Why does Rudy Gobert get a pass for not developing his offensive game, but Simmons

[GrayGoat]

Gets crushed for it?

There's been much discussion about how Simmons' refusal to develop a shot is an indictment of his passion, work ethic, and competitiveness in this era of NBA basketball.

Running parallel to all that is the case of Rudy Gobert. Gobert is a unique player in today's game, a center with elite rim-protection but with next to no post game or jump shot.Why does a certain poster always blame his teammates instead of his lack of a developed offensive game?

Rudy's offensive game is one-dimensional, in that he is a paint clogging big who, while elite in the screen game, isn't a threat to get a bucket unless it's facilitated.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Gobert isn't even a good defensive player and has been a liability in the playoffs for years.

He's atrocious on both ends and shouldn't be in the league. Legitimately it's the worst trade ever.

[Kblaze8855]

The paint clogging, defensive, monster big, who can’t be relied on to do much but dunk is pretty common, and in many cases respected. It’s an established and accepted approach to the position. There are many many examples. The best of them like Ben Wallace and Mutombo are hall of fame worthy. They were nothing Rudy isn’t on offense. Mutombo began his career in an era they forced bigs the ball so he scored more out the gate but his general level? He’s not gonna do much Gobert doesn’t. Shutting down the paint has always been much of a centers job people accept and respect specialists at it.

Timelord isn’t gonna do much with the ball and does anyone have a problem with him? If so I never heard it.

Rudy just suffers in public from the expectation that comes with his contract and here…from his main fan.

Ben? Point guards…guards in general…. traditionally have been expected to develop scoring skills. But they also have room to do other things. But there are less examples of stars with that play style. Young Kidd is the closest…or maybe Rondo. Among stars. The guys who just play hard d and don’t look to score tend to be role players who don’t have the body type to really dominate.

Ben is in a superstar body with a backup role players hesitancy to impose his will. He seems to be leaving more in the table than most who choose to play so scared.

But this is where he and Rudy share an issue. Being good enough at what they do to get massive pay but not to play the way people associate that pay with.

You get right down to it they annoy people more than they actually hurt teams.

So much of the heat everyone gets is fans validating opinions formed before the player did whatever it is they’re hating on. Let Ben play this years playoffs and they lose. It will be said you can’t win with a point who is shook and he’s the reason they lost. But he didn’t play last playoffs and they got swept. We all know if hed played and they got swept he’d be said to be the reason.

Neither he nor Rudy actually make their teams worse but they are dealing with people so dug in they will be blamed for any failure no matter how not comes about. Doesn’t help they’ve both acted like douchebags at times in some highly publicized situations.

It’s gonna be hard to break the stigma around either but the answer to your question is still simple.


”Dunker” is damn near an nba position at this point and a lot of bigs are expected to play it.

Guards? Less accepted.

Lots of centers aren’t expected to do much but roll hard and dunk.

Nobody asks when Capela is gonna develop a 3 pointer.

Non shooting bigs have always been ok. A lot of them have been stars.

Less so for guards.

[SouBeachTalents]

The paint clogging, defensive, monster big, who can’t be relied on to do much but dunk is pretty common, and in many cases respected. It’s an established and accepted approach to the position. There are many many examples. The best of them like Ben Wallace and Mutombo are hall of fame worthy. They were nothing Rudy isn’t on offense. Mutombo began his career in an era they forced bigs the ball so he scored more out the gate but his general level? He’s not gonna do much Gobert doesn’t. Shutting down the paint has always been much of a centers job people accept and respect specialists at it.

Timelord isn’t gonna do much with the ball and does anyone have a problem with him? If so I never heard it.

Rudy just suffers in public from the expectation that comes with his contract and here…from his main fan.

Ben? Point guards…guards in general…. traditionally have been expected to develop scoring skills. But they also have room to do other things. But there are less examples of stars with that play style. Young Kidd is the closest…or maybe Rondo. Among stars. The guys who just play hard d and don’t look to score tend to be role players who don’t have the body type to really dominate.

Ben is in a superstar body with a backup role players hesitancy to impose his will. He seems to be leaving more in the table than most who choose to play so scared.

But this is where he and Rudy share an issue. Being good enough at what they do to get massive pay but not to play the way people associate that pay with.

You get right down to it they annoy people more than they actually hurt teams.

So much of the heat everyone gets is fans validating opinions formed before the player did whatever it is they’re hating on. Let Ben play this years playoffs and they lose. It will be said you can’t win with a point who is shook and he’s the reason they lost. But he didn’t play last playoffs and they got swept. We all know if hed played and they got swept he’d be said to be the reason.

Neither he nor Rudy actually make their teams worse but they are dealing with people so dug in they will be blamed for any failure no matter how not comes about. Doesn’t help they’ve both acted like douchebags at times in some highly publicized situations.

It’s gonna be hard to break the stigma around either but the answer to your question is still simple.


”Dunker” is damn near an nba position at this point and a lot of bigs are expected to play it.

Guards? Less accepted.

Lots of centers aren’t expected to do much but roll hard and dunk.

Nobody asks when Capela is gonna develop a 3 pointer.

Non shooting bigs have always been ok. A lot of them have been stars.

Less so for guards.
Nailed it. I'm sure the fact that Ben was a number one pick while Rudy went late in the first also plays some factor in the perception as well. But in Ben's case, it doesn't even matter what he does on the court or how he conducts himself off of it, a perimeter player in this era who literally can't shoot a 3 will always be perceived negatively by fans.

[Druckenmiller]

Nailed it. I'm sure the fact that Ben was a number one pick while Rudy went late in the first also plays some factor in the perception as well. But in Ben's case, it doesn't even matter what he does on the court or how he conducts himself off of it, a perimeter player in this era who literally can't shoot a 3 will always be perceived negatively by fans.

We’ve seen lots of centers that didn’t shoot or score and were still relatively successful players. People can wrap their head around that.

We’ve never seen a guard that was literally scared to shoot the ball.

Beyond that, Rudy improved significantly from where he started in the NBA as a late first round pick, while Simmons was the No. 1 overall pick and hasn’t improved at all. If anything, he’s gotten significantly worse with time.

[tontoz]

Rudy's career ortg is 128. I would say most teams would be happy with that from a center even with low volume scoring.

[Kblaze8855]

Rudy's career ortg is 128. I would say most teams would be happy with that from a center even with low volume scoring.

Highest of all time. Deandre Jordan is 5th all time. Steven Adams 14th. Jonas 17th. Chandler 19th. Gobert, Tristian Thompson, and Clint Capela are 1-2-3 all time in the playoffs. Not among bigs. Period. The top 3 offensive ratings in playoff history are 3 modern bigs who do little but dunk. None of the 3 can shoot free throws either.

Turns out someone handing you the ball next to the rim to turn and dunk it with little risk of missing or turning it over produces great offensive ratings.

Considering that I’m impressed Jokic is so high on the list. He actually does things.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Highest of all time. Deandre Jordan is 5th all time. Steven Adams 14th. Jonas 17th. Chandler 19th. Gobert, Tristian Thompson, and Clint Capela are 1-2-3 all time in the playoffs. Not among bigs. Period. The top 3 offensive ratings in playoff history are 3 modern bigs who do little but dunk. None of the 3 can shoot free throws either.

Turns out someone handing you the ball next to the rim to turn and dunk it with little risk of missing or turning it over produces great offensive ratings.

Considering that I’m impressed Jokic is so high on the list. He actually does things.

Fukking roasted.

Stat geek getting murdered.

Whats funny is Toody always leads the league in turnovers per touch and per time of possession despite only touching the ball for wide open dunks.

[Kblaze8855]

I wasn’t talking so much about his opinion I’m just saying that’s one of those stats that has a few ways to get to the top of. Clearly players who aren’t very good on offense can get there by greatly limiting what they try to do. You can dunk your way there without being particularly talented. The guys like Jokic or Magic Johnson who get up there while having the ball and doing a lot of different things are the impressive ones to me. The Goberts and Deandre Jordans? Eh.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I wasn’t talking so much about his opinion I’m just saying that’s one of those stats that has a few ways to get to the top of. Clearly players who aren’t very good on offense can get there by greatly limiting what they try to do. You can dunk your way there without being particularly talented. The guys like Jokic or Magic Johnson who get up there while having the ball and doing a lot of different things are the impressive ones to me. The Goberts and Deandre Jordans? Eh.

You exposed his one dimensional thinking though. He tries to use advanced stats to prove points but he doesn't understand them.

Anybody trying to argue that Toody is a good offensive player literally knows nothing about the NBA. They either have never watched him play or base their opinions on stats they don't understand. In his case its probably both

[tontoz]

Fukking roasted.

Stat geek getting murdered.

Whats funny is Toody always leads the league in turnovers per touch and per time of possession despite only touching the ball for wide open dunks.


Huh? Are you reading impaired? I simply said most teams would be happy with that from a center on offense. Do you think the coaches of the players he listed were disappointed with their production?

:facepalm

Obviously when volume goes up efficiency nwill go down. Ortg is a measure of efficiency. It isn't meant to measure a players entire offensive contribution.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Huh? Are you reading impaired? I simply said most teams would be happy with that from a center on offense. Do you think the coaches of the players he listed were disappointed?

:facepalm

He gets paid over 40 million a year you dumb mother fukker.

He produces like a role player and gets paid like a max superstar. Nobody is happy with that.

[Kblaze8855]

I don’t know what he was scoring when they signed him to that contract but whatever it was, I doubt they expected him to develop into a scorer.

30-40 million is just what good players cost these days. If a really good player makes under 30 million it’s because he signed the deal before he broke out.

[tontoz]

He gets paid over 40 million a year you dumb mother fukker.

He produces like a role player and gets paid like a max superstar. Nobody is happy with that.


What does his contract have to do with it? That is a completely separate argument.

I think Beal is a good player. I was on record as saying I would rather let him walk for nothing rather than paying him $50 million per year.

Contracts are a different discussion.

[fourkicks44]

Simmons always claimed he was a PG in the present day NBA. He was adamant of it. He never even TRIED to address the weaknesses he had that stopped him from becoming a PG his team needed or what was required in today's game.

When questioned about it, his coach said that he wasn't sure he played the right position. In response, Simmons quit on his team and voluntarily sat out a year of his basketball prime.

Gobert never pretended he was a PG in today's game. He never pretended he was something he shouldn't have been.

That is the main difference.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I don’t know what he was scoring when they signed him to that contract but whatever it was, I doubt they expected him to develop into a scorer.

30-40 million is just what good players cost these days. If a really good player makes under 30 million it’s because he signed the deal before he broke out.

He's a role playing center who is a turnover machine. Nobody pays 40 million for that... only dumb franchises who buy the hype on his overrated defense which isn't even effective in the playoffs.

The other guys you mentioned all get payed less than half of Gobert.

[Full Court]

I don't know where OP is coming from. Rudy Gobert gets an inordinate amount of criticism on here. There are threads made after every game about how he sucks lol.

But he "gets a pass"?

:biggums:

[AlternativeAcc.]

What does his contract have to do with it? That is a completely separate argument.

I think Beal is a good player. I was on record as saying I would rather let him walk for nothing rather than paying him $50 million per year.

Contracts are a different discussion.

It has something to do with his team being able to sign other good players. His contract matters,

If it's a purely "is this dude a good player" I honestly don't think he is. Turnover machine, offensive liability, can't defend the PnR for shit and easily exploited in the playoffs.

He's just not good. He's a good rim protector and that's it, but games are won behind the arc so he's a worthless dinosaur. He sucks.

[Xiao Yao You]

It has something to do with his team being able to sign other good players. His contract matters,

If it's a purely "is this dude a good player" I honestly don't think he is. Turnover machine, offensive liability, can't defend the PnR for shit and easily exploited in the playoffs.

He's just not good. He's a good rim protector and that's it, but games are won behind the arc so he's a worthless dinosaur. He sucks.

a lot easier to play behind the perimeter if you're wide open. You play with Gobert you will be wide open a lot

[tontoz]

It has something to do with his team being able to sign other good players. His contract matters,

If it's a purely "is this dude a good player" I honestly don't think he is. Turnover machine, offensive liability, can't defend the PnR for shit and easily exploited in the playoffs.

He's just not good. He's a good rim protector and that's it, but games are won behind the arc so he's a worthless dinosaur. He sucks.



So if he made only $5 million then he wouldn't suck, right?

:facepalm

[AlternativeAcc.]

So if he made only $5 million then he wouldn't suck, right?

:facepalm

He would still suck and I clearly explained that in my previous post.


If it's a purely "is this dude a good player" I honestly don't think he is. Turnover machine, offensive liability, can't defend the PnR for shit and easily exploited in the playoffs.

Reading is hard guys.

[tontoz]

He would still suck and I clearly explained that in my previous post.



Reading is hard guys.


If he was all of that they he wouldn't average 13 ppf for his career shooting 66% with an ortg of 128.

[Kblaze8855]

He doesn’t defend the pick and roll like say a Joakim Noah or how Kevin Garnett could pop out and do a few things and move around but he doesn’t have to. He blows up plays dropping down to the foul line. It isn’t always gonna work with todays shooting but over the course of a season it’s disruptive enough to give him good impact numbers along with the traditional lane filling and shot altering.

Problem is in a playoff series all you need is whoever he’s supposed to be guarding to get even halfway hot. It’s hard to keep an open nba player from getting into a rhythm. And there’s always some long wing you can throw in there who just sacrifices rebounds and ****s you to death dragging him out of the paint on defense.

Teams won’t worry about it in the regular season because you work on your day to day sets without too much concern for any single game. In the playoffs when they all matter?

You can shoot his ass right off the court or make him go actually guard the 3 making his team abandon its defensive tactics of the entire season before then. It’s hard to retrain people who have been used to having him behind them the entire year to just be brick walls when funneling drives his way has been half of the defense.

I don’t know what you do about it at this point other than hope 3-4 straight teams can’t find a decent shooting tall wing to stick at the center when they wanna delete him.

[Xiao Yao You]

He doesn’t defend the pick and roll like say a Joakim Noah or how Kevin Garnett could pop out and do a few things and move around but he doesn’t have to. He blows up plays dropping down to the foul line. It isn’t always gonna work with todays shooting but over the course of a season it’s disruptive enough to give him good impact numbers along with the traditional lane filling and shot altering.

Problem is in a playoff series all you need is whoever he’s supposed to be guarding to get even halfway hot. It’s hard to keep an open nba player from getting into a rhythm. And there’s always some long wing you can throw in there who just sacrifices rebounds and ****s you to death dragging him out of the paint on defense.

Teams won’t worry about it in the regular season because you work on your day to day sets without too much concern for any single game. In the playoffs when they all matter?

You can shoot his ass right off the court or make him go actually guard the 3 making his team abandon its defensive tactics of the entire season before then.

I don’t know what you do about it at this point other than hope 3 4 straight teams can’t find a decent shooting tall wing to stick at the center when they wanna delete him.

You put other guys around him that defend so he doesn't have to try and guard everyone by himself. You have another big that can protect the rim to some extent when he has to leave the paint. You put him with two other great players that will overwhelm them at the other end. A coach that will make adjustments couldn't hurt even if they weren't a great college player

[tontoz]

Sometimes over reliance on the 3 can backfire. Witness Houston a few years back.

Utah's big problem is that they didn't have many good defenders other than Rudy. Conley is good against pgs but is vulnerable on switches.

[Xiao Yao You]

Sometimes over reliance on the 3 can backfire. Witness Houston a few years back.

Utah's big problem is that they didn't have many good defenders other than Rudy. Conley is good against pgs but is vulnerable on switches.

Conley seemed small much of the time but that's more that he was playing with 2's that didn't play big. Utah's D right now has been horrible with Conley out

[Kblaze8855]

You put other guys around him that defend so he doesn't have to try and guard everyone by himself. You have another big that can protect the rim to some extent when he has to leave the paint. You put him with two other great players that will overwhelm them at the other end. A coach that will make adjustments couldn't hurt even if they weren't a great college player


The purpose of a guy who removes the entire paint as an option, is to guard the entire other team. If he were there to guard individuals, he’d be of much less use. He’s a Dikembe Mutombo not a Dennis Rodman. He’s not a man to man stopper he is there for his team defense. Small ball, however makes him either play individual defense and destroy the entire game plan his team has relied on the entire year or continue to defend the paint and concede threes.

Everyone on the team being good at everything isn’t a solution. Or better it’s the solution for everything not this specific issue. They aren’t gonna play him with a second rim defender. That’s usually gonna be a second guy to disrupt the spacing on offense.

And putting him with two elite players isn’t a solution either. You might as well say you solve a teams problems by making them a superteam too overwhelming for their dysfunction to matter.

”Make the whole team great ln both ends” and “Give him two offensive superstars” aren’t tactics they are fairy tails. A gm would likely say “Oh…add multiple superstars? Damn why didn’t we come up with that?”.

It’s just trying to cover the problem with other peoples greatness. You can cover any problem by just adding insurmountable talent so long as they get along.

In the real world where you don’t just make stars and 8 great two way players appear out of thin air you need solutions that involve tactical changes and I don’t see what they could be at this point.

His type just isn’t built for playoff ball in a league where 9 people on every team can punish you from 3 so you can’t play your regular season D after they decide to make you honor it.

If your idea is for him to go guard the perimeter one on one while everyone else stops their men from getting to the paint in a league that set out to neuter perimeter defense you need to go back to the drawing board.

Players can travel, carry, and push off….defenders can’t hold them on the ball or off….and they all have massive driving lanes once you are forced to guard everyone at 23-30 feet.

”Everyone just stop your man” is a pipe dream in the league the nba has created with the caliber of player these guys have to stop.

The problem is leaning on these old school paint clogging bigs to anchor the D all year to begin with. Works great for a while. Will win you some games. But it just gets them out of practice with the kinda offense the nba will play to get that guy out of the game.

There is little to do about it I can see.

[tontoz]

I used to live in Atlanta when Deke was there and he was my favorite player on the team. He would not go out to challenge a 3 point shooter. I seriously don't think he ever did it unless it was an end of game situation.

[iamgine]

OP's premise is wrong. It's not about offensive game or developing a shot. It's about refusal to shoot.

We know Simmons can shoot. He just won't. At all.

It's like if Rudy won't try to block shot at all. How would that look.

[Kblaze8855]

I remember a nasty long two Kobe made over Mutombo in the 01 all star game and it might be the only hard closeout on a shooter I ever saw Mutombo make.

Those kinds of players just present a problem vs a team with 5 shooters. It’s not an indictment of them personally but players generally are suited to the league they play in. Not everyone is built for every situation and every eras play style.

Like I said it makes a big difference spread over 82 games because teams won’t rebuild their whole offense to win a random November Tuesday night game. They’re polishing the execution of what they do not making it up on the fly for tonight.

In the playoffs they prepare to play just you…4-7 times. They play to beat you not to stay sharp at what got them there. Gobert and Mutombo played great modern “Get us there” defense.

When you get there?

You are better off with a Draymond Green style defensive big.

You wouldn’t be in 1992 but it is what it is.

[Axe]

Because toody is just a glorified role player.

[GimmeThat]

because for reasons such as "team" or "system" it's somehow better for players to become even more specialized in the aspect of their responsibility. a concept in which pace tries to obliterate

[Xiao Yao You]

The purpose of a guy who removes the entire paint as an option, is to guard the entire other team. If he were there to guard individuals, he’d be of much less use. He’s a Dikembe Mutombo not a Dennis Rodman. He’s not a man to man stopper he is there for his team defense. Small ball, however makes him either play individual defense and destroy the entire game plan his team has relied on the entire year or continue to defend the paint and concede threes.

Everyone on the team being good at everything isn’t a solution. Or better it’s the solution for everything not this specific issue. They aren’t gonna play him with a second rim defender. That’s usually gonna be a second guy to disrupt the spacing on offense.

And putting him with two elite players isn’t a solution either. You might as well say you solve a teams problems by making them a superteam too overwhelming for their dysfunction to matter.

”Make the whole team great ln both ends” and “Give him two offensive superstars” aren’t tactics they are fairy tails. A gm would likely say “Oh…add multiple superstars? Damn why didn’t we come up with that?”.

It’s just trying to cover the problem with other peoples greatness. You can cover any problem by just adding insurmountable talent so long as they get along.

In the real world where you don’t just make stars and 8 great two way players appear out of thin air you need solutions that involve tactical changes and I don’t see what they could be at this point.

His type just isn’t built for playoff ball in a league where 9 people on every team can punish you from 3 so you can’t play your regular season D after they decide to make you honor it.

If your idea is for him to go guard the perimeter one on one while everyone else stops their men from getting to the paint in a league that set out to neuter perimeter defense you need to go back to the drawing board.

Players can travel, carry, and push off….defenders can’t hold them on the ball or off….and they all have massive driving lanes once you are forced to guard everyone at 23-30 feet.

”Everyone just stop your man” is a pipe dream in the league the nba has created with the caliber of player these guys have to stop.

The problem is leaning on these old school paint clogging bigs to anchor the D all year to begin with. Works great for a while. Will win you some games. But it just gets them out of practice with the kinda offense the nba will play to get that guy out of the game.

There is little to do about it I can see.

we've already seen it. They were upset arguably once. They weren't supposed to win the series they lost with the team they had. They pulled two upsets though. You talk like teams have beaten their D every year. Their D was good enough to beat Houston. Rubio and Favors spotting up in the corner wasn't. Then they tried to play offense like Houston with no 4 and a tiny back court and their D got worse. Than last year they had a great offense during the regular season and in the playoffs it was Rubio/Favors level. Conley sucked. You had a coach that wouldn't make adjusments in the playoffs for 3 straight years. Supposedly they had reached their ceiling. COTM had reached his ceiling 3 years earlier. Tweek the roster with Hardy who knows? I do realize Hardy wasn't as good of a player as COTM though!

[Kblaze8855]

I’ve seen you make that reference at the end like 10 times lately and it feels like you think you’re referencing some argument we had in the past and for the life of me I can’t remember what it was. I can’t find any reference ever of me talking to you or anyone about how good a coach was as a player somehow making him better than coaches who played worse. And I am very good at finding such things. None of my searches have shown me having such a conversation with you but you seem to reference it 4 times a week.

Did you dream it or was it from that lost period around Kobes accident where everything is gone?

[Xiao Yao You]

I’ve seen you make that reference at the end like 10 times lately and it feels like you think you’re referencing some argument we had in the past and for the life of me I can’t remember what it was. I can’t find any reference ever of me talking to you or anyone about how good a coach was as a player somehow making him better than coaches who played worse. And I am very good at finding such things. None of my searches have shown me having such a conversation with you but you seem to reference it 4 times a week.

Did you dream it or was it from that lost period around Kobes accident where everything is gone?

To paraphrase you basically told me I couldn't criticize COTM because he was a better basketball player than me. Hard to forget something so bizarre

[Xiao Yao You]

and hard for anyone to argue that I was right about the Jazz being long over due for a coaching change

[GimmeThat]

and hard for anyone to argue that I was right about the Jazz being long over due for a coaching change

if by hard to argue, you mean you're basing your entire argument that Clarkson playing better than last season is what's making the Jazz better. yea

[Kblaze8855]

To paraphrase you basically told me I couldn't criticize COTM because he was a better basketball player than me. Hard to forget something so bizarre

Whatever that discussion was(if it happened to begin with) I suspect your “paraphrase” is more than a little off.

I’m sure he knew his team better than you did(especially considering you looked at it entirely from a point of view built around propping up one player) but whatever he was as a player wouldn’t be why.

Id love to read whatever that argument was just to see how absurd your take away is and why you think I’d remember it. I’ve been wondering what the hell you’re talking about for quite a while.

[Xiao Yao You]

if by hard to argue, you mean you're basing your entire argument that Clarkson playing better than last season is what's making the Jazz better. yea

no I'm talking about a young guy that hasn't gotten set in his ways and is willing to try anything. He has them playing hard and sharing the ball. They have had a chance to win pretty much every game this year. They have won in many different ways. Clarkson is his biggest negative for sure

[Kblaze8855]

no I'm talking about a young guy that hasn't gotten set in his ways and is willing to try anything. He has them playing hard and sharing the ball. They have had a chance to win pretty much every game this year. They have won in many different ways. Clarkson is his biggest negative for sure

Yet it seems he’s gonna play the most minutes of his career. Why do you think that is? Why did both his previous coach you hate and his current coach you seem to think is a step in the right direction want to play this guy you think it’s terrible so many minutes?

[Xiao Yao You]

Whatever that discussion was(if it happened to begin with) I suspect your “paraphrase” is more than a little off.

I’m sure he knew his team better than you did(especially considering you looked at it entirely from a point of view built around propping up one player) but whatever he was as a player wouldn’t be why.

Id love to read whatever that argument was just to see how absurd your take away is and why you think I’d remember it. I’ve been wondering what the hell you’re talking about for quite a while.

I wouldn't think you'd remember. I certainly didn't forget. God forbid someone criticizes a coach on a discussion board!

He knew his team so much better than me he refused to make adjustments in the playoffs for 3 straight years! I looked at it as they could have beat Denver, LAC and Dallas if they weren't getting out coached. He out coached Rivers and Donovon when they upset those teams. Coaching does matter. A coaches former playing ability not so much

[Xiao Yao You]

Yet it seems he’s gonna play the most minutes of his career. Why do you think that is? Why did both his previous coach you hate and his current coach you seem to think is a step in the right direction want to play this guy you think it’s terrible so many minutes?

could care less. He's a bum as far as I'm concerned. He's a gunner. He's got a low BB IQ. He doesn't defend. He can't shoot but shoots more than anyone. He's awful in the clutch and in final possessions. There's a reason he was a 6th man and not playing at the end of games his whole career. You're free to think what you like about him. I don't like him and never will. I don't like all players. Never have. Can't imagine anyone does!

[Xiao Yao You]

COTM loved Clarkson and didn't allow Alec Burks to play that way. I'd take Burks any day. He's been good as soon as he got away from Utah

[GimmeThat]

no I'm talking about a young guy that hasn't gotten set in his ways and is willing to try anything. He has them playing hard and sharing the ball. They have had a chance to win pretty much every game this year. They have won in many different ways. Clarkson is his biggest negative for sure

actively trying to solve world hunger we see.

[Kblaze8855]

I wouldn't think you'd remember. I certainly didn't forget. God forbid someone criticizes a coach on a discussion board!

He knew his team so much better than me he refused to make adjustments in the playoffs for 3 straight years! I looked at it as they could have beat Denver, LAC and Dallas if they weren't getting out coached. He out coached Rivers and Donovon when they upset those teams. Coaching does matter. A coaches former playing ability not so much

I strongly suspect that not only did I not say it did nobody ever did in a serious fashion. What do you think? I think Magic Johnson was a better coach than Phil Jackson? You have been hung up for months on an argument that either never happened or you intentionally took the wrong way. What do you even think it was about? Give me some key words. I’ll find whatever it was if it happened.

[GimmeThat]

COTM loved Clarkson and didn't allow Alec Burks to play that way. I'd take Burks any day. He's been good as soon as he got away from Utah

if Gobert's WS doesn't go down in the playoff every single season, the Jazz wouldn't look this bad. same players, same minutes, same rotation, but with added pressure that's all.

that's a psychiatrists job, not a coach

[Kblaze8855]

could care less. He's a bum as far as I'm concerned. He's a gunner. He's got a low BB IQ. He doesn't defend. He can't shoot but shoots more than anyone. He's awful in the clutch and in final possessions. There's a reason he was a 6th man and not playing at the end of games his whole career. You're free to think what you like about him. I don't like him and never will. I don't like all players. Never have. Can't imagine anyone does!

He’s a bum that you realize is a bum and neither the last coach nor this coach realizes it. You don’t think that’s odd? You don’t take qualified and much more informed opinions going directly against yours to suggest there may be reason to reconsider positions? Or are you the ultimate authority on how good jazz players are?

if it’s as simple as you think you know best that’s fine. That isn’t a position anyone can really do anything with. It just feels like you actually respect this new coach and he has come in and played Clarkson even more. It feels like that’s something that should make you think.

Genuinely doesn’t even occur to you to wonder why you can so easily tell he’s terrible but the people who evaluate him for a living and decide who plays and who doesn’t keep him on the court?

[GimmeThat]

He’s a bum that you realize is a bum and neither the last coach nor this coach realizes it. You don’t think that’s odd? You don’t take qualified and much more informed opinions going directly against yours to suggest there may be reason to reconsider positions? Or are you the ultimate authority on how good jazz players are?

if it’s as simple as you think you know best that’s fine. That isn’t a position anyone can really do anything with. It just feels like you actually respect this new coach and he has come in and played Clarkson even more. It feels like that’s something that should make you think.

Genuinely doesn’t even occur to you to wonder why you can so easily tell he’s terrible but the people who evaluate him for a living and decide who plays and who doesn’t keep him on the court?

internet, where magic didn't happen

[Overdrive]

You put other guys around him that defend so he doesn't have to try and guard everyone by himself. You have another big that can protect the rim to some extent when he has to leave the paint. You put him with two other great players that will overwhelm them at the other end. A coach that will make adjustments couldn't hurt even if they weren't a great college player

Your solution for Gobert to win is him being the 4th best player of the team? You finally came around and accepted the truth.

[GimmeThat]

Your solution for Gobert to win is him being the 4th best player of the team? You finally came around and accepted the truth.

guess I never understood why teams/players were always so nice towards Gobert. what is he gonna do, not pass you the ball?

[RRR3]

Your solution for Gobert to win is him being the 4th best player of the team? You finally came around and accepted the truth.
:yaohappy:

[Xiao Yao You]

if Gobert's WS doesn't go down in the playoff every single season, the Jazz wouldn't look this bad. same players, same minutes, same rotation, but with added pressure that's all.

that's a psychiatrists job, not a coach

Things stay the same you will likely lose. You make adjustments. Lue threw everything at the Jazz until he found something that worked. Malone went big on the Jazz. It was the difference.

[Xiao Yao You]

Your solution for Gobert to win is him being the 4th best player of the team? You finally came around and accepted the truth.

that might be what it takes in a few seasons when he has declined. He's certainly still the best player on his current team

[Xiao Yao You]

https://uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/smithbig.jpg?w=1024&h=436&crop=1

this clown loves Clarkson. Says it all!

[Kblaze8855]

https://uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/smithbig.jpg?w=1024&h=436&crop=1

this clown loves Clarkson. Says it all!


Your coach is playing him career high minutes. Says quite a bit more.

[Xiao Yao You]

Your coach is playing him career high minutes. Says quite a bit more.

Beasley is better. That's pretty obvious

[Xiao Yao You]

Clarkson now below his career number at 43% and dropping fast as it always does with the bum. Shooting a great for him 35% from 3! A guy shooting that shouldn't be taking 8 3's a game. Does have the career high 2.6 TO a game to go along with the horrendous shooting, gunning, out of control play, passes into the seats, bad D.... The clutch and last possession numbers have to laughable!

BTW the Jazz have lost 5 in a row and 8 out of 10. I'm sure there is no relation to Clarkson's awful numbers being on a downward spiral as anyone that actually watches the games would know was inevitable

[BigShotBob]

Gobert does get roasted for it especially since there is no competition at the center spot for him. He's not worrying about other 7'+ centers that can stop him. So at the end of the day it should be easy especially in a switch happy league but he couldn't even back down Chris Paul

[GimmeThat]

Things stay the same you will likely lose.

so we get to strip away all of Gobert's accolades? nice.

[GimmeThat]

BTW the Jazz have lost 5 in a row and 8 out of 10. I'm sure there is no relation to Clarkson's awful numbers being on a downward spiral as anyone that actually watches the games would know was inevitable

thought it was "hard to argue against the obvious need for coaching change."

[Street Hunger]

Interesting point