlef Schrempf was a 5-6-assist guy like Pippen but often played 3rd or 4th option (like Pippen did outside the Bulls).. Reggie Theus was 6'7" guy that averaged 10 assists.. Alvin Robertson, Danny Ainge and Chris Mullin were also 5-6 assist guys..

Accordingly, many guards and forwards were getting 5+ assists, which makes the point pretty clear at this point - MJ simply had less passing and scoring help than his peers, which makes sense considering most people think he's goat.

Btw, every above-average sidekick outscores the opposing sidekick the majority of series, but only the best sidekicks actually dominate their matchup, which Pippen never did... So aside from his decade-worst passing, efficiency, clutch and spacing among 90's sidekicks, the biggest problem with Pippen was his lowest PEAK CAPABILITY among 90's sidekicks.. Pippen wasn't a threat to take over like every other sidekick and therefore wasn't on the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif), so MJ had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load)..

Heck, the worst sidekick that Jordan ever faced in the Finals was Terry Porter, who played better than Damian Lillard ever played in the 92' WCF, or the 92 and 90' Finals runs... So every 90's sidekick was infact a "1b" that could achieve elite stats and dominate, except Pippen.. Pippen is the only sidekick that was a transition player/hustler that couldn't achieve elite stats or dominate his matchup, so Mj was forced to defeat maximum defensive attention.

Didn't read. Just name the Small forwards and Shooting guards that out-assisted Pippen in the 90s. Third time I've asked, and I know the answer leads you to a place you don't want to admit: Pippen's assists were more than fine for his position and role in the offense. Even when he was averaging 5-6 assists at 35 years old outside the Triangle, that was among the league leaders at his position. What you're basically admonishing Scottie for is not scoring 25ppg, which is lead scorer type numbers, or 10 asssists, which the elite PGs averaged. If he actually did all that, MJ would have less of a GOAT argument because your entire premise is built around how much he had to do. Pippen producing more correlates to MJ likely producing less, and Pippen dropping like 25/10/7 on the two 3peats further catapults him up the GOAT list which again, doesn't help the case for MJ. You undermine your own agenda blabbering on about Scottie's production.

BTW the other championship teams of the 90's, Houston, won with a PG averaging less assists than Scottie was dropping in 2000 past his prime. The 99 Spurs won with Avery Johnson averaging what Scottie did in 92...so in essence no team in the 90's required high assist (let's say 8+ for arguments sake) producing players regardless of what offense was being run. In fact, the last time a team won the title with a point guard averaging 8+ assists was Detroit in 1990 and Dallas in 2011. Or you can look at 2020 when Lebron averaged 10 :cheers:

3ba11

11-27-2022, 05:29 PM

Didn't read. Just name the Small forwards and Shooting guards that out-assisted Pippen in the 90s. Third time I've asked, and I know the answer leads you to a place you don't want to admit: Pippen's assists were more than fine for his position and role in the offense. Even when he was averaging 5-6 assists at 35 years old outside the Triangle, that was among the league leaders at his position. What you're basically admonishing Scottie for is not scoring 25ppg, which is lead scorer type numbers, or 10 asssists, which the elite PGs averaged. If he actually did all that, MJ would have less of a GOAT argument because your entire premise is built around how much he had to do. Pippen producing more correlates to MJ likely producing less, and Pippen dropping like 25/10/7 on the two 3peats further catapults him up the GOAT list which again, doesn't help the case for MJ. You undermine your own agenda blabbering on about Scottie's production.

BTW the other championship teams of the 90's, Houston, won with a PG averaging less assists than Scottie was dropping in 2000 past his prime. The 99 Spurs won with Avery Johnson averaging what Scottie did in 92...so in essence no team in the 90's required high assist (let's say 8+ for arguments sake) producing players regardless of what offense was being run. In fact, the last time a team won the title with a point guard averaging 8+ assists was Detroit in 1990. Or you can look at 2020 when Lebron averaged 10 :cheers:

Malone, Barkley, and Kemp got 10+ assists from their PG - Jordan didn't have passing help like that - he was forced to settle for 5-6 from his SF which he had to match himself.

So Jordan had less passing and scoring help than his peers.

And Pippen's assist levels were fine compared to other wings, but Jordan was essentially good enough to win without the high-assist point guard that everyone else enjoyed - so he literally DIDN'T need the playmaking help that you guys claim he did.. You guys created this narrative about him needing playmaking help despite everyone else actually getting much more playmaking help - so you have it backwards - Jordan wasn't needy and should be praised for winning with less passing and scoring help than everyone else had.

Btw, notice how Pippen's assist level was only 4.6 a couple years outside the triangle despite having no scoring role and more scoring options to pass to than he ever had on the Bulls - he was a garbage passer given his low scoring role and lack of defensive attention.. a total system player that was worse than jeff green outside the system.. Houston was completely shocked and dumbfounded at how much they hated the 6-time champion

Phoenix

11-27-2022, 05:49 PM

Malone, Barkley, and Kemp got 10+ assists from their PG - Jordan didn't have passing help like that - he was forced to settle for 5-6 from his SF which he had to match himself.

So Jordan had less passing and scoring help than his peers.

And I get your point that Pippen's assist levels compared well to other wings, but Jordan was essentially good enough to win without a point guard, so he literally DIDN'T need the playmaking help that you guys claim he did.. You guys created this narrative about him needing playmaking help despite everyone else actually getting much more playmaking help - so you have it backwards - Jordan should be praised for winning with less passing and scoring help than everyone else had.

Btw, notice how Pippen's assist level was only 4.6 a couple years outside the triangle despite having no scoring role and more scoring options to pass to than he ever had on the Bulls - he was a garbage passer given his low scoring role and lack of defensive attention.. a total system player that was worse than jeff green outside the system.. Houston was dumbfounded at how much they hated the 6-time champion

What those players got from their PGs is irrelevant because it didn't lead to a championship whether or not Jordan was the final opponent, so using that as evidence of some handicap that MJ was working with is a faulty argument. The historical record shows that high assist producing players haven't led championship winning teams since the days of Magic and Isiah, except in outlier cases like the 2011 Mavs(Kidd), 2019 Raptors( Lowry) and 2020 Lakers( Lebron). So Scottie 'only' averaging 5-6 assists didn't make MJ winning championships harder. What you are arguing as a unique accomplishment for Jordan ( winning without a high assist teammate) has in fact been the standard for three decades. That's not an opinion, that is the historical record. Look it up, Rockets, Spurs, Lakers, Pistons, Heat, Celtics, Warriors, Bucks. None of those championship teams had a player averaging over 7 assists, high assist producing players are simply not a prerequisite for championship success and MJ winning titles with a 'low assist teammate' simply isn't a noteworthy achievement.

Round Mound

11-27-2022, 06:01 PM

So what you're really asking is 'Is Scottie Pippen a worse passer than a cherry-picked selection of the best 90's point guards that I'll call 'sidekicks' to suit the agenda'? What's your next mind-bending poll? 'Is Scottie Pippen the worst rebounder amongst Barkley, Rodman, and Willis?'

That disingenious shit above is why you were sent to your room without supper the last few nights. Stockton, Payton, Hardaway, KJ etc were the best PGs in the league, and in a few cases were the best player on their team (KJ right before Barkley, Payton and Kemp could be considered 1 and 1a interchangeably). So is Scottie Pippen a worse passer than John Stockton, arguably a top 5 all-time passer and the far and away leader in assists? No shit. Why don't you be original and ask where does Scottie Pippen's passing ability rank amongst 90's small forwards. That at least would be some new material.

This

Phoenix

11-27-2022, 06:33 PM

Scottie Pippen from 91-93 seasons averaged 6.5 apg with a season high of 7.0 in 1992, and 5.8 apg from 96 to 98 seasons with a season high of 5.9 in 1996. Here are the leading season assist numbers for every championship team after 1990, the start of the Bulls reign (higher averages that Scottie bolded):

1991 Bulls- S.Pippen 6.2
1992 Bulls- S. Pippen 7.0
1993 Bulls- S. Pippen 6.3
1994 Rockets- V. Maxwell 5.1
1995 Rockets- K.Smith 4.0
1996 Bulls- S. Pippen 5.9
1997 Bulls- S. Pippen 5.7
1998 Bulls- S. Pippen 5.8
1999 Spurs- A. Johnson 7.4
2000 Lakers- K.Bryant 4.9
2001 Lakers- K. Bryant 5.0
2002 Lakers - K. Bryant 5.5
2003 Spurs - T. Parker 5.3
2004 Pistons- C. Billips 5.7
2005 Spurs- T. Parker 6.1
2006 Heat- D.Wade- 6.7
2007 Spurs- T.Parker 5.5
2008 Lakers- R.Rondo 5.1
2009 Lakers- K.Bryant 4.9
2010 Lakers- K. Bryant 5.0
2011 Mavs- J. Kidd 8.2
2012 Heat- L. James 6.2
2013 Heat- L. James 7.3
2014 Spurs - T. Parker 5.7
2015 Warriors- S. Curry 7.7
2016 Cavs- L. James 6.8
2017 Warriors- S. Curry 6.6
2018 Warriors- D.Green 7.3
2019 Raptors- K.Lowry 8.7
2020 Lakers- L. James 10.2
2021 Bucks - J. Holiday 6.1
2022 Warriors - S.Curry 6.3

So out of 32 seasons above, Scottie's season high of 7.0 assists in 1992 is 8th. Only 3 players on that list averaged more than 8 assists. So in contrast to the idea that 1)it was a mini-miracle that MJ won rings with a 'low assist producing' teammate and 2) league leading assist numbers are crucial to winning a championship, the historical record shows that 1) Scottie's assist numbers were either on par or higher than most of the other assist leaders on every non-Bulls championship team over the past three decades and 2) league leading assist numbers on championship teams like Lebron in 2020 are exceptions and therefore Scottie not averaging those kinds of assist numbers, in an offense not designed to by its nature, was not a handicap that MJ had to face but infact the standard since 1990.

Someone kindly sticky this post for the next time you hear any argument that Scottie's assist numbers on the Bulls title teams were subpar.

AirBonner

11-27-2022, 06:39 PM

Scottie Pippen from 91-93 seasons averaged 6.5 apg with a season high of 7.0 in 1992, and 5.8 apg from 96 to 98 seasons with a season high of 5.9 in 1996. Here are the leading season assist numbers for every championship team after 1990, the start of the Bulls reign (higher averages that Scottie bolded):

1994 Rockets- V. Maxwell 5.1
1995 Rockets- K.Smith 4.0
1999 Spurs- A. Johnson 7.4
2000 Lakers- K.Bryant 4.9
2001 Lakers- K. Bryant 5.0
2002 Lakers - K. Bryant 5.5
2003 Spurs - T. Parker 5.3
2004 Pistons- C. Billips 5.7
2005 Spurs- T. Parker 6.1
2006 Heat- D.Wade- 6.7
2007 Spurs- T.Parker 5.5
2008 Lakers- R.Rondo 5.1
2009 Lakers- K.Bryant 4.9
2010 Lakers- K. Bryant 5.0
2011 Mavs- J. Kidd 8.2
2012 Heat- L. James 6.2
2013 Heat- L. James 7.3
2014 Spurs - T. Parker 5.7
2015 Warriors- S. Curry 7.7
2016 Cavs- L. James 6.8
2017 Warriors- S. Curry 6.6
2018 Warriors- D.Green 7.3
2019 Raptors- K.Lowry 8.7
2020 Lakers- L. James 10.2
2021 Bucks - J. Holiday 6.1
2022 Warriors - S.Curry 6.3

So out of 26 players above, Scottie's season high of 7.0 assists in 1992 is higher than all but 7 of them. His 3 year average from 91-93 of 6.5 was higher than all but 10 players, and his 5.8 3 year average average from 96-98 is higher than 14 out of them. Only 3 players on that list averaged more than 8 assists. So in contrast to the idea that it was a mini-miracle that MJ won rings with a 'low assist producing' teammate, the historical record shows that Scottie's assist numbers were either on par or higher than most of the other assist leaders on every non-Bulls championship team over the past three decades.

Someone kindly sticky this post for the next time you hear any argument that Scottie's assist numbers on the Bulls title teams were subpar.

Shut it down.

Axe

11-27-2022, 07:34 PM

3ball getting embarrassed more with each passing day.

Baller789

11-27-2022, 08:49 PM

Individual assist stats in the triangle offense means as much as lipstick does to Vin Diesel.

ShawkFactory

11-27-2022, 09:37 PM

Individual assist stats in the triangle offense means as much as lipstick does to Vin Diesel.

And so, apparently, does individual assist "help" from a superstar sidekick.

3ba11

11-28-2022, 02:02 PM

And so, apparently, does individual assist "help" from a superstar sidekick.

Exactly - high-assist guys (ball-dominators) don't win or need super-teams - you guys finally learn for yourselves what I've been saying for 10 years.

Next time just listen to me the first time and you won't have to waste a decade being dumb

So Pippen's assist levels mattered little and Jordan led the assists anyway for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, including half the title runs (91', 93', 97')

ShawkFactory

11-28-2022, 02:08 PM

3ba11

11-28-2022, 02:15 PM

Sure they matter. They show that he was an excellent and well-rounded basketball player.

Which he was.

The historical record shows that among notable 90's sidekicks, Pippen had the worst passing and scoring (efficiency, spacing, clutch, peak scoring ability, aka no factor on scouting report)

Since Jordan won with less passing and scoring help than his peers had, he should be praised for winning with less instead of lied about (saying he "needed" Pippen's decade-worst passing & scoring among 90's sidekicks, which obviously makes no sense)

Phoenix

11-28-2022, 03:45 PM

Exactly - high-assist guys (ball-dominators) don't win or need super-teams - you guys finally learn for yourselves what I've been saying for 10 years.

Next time just listen to me the first time and you won't have to waste a decade being dumb

So Pippen's assist levels mattered little and Jordan led the assists anyway for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen, including half the title runs (91', 93', 97')
You're contradicting yourself and full of shit. You were admonishing Scottie earlier for averaging less assists than guys like Stockton, Tim Hardaway, Gary Payton, all high assist guys in their primes. While arguing on the other hand that high assist guys don't win or need stacked teams. So taking that logic to its obvious conclusion, Scottie averaging Stockton level assists had a lower chance of championship success than the 5-7 assists he actually did average which as I already proved above, is on par or higher than most championship team assist leaders since 1990. So tell us again why Scottie averaging 6 assists was a problem when it was the standard for just about every notable championship winner of the past three decades. You don't give Tim Duncan props for winning 5 rings with Tony Parker averaging 5-6 assists, nor do you give Parker shit for doing so.

At this point, you're laying in the grass saying it's blue while looking up at the sky calling it green.

Phoenix

11-28-2022, 03:48 PM

The historical record shows that among notable 90's sidekicks, Pippen had the worst passing and scoring (efficiency, spacing, clutch, peak scoring ability, aka no factor on scouting report)

Since Jordan won with less passing and scoring help than his peers had, he should be praised for winning with less instead of lied about (saying he "needed" Pippen's decade-worst passing & scoring among 90's sidekicks, which obviously makes no sense)

The historical record shows that Scottie's assist numbers were on par or better than the majority of championship team assists leaders. The 'sidekicks' he was averaging less assists than were all high assist guys who, by your own word, don't win or need stacked teams. So how does Scottie averaging assists on par with 'high assist guys who need stacked teams' help the Bulls? You're arguing two points in direct contradiction to each other.

1991 Bulls- S.Pippen 6.2
1992 Bulls- S. Pippen 7.0
1993 Bulls- S. Pippen 6.3
1994 Rockets- V. Maxwell 5.1
1995 Rockets- K.Smith 4.0
1996 Bulls- S. Pippen 5.9
1997 Bulls- S. Pippen 5.7
1998 Bulls- S. Pippen 5.8
1999 Spurs- A. Johnson 7.4
2000 Lakers- K.Bryant 4.9
2001 Lakers- K. Bryant 5.0
2002 Lakers - K. Bryant 5.5
2003 Spurs - T. Parker 5.3
2004 Pistons- C. Billips 5.7
2005 Spurs- T. Parker 6.1
2006 Heat- D.Wade- 6.7
2007 Spurs- T.Parker 5.5
2008 Lakers- R.Rondo 5.1
2009 Lakers- K.Bryant 4.9
2010 Lakers- K. Bryant 5.0
2011 Mavs- J. Kidd 8.2
2012 Heat- L. James 6.2
2013 Heat- L. James 7.3
2014 Spurs - T. Parker 5.7
2015 Warriors- S. Curry 7.7
2016 Cavs- L. James 6.8
2017 Warriors- S. Curry 6.6
2018 Warriors- D.Green 7.3
2019 Raptors- K.Lowry 8.7
2020 Lakers- L. James 10.2
2021 Bucks - J. Holiday 6.1
2022 Warriors - S.Curry 6.3

This is the only thing needed to call bullshit on your claim that Scottie's assist numbers were below par.

3ba11

11-28-2022, 04:11 PM

You're contradicting yourself and full of shit. You were admonishing Scottie earlier for averaging less assists than guys like Stockton, Tim Hardaway, Gary Payton, all high assist guys in their primes. While arguing on the other hand that high assist guys don't win or need stacked teams. So taking that logic to its obvious conclusion, Scottie averaging Stockton level assists had a lower chance of championship success than the 5-7 assists he actually did average which as I already proved above, is on par or higher than most championship team assist leaders since 1990. So tell us again why Scottie averaging 6 assists was a problem when it was the standard for just about every notable championship winner of the past three decades. You don't give Tim Duncan props for winning 5 rings with Tony Parker averaging 5-6 assists, nor do you give Parker shit for doing so.

At this point, you're laying in the grass saying it's blue while looking up at the sky calling it green.

Your memory is failing you here.

For years I was unable to convince you guys that high-assist players (ball-dominators) don't win, so I went along with your logic that they were infact critical and then showed you that Pippen provided less help in this capacity than other sidekicks (the worst ball-dominator/assist guy of the sidekicks).

But now that you guys finally have learned that high-assist players (ball-dominators) don't win, then we know that Pippens' assists don't matter and we can just throw our hands up and are back to the original premise: among notable 90's sidekicks, the statistical record shows that Pippen had the worst passing and scoring (efficiency, spacing, clutch, peak scoring capability, aka not on scouting report, aka system player).

3ba11

11-28-2022, 04:27 PM

Usage measures the amount of time per possession a player uses towards one of three outcomes, a free throw, a turnover, or a field goal.

^^^ I missed this bs

usage rate doesn't measure time

it measures the percentage of possessions that a player closes, aka field goals, FT's, or turnovers

the stat that measures time is "time of possession", which is tracked by the NBA on stats.nba.com (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches?dir=D&sort=TIME_OF_POSS) - it's essentially hold-time - the amount of actual time during a game that a player holds the ball, measured in minutes per game.. It's a point guard stat because it includes dribbling up the floor - until recently, the only non-point guard in the top 25 for hold-time was Lebron.

ShawkFactory

11-28-2022, 04:34 PM

Phoenix

11-28-2022, 05:03 PM

Your memory is failing you here.

For years I was unable to convince you guys that high-assist players (ball-dominators) don't win, so I went along with your logic that they were infact critical and then showed you that Pippen provided less help in this capacity than other sidekicks (the worst ball-dominator/assist guy of the sidekicks).

But now that you guys finally have learned that high-assist players (ball-dominators) don't win, then we know that Pippens' assists don't matter and we can just throw our hands up and are back to the original premise: among notable 90's sidekicks, the statistical record shows that Pippen had the worst passing and scoring (efficiency, spacing, clutch, peak scoring capability, aka not on scouting report, aka system player).

There's nothing wrong with my memory. I don't know who 'you guys' is, but its not referring to me. I've never made the argument that high assist guys were critical to championship success. I've never made ANY argument talking about assists in any context and their effect on winning. I'm only talking about it now because you are. Who are the 'you guys' claiming that high assist guys are critical to championship teams? I need to see the receipts, because from where I sit you're making strawman arguments.

So no, nothing has been learned that I didn't already know or was ever arguing in the first place. You haven't taught anyone anything. Pippen's assists don't matter in the same context as Kobe's, Tony Parker's, Steph and others on the list dropping 5-7 assists who won titles. The only one harping on MJs 'low assist producing' teammates is you. Championship teams with guys averaging 5-7 assists is a 30 year standard. So your contention that 'Jordan won with less passing help than his peers' makes no sense. What peers? The only other player who won titles between 1991 and 1998 is Hakeem with Kenny Smith avergaing 4-5 assists. So which 'peers' are you referring to?

Phoenix

11-28-2022, 05:04 PM

Phoenix

11-28-2022, 05:11 PM

^^^ I missed this bs

usage rate doesn't measure time

it measures the percentage of possessions that a player closes, aka field goals, FT's, or turnovers

the stat that measures time is "time of possession", which is tracked by the NBA on stats.nba.com (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches?dir=D&sort=TIME_OF_POSS) - it's essentially hold-time - the amount of actual time during a game that a player holds the ball, measured in minutes per game.. It's a point guard stat because it includes dribbling up the floor - until recently, the only non-point guard in the top 25 for hold-time was Lebron.

That being said, I made the point in reference to MJ's averaging 11 assists in the 91 finals. Usage or time or possession, I don't really care, but you're the one who said 'high assist guys don't win or need stacked teams' as its suboptimal. Since the 91 Bulls won with MJ averaging 11 assists, using your own argument does that mean the Bulls were stacked?

3ba11

11-28-2022, 05:25 PM

That being said, I made the point in reference to MJ's averaging 11 assists in the 91 finals. Usage or time or possession, I don't really care, but you're the one who said 'high assist guys don't win or need stacked teams' as its suboptimal. Since the 91 Bulls won in 91 with MJ averaging 11 assists, using your own argument does that mean the Bulls were stacked?

there's a massive difference between usage and time of possession, so you should care - it's like comparing a balance sheet to an income statement

* usage = shot attempts + FT's + turnovers as a percentage of total possessions

* time of possession = the degree of Luka-style ball-dominance, aka hold-time

The remarkable thing about Jordan closing the most possessions (usage) is that he did so with low hold-time and the best efficiency on those possessions (ortg) of anyone that he's compared to - Jordan's ortg is 118, while other wings are at 112-116.. This was mostly due to his abnormally low turnovers for his role and all-time jumpshooting efficiency (always shot threes well at 1.5 attempts or higher)

btw, 91' Jordan averaged 6-7 assists all year but decided to get 11 in the Finals because he wanted to match Magic - he repeated this in 92', when he shot threes to prove he was a far better shooter than Drexler (who people thought could shoot threes better.. jordan shot 5 attempts at 43% in those Finals).. TLDR: Jordan could do whatever he wanted on the basketball court.

Phoenix

11-28-2022, 05:32 PM

91' Jordan averaged 6-7 assists all year but decided to get 11 in the Finals because he wanted to match Magic - he repeated this in 92', when he shot threes to prove he was a far better shooter than Drexler (who people thought could shoot threes better.. jordan shot 5 attempts at 43% in those Finals).. TLDR: Jordan could do whatever he wanted on the basketball court.

So one of two things we can conclude from that

1) You're excusing Jordan from your 'high assist guys don't win or need stacked teams', so a double standard, or...

2) Pippen's assist numbers don't matter like the majority of those who won over the last 30 years and we can go back to the original premise: you're full of shit.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/8ca50ba9c75cee37b7755c531c4bbd2d/tumblr_o7v8oei9el1qgtanjo8_r1_250.gif

3ba11

11-28-2022, 05:36 PM

Then wouldn't that show that Pippen is an excellent playmaker/decision-maker given the relatively high assist numbers without being one of those losing ball-dominators you speak of?

Pippen's assists outside the triangle ranged between 3.5 and 5.9, despite no scoring responsibility and more scoring options than ever before in Houston and Portland.

So he wasn't an elite passer and the triangle just propped up his scoring and passing.. he's a system player and worse than Jeff Green outside the system that he grew up in.

ShawkFactory

11-28-2022, 05:37 PM

Pippen's assists outside the triangle ranged between 3.5 and 5.9, despite no scoring responsibility and more scoring options than ever before in Houston and Portland.

So he wasn't a good passer and the triangle just propped up his scoring and passing.. that's what i've been saying the whole time - he's a system player and worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle.

Okay.

3ba11

11-28-2022, 05:46 PM

2) Pippen's assist numbers don't matter like the majority of those who won over the last 30 years

Once again you come around to my way of thinking... :applause:... scoring is what matters and individual assists aren't that important as long as the guy can get 5 per game if needed..

Since assists don't matter, let's focus on the other drivers of winning like efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg), clutch (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/cKS3B2.gif), spacing, and degree of system player (https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-04-2022/B-6qB7.gif), aka peak scoring capability, aka scouting report viability (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif))

Phoenix

11-28-2022, 05:55 PM

Once again you come around to my way of thinking... :applause:... scoring is what matters and individual assists aren't that important as long as the guy can get 5 per game if needed..

Since assists don't matter, let's focus on the other drivers of winning like efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg), clutch (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/cKS3B2.gif), spacing, and degree of system player (https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-04-2022/B-6qB7.gif), aka peak scoring capability, aka scouting report viability (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif))

I've never argued that assists were ultra important, so there's nothing to come around to. So what are you now trying to say? That your post after post harping on about his assist numbers were never actually about him? 1000 anti-Pippen threads was just an act?

:kobe: