I just watched the Grinch from 50 years ago. We have made no progress.

[Kblaze8855]

https://youtu.be/Z_SFt_WNHfU


They spend hundreds of millions of dollars remaking classics with computers and make a watered down for runtime, worse looking, worse sounding, fraudulent piece of shit.

Really reminded me of basketball. 30-40 years of “advances”, rule changes to supposedly make me enjoy it more, higher definition tvs 3 times the size, and games aren’t one speck more engaging or enjoyable.

You only feel they must because you weren’t around to see the previous product. I’m not talking about who is better or worse. I don’t care about that.

The watching experience…the product in front of us…is worse.

All the euro steps, 35 foot threes, and 140-132 scores are just a CGI Grinch. Glossy but missing the soul. The hard to define difference that makes a classic a classic.

You can steal the songs and animate it with computers but you get a worse product. These games are simply less compelling than these were:



https://youtu.be/XKOkNZ4Yzto


Or these



https://youtu.be/IFr1lfLeub0



It’s hard to explain why just like it’s hard to explain a 25 minute hand animated 50 year old cartoon being so much better than $100 million modern productions but that doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

Im not saying there are no classic modern games but whatever it is…environment….physicality….rivalries being destroyed by player movement…I don’t know. The games were simply more interesting to watch. The players seemed more invested.

I feel like I’m watching modern animation looking for a needle in the haystack.

Every looney tunes was good. Even the racist ones. 70 years ago they are still near a 100% success rate watching them with modern eyes.

Things really don’t automatically get better with “advances”.

The product they show is inferior these days. I don’t care how old man yells at cloud it sounds. It is.

And cartoons are worse.

Some nostalgia is just true. You know the roadrunner and coyote is better than whatever kids cartoon is out now.

Even if you feel old to admit it.

[GimmeThat]

just because 7 colors were available, it doesn't mean using all 7 of it makes the best painting, because that's what it's like to make a point.

[Full Court]

Agree. Humanity overall has regressed in the last 50 years, technological advances notwithstanding.

[Kblaze8855]

This bullshit cost 100 million to make and market:


https://youtu.be/8aYDBzIgZ3k


Even adjusted for inflation the original cost 2 million and everyone here knows the songs 55 years later.

[GimmeThat]

Even adjusted for inflation the original cost 2 million and everyone here knows the songs 55 years later.

the inflation adjusted here is based on material used. it does not account for reach. or you can say the inflation for the distribution channel wasn't included.

[SouBeachTalents]

Agree. Humanity overall has regressed in the last 50 years, technological advances notwithstanding.
60 years ago blacks were literally not allowed to go into certain establishments and were arrested for sitting in the front of the bus. Twenty years before that the Japanese were sent to internment camps. The world was engaged in two world wars within a 20 year span, and not that long before that slavery was considered a normal part of life.

This is why I find comments like these to be so laughably ignorant and naïve. Of course the world will always have problems, and people will always have flaws, but you compare where we are now to where we were even 50-60 years ago, it's honestly underappreciated how much progress we've made as a society over that timeframe. I will gladly take the problems of today over the prejudice and injustice that existed and was widely accepted not that long ago.

[RRR3]

60 years ago blacks were literally not allowed to go into certain establishments and were arrested for sitting in the front of the bus. Twenty years before that the Japanese were sent to internment camps. The world was engaged in two world wars within a 20 year span, and not that long before that slavery was considered a normal part of life.

This is why I find comments like these to be so laughably ignorant and naïve. Of course the world will always have problems, and people will always have flaws, but you compare where we are now to where we were even 50-60 years ago, it's honestly underappreciated how much progress we've made as a society over that timeframe. I will gladly take the problems of today over the prejudice and injustice that existed and was widely accepted not that long ago.
He's far right, he considers those things to be positive, you're wasting your time.

[RRR3]

Kblaze you're my guy and all, but 140-132 scores were very common in the 80s. Sounding a little like Abe Simpson here.

[tontoz]

Kblaze you're my guy and all, but 140-132 scores were very common in the 80s. Sounding a little like Abe Simpson here.


He has to make a thread every few months complaining about this era vs previous eras. It takes different forms but the general theme is the same.

At least he is changing it up a little this time, bringing up the Grinch of all things.

[SATAN]

60 years ago blacks were literally not allowed to go into certain establishments and were arrested for sitting in the front of the bus. Twenty years before that the Japanese were sent to internment camps. The world was engaged in two world wars within a 20 year span, and not that long before that slavery was considered a normal part of life.

This is why I find comments like these to be so laughably ignorant and naïve. Of course the world will always have problems, and people will always have flaws, but you compare where we are now to where we were even 50-60 years ago, it's honestly underappreciated how much progress we've made as a society over that timeframe. I will gladly take the problems of today over the prejudice and injustice that existed and was widely accepted not that long ago.

lol Failure Cvnt is the ultimate stereotypical, white privileged, alt right incel, Breitbart reading, self awareness lacking Trumptard that people laugh and shake their heads at in disbelief. He's going to probably reply to this even though he knows I only see the retarded shit he says when someone quotes him. His low IQ, pettiness and poor character traits are bottomless. :facepalm

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze you're my guy and all, but 140-132 scores were very common in the 80s. Sounding a little like Abe Simpson here.

I didn’t say the games aren’t entertaining because of the scores I said the changes made that they admit were to make such things more likely did not increase entertainment value.

I am talking about the experience of watching the games. I specifically said I’m not talking about who is better. The games are played so differently it’s hard to evaluate so that isn’t the issue.

[Kblaze8855]

He has to make a thread every few months complaining about this era vs previous eras. It takes different forms but the general theme is the same.

At least he is changing it up a little this time, bringing up the Grinch of all things.

It’s not this era vs previous eras. Plenty of previous eras were better than other previous eras. This era is better than some previous eras. Obviously the nba tv product of now vs 1966 is better. The cartoons are not.

Today might also be better than early 2000s before the talent caught up with the rapid expansion of the previous 10-15 years and the tv productions were full of stupid custom rap songs about “Tmac to tha rack” and other embarrassing nonsense.

With the exception of soft roughing penalties the nfl product is probably better to watch than it’s been. Baseball to me is equally boring with all the changes.

This isn’t across sports. I’m talking the basketball watching experience and cartoons. It isn’t nostalgia if I wasn’t even there. I don’t remember seeing the looney toons episodes premier but I’m confident Paw Patrol won’t be watched in 70 years even by the adults of that day. But 140 year old Bugs and Daffy will still be on tv and still be funny.

The new ones they make with much improved computer animation, near identical voices, similar concepts and music are truly…not as funny. Why? Couldn’t say. But I play them. Im often around kids and not knowing their shows by name I will often play boomerang or whatever Cartoon Network has on. I see the old. I see the new.

The old ones are better. My soon to be 6 year old cousin dies laughing at old episodes on youtube. I can’t pinpoint the difference. Maybe less distracting dialogue? They make them like a sitcom episode now and it isn’t wall to wall antics so maybe that’s it?

I can’t say for sure but I can say despite all production advantages these shows are worse to watch.

So is the digital grinch.

So is the nba.

We can argue why but it’s just what my eyes see.

[Full Court]

He's far right, he considers those things to be positive, you're wasting your time.


lol Failure Cvnt is the ultimate stereotypical, white privileged, alt right incel, Breitbart reading, self awareness lacking Trumptard that people laugh and shake their heads at in disbelief. He's going to probably reply to this even though he knows I only see the retarded shit he says when someone quotes him. His low IQ, pettiness and poor character traits are bottomless. :facepalm


It’s not this era vs previous eras. Plenty of previous eras were better than other previous eras. This era is better than some previous eras. Obviously the nba tv product of now vs 1966 is better. The cartoons are not.

Today might also be better than early 2000s before the talent caught up with the rapid expansion of the previous 10-15 years and the tv productions were full of stupid custom rap songs about “Tmac to tha rack” and other embarrassing nonsense.

With the exception of soft roughing penalties the nfl product is probably better to watch than it’s been. Baseball to me is equally boring with all the changes.

This isn’t across sports. I’m talking the basketball watching experience and cartoons. It isn’t nostalgia if I wasn’t even there. I don’t remember seeing the looney toons episodes premier but I’m confident Paw Patrol won’t be watched in 70 years even by the adults of that day. But 140 year old Bugs and Daffy will still be on tv and still be funny.

The new ones they make with much improved computer animation, near identical voices, similar concepts and music are truly…not as funny. Why? Couldn’t say. But I play them. Im often around kids and not knowing their shows by name I will often play boomerang or whatever Cartoon Network has on. I see the old. I see the new.

The old ones are better. My soon to be 6 year old cousin dies laughing at old episodes on youtube. I can’t pinpoint the difference. Maybe less distracting dialogue? They make them like a sitcom episode now and it isn’t wall to wall antics so maybe that’s it?

I can’t say for sure but I can say despite all production advantages these shows are worse to watch.

So is the digital grinch.

So is the nba.

We can argue why but it’s just what my eyes see.

Wow, two complete and utter idiots. These two represent the failure of the education system. Perfect examples of the regression of humanity.

[Full Court]

60 years ago blacks were literally not allowed to go into certain establishments and were arrested for sitting in the front of the bus. Twenty years before that the Japanese were sent to internment camps. The world was engaged in two world wars within a 20 year span, and not that long before that slavery was considered a normal part of life.

This is why I find comments like these to be so laughably ignorant and naïve. Of course the world will always have problems, and people will always have flaws, but you compare where we are now to where we were even 50-60 years ago, it's honestly underappreciated how much progress we've made as a society over that timeframe. I will gladly take the problems of today over the prejudice and injustice that existed and was widely accepted not that long ago.

You're talking about some isolated positive changes, and that's a myopic way to look at things.

Sure, civil rights have improved in the US, but there are numerous countries in the world where ethnic cleansing is going on today.

Yes, we sent Japanese to internment camps 80 years ago. And this very day, Russia is leveling entire cities, raping and slaughtering indiscriminately. Look at what China is doing to the Uighurs. And that's just two examples. There are countless others. Anyone who says humanity as a whole has made progress has a very myopic veiw of the world.

[Wardell Curry]

Lots of things going on here.

Nostalgia.

Comparing originals to replications.

As for basketball, the 80s/90s were the peak combination of physical play and skills. Look at those videos, the players looked like men. Today they look like boys into their 30s. Today's players are more skilled at most things, but they're a lot softer because of society and lesser players overall as a result and so is the product.

NBC knew how to present stories and drum up hype. ABC's presentation is awful. The NBA on TNT has been the largest improvement for the league over the last 30 years. You could also make an argument for widescreen format vs standard offering a worse experience in terms of engagement despite being able to see more at a much higher resolution. And not to be understated... perhaps the biggest notable difference, the audio experience back then was substantially better because today's tech does their best to suppress the crowd. Today's announcers are so clear that they even sometimes come to the absolute forefront of the experience.

Bring back hand checking, allow defensive paint camping, and experiment with shot type values. Reduce 3s to 2.5, make dunks worth 3. I don't know. Play around with it.

[Kblaze8855]

Giving it some thought….

Its probably a combo of over-saturation, load management, player movement destroying team rivalries, the media catering to casual fans more, and last…everyone essentially playing the same style.

Id say a Pacers/Kings game might be equally entertaining/boring now or in 1985. But in 1985 id virtually never see a Pacers/Kings game. The national tv games were almost all major matchups and I wasn’t watching league pass to pass the time like I do now. I’ll watch any nba. I’m subjected to more Magic/Knicks games than is probably healthy.

It also doesn’t help that players miss so many games you can’t even assume you’ll get a good matchup even if it is on paper. First thing I do when I’m considering watching a Laker, Pelicans, Warriors, 76ers, Clippers, Nets or almost any game with stars…is check to see who is sitting. You go in expecting Lebron and AD vs Zion/BI or George/Leonard vs Harden and Embiid and you almost NEVER get it. You’re letdown right out the gate.

If the Bulls and Celtics were playing you know that unless something major happened….it was Bird vs Jordan.

I was gonna watch a Warrior game recently and they had sat everyone you would go to a warriors game to see.

I never once saw a Laker game without Magic, Kareem, Worthy, and Scott. Am I saying it never happened? No. I can’t say for sure. I can say I never saw it happen. I’ve never see Bird, Mchale, and Parish just decide not to play at the same time. I never saw Jordan and Pippen both sit out a game just because. Maybe it happened but if so it didn’t happen much. They both played the last game of the season when they had 69 wins. I’ve turned on nba games lately to find 3 all stars sitting plenty of times.

And even if everyone plays they don’t play with the same animosity. Celtics and Lakers did not like each other and desperately wanted to win every matchup. Celtics and 76ers fought more than Ali/Frazier and their fans did too. It was a passionate desire to win. Magic and Isiah loved each other but their teams played like they hated each other. Same for Celtics and Pistons. Bulls/Knicks later in the 90/. Nobody in the league now hates another team like the Knicks and Heat hated each other then. Or the Suns and Rockets. Or Pacers and Knicks.

Teams that keep the same cast for a long time or go through the physical battles that make you play like it’s a true rivalry….there’s just a difference from everyone growing up playing together in AAU, teaming up, and playing friendly games.

Kevin Durant is absolutely not going to just clothesline James Harden. It’s entirely possible Barkley, Bird, Ewing, Hakeem, Karl Malone, Moses, Doc and any of 100 role players might get sick of your shit and punch you. No Patrick Beverly shove. Isiah Thomas or Danny Ainge will jump on his back and choke a center. It happened and I can show you it happening.

whether or not you think that’s an honorable way to play the game can we all just admit one thing?

If Tatum and Harden got into 2 separate brawls like Doc/Bird, Marcus Smart got into a fight with a Philly super fan in a separate incident like Cedric Maxwell did, both cores stayed together for 4-6 years, the coaches were legendary players from each franchise(think Rondo and…I don’t know who to call Cunningham. Iverson?), and you could be sure when they played all 6 stars would play if at all possible even if it’s a back to back?


It really sounds like nostalgia for me to say that a more compelling game than whatever happens next time Philly plays Boston today?

The game might turn out to be a classic or a blowout, but we both know if you have to choose which scenario plays out strictly for player investment, and your enjoyment/anticipation, you would rather have the old scenario over today’s.

It’s not about which team would win if they could play across time. If you’re sitting down as a fan? You know which is more compelling.

A lot of things factor in but bottom line?

The games coming on in 1988 not only is more likely to feature a real rivalry and it’s more likely to feature the stars you’re there to see.

On the other hand….CBS isn’t gonna subject me to Clippers/Nets in 1988 but I can and will watch a bullshit game now.

The only bad games Id see back then(unless I was at a cousins house where they had the dish) all had Michael Jordan in them because I was in Chicago.

That could be a factor. Greater access to bad games.

The most recent game I would have seen on this date 30 years ago was Jordan scoring 49 versus Don Nelson‘s Warriors and all the stars played for both teams. Next game? Bulls and Knicks. The Knicks shut the bulls down but that would absolutely have been a game everyone wanted to see.

I’d say for a combo of competitiveness, rarity, and load management there were just less throw away games on TV. Can we all agree on that?

[Wardell Curry]

Greater access to bad games is a part, but so is just greater options to various forms of entertainment overall.

[Xiao Yao You]

It’s not this era vs previous eras. Plenty of previous eras were better than other previous eras. This era is better than some previous eras. Obviously the nba tv product of now vs 1966 is better. The cartoons are not.

Today might also be better than early 2000s before the talent caught up with the rapid expansion of the previous 10-15 years and the tv productions were full of stupid custom rap songs about “Tmac to tha rack” and other embarrassing nonsense.

With the exception of soft roughing penalties the nfl product is probably better to watch than it’s been. Baseball to me is equally boring with all the changes.

This isn’t across sports. I’m talking the basketball watching experience and cartoons. It isn’t nostalgia if I wasn’t even there. I don’t remember seeing the looney toons episodes premier but I’m confident Paw Patrol won’t be watched in 70 years even by the adults of that day. But 140 year old Bugs and Daffy will still be on tv and still be funny.

The new ones they make with much improved computer animation, near identical voices, similar concepts and music are truly…not as funny. Why? Couldn’t say. But I play them. Im often around kids and not knowing their shows by name I will often play boomerang or whatever Cartoon Network has on. I see the old. I see the new.

The old ones are better. My soon to be 6 year old cousin dies laughing at old episodes on youtube. I can’t pinpoint the difference. Maybe less distracting dialogue? They make them like a sitcom episode now and it isn’t wall to wall antics so maybe that’s it?

I can’t say for sure but I can say despite all production advantages these shows are worse to watch.

So is the digital grinch.

So is the nba.

We can argue why but it’s just what my eyes see.

Some of the greatest cartoons have been made the past 30 plus years. They just weren't made for kids

I can attest to the fact that Tom and Jerry worked just as well in China as it did in the states without dubbing and subtitles getting in the way

[Xiao Yao You]

You're talking about some isolated positive changes, and that's a myopic way to look at things.

Sure, civil rights have improved in the US, but there are numerous countries in the world where ethnic cleansing is going on today.

Yes, we sent Japanese to internment camps 80 years ago. And this very day, Russia is leveling entire cities, raping and slaughtering indiscriminately. Look at what China is doing to the Uighurs. And that's just two examples. There are countless others. Anyone who says humanity as a whole has made progress has a very myopic veiw of the world.

Overall things get better. Man is ****ed up. ****ed up things will continue to happen. If you're black, woman, gay, etc. things are certainly better than they were

[Kblaze8855]

Some of the greatest cartoons have been made the past 30 plus years. They just weren't made for kids

I can attest to the fact that Tom and Jerry worked just as well in China as it did in the states without dubbing and subtitles getting in the way

For obvious reasons, I won’t compare South Park, the boondocks, or family guy to Dr. Seuss.


Id say animated sitcoms are a different category. The flint stones for example…to me that’s a tv show that happens to be animated. Same for the Jetsons. Or the Simpsons in its prime.

[GimmeThat]

it's 2 arguments regarding whether or not you believe our attention span and focus is linear:

if you think that it is, regardless, no matter how amazing a performace you just witnessed, you're still interested in other less exciting performance in order to ponder the real world application of what you just witnessed, as well as gauging the reality of it all on your own prediction.

if you believe that it isn't, then it's understandable to use the term nostalgia, because sometime instead of digesting the information, you want to relax and be rewarded by the new information you just produced, not because you seek material gain or gratitude, but you're interested in going to your happy place, a world in which everything is predictable/controllable by you, without interfereing the rest of the world.

either way, it's safe to assume one wouldn't choose to fire all orgrans simultaneously and unaccounted for.

[Phoenix]

I must admit, as far as drama/build-up those 'NBA on NBA' matchups with Bob Costa's voiceover selling the pending game hasn't been equalled. But that's partly because teams genuinely 'hating' each other has been dilluted from the current product.

[Big164]

This bullshit cost 100 million to make and market:


https://youtu.be/8aYDBzIgZ3k


Even adjusted for inflation the original cost 2 million and everyone here knows the songs 55 years later.

Drama series are 1000 times better today than anything in the 20th century. Things like Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones didnt exist. All they had was like Gun Smoke.

[1987_Lakers]

I might be wrong, but I feel cartoons today aren't as popular as they were back in the day, which is why we have seen a drop in quality. There are more way to entertain children today.

[Xiao Yao You]

Drama series are 1000 times better today than anything in the 20th century. Things like Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones didnt exist. All they had was like Gun Smoke.

not great examples of the greatness of drama series today. There was plenty of good stuff in the 20th century

[Phoenix]

I might be wrong, but I feel cartoons today aren't as popular as they were back in the day, which is why we have seen a drop in quality. There are more way to entertain children today.

Not sure where you're from, but I grew up with two channels. Saturday morning cartoons were a staple of growing up, and those cartoons were marketing tools for toys. It could be because I don't have any children so I'm far removed, but both of those things don't seem as much a part of modern children's lives as prior generations. As you said, there are more ways to entertain them.

[Kblaze8855]

Drama series are 1000 times better today than anything in the 20th century. Things like Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones didnt exist. All they had was like Gun Smoke.

Yes I’d say tv is better than it’s ever been. That’s the difference between having three or four networks to work with all of which have their own studios and the same network of producers and directors and being in a world with 150 well-funded networks and streaming services all trying to compete. A bad show 50 years ago will get better ratings than whatever the best show today is because there was nothing else to watch. The nation was split 3 ways plus pbs.

Now there’s somewhere for everyone to go get a chance. Your show might not end up seen but there’s a much better chance it gets made.

[tontoz]

When comparing eras I try not to think in terms of good or bad, they are just different.

When I see young people now dissing past stars it is annoying. Stars of past eras would definitely be stars today. People act like so and so wouldn't be athletic enough to compete today while Luka and Jokic are dominating :facepalm

I would say that average players are definitely better now than they used to be just to due to a deeper talent pool.

Things that bother me today are the touch fouls and the load management, which has an easy solution. If guys want to take games off for load management then they shouldn't get paid for those games. Then we will see just how much they value their rest.

[FKAri]

Yes I’d say tv is better than it’s ever been. That’s the difference between having three or four networks to work with all of which have their own studios and the same network of producers and directors and being in a world with 150 well-funded networks and streaming services all trying to compete. A bad show 50 years ago will get better ratings than whatever the best show today is because there was nothing else to watch. The nation was split 3 ways plus pbs.

Now there’s somewhere for everyone to go get a chance. Your show might not end up seen but there’s a much better chance it gets made.

Secondary effect of this is that tastes have diverged. As tastes diverge the common denominator gets dumber and blander. And therein lies the reason why something like the Grinch which is aiming for a wide appeal, seems worse. Because it is but also it had to be.

[Xiao Yao You]

Yes I’d say tv is better than it’s ever been. That’s the difference between having three or four networks to work with all of which have their own studios and the same network of producers and directors and being in a world with 150 well-funded networks and streaming services all trying to compete. A bad show 50 years ago will get better ratings than whatever the best show today is because there was nothing else to watch. The nation was split 3 ways plus pbs.

Now there’s somewhere for everyone to go get a chance. Your show might not end up seen but there’s a much better chance it gets made.

Might be more good stuff because of quantity but a lot more crap to wade through. Same with music

[Kblaze8855]

I must admit, as far as drama/build-up those 'NBA on NBA' matchups with Bob Costa's voiceover selling the pending game hasn't been equalled. But that's partly because teams genuinely 'hating' each other has been dilluted from the current product.


When I see this:



https://youtu.be/3ENtBa1Qbmk



and then watch this:




https://youtu.be/7FjtyuWTTG4


I say the old product is better. I have people acting like I’m being nostalgic and all I can think of is that Hannibal Burress clip. “Why are you booing me? I’m right!”.

Nobody is saying the players can’t play. I’m saying when I sit down to watch a game all the advancements of technology, changes designed to make it more fun for fans, and the general increase in polish and production value….


I have a worse product to watch. Every nba double header featuring a star simply choosing not to play. Cringy studio shows all trying to be inside the nba and failing. Pick your own reason. I’m confident even the 20 year olds would find the entire experience 30 years ago to be better even if they didn’t understand why teams played the way they did.

Im talking the product not how good anyone is at basketball.

[Phoenix]

When I see this:



https://youtu.be/3ENtBa1Qbmk



and then watch this:




https://youtu.be/7FjtyuWTTG4


I say the old product is better. I have people acting like I’m being nostalgic and all I can think of is that Hannibal Burress clip. “Why are you booing me? I’m right!”.

Nobody is saying the players can’t play. I’m saying when I sit down to watch a game all the advancements of technology, changes designed to make it more fun for fans, and the general increase in polish and production value….


I have a worse product to watch. Every nba double header featuring a star simply choosing not to play. Cringy studio shows all trying to be inside the nba and failing. Pick your own reason. I’m confident even the 20 year olds would find the entire experience 30 years ago to be better even if they didn’t understand why teams played the way they did.

Im talking the product not how good anyone is at basketball.

Yeah, the 'NBA on NBC' presentation gave the game more of an 'event' type feel. And shit, nothing was better than 'triple header' Sundays in the 90s. Yes, 'old man shouting at the clouds' to the kiddies.

[BigShotBob]

The real issue is what Kenny Smith brought up once on Open Court

He said the NBA is like a suburban neighborhood where every house has been built the same way. That's my main issue. Every team plays the same exact way, it's just that one team has better players doing it than others.

Philly will play just like Boston and they'll play just like the Pacers and they'll play just like the Kings who play just like the Rockets who will play just like the Trailblazers and so on and so forth

Pick and roll, drive and kick, swing the ball, three. Drive the ball, foul, or try to draw a foul. No creativity or diversity in offense because teams and coaches are too afraid to try and buck the trend.

That's the real issue. Get rid of defensive 3 seconds and watch how that alone drastically changes the game as we know it

[Phoenix]

The real issue is what Kenny Smith brought up once on Open Court

He said the NBA is like a suburban neighborhood where every house has been built the same way. That's my main issue. Every team plays the same exact way, it's just that one team has better players doing it than others.

Philly will play just like Boston and they'll play just like the Pacers and they'll play just like the Kings who play just like the Rockets who will play just like the Trailblazers and so on and so forth

Pick and roll, drive and kick, swing the ball, three. Drive the ball, foul, or try to draw a foul. No creativity or diversity in offense because teams and coaches are too afraid to try and buck the trend.

That's the real issue. Get rid of defensive 3 seconds and watch how that alone drastically changes the game as we know it

The 3pointer is too much of a cover-up for bad X's and O's. Controlling the glass and limiting your turnovers were 'keys to the game'. Now, if you hit 20 3's and the other team hits 12, you can be out-rebounded by 8, turn the ball over an extra half dozen times and your odds of winning the game are still pretty high.

[BigShotBob]

The 3pointer is too much of a cover-up for bad X's and O's. Controlling the glass and limiting your turnovers were 'keys to the game'. Now, if you hit 20 3's and the other team hits 12, you can be out-rebounded by 8, turn the ball over an extra half dozen times and your odds of winning the game are still pretty high.

Freedom of movement rules are why the 3 point shot became the great equalizer. You can't fight over screens or really get in the air space of shooters so now you have to give them a bit of space which is awful to watch as a product

[Phoenix]

Freedom of movement rules are why the 3 point shot became the great equalizer. You can't fight over screens or really get in the air space of shooters so now you have to give them a bit of space which is awful to watch as a product

As you said earlier, it's lead to alot of 'samey' playing teams. I noticed several years ago when watching morning NBA highlights that every reel was pretty much the same, the only difference being jersey swaps.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Muh nostalgia

Just because they made a garbage remake of The Grunch doesn't mean process hasn't been made.

Using your logic we haven't made progress since 1939 since the Oz movie sucked balls too.

[Kblaze8855]

Muh nostalgia

Just because they made a garbage remake of The Grunch doesn't mean process hasn't been made.

Using your logic we haven't made progress since 1939 since the Oz movie sucked balls too.

If you want to take me pointing out the decline of cartoons and the entertainment of the NBA to mean I think we have made no progress in medical technology, cars, and society in general go right ahead, but I’m not taking that criticism seriously enough to debate you on it as if the title of the topic was meant to be taken literally.

[Full Court]

Overall things get better. Man is ****ed up. ****ed up things will continue to happen. If you're black, woman, gay, etc. things are certainly better than they were

In this country they are. But that's my point. If you take humanity as a whole, there's just as much racism as there ever was. Slavery still exists in parts of the world. Gays are still killed in parts of the world. Technology has advanced, but overall, man is just as barbaric as he was 1000 years ago.

[ArbitraryWater]

You're talking about some isolated positive changes, and that's a myopic way to look at things.

Sure, civil rights have improved in the US, but there are numerous countries in the world where ethnic cleansing is going on today.

Yes, we sent Japanese to internment camps 80 years ago. And this very day, Russia is leveling entire cities, raping and slaughtering indiscriminately. Look at what China is doing to the Uighurs. And that's just two examples. There are countless others. Anyone who says humanity as a whole has made progress has a very myopic veiw of the world.


Well said.

Obviously human rights issues in a vacuum have come farther, step by step.

But that's not hitting the whole picture.

[GimmeThat]

this is more like an intake form at a psychiatric hospital. the correct answer is I can accept growing old and facing death, murdering the younger generation in order to keep me in power isn't meant for me.

[AlternativeAcc.]

If you want to take me pointing out the decline of cartoons and the entertainment of the NBA to mean I think we have made no progress in medical technology, cars, and society in general go right ahead, but I’m not taking that criticism seriously enough to debate you on it as if the title of the topic was meant to be taken literally.
Strange, cause I didn't mention any of those things and certainly didn't imply that you were saying that, as it would be utterly fukking ridiculous.

I said just because a garbage remake was made, doesn't mean TV shows and cartoons have gone backwards based on your biased perspective. And if they have, it's because there's far more ways for kids to be entertained which takes away talent and focus on traditional format cartoons. Even still, it's a narrow argument and doesn't legitimize your overall point of view.

[dankok8]

I agree with the OP. The games back then were just more fun to watch. For me the NBA lost its way about 6-7 years ago. As far as music, movies, cartoons etc. the whole multimedia world I feel like after the 90's it started going downhill. And this isn't my bias or at least I don't feel that it is. It's objectively gotten worse.

[90sgoat]

I completely agree Kblaze, the world has gone to shit and it's mostly because the world is now controlled by like 5 megacorporations and they all run on some kind of lowest common denominator bs that an algorithm thought up.

You disagree?

Ok, let me take 1999 and compare it's cultural outpout to 2019.

Films in 1999:

The Matrix, Fight Club, American Beauty, Eyes Wide Shut

4 movies in one year that were majorly critical of the elites and society. You could literally not find one movie that was as hardcore as these today. They don't get made today!

And these were not even box office hits, except for the Matrix.

You go look at 2019 and all of it is literal shit from Disney and Marvel. There is not a single movie in the top 50 that has any kind of criticism about the elites.

And you know, this is why we have shit in movies, basketball, music etc, because the elites have stopped the world in progressing.

We're not getting better, we've not made any new music genres, no new game genres or innovative games outside Japan, everything is just mid 00s on repeat, again and again and again.

We're living in some kind of cruel Truman show in which Lebron James is expected to still be relevant, even though he hasn't been relevant in 10 years.

There's basically no real basketball left, you get a billion dollar shoe deal based on your obesity (Zion) and then the liars in media just take over. It's not real, it's not genuine, no one cares, except because we're all so bored we still watch it.

It's all pretty much shit.

I will say this, the 90s were already shit compared to the 80s and the 80s were already shit compared to the 70s and the honestly the 60s were probably the peak of being a human at any time in world history.

We tried making the white middle class 60s to be universal with the hippies in 70s and then the corporate america struck back in the 80s, but we were still going strong on that american exceptionalism, but then the Sovjets lost and essentially our overlords no longer needed to show the world a better alternative, so they just stopped trying and instead brought feminism (Spice Girls) and gangster rap (BLM) and all that shit and we haven't improved in 20 years since basically 9/11 2001, which was when the free world ended.

Then the financial crash in 2009 basically sealed the deal and after seeing Occupy Wall Street, they'd never allow us any kind of freedom of expression again and that's why we're literally seeing this lame shit of 140-138 games with transsexually dressing 6'6'' millionaires.

It's ****ing over bros.

[Spurs m8]

You can really tell who enjoys proper sport..and who laps up simpleton garbage

[SATAN]

I completely agree Kblaze, the world has gone to shit and it's mostly because the world is now controlled by like 5 megacorporations and they all run on some kind of lowest common denominator bs that an algorithm thought up.

You disagree?

Ok, let me take 1999 and compare it's cultural outpout to 2019.

Films in 1999:

The Matrix, Fight Club, American Beauty, Eyes Wide Shut

4 movies in one year that were majorly critical of the elites and society. You could literally not find one movie that was as hardcore as these today. They don't get made today!

And these were not even box office hits, except for the Matrix.

You go look at 2019 and all of it is literal shit from Disney and Marvel. There is not a single movie in the top 50 that has any kind of criticism about the elites.

And you know, this is why we have shit in movies, basketball, music etc, because the elites have stopped the world in progressing.

We're not getting better, we've not made any new music genres, no new game genres or innovative games outside Japan, everything is just mid 00s on repeat, again and again and again.

We're living in some kind of cruel Truman show in which Lebron James is expected to still be relevant, even though he hasn't been relevant in 10 years.

There's basically no real basketball left, you get a billion dollar shoe deal based on your obesity (Zion) and then the liars in media just take over. It's not real, it's not genuine, no one cares, except because we're all so bored we still watch it.

It's all pretty much shit.

I will say this, the 90s were already shit compared to the 80s and the 80s were already shit compared to the 70s and the honestly the 60s were probably the peak of being a human at any time in world history.

We tried making the white middle class 60s to be universal with the hippies in 70s and then the corporate america struck back in the 80s, but we were still going strong on that american exceptionalism, but then the Sovjets lost and essentially our overlords no longer needed to show the world a better alternative, so they just stopped trying and instead brought feminism (Spice Girls) and gangster rap (BLM) and all that shit and we haven't improved in 20 years since basically 9/11 2001, which was when the free world ended.

Then the financial crash in 2009 basically sealed the deal and after seeing Occupy Wall Street, they'd never allow us any kind of freedom of expression again and that's why we're literally seeing this lame shit of 140-138 games with transsexually dressing 6'6'' millionaires.

It's ****ing over bros.

https://c.tenor.com/fWg9gm1CrdYAAAAM/lebron-james-crying.gif

He literally wrote all this to take a shot at LeBron James. :facepalm

Some of the points are valid for sure but the lengths these sociopaths go to discredit LeBron is abnormal to say the least. :facepalm

[Full Court]

https://c.tenor.com/fWg9gm1CrdYAAAAM/lebron-james-crying.gif

He literally wrote all this to take a shot at LeBron James. :facepalm

Some of the points are valid for sure but the lengths these sociopaths go to discredit LeBron is abnormal to say the least. :facepalm

He literally said nothing whatsoever about Lebron James. :lol

Beezleblubber is a whiner as well as an idiot.

[Kblaze8855]

How often these days is there a double header with both games having their usual roster?


Good game one was unusual so I knew better than to expect the second game to be intact. Only 4 people on both rosters have ever been well known names and all 4 are out at once….

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2211300841570105.jpeg




Random rest plans, eternal injury, 2-4 week reevaluation of everything….

With considerably worse medical staffs I don’t know if I ever turned on a national tv game 30 years ago to find the 3-4 guys I tuned in to see are all sitting out.


Is that just selective memory or what?

Did like….Kemp, Payton, Barkley, and KJ all miss games together on nba on nbc and I just don’t remember?

[KNOW1EDGE]

He literally said nothing whatsoever about Lebron James. :lol

Beezleblubber is a whiner as well as an idiot.

He literally did say something about LeBron James though. I know it was a lot to read, shoot, I didn’t read it, but it took me 3 seconds to scan and find him mention his disdain for LeBron James.

[Full Court]

He literally did say something about LeBron James though. I know it was a lot to read, shoot, I didn’t read it, but it took me 3 seconds to scan and find him mention his disdain for LeBron James.

Lol, you're right. I see it.

[Full Court]

How often these days is there a double header with both games having their usual roster?


Good game one was unusual so I knew better than to expect the second game to be intact. Only 4 people on both rosters have ever been well known names and all 4 are out at once….

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2211300841570105.jpeg




Random rest plans, eternal injury, 2-4 week reevaluation of everything….

With considerably worse medical staffs I don’t know if I ever turned on a national tv game 30 years ago to find the 3-4 guys I tuned in to see are all sitting out.


Is that just selective memory or what?

Did like….Kemp, Payton, Barkley, and KJ all miss games together on nba on nbc and I just don’t remember?

Nope, not selective memory.

Nobody plays through any kind of pain anymore. You could make an argument that it's a good thing and better for the players....but the sport depends on fans being entertained. You start alienating the fan base, the sport goes into a decline, and that's not good for the players. When people are paying who knows how much for game tickets, and then show up only to watch a bunch of nobodies play, I don't see that as a positive thing.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh it’s absolutely a good and smart thing. They should care more about themselves than entitled fans. Look out for the best financial and health interests of your family.

Im just saying….it makes for a worse product. One of several things.

Games are simply less likely to be fun to watch and on some of these issues we should all be able to come together. But no. I gotta be the old man mad at the cloud as if you don’t all hate these bum ass nobody playing games between friends who all like each other with so much movement there are no lasting team rivalries. Even if you don’t dislike the games you have to know you would like them better under the old circumstances with modern play styles and players.

Everything about the watching experience is worse other than the tv picture quality.

[90sgoat]

It would have been less bad if teams and players had more personality.

A game of 3 point spamming by second and third tier players is often unwatchable.

[dankok8]

Did like….Kemp, Payton, Barkley, and KJ all miss games together on nba on nbc and I just don’t remember?

No that never happened. And then people say the regular season product isn't ruined. :facepalm

[hiphopanonymous]

Top quality entertainment of any era is kinda timeless. I don't consider the modern version of grinch top tier but there are other top tier products today. I for example enjoy all the recent Tarantino movies. Don't really like what the majority of hollywood or entertainment industry does though. I found the original Tom and Jerry episodes recently (from the 40's, not the thousands of remakes afterwards) and watched them not having seen them for the past 20 years. I could not stop laughing at the timing and slapstick, they really had the recipe nailed and I don't think it could be improved on even if someone tried their best with 'modern' whatever - it was just right even way back in the 1940's. Sporting events as far as performances go are timeless too, I don't care about all the people who dismiss any sport from the past - if you understand what the contexts were you'd know the pressure was the same and they were the best of the best that the time could possibly allow and as such it can be watched with just as much excitement save for one key thing: it already happened. vs today the outcomes are happening live which to 99% of people inherently makes it more exciting.

[Xiao Yao You]

Top quality entertainment of any era is kinda timeless. I don't consider the modern version of grinch top tier but there are other top tier products today. I for example enjoy all the recent Tarantino movies. Don't really like what the majority of hollywood or entertainment industry does though. I found the original Tom and Jerry episodes recently (from the 40's, not the thousands of remakes afterwards) and watched them not having seen them for the past 20 years. I could not stop laughing at the timing and slapstick, they really had the recipe nailed and I don't think it could be improved on even if someone tried their best with 'modern' whatever - it was just right even way back in the 1940's. Sporting events as far as performances go are timeless too, I don't care about all the people who dismiss any sport from the past - if you understand what the contexts were you'd know the pressure was the same and they were the best of the best that the time could possibly allow and as such it can be watched with just as much excitement save for one key thing: it already happened. vs today the outcomes are happening live which to 99% of people inherently makes it more exciting.

Tom and Jerry was improved on. It's called Itchy and Scratchy :cheers:

[Kblaze8855]

A big double edged sword on this issue is how derivative everything modern is forced to be. You have a great idea like the Grinch or inside the NBA. Later those things are the standard and copycats and people who just want a working formula try your way. But you don’t have the soul of the originals.

Dr Suess wrote the grinch. It wasn’t meant to be a movie. It was a short story. You can tell it quickly and perfectly with no filler. But it’s 25 minutes. A movie these days has to pad it and dilute the genius of the creator with a writers room trying to get another hour out of it.

Inside the nba is washed up players and Ernie just…getting along. Everyone sees how well it works so they want a version. Next thing you know espn needs it’s loud mouth black guy and a straight man and funny graphics and all. Then we’re stuck with Kendrick Perkins.

Games 30-40 years ago were about the game. No hour long pregame. You get a little 45 second build up then there’s Magic or Jordan playing. Now it’s a whole production. The pregame has to push the stories of the day. It’s just another segment based sports show…again…trying to copy formulas that worked off personality you can’t duplicate.

And on the players side?

The nba is trying to draw fans in without what made the old games special. Personal/team rivalries and players who wanted to play every game as both a matter of pride and to get new contracts. A guy can afford to take a half year off when his shoe deal is 180 million and his 240 from the nba is locked in on top of it.

You change teams whenever you want so the rivalries are hard to develop…the players have less motivation to care….and the shows surrounding it are ripoffs. And even tnt can’t make up for 4 stars sitting out at once.

Every time in possibly hyped for a matchup I can tell in a preview commercial they know people aren’t playing. They just say it’s Blazers and Clippers when before it they say Luka and the mavs vs Steph and the warriors.

The air is out of the balloon before the pregame even starts. They are halfway apologizing to you when the camera turns on now we gotta hear Reggie Miller pretend to wanna watch people he barely knows for 2 hours.

As a total product an old school game is just more likely to give me what I’m there for and little else. And that isn’t even going into the changes to the game. The games are worse to watch even ignoring everything stylistically.

[hiphopanonymous]

Well from a basketball purists standpoint the game of today might be considered very difficult to watch for a few reasons. To an average joe though (and for the average joe), it's been carefully crafted to be "most entertaining" - but that's exactly why purists might enjoy it less. Kblaze you've been around for a while now I'd say at this point being that you still enjoy talking hoops you've got to be somewhat of a purist.

A purist at their core enjoys the 5 on 5 events that take place on the floor. Maybe a little bit of the extra drama but mostly just the 5 on 5. The 5 on 5 rules also change over time but really why is that? Well.... at first the rules were created to make the game fair and fun - but once it became a pro sport that needed fans in the seats to pay for the teams and salaries all the changes from there forward were to make the game more marketable and entertaining. From the shot clock up every change at that point forward was for the fan experience. At some point a purist might start to wonder where the line in the sand should be. Is the best blend of the 5 on 5 what happens right now? Or did we have it a while back? Or perhaps is it some other format we haven't tried yet? That's all subjective so who knows and we are probably biased by the rules or styles we learned in our formative years and if you mess with the recipe too much from what we learned we can find ourselves getting annoyed. But who's to say whatever era we identified with was the best version anyways?

Next thing is the marketing gimmicks that get slapped onto the game which of course has snowballed to become bigger and bigger every year. You know a lot of the rivalries you mentioned and even the hype tape example in the OP of the 1990's Knicks is actually a perfect example of what you might consider good basketball entertainment - however I watched it and noticed they only showed the Knicks players faces looking emotional and intense... no 5 on 5 plays. No real context it's just implied that those faces were supposed to be representative of their competitiveness or something but it really had nothing to do with basketball. You liked it though didn't you? It's an entertainment gimmick being passed off as basketball. It was part of the 90's era recipe to show more emotion from the players because back before sometime around the 1980's they never really showed the faces of players... like ever. They hadn't figured out the entertainment value of that yet. They had to learn to point cameras at peoples faces to do that which now often takes away from showing the game or gets people hyped about things that don't really have much to do with the game. But emotion sells. So do stories, so while stories have always existed in basketball they try to capture narratives and push them today as much as ever. But even way back when, many narratives were wrong or pushed simply for the sake of selling tickets or getting people to tune in.

I consider it all a distraction but I understand why they're doing it. Today they've just turned the volume up on all of it. I went to a game recently. Going to an NBA arena is just a circus performance of nonstop *AAARE YOUU READDYYYYY* guys on microphones, trampoline acts, strobe lights, drum beats, smoke and fire and lots and lots of speaker produced noise and hype. It's insane and bombards the senses. The amount of stoppages of play and the amount of time they take is also ridiculous. If you are a huge fan of basketball as a sport, this is all kind of annoying. But guess what? My wife enjoyed it more than if it was strictly a basketball game. Because of the marketing gimmicks turned up to the max volume it was like a spectacle to her. The modern product is heavily saturated with the latest and greatest entertainment gimmicks.

To me, and maybe to you it makes it a bit challenging to watch but who knows how the youth of today are processing it. In all likelyhood they'll form an opinion that this is how the product of basketball 'should' be and that the future versions a few decades from now are too far in a new direction. And that a few decades prior to their era was too simple and boring. That's what I tend to hear from most people. The goalpost just keeps on moving but the general opinions people hold about the past vs present vs future all sound about the same.