Draymond explains why he has LeBron over MJ as the GOAT

[1987_Lakers]

https://worldstar.com/videos/wshh50b5XG0Qj3RJA0g2/draymond-green-explains-why-he-will-take-lebron-over-mj-as-the-goat

[Axe]

"MJ didn't beat the greatest team ever assembled"

[Xiao Yao You]

"MJ didn't beat the greatest team ever assembled"

he didn't join the greatest team ever assembled either like Lebron did. Not one, not two...

[eliteballer]

LeRoid is not the GOAT and never will be the GOAT because of PED's.

[kawhileonard2]

Can't be GOAT when guys in your own era have as many titles in less years and beat you head to head 3 times to 1.

[Baller789]

he didn't join the greatest team ever assembled either like Lebron did. Not one, not two...

Ouch!

:lebroncry:

[3ba11]

All of these facts counter Draymond's false narratives

- 2005 Lebron missed the playoffs with the East all-star center, so he wasn't the best player in the league.

- After taking 3 long years to make the 06' Playoffs with the East all-star center and a 22/5/5 acquisition, Lebron only won 45-50 games from 06-08' (hardly a great example of carrying) until 2009 when he received the elite spacing that his stiff arm needs to be MVP and have a contender/league favorite.

- After failing to win the conference with homecourt in 09' and 10', Lebron formed super-teams to make Finals - he took the top three 1st options in the conference and put them on 1 team, aka decimated the conference to win it

- TLDR: it's fraud and Draymond is disrespecting the real GOATS, aka expert jumpshooters whose superior brand of ball needs less help to win (MJ, Curry, Kobe, Bird) - their skillsets have the teammate development, fits and brand of bakl required to win organically (win with the guys you have including developing young players)

[Spurs m8]

All of these facts counter Draymond's false narratives

- 2005 Lebron missed the playoffs with the East all-star center, so he wasn't the best player in the league.

- After taking 3 long years to make the 06' Playoffs with the East all-star center and a 22/5/5 acquisition, Lebron only won 45-50 games from 06-08' (hardly a great example of carrying) until 2009 when he received the elite spacing that his stiff arm needs to be MVP and have a contender/league favorite.

- After failing to win the conference with homecourt in 09' and 10', Lebron formed super-teams to make Finals - he took the top three 1st options in the conference and put them on 1 team, aka decimated the conference to win it

- TLDR: it's fraud and Draymond is disrespecting the real GOATS, aka expert jumpshooters whose superior brand of ball needs less help to win (MJ, Curry, Kobe, Bird) - their skillsets have the teammate development, fits and brand of bakl required to win organically (win with the guys you have including developing young players)

And here's the truth

Also ..fringe top 10 isn't even in goat discussion

That's a false narrative lapped up by low iq fans

[John8204]

I don't think I would rank Lebron over Jordan but Draymond is right about a few key points

1. Lebron took different teams and weaker players to the finals...Jordan was able to build a super team thanks to Krause, timing of Pippen's contract, and the NBA economics where 1-2 guys got paid.

2. Lebron has skills that Jordan didn't have...Jordan was to small to be successful in the 50's-80's. Wilt Chamberlain once said if Jordan played the way he played in the 60's he'd be gone in a season because his teammates and organization would have chucked him out of the league. No organization would tolerant Jordan running out players like George Gervin and Jerry Stackhouse they were a lot more moral and loyal back then to players and coaches.

3. The talent is better because it's global, Jordan didn't have to compete with slavic players and the communist infrastructure didn't foster greatness that falls and the pool of top guys rises by 20-40%.

4. Lebron had a 15 year run...that's twice as long as Jordan's 8 year run. Lebron is still not in decline which means he could play and ring chase into his late 40's

[Baller789]

I don't think I would rank Lebron over Jordan but Draymond is right about a few key points

1. Lebron took different teams and weaker players to the finals...Jordan was able to build a super team thanks to Krause, timing of Pippen's contract, and the NBA economics where 1-2 guys got paid.

2. Lebron has skills that Jordan didn't have...Jordan was to small to be successful in the 50's-80's. Wilt Chamberlain once said if Jordan played the way he played in the 60's he'd be gone in a season because his teammates and organization would have chucked him out of the league. No organization would tolerant Jordan running out players like George Gervin and Jerry Stackhouse they were a lot more moral and loyal back then to players and coaches.

3. The talent is better because it's global, Jordan didn't have to compete with slavic players and the communist infrastructure didn't foster greatness that falls and the pool of top guys rises by 20-40%.

4. Lebron had a 15 year run...that's twice as long as Jordan's 8 year run. Lebron is still not in decline which means he could play and ring chase into his late 40's

Some valid points. However easily debunked/ countered.

1. Lebron is the better team floor raiser, however Jordan raises his competetive team's ceiling higher.

2. Jordan also has skills Lebron doesn't have. It's not like it's unanimously in Lebron's favor. Also Wilt also said he slept with 20,000 women and fought a mountain lion with his bare hands. Meh.

3. I'd concede #3. Talent is a lot deeper. Though I think it mostly affects role players than the stars level.

4. Twice as long yet less dominant as shown with less accolades and rings.

[John8204]

Some valid points. However easily debunked/ countered.

1. Lebron is the better team floor raiser, however Jordan raises his competetive team's ceiling higher.

2. Jordan also has skills Lebron doesn't have. It's not like it's unanimously in Lebron's favor. Also Wilt also said he slept with 20,000 women and fought a mountain lion with his bare hands. Meh.

3. I'd concede #3. Talent is a lot deeper. Though I think it mostly affects role players than the stars level.

4. Twice as long yet less dominant as shown with less accolades and rings.

1. Very true Jordan, Jordan had more accomplishments than Lebron which is why he's number one in my eyes. But it does need to be stated that he had Pippen as the sixth highest paid player on his team which allowed the Bulls to spread out resources to surround Jordan with elite role players. Lebron won his fourth for a major reason because of Alex Caruso getting guys to swallow their ego and take less money leads to titles....or just tricking them and scumbagging them like Krause did to Pippen.

2. Once again fair point...Jordan is a great scorer and great iso player. I think Lebron has more tools but Jordan has a scoring ability that Lebron doesn't have.

4. What Jordan did was great but I have a lot more respect for the guys that not only stick around for a long time but are productive (Stockton, Miller, KAJ, Dirk, Kobe). Lebron is doing things that Sammy Baugh and Cap Anson did and unlike Tom Brady he's not being protected by rule changes and officiating. If anything I think he would have been more successful in the physical eras.

Draymond makes a valid case of Lebron over Jordan I don't agree with it but I'm not mad about it. It's better than the hyperbolic comments in this thread.

[SATAN]

Didn't watch the clip but Draymond is obviously correct. Doesn't take a rocket scientist.

[3ba11]

I don't think I would rank Lebron over Jordan but Draymond is right about a few key points

1. Lebron took different teams and weaker players to the finals...Jordan was able to build a super team thanks to Krause, timing of Pippen's contract, and the NBA economics where 1-2 guys got paid.

2. Lebron has skills that Jordan didn't have...Jordan was to small to be successful in the 50's-80's. Wilt Chamberlain once said if Jordan played the way he played in the 60's he'd be gone in a season because his teammates and organization would have chucked him out of the league. No organization would tolerant Jordan running out players like George Gervin and Jerry Stackhouse they were a lot more moral and loyal back then to players and coaches.

3. The talent is better because it's global, Jordan didn't have to compete with slavic players and the communist infrastructure didn't foster greatness that falls and the pool of top guys rises by 20-40%.

4. Lebron had a 15 year run...that's twice as long as Jordan's 8 year run. Lebron is still not in decline which means he could play and ring chase into his late 40's


From 2001 to 2009, the East was mostly won by 1-star teams that got destroyed against the West in the Finals (01' Iverson, 02' Kidd, 03' Kidd, 07' Lebron, 09' Dwight).

Lebron couldn't win this conference except a 1-off

That isn't on Jordan's level of carrying ability

Would you rank Derozan's Raptors above Barkley's Sixers from 1990 or Ewing's Knicks from 89'?... They're about the same caliber, so Jordan would win the 00's East most years with a weak cast just like Iverson, Kidd, Dwight, or 07' Lebron did..

The reality is that Jordan's conference finals opponents (Bad Boys, Knicks, Magic, Pacers) compared to Lebron's Finals comp (Spurs, Mavs, Butler Heat, Curry Warriors).. Meanwhile, his Finals comp consisted of 10-year organic juggernauts that could only be compared to the Warriors or Spurs.

[3ba11]

there's so much misperception itt and low-level thinking/analysis

[3ba11]

:facepalm:

let's put the kids to bed and only have the adults itt..

[3ba11]

.
.
1990 Sixers'...... 53 wins... #6 SRS.... Barkley best player
2007 Pistons..... 53 wins... #7 SRS.... Billups

1989 Knicks...... 52 wins... #8 SRS.... Ewing
2018 Celtics...... 55 wins... #7 SRS.... Horford

2015 Hawks...... 60 wins... #4 SRS.... Millsap



^^^ Jordan's 2nd Round competition compares to Lebron's conference finals competition (above), while the stats confirm the weaker East (below):



https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-18-2021/MXQa8S.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-18-2021/RrurVS.gif



* Needing 3 years to make 06' Playoffs with an all-star center and a 22/5/5 all-defender isn't an all-time level of carrying

* Winning 45-50 games from 06-08' with an all-star center and a 22/5/5 acquisition isn't an all-time level of carrying

* Having a one-off Finals run like Iverson, Kidd, or Dwight in a worst-ever conference isn't an all-time level of carrying

* Needing elite spacing help in 2009 to be MVP or have a contender or league favorite isn't an all-time level of carrying

* Failing to win East w/ homecourt in 09/10 and then forming super-teams to make Finals isn't an all-time level of carrying

* Winning 2018 East with the best 2nd option in East against rookies led by Al Horford isn't an all-time level of carrying

[Baller789]

I don't think I would rank Lebron over Jordan but Draymond is right about a few key points

1. Lebron took different teams and weaker players to the finals...Jordan was able to build a super team thanks to Krause, timing of Pippen's contract, and the NBA economics where 1-2 guys got paid.

2. Lebron has skills that Jordan didn't have...Jordan was to small to be successful in the 50's-80's. Wilt Chamberlain once said if Jordan played the way he played in the 60's he'd be gone in a season because his teammates and organization would have chucked him out of the league. No organization would tolerant Jordan running out players like George Gervin and Jerry Stackhouse they were a lot more moral and loyal back then to players and coaches.

3. The talent is better because it's global, Jordan didn't have to compete with slavic players and the communist infrastructure didn't foster greatness that falls and the pool of top guys rises by 20-40%.

4. Lebron had a 15 year run...that's twice as long as Jordan's 8 year run. Lebron is still not in decline which means he could play and ring chase into his late 40's

1. Let's be real, Lebron played in the LEASTern Conference. The bad contract signed by Pip was his own boneheaded move tho. Regardless that played well into Kraus' hands. But I would counter Lebron played with amongst the highest payrollled teams. So you can't just blame it on team building. Plus Lebron being able to jump ship and be LeGM totally negates this.

2, Scoring... Which also happens to be the most important skill in basketball.

4. Well its longevity vs peak. And I think Jordan played long enough to not be a flash in a pan player. Also Lebron would not need protecting because this era's rules are already soft. Lebron for how great and durable as he is, I doubt he would have the same longevity back in the 80's and 90's.


Nice back and forth tho :rockon:

[3ba11]

1. Let's be real, Lebron played in the LEASTern Conference. The bad contract signed by Pip was his own boneheaded move tho. Regardless that played well into Kraus' hands. But I would counter Lebron played with amongst the highest payrollled teams. So you can't just blame it on team building. Plus Lebron being able to jump ship and be LeGM totally negates this.

2, Scoring... Which also happens to be the most important skill in basketball.

4. Well its longevity vs peak. And I think Jordan played long enough to not be a flash in a pan player. Also Lebron would not need protecting because this era's rules are already soft. Lebron for how great and durable as he is, I doubt he would have the same longevity back in the 80's and 90's.


Nice back and forth tho :rockon:


The Bulls surrounded Jordan with a 7 ppg rookie in 1988

The Cavs surrounded Lebron with 2x all-star Zydrunas, 1x all-star Mo, 2x all-star Jamison, superior team defenses and far more rebounding help or rim protection.




1. Let's be real, Lebron played in the LEASTern Conference. The bad contract signed by Pip was his own boneheaded move tho. Regardless that played well into Kraus' hands. But I would counter Lebron played with amongst the highest payrollled teams. So you can't just blame it on team building. Plus Lebron being able to jump ship and be LeGM totally negates this.

2, Scoring... Which also happens to be the most important skill in basketball.

4. Well its longevity vs peak. And I think Jordan played long enough to not be a flash in a pan player. Also Lebron would not need protecting because this era's rules are already soft. Lebron for how great and durable as he is, I doubt he would have the same longevity back in the 80's and 90's.


Nice back and forth tho :rockon:



The 2009 Cavs had the #3 defense compared to #19 for the 1990 Bulls, while Mo was superior to Pippen offensively across the board (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, scoring, efficiency).

So Lebron started with a better cast on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost again as the favorite for 2 more years (10', 11')




1. Let's be real, Lebron played in the LEASTern Conference. The bad contract signed by Pip was his own boneheaded move tho. Regardless that played well into Kraus' hands. But I would counter Lebron played with amongst the highest payrollled teams. So you can't just blame it on team building. Plus Lebron being able to jump ship and be LeGM totally negates this.

2, Scoring... Which also happens to be the most important skill in basketball.

4. Well its longevity vs peak. And I think Jordan played long enough to not be a flash in a pan player. Also Lebron would not need protecting because this era's rules are already soft. Lebron for how great and durable as he is, I doubt he would have the same longevity back in the 80's and 90's.


Nice back and forth tho :rockon:


2009 Mo............. #3 team defense... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48
1990 Pippen..... #19 team defense... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48

2010 Cavs.......... #7 team defense...... 3 scoring options (Bron, Mo, Jamison)
1991 Bulls.......... #7 team defense...... 2 scoring options (MJ, Pippen)

[GrayGoat]

Draymond is a smart man