Is Jimmy Butler the most enigmatic player in basketball?

[PeroAntic]

I mean its so hard to have a consensus ranking/evaluation this guy.

In my eyes he has literally everything. One of the quickest and strongest players in the game, can score from everywhere, impeccable footwork, one of the best defenders ever in his position, hardest worker, clutch AF, you name it hes got it.

Yet... somehow hes not top 5? And many would say not even top 10??? He is the player for who it is most evident how much he improves his team, leads them to becoming contenders, multitude of deep playoff runs... and yet.

If his ranking depends on rings I would understand, but there is a bunch of guys who havent won yet and they are still ranked above. The reason? They have better ppg, nothing else. But people who know basketball know Jimmy is one of the top 5 basketball players on the planet, and ppg means shit when you take everything into account.

/end rant

[Full Court]

I have Butler ranked top 5-10. He's underrated for sure.

[PeroAntic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjfhsY3WEY8


I mean really, is there anyone with this combination of positional awareness, instincts, focus and hand/foot quickness? And unlike other great defenders he doesn't switch if off to conserve himself for offense, nor has he had a down season defensively. He's just out of this world and doesn't get nearly enough credit.

[ArbitraryWater]

He's really great.

Probably misses the production/workload to be a superstar though.

He's right at the brink of that.

Borderline top 10.

[Axe]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRNyWIBB-ZavJoD5ctoAZNEFDsP68I2oW6XZA&usqp=CAU

[AlternativeAcc.]

Has some really amazing playoff runs. He's better than curry for whatever that's worth.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I would describe him as the opposite of superstar prime Westbrook. He isn't going to drag an untalented team to a good record, he doesn't dominate the ball that way to control every game. But if he is surrounded by good or great players tgat need a guy to take over in the clutch it would be hard to find someone better. The fact that he is not like Westbrook Doncic Harden etc. and probably couldn't be carrying the team is why he isn't regarded as top 5. But if he is ever on a great team that team will be dangerous. Which reminds me...Philly blew it.

[PeroAntic]

I would describe him as the opposite of superstar prime Westbrook. He isn't going to drag an untalented team to a good record, he doesn't dominate the ball that way to control every game. But if he is surrounded by good or great players tgat need a guy to take over in the clutch it would be hard to find someone better. The fact that he is not like Westbrook Doncic Harden etc. and probably couldn't be carrying the team is why he isn't regarded as top 5. But if he is ever on a great team that team will be dangerous. Which reminds me...Philly blew it.

Who would get better results with this Miami team if he replaced Jimmy? Its hard to make that argument for literally anyone outside of Giannis and Jokic.

[FultzNationRISE]

Who would get better results with this Miami team if he replaced Jimmy? Its hard to make that argument for literally anyone outside of Giannis and Jokic.

Lebron made four straight finals in Miami :hammerhead:

[dankok8]

I would argue Butler is overrated by those who have him top 5 or consensus top 10. He is putting up ok numbers with good defense. 22/6/6 on +3 rTS is nothing special in today's NBA. As ArbitraryWater said he's borderline top 10, probably top 15 for me to be safe.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Who would get better results with this Miami team if he replaced Jimmy? Its hard to make that argument for literally anyone outside of Giannis and Jokic.

I could make a list of guys that might but Miami is really not the kind of team in talking about. I mean something like what Westbrook had in OKC after Durant left where the star player had to score 30 or put up a triple double or both for the team to win. In Miami hero lHerro is a good shooter and adebayo may be an allstar, that's not the kind of support I'm talking about. Hard to say how much he is carrying them vs what they need because he's missed some games and they have a bad record but last year they were a good team that he wasn't truly carrying.

[PeroAntic]

I would argue Butler is overrated by those who have him top 5 or consensus top 10. He is putting up ok numbers with good defense. 22/6/6 on +3 rTS is nothing special in today's NBA. As ArbitraryWater said he's borderline top 10, probably top 15 for me to be safe.
There it is. the ppg argument.

Shame really.

[PeroAntic]

I could make a list of guys that might but Miami is really not the kind of team in talking about. I mean something like what Westbrook had in OKC after Durant left where the star player had to score 30 or put up a triple double or both for the team to win. In Miami hero lHerro is a good shooter and adebayo may be an allstar, that's not the kind of support I'm talking about. Hard to say how much he is carrying them vs what they need because he's missed some games and they have a bad record but last year they were a good team that he wasn't truly carrying.

Youre saying that if Westbrook didn't have triple doubles and score 30 on low efficiency, then OKC wouldn't have made the playoffs? His boxscore stats are a product of his ballhogging. Anyone can do that.

Jimmy is both a floor and ceiling raiser, which makes him a very rare breed. And his game is made for the playoffs. He has so many intangibles that should theoretically overshadow the ppg by a lot, but somehow it doesnt. ppg is easy to see, intangibles are not. But from watching him play, you just know that if he focuses only on scoring he would be among the best in the league. His bag is crazy deep. But he doesnt because thats not the way to win, hence the ppg is what it is, hence people who just look at stats (see above) just don't understand.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Youre saying that if Westbrook didn't have triple doubles and score 30 on low efficiency, then OKC wouldn't have made the playoffs? His boxscore stats are a product of his ballhogging. Anyone can do that.

Jimmy is both a floor and ceiling raiser, which makes him a very rare breed. And his game is made for the playoffs. He has so many intangibles that should theoretically overshadow the ppg by a lot, but somehow it doesnt. ppg is easy to see, intangibles are not. But from watching him play, you just know that if he focuses only on scoring he would be among the best in the league. His bag is crazy deep. But he doesnt because thats not the way to win, hence the ppg is what it is, hence people who just look at stats (see above) just don't understand.
When you say that anyone could do what Westbrook did you are completely wrong. The value of an inefficient volume player is debatable but the mirror is not. Almost no one in NBA history could go out there play 81 games and average 31 points 10 boards and 10 assists in 34 minutes pee game. Most of the few players with the necessary talents couldn't handle the workload. Trivializing the sheer effort required is wrong. Jimmy Butler could not do that, he had only managed to play over 70 games twice and he was nowhere near any 30/10/10 when he did it. You don't have to like it but you really should be able to understand that it's difficult which is why it's rare.

[Full Court]

I kinda have to give most enigmatic to this guy:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.gq.com%2Fphotos%2F619d44c7f 3b9613312e5a58d%2F16%3A9%2Fw_2560%252Cc_limit%2Fst ory%252520dnc%252520259207888_4588755407868444_173 4975685078234037_n.jpeg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=639574f48f45a07e1a482be5650ac98f376770742fba44 189705325327693efd&ipo=images

[PeroAntic]

When you say that anyone could do what Westbrook did you are completely wrong. The value of an inefficient volume player is debatable but the mirror is not. Almost no one in NBA history could go out there play 81 games and average 31 points 10 boards and 10 assists in 34 minutes pee game. Most of the few players with the necessary talents couldn't handle the workload. Trivializing the sheer effort required is wrong. Jimmy Butler could not do that, he had only managed to play over 70 games twice and he was nowhere near any 30/10/10 when he did it. You don't have to like it but you really should be able to understand that it's difficult which is why it's rare.

I'm saying they didn't win because of his triple doubles, but because it was a decent team. Take away the rebounds that Westbrick has been pointlessly stealing from his big men, its just chucking and spamming the pick n roll for him to get assists. Sure, it takes grit and determination day in day out, but any star can get those numbers nowadays if they set their mind to it. Jimmy probably more than any one in particular.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I'm saying they didn't win because of his triple doubles, but because it was a decent team. Take away the rebounds that Westbrick has been pointlessly stealing from his big men, its just chucking and spamming the pick n roll for him to get assists. Sure, it takes grit and determination day in day out, but any star can get those numbers nowadays if they set their mind to it. Jimmy probably more than any one in particular.

Completely wrong. Westbrook won mvp and got himself the supremax for doing what he did. If it was so easy the list of people that did it would have more than two names. Saying Butler could is silly when he's never averaged over 24 points7 assists or 6 rebounds and has one season over 70 games in the last decade. Every player could do more than their current level of contribution but averaging a triple double that includes 30 points and playing almost every game is a different level of effort.

[PP34Deuce]

Jimmy is like Paul pierce. So many dynamic swing man and guards but on any night he can Match other guys.

[RRR3]

I'm saying they didn't win because of his triple doubles, but because it was a decent team. Take away the rebounds that Westbrick has been pointlessly stealing from his big men, its just chucking and spamming the pick n roll for him to get assists. Sure, it takes grit and determination day in day out, but any star can get those numbers nowadays if they set their mind to it. Jimmy probably more than any one in particular.
Westbrook wasn't inefficient in his prime actually.

[dankok8]

There it is. the ppg argument.

Shame really.

Hmm... what?

Which of these players would you take Butler over? I'd like to hear your argument.

Giannis
Curry
Durant
Jokic
Doncic
Embiid
Davis
Lebron
Tatum

I think he's worse than all these guys and best case #10. And I might be forgetting someone too.

[ImKobe]

Hmm... what?

Which of these players would you take Butler over? I'd like to hear your argument.

Giannis
Curry
Durant
Jokic
Doncic
Embiid
Davis
Lebron
Tatum

I think he's worse than all these guys and best case #10. And I might be forgetting someone too.

Butler outplayed Tatum H2H on one knee in the ECF


Jimmy outplayed Bran & Davis in the Finals as well if you look at the stats tbh & outplayed Giannis in that same Playoff run too

[Real Men Wear Green]

Butler did do more that series but Tatum's season statistics are a level above and in that series Tatum did still cement the conference playoff MVP award.

[ImKobe]

Butler did do more that series but Tatum's season statistics are a level above and in that series Tatum did still cement the conference playoff MVP award.

It was close. Butler had two single-digit games due to his injury & limited minutes so it averages out but he was better in 4 games. Still, the best player on the winning team should almost always win that award so JT deserved it.

[John8204]

Hmm... what?

Which of these players would you take Butler over? I'd like to hear your argument.

Giannis
Curry
Durant
Jokic
Doncic
Embiid
Davis
Lebron
Tatum

I think he's worse than all these guys and best case #10. And I might be forgetting someone too.

The big thing is waiting till the end of the season....because Davis, Durant, and even Embiid are guys that I don't know if I trust them consistently for the season and to perform in the postseason.

The thing with Butler is that he's in essence the GSW big three. He should be the Draymond Green of that team as the Point Forward who controls the game for the skill guys. But then other nights he looks like Curry giving you 30/40 points. But his basis rest spot is a #2 option defensive player like Klay.

I expect him to be in the HOF but I'm not sure if he'll be a second ballot or third ballot guy

[Full Court]

Hmm... what?

Which of these players would you take Butler over? I'd like to hear your argument.

Giannis
Curry
Durant
Jokic
Doncic
Embiid
Davis
Lebron
Tatum

I think he's worse than all these guys and best case #10. And I might be forgetting someone too.

I'd take Butler over Embiid, Davis, Lebron, and Tatum. Probably Doncic too. Butler may not put up raw numbers as impressive as those guys, but his leadership is far better than any them, and his impact greatly exceeds the raw stats.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I'd take Butler over Embiid, Davis, Lebron, and Tatum. Probably Doncic too. Butler may not put up raw numbers as impressive as those guys, but his leadership is far better than any them, and his impact greatly exceeds the raw stats.

Celtics have the best record and Tatum is number 1 in the NBA in plus minus by a wide margin. Butler has no argument over him beyond the belief that he is better at the end of the game. Tatum's impact is undeniable.

[Full Court]

Celtics have the best record and Tatum is number 1 in the NBA in plus minus by a wide margin. Butler has no argument over him beyond the belief that he is better at the end of the game. Tatum's impact is undeniable.

He's having his best year yet, but really my biggest criticism of Tatum is he has too many periodic games where he just disappears or goes 0 for 8 from three or something like that. Maybe I'm wrong, but my impression is that he has those kinds of games more frequently than most of the other star players.

[Real Men Wear Green]

He's having his best year yet, but really my biggest criticism of Tatum is he has too many periodic games where he just disappears or goes 0 for 8 from three or something like that. Maybe I'm wrong, but my impression is that he has those kinds of games more frequently than most of the other star players. He shoots 48% from the field. He has some bad games and you can look them up if you're curious but overall he is having a great season.

[1987_Lakers]

I'd take Butler over Embiid, Davis, Lebron, and Tatum. Probably Doncic too.

Jesus Christ

[Full Court]

Jesus Christ

Other than Lebron and Davis, who be played against, how many of those guys have led a team to the finals? And how much help did Butler have doing that? Adebayo and Duncan Robinson?

[Full Court]

He shoots 48% from the field. He has some bad games and you can look them up if you're curious but overall he is having a great season.

Yep, I don't deny he's having a great season. If I were stacking a team, I'd take Butler over him though.

[PeroAntic]

I'd take Butler over Embiid, Davis, Lebron, and Tatum. Probably Doncic too. Butler may not put up raw numbers as impressive as those guys, but his leadership is far better than any them, and his impact greatly exceeds the raw stats.

That would have been exactly my answer.:cheers:

Definitely Doncic too. Maybe even Durant at this age. KD's defensive impact is diminished and he's not involving the team as Butler does. The three players who are clearly better than Butler for me are Jokic, Giannis and Curry. And Jokic and Curry are not good defenders, so...

Tatum is a system player. He scores a lot and he rebounds well, but compared to Butler he's one dimensional honestly. There is nobody who lifts his team so much, while having so much variety AND efficiency to his offensive game, while being such a defensive presence, while being so clutch. There simply isn't.

People don't understand because they can't look past the raw stats aka ppgz.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I have watched every game of Tatum's nba career. One dimensional? You have no idea what you're talking about.

[dankok8]

Real talk. Current Tatum is better than Butler on both ends of the floor.

[ArbitraryWater]

Masterpiece close-out against the Clips by Jimmy B.

Love to watch it live.

[SouBeachTalents]

Butler is roughly PG level imo, but definitely more reliable in the postseason, where as George obv can be erratic. I will say though, people like to conveniently gloss over Butler putting up 15 ppg on 39%TS in the playoffs as the defending conference champ 2 years ago. Shows the difference in standards when KD got obliterated for his performance against Boston, while barely a peep was made about that

In terms of where he ranks right now

Jokic
AD
KD
Curry
Tatum
Embiid
Giannis
Luka

are all clearly rank ahead of Butler imo, LeBron could join that list if he maintains his recent level of play, and the likes of PG, Ja & Mitchell would be in the discussion as well. Butler has proven he can play at a legit BITW caliber in the playoffs, but maintaining that at a consistent level throughout the year matters.

[Gohan]

Has some really amazing playoff runs. He's better than curry for whatever that's worth.

Cmon hes not better than curry but hes still one of the best players in the league. Underrated for sure

[Axe]

Cmon hes not better than curry but hes still one of the best players in the league. Underrated for sure
Curry has been blessed with bonafide all-star teammates who turned into perennial contenders in the finals. Something that butler could only ever dream of.

[dankok8]

Butler is roughly PG level imo, but definitely more reliable in the postseason, where as George obv can be erratic. I will say though, people like to conveniently gloss over Butler putting up 15 ppg on 39%TS in the playoffs as the defending conference champ 2 years ago. Shows the difference in standards when KD got obliterated for his performance against Boston, while barely a peep was made about that

In terms of where he ranks right now

Jokic
AD
KD
Curry
Tatum
Embiid
Giannis
Luka

are all clearly rank ahead of Butler imo, LeBron could join that list if he maintains his recent level of play, and the likes of PG, Ja & Mitchell would be in the discussion as well. Butler has proven he can play at a legit BITW caliber in the playoffs, but maintaining that at a consistent level throughout the year matters.

Good post. I don't know that he's better than PG. George had some great playoff series. I think they are very much in the same tier. Would probably put Booker, Ja and Mitchell there as well in the same tier.

I still got Lebron > Butler. Even though Butler played him to a draw in the 2020 Finals. Lebron is still a better player in general even in 2022. Butler gets insanely overrated because of one series.

[PeroAntic]

Good post. I don't know that he's better than PG. George had some great playoff series. I think they are very much in the same tier. Would probably put Booker, Ja and Mitchell there as well in the same tier.

I still got Lebron > Butler. Even though Butler played him to a draw in the 2020 Finals. Lebron is still a better player in general even in 2022. Butler gets insanely overrated because of one series.

I bet this guy hasnt even seen Jimmy Butler play basketball.

[Axe]

Good post. I don't know that he's better than PG. George had some great playoff series. I think they are very much in the same tier. Would probably put Booker, Ja and Mitchell there as well in the same tier.

I still got Lebron > Butler. Even though Butler played him to a draw in the 2020 Finals. Lebron is still a better player in general even in 2022. Butler gets insanely overrated because of one series.
I thought the 2020 disney bubble didn't matter at all? :confusedshrug: :roll:

[PeroAntic]

I have watched every game of Tatum's nba career. One dimensional? You have no idea what you're talking about.

I have seen plenty of Tatum. Butler is faster, more agile, stronger, better passer, finisher, defender, leader, more clutch, hustles more and more efficient (doesn't chuck).

Its completely irrelevant that he doesnt have Tatum's ppgz. Jimmy shoots less. The only thing Tatum has over Butler is rebounds (duh) and 3pt shooting.

Paul George isn't even in the conversation with Butler. Neither is Lebron anymore. Butler could be the most underrated player in history

[1987_Lakers]

Other than Lebron and Davis, who be played against, how many of those guys have led a team to the finals? And how much help did Butler have doing that? Adebayo and Duncan Robinson?

Butler wasn't even the best player on his team in the ECF series in 2020 when they beat Boston.

Seriously, ranking Butler ahead of guys like Embiid, Tatum & Luka is such an insane take.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I have seen plenty of Tatum. Butler is faster, more agile, stronger, better passer, finisher, defender, leader, more clutch, hustles more and more efficient (doesn't chuck).

Its completely irrelevant that he doesnt have Tatum's ppgz. Jimmy shoots less. The only thing Tatum has over Butler is rebounds (duh) and 3pt shooting.

Paul George isn't even in the conversation with Butler. Neither is Lebron anymore. Butler could be the most underrated player in history

So first off all, you said Tatum was "one dimensional." Analysis like that invalidates your opinion because it shows you have no idea what you are talking about. As far as all the areas you say Butler is better? I will actually give him the edge in clutch play but when it comes to Tatum we are still talking about a guy that has lead his team to the conference finals there times and the finals once before the age of 25 so he's not a choker. I'm not sure who is faster or has more agility, both are above the average at their positions as athletes but neither is a true freak like VC Lebron etc. Strength? Have you seen Tatum in the last two years? He can legit play power forward. I am not sure what his current weight is but he's been lifting as hard as anyone. Hustle and defense? Butler gives both but when you doubt Tatum here is just your ignorance dining through. I don't see how anyone could question Tatum defense and hustle after he shut KD down for a whole playoff series. SF doesn't average over a block and 8 boards of he isn't playing hard. I won't argue the leadership either at this point but recognize that again he had led his team to the finals at 24.

And of course you continue to disregard the fact that Tatum is carrying a greater load by calling it chucking. He is shooting 48%. He's an efficient scorer. You are trying to act like averaging 30 for one of the best offenses the NBA had ever seen is a negative. If you don't like him then fine you can have your preferences but the things you are saying about him are completely off.

[PeroAntic]

So first off all, you said Tatum was "one dimensional." Analysis like that invalidates your opinion because it shows you have no idea what you are talking about.

Maybe one dimensional is the wrong expression but his game is very schematic in line with modern basketball. Ultimately not a very creative player. Hes hot right now but hes bound to regress to the mean as usual.

Also don't mistake saying Butler is better in this and that for saying Tatum is bad at it. Hes great, just Butler is better. You are free to agree to disagree obviously. But Jimmy is a top 5 player in the league if ppg is not that much of a factor. Last game was classic Jimmy, shot 12 times and had 8 assists and 4 steals. He just does everything out there.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Maybe one dimensional is the wrong expression but his game is very schematic in line with modern basketball. Ultimately not a very creative player. Hes hot right now but hes bound to regress to the mean as usual.

Also don't mistake saying Butler is better in this and that for saying Tatum is bad at it. Hes great, just Butler is better. You are free to agree to disagree obviously. But Jimmy is a top 5 player in the league if ppg is not that much of a factor. Last game was classic Jimmy, shot 12 times and had 8 assists and 4 steals. He just does everything out there.
One;dimensional is definitely wrong, not just "maybe."
his game is very schematic in line with modern basketball. Ultimately not a very creative player. Hes hot right now but hes bound to regress to the mean as usual.Is as worthless a critique as could possibly be made. You say a player that has improved every year of his career and is still only 24 is going to "regress to the mean" What is his mean? Do you mean the 27 he averaged last year? The 26 the year before that? What does regressing to the mean mean for a guy that just made All-NBA first team? The criticisms you have been making are so worthless, "Not a very creative player." What makes a player creative? What is this thing that he is supposed to do but isnt doing? The reality is that you don't have an argument and so just level vague crap so you can feel there is some kind of justification for taking Butler.

Points per game is always going to be a huge factor, by the way.

[PeroAntic]

One;dimensional is definitely wrong, not just "maybe." Is as worthless a critique as could possibly be made. You say a player that has improved every year of his career and is still only 24 is going to "regress to the mean" What is his mean? Do you mean the 27 he averaged last year? The 26 the year before that? What does regressing to the mean mean for a guy that just made All-NBA first team? The criticisms you have been making are so worthless, "Not a very creative player." What makes a player creative? What is this thing that he is supposed to do but isnt doing? The reality is that you don't have an argument and so just level vague crap so you can feel there is some kind of justification for taking Butler.

Points per game is always going to be a huge factor, by the way.

If you know you know. We can talk about player IQ the whole time which is even more vague, but we cant talk about creativity? Its about versatility of the game in terms of shooting and passing and rim finishing. Ultimately Tatum is a system player fully trained to fit today's way of playing basketball. Butler isn't, he is a swiss knife.

And regressing to the mean was in terms of efficiency. Butler was always more efficient. More creative AND more efficient? Yeah in my book thats better.

[Axe]

Tatum has an impressive resume for a potential contender and will likely become better for the many years to come. Meanwhile, let's not forget that butler is already 33 years old ffs.

[Real Men Wear Green]

If you know you know. We can talk about player IQ the whole time which is even more vague, but we cant talk about creativity? Its about versatility of the game in terms of shooting and passing and rim finishing. Ultimately Tatum is a system player fully trained to fit today's way of playing basketball. Butler isn't, he is a swiss knife.

And regressing to the mean was in terms of efficiency. Butler was always more efficient. More creative AND more efficient? Yeah in my book thats better.

More of the meaningless. What"system" can't use a 6'10 strong athlete that can dribble shoot rebound and defend well enough and vs enough different size players to play sg sf or pf? What possible team design or offense would not value Tatum? And this is suddenly about efficiency? Not a fan of advanced stats myself but FYI Tatum also has a higher PER. You are clinging to this notion of butler's alleged advantage in creativity and no I don’t see it. The only argument you can make is (intentionally?) vague nonsense.

[Full Court]

He shoots 48% from the field. He has some bad games and you can look them up if you're curious but overall he is having a great season.

Tonight's game is exactly what I'm talking about. Everyone has a bad game now and then, but Tatum seems like he has these duds more often than other stars.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Tonight's game is exactly what I'm talking about. Everyone has a bad game now and then, but Tatum seems like he has these duds more often than other stars.

And you have been tracking this or it's just a feeling? The Celtics do still have the best record in the league. Of anything a game like last night makes me wonder if the Warriors are in his head a little bit but it wasn't some kind of historically awful performance. A bad game that featured a bad first quarter.

[Full Court]

And you have been tracking this or it's just a feeling? The Celtics do still have the best record in the league. Of anything a game like last night makes me wonder if the Warriors are in his head a little bit but it wasn't some kind of historically awful performance. A bad game that featured a bad first quarter.

No, I haven't put in the effort to dig up data for comparison to other stars. So just a feeling. But am I wrong that these off nights are kinda frequent?

Celtics are a super deep team, so they're definitely capable of winning most games even if Tatum doesn't show up in regular form.

[Real Men Wear Green]

No, I haven't put in the effort to dig up data for comparison to other stars. So just a feeling. But am I wrong that these off nights are kinda frequent?

Celtics are a super deep team, so they're definitely capable of winning most games even if Tatum doesn't show up in regular form.

He shoot in the high 40s. So for a 25 percent night to be frequent he would also have to have frequent 40 point games hitting 70 percent as well. Not bothering to research it myself but I'm sure neither is true

[PeroAntic]

Just a reminder that Jimmy Butler is a top 5 player and the true MVP of the league. What a player

[SouBeachTalents]

Just a reminder that Jimmy Butler is a top 5 player and the true MVP of the league. What a player
Nah. But we'll see if he can put a scare into Boston or Milwaukee.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Butler is a tough player. MVP? That's not a serious discussion.

[bison]

He has the mamba mentality that’s for sure. Puts the fear in Celtic fans like RFWG.

[PeroAntic]

Butler is a tough player. MVP? That's not a serious discussion.

Why not? Why is he not in the conversation? What is he not doing enough of? Hes a monster of a player in every possible way.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Why not? Why is he not in the conversation? What is he not doing enough of? Hes a monster of a player in every possible way.
Have you ever heard any analyst on TV mention him as mvp? Do you think he will finish in the top 10 of the voting? His team is in the play in he's going to have missed 16 to 18 games and his stats are nowhere near the real mvp candidates. It's not worthy of debate.

[fourkicks44]

Why not? Why is he not in the conversation? What is he not doing enough of? Hes a monster of a player in every possible way.

His team is in the play in, man.

Clearly not an MVP calibre season.

[John8204]

Have you ever heard any analyst on TV mention him as mvp? Do you think he will finish in the top 10 of the voting? His team is in the play in he's going to have missed 16 to 18 games and his stats are nowhere near the real mvp candidates. It's not worthy of debate.

Odds have him in the top ten right now...and looking at All-NBA right now Jokic/Embiid and Giannis/Tatum should only take 1 PF and C spot which means Butler's the top SF in the game.

So MVP is wrong but All-NBA first team seems fair to me.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Odds have him in the top ten right now...and looking at All-NBA right now Jokic/Embiid and Giannis/Tatum should only take 1 PF and C spot which means Butler's the top SF in the game.

So MVP is wrong but All-NBA first team seems fair to me.

https://www.thelines.com/odds/nba-mvp/

That's the only site I could find that went beyond the top 4. Butler is not in the running at all.

AlllNBA first team isn't happening either. AllNBA is just front court and backcourt. I still wouldn't like Butler's chances even if it was pg sg sf pf c but it is not. He might make 3rd team but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't.

[PeroAntic]

Have you ever heard any analyst on TV mention him as mvp? Do you think he will finish in the top 10 of the voting? His team is in the play in he's going to have missed 16 to 18 games and his stats are nowhere near the real mvp candidates. It's not worthy of debate.

This isn't an argument. I don't care what the Skips and Shannons say. Is he MVP level player? Thats the question. And just mentioning his stats brings you close to the dangerous territory of being a casual boxscore watcher.

[PeroAntic]

His team is in the play in, man.

Clearly not an MVP calibre season.

The Heat had crazy amount of injuries this season and they have been conserving their strentgh for the playoffs.

The question is very simple - is he one of the best players in the NBA? I don't know why people beat around the bush by talking about circumstances. The amount of respect Jimmy gets is just disgraceful.

[Real Men Wear Green]

This isn't an argument. I don't care what the Skips and Shannons say. Is he MVP level player? Thats the question. And just mentioning his stats brings you close to the dangerous territory of being a casual boxscore watcher.

You could learn something from casual box score watching. If you did you would know who has an MVP statline and who doesn't. Something like 6 players average 30 points. You personally can think that Butler deservesMVP but you don't have a vote. The actual voters are not seriously considering him, he will not get a single first place vote. I know these things because I casually watch box scores and thus am saved from silly statements.

[fourkicks44]

The Heat had crazy amount of injuries this season and they have been conserving their strentgh for the playoffs.

The question is very simple - is he one of the best players in the NBA? I don't know why people beat around the bush by talking about circumstances. The amount of respect Jimmy gets is just disgraceful.

Yeah but there is a difference between being an MVP level player and being an MVP candidate or having an MVP calibre season.

We all know who Jimmy is and how good he is at his peak but his team has been below standard and he has his own injury issues this season. That alone takes him out of the MVP conversation.

I do however expect him to step it up big time in the playoffs. I actually can't wait to see him stick it to the Celtics, that will be an entertaining watch.

[iamgine]

The Heat had crazy amount of injuries this season and they have been conserving their strentgh for the playoffs.

The question is very simple - is he one of the best players in the NBA? I don't know why people beat around the bush by talking about circumstances. The amount of respect Jimmy gets is just disgraceful.

To me Jimmy's a borderline top 5 player this season. Not MVP level at all but still one of the best players.

[ImKobe]

To me Jimmy's a borderline top 5 player this season. Not MVP level at all but still one of the best players.

He's top 5 in most of the advanced stuff and has played 64 games and is one of the best in the clutch this season. I would say that he's an MVP-level player, considering how little shooting & overall talent the Heat have. Statistically he's better than Tatum & Lebron too, especially if you dig into the advanced metrics. He's 5th in RAPTOR and 4th in EPM. He's 4th in BPM and VORP and 6th in PER.

It shows during games as he's played at a very high level on both ends of the court, bailing the Heat out constantly in crunch time. They have no business even sitting at the 7th spot right now but he's been consistent in big moments all season. This is the best all-around season of his career and he should be 2nd team All-NBA at worst. The raw averages don't look that amazing but the efficiency (~65%TS, just 1.6 TOV) and the clutch play to me makes him an MVP-level player.

[iamgine]

He's top 5 in most of the advanced stuff and has played 64 games and is one of the best in the clutch this season. I would say that he's an MVP-level player, considering how little shooting & overall talent the Heat have. Statistically he's better than Tatum & Lebron too, especially if you dig into the advanced metrics. He's 5th in RAPTOR and 4th in EPM. He's 4th in BPM and VORP and 6th in PER.

It shows during games as he's played at a very high level on both ends of the court, bailing the Heat out constantly in crunch time. They have no business even sitting at the 7th spot right now but he's been consistent in big moments all season. This is the best all-around season of his career and he should be 2nd team All-NBA at worst. The raw averages don't look that amazing but the efficiency (~65%TS, just 1.6 TOV) and the clutch play to me makes him an MVP-level player.

Nah to me MVP level would be the likes of Jokic, Embiid, etc. Butler is a bit below that, more in the Curry range.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Butler being on par with Curry is only thinkable because of all the games Curry missed. Curry has an elite offensive impact that is more important than Butler's edge on defense. Butler is not equal to all time great status.

[iamgine]

Butler being on par with Curry is only thinkable because of all the games Curry missed. Curry has an elite offensive impact that is more important than Butler's edge on defense. Butler is not equal to all time great status.
Butler also has elite offensive impact tho.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Butler also has elite offensive impact tho.

Not like Curry. Curry is comparable to MJ on offense.

[iamgine]

Not like Curry. Curry is comparable to MJ on offense.

In his peak maybe. We're talking about this season.

[Real Men Wear Green]

In his peak maybe. We're talking about this season.

Curry is still averaging 29 points shooting 49% and still the most feared shooter on the planet. He gets teammates open just with his presence, doesn't even have to touch the ball.

[iamgine]

Curry is still averaging 29 points shooting 49% and ski the most geared shooter on the planet. He gets teammates open just with his presence, doesn't even have to touch the ball.

Yeah but comparable to MJ?

[Overdrive]

This isn't an argument. I don't care what the Skips and Shannons say. Is he MVP level player? Thats the question. And just mentioning his stats brings you close to the dangerous territory of being a casual boxscore watcher.

You can also watch games and see who accumulates stats. Yes, ppg means alot in a game that's decided by points. Of course he's a great defender and he had high scoring games aswell, but being able to score day in day out means your team can rely on that.

Where would your cut off be? Great defender but 19ppg is in the same tier as the MVP candidates? 17? 15? 12? Where do you draw the line?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Yeah but comparable to MJ?

Statuette Jean level scoring has historically been 30 or so pog in a goid percentage. I will concede, too you're point, that I suspect MJ average 40 if he played today. But 30 is what we are used to seeing from him. So to go a step lower butler is doing 23ppg and 5 assists. 54% shooting is great but we shouldn't get so high on his efficiency that we ignore he's not doing quite as much overall as the reasonably efficient big scorers.

[PeroAntic]

You can also watch games and see who accumulates stats. Yes, ppg means alot in a game that's decided by points. Of course he's a great defender and he had high scoring games aswell, but being able to score day in day out means your team can rely on that.

Where would your cut off be? Great defender but 19ppg is in the same tier as the MVP candidates? 17? 15? 12? Where do you draw the line?
Is he not able to do that? Of course he is. But instead he helps his team in so many different ways which are not as visible or important to casual viewers.

Its not about drawing an arbitrary line anywhere. Its about looking at how good players are and how much they are on a case by case basis. ppg is nothing but a heuristic for those who don't see the entire picture.

Jimmy is having an MVP level season, hes playing at MVP level quality, and yet media and fans are not giving him his due. Its all about other stars. If Jimmy doesnt get all NBA it will be a travesty. He is in the absolute highest tier of the game.

[Axe]

Jimmy butler already peaked during the 2020 disney bubble, which braindead retards keep on whining is the biggest asterisk in league history.

We've also seen jimmy butler play for a philly superteam in 2019. Which is a trio of him, butler and simmons on the so-called 'warriors of the east'. But they got easily dismantled with a lucky tough shot by kawhi in a g7 buzzer beater bt that also sent embiid crying home.

[ImKobe]

Jimmy butler already peaked during the 2020 disney bubble, which braindead retards keep on whining is the biggest asterisk in league history.

We've also seen jimmy butler play for a philly superteam in 2019. Which is a trio of him, butler and simmons on the so-called 'warriors of the east'. But they got easily dismantled with a lucky tough shot by kawhi in a g7 buzzer beater bt that also sent embiid crying home.

Nah, he peaked in the POs last year and this is the best RS of his career. He was great in the Finals in 2020 but last year he played like a true superstar for an entire Playoff run.

[iamgine]

Yeah we are looking at peak Jimmy right now.

Too bad Miami seems to not have the depth. I still wonder how Duncan Robinson went from one of the best shooter in NBA history to a really bad one. :lol

[imdaman99]

Jimmy is him but I still wonder how a team as talented as the Heat are never a high seed. Sure sure, injuries of course but everyone has them. I think Jimmy would be a perfect championship 2nd option. But there no MJs around, for him to scottie it up with.