I still think Jokic is underrated

[StrongLurk]

Dude is basically Dirk Nowitzki but with elite PG passing abilities added on. Even though he hasn't made a finals yet, he has always been a superstar in the playoffs.

Last three regular seasons averages (170 games).
Jokic: 26.4/12/8.2 with only 3.5 turnovers per game. 32.1 PER, 66 TS%, 12.8 BPM

I understand the league is very offensive friendly now, but the Joker is annihilating everyone on offense. His advanced stats look like prime MJ/Lebron level. If he was a black American and athletic (more exciting playstyle), he'd be in GOAT talks. I still see many people act like Embiid is better than Jokic, which is very odd since Embiid has accomplished less than Joker and is definitely a worse playoff performer.

[tontoz]

Hard to be underrated after winning back to back MVPs. I agree he is a beast though.

[1987_Lakers]

He's having another great season, but I think the fact that he has back to back MVPs, media/fans don't care to discuss him as much anymore.

[StrongLurk]

Hard to be underrated after winning back to back MVPs. I agree he is a beast though.

Underrated among the NBA fan base...he's barely talked about relative to his dominance of the game, similar to how no one talks about Tim Duncan.

[SouBeachTalents]

Hard to be underrated after winning back to back MVPs. I agree he is a beast though.
Yeah, this makes the claim that he's underrated ridiculous :lol It's moreso fans and the media just don't care about him, and the sad reality is that until you win a title, you'll never be considered legitimate in the eyes of the dumbed down, casual NBA fanbase and media.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Jokic's terrible defense hurts the Nuggets in the playoffs. According to the some advanced stats he is one of the 3 best players ever but he has terrible on/off numbers in the playoffs. Guys like Curry and KD are better defenders. I really like Jokic actually he is incredibly entertaining but he isn't much better than Embiid. Maybe very slightly. He is much better offensively but also much worse defensively.

[tontoz]

Jokic's terrible defense hurts the Nuggets in the playoffs. According to the some advanced stats he is one of the 3 best players ever but he has terrible on/off numbers in the playoffs. Guys like Curry and KD are better defenders. I really like Jokic actually he is incredibly entertaining but he isn't much better than Embiid. Maybe very slightly. He is much better offensively but also much worse defensively.


Jokic has a BPM of 9.3 for his career in the playoffs which is elite. He has been dominant in the playoffs and a net positive on defense.

[StrongLurk]

Yeah, this makes the claim that he's underrated ridiculous :lol It's moreso fans and the media just don't care about him, and the sad reality is that until you win a title, you'll never be considered legitimate in the eyes of the dumbed down, casual NBA fanbase and media.

He is underrated among the fan base though...which is my point. He is barely talked about just like Duncan was barely talked about compared to Shaq, Kobe, and even KG.

I'd be willing to bet that the average NBA fan holds someone like Carmelo Anthony in higher regards than Jokic.

[90sgoat]

I still don't understand why he can't get into elite shape. He seems to be gasping for air a lot.

If it legit is because he doesn't want to roid and most stars roid (Giannis, AD), then I understand that.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Jokic has a BPM of 9.3 for his career in the playoffs which is elite. It's not elite. It is the 3rd best all time after Michael Jordan and Lebron James. But even you know that is not an accurate ranking. You know that the guys that initiates offense and do everything on that side but hide/ conserve energy on the defensive side gets overrated by bpm. They average insane stats and they never have enough help. I wonder why?

[tontoz]

It's not elite. It is the 3rd best all time after Michael Jordan and Lebron James. But even you know that is not an accurate ranking. You know that the guys that initiates offense and do everything on that side but hide/ conserve energy on the defensive side gets overrated by bpm. They average insane stats and they never have enough help. I wonder why?


Maybe because their 2nd and 3rd options have been out hurt so often. MPJ has played only 25 games total the last two seasons. Murray hasn't played in the playoffs since the bubble.

Feel free to share the defensive metrics that have Jokic rated so poorly.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic just had TWENTY rebounds in the first half tonight. Currently has 27/24/8...all this in only 32 minutes.

Seriously there has never been a player like Jokic. He is just as unique as a Lebron or Giannis. Really hope this dude gets a ring one day because he is easily one of the best offensive players ever. Basically a Dirk/Bird hybrid.

[SATAN]

There's the triple double. 37/27/10. 30 seconds left.

[FultzNationRISE]

Jokic just had TWENTY rebounds in the first half tonight. Currently has 27/24/8...all this in only 32 minutes.

Seriously there has never been a player like Jokic. He is just as unique as a Lebron or Giannis. Really hope this dude gets a ring one day because he is easily one of the best offensive players ever. Basically a Dirk/Bird hybrid.


While he has three point range, he’s statistically not a sniper out there.


Crazy as it sounds, he might actually be more of a Magic/Kareem hybrid :biggums:

[NuggetsFan]

Honestly it's a shame he'll spend his entire career with the Nuggets. We've dealt with injury issues and in a perfect world where MPJ/Murray get healthy than I think the Nuggets would have done a bang up job but as it stands now he'll never have the support to get a ring. Which means he'll never get the proper attention he deserves. If he was doing what he's doing now in a bigger market I think he'd be getting the LeBron/Kobe etc. push.

He's just an absurd player. You mention how friendly the league is offensively now .. but it's not that way for big men. He manages to be an average/above average defender despite all the switching he has to do. I legitimately don't think there's 15 players that are more talented than Jokic in the history of the game. He can do everything offensively at an elite level. He can bring the ball up the court, pass from the post, create off the bounce, shoot from anywhere, elite in the post, GOAT level touch around the rim. He's in the conversation for the most skilled player of all-time IMO. You give him elite athleticism and there's legitimate talk about him being the GOAT right now.

[NBAGOAT]

Connelly drafts really well but sucks at team building and it’ll cost jokic and looking like it’ll cost the wolves too. They did not need to give porter a max, small stuff like the beasley trade was bad too. Booth did a nice job this offseason with the brown and kcp pickups but Murray is really going have to get hot for the nuggets to match how they looked in 2021 post Gordon trade

[RRR3]

Connelly drafts really well but sucks at team building and it’ll cost jokic and looking like it’ll cost the wolves too. They did not need to give porter a max, small stuff like the beasley trade was bad too. Booth did a nice job this offseason with the brown and kcp pickups but Murray is really going have to get hot for the nuggets to match how they looked in 2021 post Gordon trade
They can win a ring if Murray can get back to his 2021 form (21+ on good efficiency) and MPJ stays healthy and develops a bit more. I really thought Murray would be a 25 PPG scorer by now. Maybe he would have been if he hadn't torn his ACL.

[NBAGOAT]

They can win a ring if Murray can get back to his 2021 form (21+ on good efficiency) and MPJ stays healthy and develops a bit more. I really thought Murray would be a 25 PPG scorer by now. Maybe he would have been if he hadn't torn his ACL.

Yea if that happens I agree though their bench does have issues too.

[StrongLurk]

While he has three point range, he’s statistically not a sniper out there.


Crazy as it sounds, he might actually be more of a Magic/Kareem hybrid :biggums:

He's a damn monster however you want to slice it. He's absolutely a top three player in the NBA these last few years. I can't rank him any lower than 3.

[StrongLurk]

Taking this from Reddit for Jokic.

25/11/9 on 62% — First seed in West — Leads NBA in +/- — Tied 1st in double doubles — Tied 1st in triple doubles — Most APG by a center ever — First ever 25/10/5 season on 60 FG% If you’re curious: yes, he leads the league in PER, WS, BPM and VORP.

We are potentially looking at a GOAT offensive stretch for a Center these last few years. Just a shame that we know the current NBA is easier to play in offensively compared to the last 30 years or so.

[SouBeachTalents]

I didn't even realize he was shooting 62% from the FIELD, that is fcking insane :lol Not even Shaq or Kareem did that.

But as it stands now, in addition to being foreign, Jokic looks like he's going to be the biggest casualty of rangz culture the league has seen. As someone else said, you really can argue, just on peak play, Jokic is a top 15-20 player ever, but he will sadly never be remembered that way without any titles.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I didn't even realize he was shooting 62% from the FIELD, that is fcking insane :lol Not even Shaq or Kareem did that.

But as it stands now, in addition to being foreign, Jokic looks like he's going to be the biggest casualty of rangz culture the league has seen. As someone else said, you really can argue, just on peak play, Jokic is a top 15-20 player ever, but he will sadly never be remembered that way without any titles.

He will easily be remembered as top 20. Guys like Barkley and Malone routinely fall in that 15-20 range and Jokic has peaked higher than both.

[hold this L]

3rd best player in the league. An absolute beast of a player and might be the best passing big in NBA history already at this point. :applause:

[RRR3]

3rd best player in the league. An absolute beast of a player and might be the best passing big in NBA history already at this point. :applause:
3rd lol. Jokic would have the Warriors way above .500. Fuming.

[hold this L]

3rd lol. Jokic would have the Warriors way above .500. Fuming.

https://i.gifer.com/origin/43/43c05dcd56610f2e5fdf3d79533ea2b7_w200.webp

[RRR3]

https://i.gifer.com/origin/43/43c05dcd56610f2e5fdf3d79533ea2b7_w200.webp
All the impact stats you jerk off to have him clearly over your hero. Accept that your boys been surpassed.

[Axe]

Taking this from Reddit for Jokic.

25/11/9 on 62% — First seed in West — Leads NBA in +/- — Tied 1st in double doubles — Tied 1st in triple doubles — Most APG by a center ever — First ever 25/10/5 season on 60 FG% If you’re curious: yes, he leads the league in PER, WS, BPM and VORP.

We are potentially looking at a GOAT offensive stretch for a Center these last few years. Just a shame that we know the current NBA is easier to play in offensively compared to the last 30 years or so.
Even more amazing is the fact that he was the 41st pick in the league almost a decade ago. His improvement over the years has been nothing short of outstanding.

[hold this L]

All the impact stats you jerk off to have him clearly over your hero. Accept that your boys been surpassed.
https://data.zouqicq.com/images/news/220617/u536hg4p4w.gif


Kiss the ring babyboi, still fresh.

[RRR3]

https://data.zouqicq.com/images/news/220617/u536hg4p4w.gif


Kiss the ring babyboi, still fresh.
Kawhi was the best player in the league in 2015 by this logic. Jokic’s best teammate the last two years has been Aaron Gordon :oldlol:

[tontoz]

Kawhi was the best player in the league in 2015 by this logic. Jokic’s best teammate the last two years has been Aaron Gordon :oldlol:

So a guy who averaged 16 ppg and got eliminated in the first round was the best player in the league in 2015?

:facepalm

[RRR3]

So a guy who averaged 16 ppg and got eliminated in the first round was the best player in the league in 2015?

:facepalm
Can you read? I said by the logic he was using. All the data says Jokic is the best player right now he’s just furious it doesn’t say his crush is.

[tontoz]

Can you read? I said by the logic he was using. All the data says Jokic is the best player right now he’s just furious it doesn’t say his crush is.


There is no logic comparing Kawhi in 2015 to Curry now. Curry was 5th on MVP ladder before he got hurt in spite of their bad record

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-nov-25-2022-edition



not to mention that that he averaged 31 ppg in the finals against an elite defense (Kawhi only averaged 17.8). Curry was also MVP finalist in 2021. Kawhi was just a role player.

As far a Jokic goes he has won two straight MVPs so there is no question he is elite. His advanced numbers have been sick basically ever since he lost weight.

[RRR3]

There is no logic comparing Kawhi in 2015 to Curry now. Curry was 5th on MVP ladder before he got hurt in spite of their bad record

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-nov-25-2022-edition



not to mention that that he averaged 31 ppg in the finals against an elite defense (Kawhi only averaged 17.8). Curry was also MVP finalist in 2021. Kawhi was just a role player.
You’re apparently too dense to get that I meant the best player on the team that won the previous year isn’t automatically the best player. It’s simpleminded logic. Jokic is by all measures the best player right now.

[tontoz]

You’re apparently too dense to get that I meant the best player on the team that won the previous year isn’t automatically the best player. It’s simpleminded logic. Jokic is by all measures the best player right now.


That isn't a valid comparison because Kawhi was just a role player at that time. He averaged only 12.8 ppg the year he won his first title. Not even remotely comparable to Curry who has 2 MVPs and was in the MVP race before he got hurt.

Do better

[RRR3]

That isn't a valid comparison because Kawhi was just a role player at that time. He averaged only 12.8 ppg the year he won his first title. Not even remotely comparable to Curry who has 2 MVPs and was in the MVP race before he got hurt.

Do better
Make an argument for Curry being better than Jokic currently besides RANGZZZZZZZ DOEEEE and I will.

[tontoz]

Make an argument for Curry being better than Jokic currently besides RANGZZZZZZZ DOEEEE and I will.

I never said Curry was better than Jokic. I just think your Kawhi comparison was dumb.

If you want to argue Jokic is better than Curry you should be able to do it without making a dumb comparison like that. You shouldn't need to bring up another player at all.

[RRR3]

I never said Curry was better than Jokic. I just think your Kawhi comparison was dumb.

If you want to argue Jokic is better than Curry you should be able to do it without making a dumb comparison like that. You shouldn't need to bring up another player at all.
Except I already did I said he had better impact stats. HoldthisL responded with RANGZZZZ DOE but you of course took his side because Curry gives your private parts the shivers.

[tontoz]

Except I already did I said he had better impact stats. HoldthisL responded with RANGZZZZ DOE but you of course took his side because Curry gives your private parts the shivers.

I think you misread his meaning. When you went into your typical "fuming" nonsense that is when he brought up the ring. I don't think he is too upset about anything after his team just won another title. He didn't even say who he feels the current top two players are.

Your lame fall back "fuming...seething...meltdown" nonsense is just lazy.

[Axe]

There is no logic comparing Kawhi in 2015 to Curry now. Curry was 5th on MVP ladder before he got hurt in spite of their bad record

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-nov-25-2022-edition



not to mention that that he averaged 31 ppg in the finals against an elite defense (Kawhi only averaged 17.8). Curry was also MVP finalist in 2021. Kawhi was just a role player.
Not enough (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?379867-Finals-MVP-Alpha-Male-Curry-Appreciation-Thread) for him to win a finals mvp until last season tho. :ohwell:

[tontoz]

Not enough (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?379867-Finals-MVP-Alpha-Male-Curry-Appreciation-Thread) for him to win a finals mvp until last season tho. :ohwell:


Shouldn't you be busy flirting with your boyfriends Full Court and Baller?

[Axe]

Come on, uncle. Now isn't the time for such nonsense. :(

[tontoz]

Come on, uncle. Now isn't the time for such nonsense. :(


That's never stopped you before :oldlol:

[BigShotBob]

He's kind of overrated actually. Love his game from time to time but he did get outplayed by CJ Mccollum in a game 7 at home when Dame played like absolute dogshit. Hard to let that one go.

[SouBeachTalents]

He's kind of overrated actually. Love his game from time to time but he did get outplayed by CJ Mccollum in a game 7 at home when Dame played like absolute dogshit. Hard to let that one go.
What kinda bullshit argument is this :lol Using a literal ONE game sample size, from two years before he hit his peak? What an incredibly dumb take.

[StrongLurk]

What kinda bullshit argument is this :lol Using a literal ONE game sample size, from two years before he hit his peak? What an incredibly dumb take.

Posts like his are common for some reason. Just proves my point even more. Was someone like Barkley (top 20 player of all time in a lot of people's minds) ever as good as Jokic has been these last 2-3 years? I say no.

[Axe]

Posts like his are common for some reason. Just proves my point even more. Was someone like Barkley (top 20 player of all time in a lot of people's minds) ever as good as Jokic has been these last 2-3 years? I say no.
Only goes to show how much the league has vastly improved since the jurassic 90s days. What's more, it's an international player being significant like this. Something a bit rare in the past eras.

[tontoz]

Make no mistake Barkley was a beast. He actually led the league in TS four straight years while averaging 25+ ppg. He was also one of the league leaders in rebounds.

He was a good playmaker too but not on Jokic level. He was also a freak athlete, nasty on the break and a bully inside

[RRR3]

Make no mistake Barkley was a beast. He actually led the league in TS four straight years while averaging 25+ ppg. He was also one of the league leaders in rebounds.

He was a good playmaker too but not on Jokic level. He was also a freak athlete, nasty on the break and a bully inside
Thanks for the little known fact, none of us knew this.

[Manny98]

Best passer ever

Best offensive big man ever

Making a case for his 3rd straight MVP (between him and KD right now)

Although I'd like to see him do more in the postseason

[tontoz]

Thanks for the little known fact, none of us knew this.



Seething

[Axe]

Seething
:roll:

[StrongLurk]

41/15/15

Honestly guys like Garnett and Barkley can't touch the Joker. This guy is reaching for the best big men of all time.

[csh19792001]

41/15/15

Honestly guys like Garnett and Barkley can't touch the Joker. This guy is reaching for the best big men of all time.

Yes he is heading for GOAT Center Status. Last 3 seasons, including playoffs: 190 games: 26.8/12.1/8.1 on .576 shooting. +7.4 relative true shooting. Insane volume with insane efficiency. Best passing center ever, and it's not even remotely close.

Last three seasons, he's been dominating the NBA like no other Center since Wilt Chamberlain.

Third 41/15/15 game in NBA History. Only Harden and Oscar did that.

The 40/27/10 game? Hasn't been done since Wilt himself, 3/18/68.

[Jasper]

last night Richard Jefferson stated that with Jokic Denver is a top team in the west.
When he sits on the bench Denver is rated like 30th in offense.:banghead:

[StrongLurk]

Yes he is heading for GOAT Center Status. Last 3 seasons, including playoffs: 190 games: 26.8/12.1/8.1 on .576 shooting. +7.4 relative true shooting. Insane volume with insane efficiency. Best passing center ever, and it's not even remotely close.

Last three seasons, he's been dominating the NBA like no other Center since Wilt Chamberlain.

Third 41/15/15 game in NBA History. Only Harden and Oscar did that.

The 40/27/10 game? Hasn't been done since Wilt himself, 3/18/68.

I posted similar stats earlier in this thread. Jokic is straight up the best offensive player in the league and by a decent margin.

[Im Still Ballin]

last night Richard Jefferson stated that with Jokic Denver is a top team in the west.
When he sits on the bench Denver is rated like 30th in offense.:banghead:

:O

[StrongLurk]

Bump

[StrongLurk]

Yep...still underrated.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic up to 25/12/10 on 63/40/82 splits...70.3 TS% :roll:

Best all around offensive player in the league.

[Real Men Wear Green]

He is likely about to become a three time mvp. This topic is like saying Warren Buffet is poor.

[StrongLurk]

He is likely about to become a three time mvp. This topic is like saying Warren Buffet is poor.

The majority of the NBA fanbase do not think Jokic is a top 5 player in the league. He is constantly disrespected when I see conversations about him on various platforms/media.

If he was a black American and athletic, he'd be getting GOAT talks.

[AlternativeAcc.]

The majority of the NBA fanbase do not think Jokic is a top 5 player in the league. He is constantly disrespected when I see conversations about him on various platforms/media.

If he was a black American and athletic, he'd be getting GOAT talks.
Yeah if Towns was doing the exact same thing Joker is doing, he'd be a far more respected and popular athlete. Obviously the MVP voters know they can't not give him MVP, but the MVPs themselves build contempt from the general public because they think winning rings is the be all end all while ignoring context. He'd get far less disrespect tho if he was black. Perkins certainly wouldn't be crying on air about racism.

[StrongLurk]

Yeah if Towns was doing the exact same thing Joker is doing, he'd be a far more respected and popular athlete. Obviously the MVP voters know they can't not give him MVP, but the MVPs themselves build contempt from the general public because they think winning rings is the be all end all while ignoring context. He'd get far less disrespect tho if he was black. Perkins certainly wouldn't be crying on air about racism.

Exactly. Jokic is basically the complete opposite of mainstream NBA fandom/culture. He won't get fans from the basic fanbase unless he wins a ring. Even then, he won't receive the normal hype. Shit the average NBA fan probably thinks Derek Rose on the Bulls was better than Jokic ever was.

[Real Men Wear Green]

The majority of the NBA fanbase do not think Jokic is a top 5 player in the league. He is constantly disrespected when I see conversations about him on various platforms/media.

If he was a black American and athletic, he'd be getting GOAT talks.
Is Kevin Durant a 3 time mvp? No?
Oh wait only guy like that in the league today is James. The idea that a guy about to get the MVP award for a third year in a row is somehow the victim of discrimination... you realize you're a ****ing idiot, right?

[RRR3]

The majority of the NBA fanbase do not think Jokic is a top 5 player in the league. He is constantly disrespected when I see conversations about him on various platforms/media.

If he was a black American and athletic, he'd be getting GOAT talks.
Yes, poor white people get no respect :roll: :facepalm


It’s cause he’s not flashy. Luka is white and clearly worse but gets more respect for being flashy.

[FultzNationRISE]

Yes, poor white people get no respect :roll: :facepalm


It’s cause he’s not flashy. Luka is white and clearly worse but gets more respect for being flashy.


We need look no further than you for proof.

[StrongLurk]

Is Kevin Durant a 3 time mvp? No?
Oh wait only guy like that in the league today is James. The idea that a guy about to get the MVP award for a third year in a row is somehow the victim of discrimination... you realize you're a ****ing idiot, right?

Why are struggling with what I am saying? Did I ever say the MVP VOTERS are underrating Jokic? No I did not.

I am saying the NBA fandom/masses are underrating Jokic for a few on-court and off-court reasons.

If fans were voting then Jokic wouldn't come close to MVP.

[SouBeachTalents]

Why are struggling with what I am saying? Did I ever say the MVP VOTERS are underrating Jokic? No I did not.

I am saying the NBA fandom/masses are underrating Jokic for a few on-court and off-court reasons.

If fans were voting then Jokic wouldn't come close to MVP.
If fans voted Kobe would have 5 MVP’s, while Iverson might have 2-3.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Why are struggling with what I am saying? Did I ever say the MVP VOTERS are underrating Jokic? No I did not.

I am saying the NBA fandom/masses are underrating Jokic for a few on-court and off-court reasons.

If fans were voting then Jokic wouldn't come close to MVP.

No one is failing to understand you. You are claiming without any evidence whatsoever that NBA fans-- who are mainly white-- are discriminating against Jokic. Because he is white. You are an idiot.

[RRR3]

No one is failing to understand you. You are claiming without any evidence whatsoever that NBA fans-- who are mainly white-- are discriminating against Jokic. Because he is white. You are an idiot.
:lol

[StrongLurk]

No one is failing to understand you. You are claiming without any evidence whatsoever that NBA fans-- who are mainly white-- are discriminating against Jokic. Because he is white. You are an idiot.

You are being obtuse. I am not going to find and post everything I read about Jokic from social media sites. Anyone who reads basketball should be seeing the same general trend of underrating and disrespecting Jokic.

Also I am not claiming Jokic is being discriminated because he is white...it's because he is not American, secondarily not a black American, and third he is unathletic. Jokic also doesn't fit the NBA culture AT ALL. This is why he is underrated (maybe I should say underappreciated?). Someone like Giannis would be way more hyped if he was an American as well...but a ton of people still refer to him as "run and dunk".

Seriously, you and RRR3 look dumb trying to paint me as some right-wing white person trying to claim generic "racism". What I'm claiming is much more nuanced and honestly factual.

[bizil]

Here's the thing... Some superstar level players AREN'T going to be one of the faces of the league marketed to the masses. You gotta have a certain IT FACTOR for that. In today's league, its guys like Bron, Steph, Giannis, KD, Luka, etc. Joker as great as he is will get slept on by the casual fanbase. EVEN THOUGH he's about to likely win a 3rd MVP. And is known as the best offensive center ever when u combine passing and scoring. Plus he's the king of triple doubles among centers.

The media overall gives him his props. So he catches NO BS NARRATIVES from the media. He's just not a SUPERSTAR the league will lean on to market the game. He's not the COMBO of superstar on the court AND ROCK STAR the league relies on to market to casuals. Duncan has similar issues back in the day. BUT his championship success superceded it. And he is the GOAT PF. So since he was in the Finals all the time (the time when casuals REALLY LOCK INTO THE LEAGUE), he became a household name to them even. And the league HAD TO COME AROUND because the Spurs were a dynasty.

BUT if you don't have those things going for you PLUS don't play in a huge media market, superstars like a Jokic will be UNDER THE RADAR to the casual fanbase. EVEN THOUGH he's a top 6 caliber center ever peak-prime wise. And when you look at the top 10 centers GOAT wise, literally ALL OF THEM were one of the faces of the league. I'm talking Cap, Wilt, Russ, Shaq, Hakeem, David, and Ewing for example. GOAT wise, Joker is gonna be on that level. But IT FACTOR wise, he's not somebody the league is gonna market to casuals.

If he pulls a Duncan and wins SO MUCH that it supercedes the lack of IT FACTOR, AMONG CASUALS Joker will get his just due. BUT if you know the game, you know Joker is an all time great! And THAT's MORE IMPORTANT! If you want superstars who get DENIED their rightful place in history throughout the years, look at guys like Nique, McAdoo, English, Dantley, etc. All of them got labeled unfairly by the media OR their career took an unusual path at some point.

Or underrated guys who were never All Stars like a Rod Strickland, Byron Scott, etc. Joker DOESN'T have those issues! When it comes to the all time great PF's, Bob P's name NEVER comes up anymore. YET his peers like West, Oscar, Baylor, Wilt, and Russell STILL get mentioned to this day. Bob was the GOAT PF UNTIL the Mailman and Barkley got rolling. That's A LONG ASS TIME that he was the king of his position! Dr. J gets his props for being WAY AHEAD of his time being a freak athletic scoring machine that played about the rim. YET David Thompson's name doesn't get brought up enough. He was THE GUY to bring freak athletic ability to the backcourt. Just like Doc, he was WAY AHEAD OF HIS TIME! Their rivalry was like the MJ-Nique rivalry of that time period!

[Real Men Wear Green]

You are being obtuse. I am not going to find and post everything I read about Jokic from social media sites. Anyone who reads basketball should be seeing the same general trend of underrating and disrespecting Jokic.

Also I am not claiming Jokic is being discriminated because he is white...it's because he is not American, secondarily not a black American, and third he is unathletic. Jokic also doesn't fit the NBA culture AT ALL. This is why he is underrated (maybe I should say underappreciated?). Someone like Giannis would be way more hyped if he was an American as well...but a ton of people still refer to him as "run and dunk".

Seriously, you and RRR3 look dumb trying to paint me as some right-wing white person trying to claim generic "racism". What I'm claiming is much more nuanced and honestly factual.

You are saying that a soon to be 3peat mvp is underrated because white people don't appreciate a white person.

You are an idiot.

[bizil]

For those saying Jokic is getting discriminated against because he's European that's BS!!! Because Luka is one of the faces of the league. And has the IT FACTOR to draw in casual fans. So the league markets that! Once again, the league LEANS ON a group of 6-8 guys to be the faces of the league. If a player plays in a major media market, that's even better. Hell even though Kawhi has won a couple of rings, he's still NOT A DRAW truly for the casual fanbase. You can look at ANY SPORT and the same applies!

[Celtics 1825]

Dude is already being touted as a potential top 5 center of all time and you're saying he's underrated?!

[StrongLurk]

You are saying that a soon to be 3peat mvp is underrated because white people don't appreciate a white person.

You are an idiot.

You struggle with reading comprehension. Let me post the same thing again - it's because he is not American, secondarily not a black American, and third he is unathletic. Jokic also doesn't fit the NBA player culture AT ALL.

Here is a good example - Jokic, the potential b2b2b MVP - is not even top 15 in Jersey sales. Maybe that's an easy fact for you to understand to show that he is underappreciated by the NBA fan base. Also Jokic does not "fit in" with the average NBA player as well...he just has a way different background (dude might like messing around with horses more than basketball).

[hold this L]

What do shirt sales have to do with him being underrated? He's not popular sure, but many NBA fans and analysts realize he's one of the best players in the league.

[StrongLurk]

What do shirt sales have to do with him being underrated? He's not popular sure, but many NBA fans and analysts realize he's one of the best players in the league.

Him not being popular automatically underrates him among the masses of NBA fans. Why do you think a ton of people have Kobe Bryant as the second best player of all time? It's because of his insane popularity. People like us know Kobe is not even top five all time. Sure the basketball media and people like us know how good Jokic is, but he is getting MAJOR hate from the average NBA fan because they don't think he deserves three MVPS and a lot of people think he didn't even deserve two.

[StrongLurk]

Now we got Perk actively being racist on national television regarding Jokic. Shit is sad.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic is GOATED. Best offensive player in the league for me and easily one of the best all time.

Dude has been a superstar every playoff run unlike the Sixers center.

[bdonovan]

Because Jokic lacks the footwork, athletic build, finesse, talent/moves that many top offensive centers have had, his game depends on a few things: craftiness, precise shooting, and using his body to create distance from the defender. On the latter, Jokic depends on white refs to let him get away with ALOT of physical contact that would likely be called as a foul were he not white. I'd say that accounts for about 1/3rd of his game. He is still a great player but not an all-time great player because he is getting a major handout from the refs, which makes up for his lack of offensive skill.

I still admire his passing ability and versatility on the offensive end. Too slow to be an effective rim protector and defensive presence.

[DMAVS41]

Because Jokic lacks the footwork, athletic build, finesse, talent/moves that many top offensive centers have had, his game depends on a few things: craftiness, precise shooting, and using his body to create distance from the defender. On the latter, Jokic depends on white refs to let him get away with ALOT of physical contact that would likely be called as a foul were he not white. I'd say that accounts for about 1/3rd of his game. He is still a great player but not an all-time great player because he is getting a major handout from the refs, which makes up for his lack of offensive skill.

I still admire his passing ability and versatility on the offensive end. Too slow to be an effective rim protector and defensive presence.

He is absolutely an all-time great player. Beyond absurd to claim he isn't. He's going to walk into the hall if he retired right this moment.

[SouBeachTalents]

Because Jokic lacks the footwork, athletic build, finesse, talent/moves that many top offensive centers have had, his game depends on a few things: craftiness, precise shooting, and using his body to create distance from the defender. On the latter, Jokic depends on white refs to let him get away with ALOT of physical contact that would likely be called as a foul were he not white. I'd say that accounts for about 1/3rd of his game. He is still a great player but not an all-time great player because he is getting a major handout from the refs, which makes up for his lack of offensive skill.

I still admire his passing ability and versatility on the offensive end. Too slow to be an effective rim protector and defensive presence.
Shut up fakkit

[ShawkFactory]

Because Jokic lacks the footwork, athletic build, finesse, talent/moves that many top offensive centers have had, his game depends on a few things: craftiness, precise shooting, and using his body to create distance from the defender. On the latter, Jokic depends on white refs to let him get away with ALOT of physical contact that would likely be called as a foul were he not white. I'd say that accounts for about 1/3rd of his game. He is still a great player but not an all-time great player because he is getting a major handout from the refs, which makes up for his lack of offensive skill.

I still admire his passing ability and versatility on the offensive end. Too slow to be an effective rim protector and defensive presence.

This is one of the most bizarre and off-base posts I've seen.

[RRR3]

Bdumbnavan makes up negative things about every player besides his hero Curry. He also claims Durant is a negative impact player.

[bdonovan]

Bdumbnavan makes up negative things about every player besides his hero Curry. He also claims Durant is a negative impact player.

Tell me where I made something up.

He has not put the time in the gym to develop strong muscle tone nor top conditioning.

His footwork is nothing compared to Hakeem or Tim Duncan; oftentimes he turns in circles and very clearly moves his pivot foot but is never called for traveling.

His defense is subpar and he's not a rim protector like a lot of the All Time Great centers who were excellent two way players.

He is not fast and has slow reflexes.

He lacks a go-to shot like Kareem's hook shot or Ewing's fade away. A lot of his baskets come from knocking the defender backwards, not beating them to the position because he lacks the speed of a Hakeem or even a Shaquille O'neal.

I said he was a great player not all time great, but that's clearly enough for people to lose their mind.

[ShawkFactory]

Tell me where I made something up.

He has not put the time in the gym to develop strong muscle tone nor top conditioning.

His footwork is nothing compared to Hakeem or Tim Duncan; oftentimes he turns in circles and very clearly moves his pivot foot but is never called for traveling.

His defense is subpar and he's not a rim protector like a lot of the All Time Great centers who were excellent two way players.

He is not fast and has slow reflexes.

He lacks a go-to shot like Kareem's hook shot or Ewing's fade away. A lot of his baskets come from knocking the defender backwards, not beating them to the position because he lacks the speed of a Hakeem or even a Shaquille O'neal.

I said he was a great player not all time great, but that's clearly enough for people to lose their mind.

Because he plays the game differently than the standard of the position doesn't mean as much to me. He has incredible touch around the basket with both hands, is one of the best shooters the position has ever seen, and is certainly the best passer. On top of that he has the IQ to know when and where to attack and get himself and his teammates in the best position possible.

You're talking purely about the bag (which Jokic is not lacking) and ignoring the big picture of what his play does during a game.

[RRR3]

Tell me where I made something up.

He has not put the time in the gym to develop strong muscle tone nor top conditioning.

His footwork is nothing compared to Hakeem or Tim Duncan; oftentimes he turns in circles and very clearly moves his pivot foot but is never called for traveling.

His defense is subpar and he's not a rim protector like a lot of the All Time Great centers who were excellent two way players.

He is not fast and has slow reflexes.

He lacks a go-to shot like Kareem's hook shot or Ewing's fade away. A lot of his baskets come from knocking the defender backwards, not beating them to the position because he lacks the speed of a Hakeem or even a Shaquille O'neal.

I said he was a great player not all time great, but that's clearly enough for people to lose their mind.
You said Jokic lacks footwork, moves and finesse which no one who’s ever watched him play would say unless they were seething with rage the whole time they watched him. Reminds me of LeBron haters saying he can’t post up.

[bdonovan]

Because he plays the game differently than the standard of the position doesn't mean as much to me. He has incredible touch around the basket with both hands, is one of the best shooters the position has ever seen, and is certainly the best passer. On top of that he has the IQ to know when and where to attack and get himself and his teammates in the best position possible.

You're talking purely about the bag (which Jokic is not lacking) and ignoring the big picture of what his play does during a game.

I agree with that. He does make his teammates better which is a major plus and puts him above stars who simply score.

However, it seems people completely ignore his weaknesses when talking about him. I really wonder whether the Nuggets can with Jokic as their lead and it's not a "more help" thing; if he cant' win it all, with the pieces he has around him, I doubt he is an all-time great.

[bdonovan]

You said Jokic lacks footwork, moves and finesse which no one who’s ever watched him play would say unless they were seething with rage the whole time they watched him. Reminds me of LeBron haters saying he can’t post up.

Maybe I need to watch more games with him but the ones I've seen, I don't know that I would classify it that way. He creates separation with his size, and then is quick to get a shot off. He uses intelligence and timing more than practiced skill or athleticism that comes from physical training. When I say he lacks those 3 things above, compare him to videos of Hakeem Olajuwon some time.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic is Dirk/Bird/Nash all in one.

[ArbitraryWater]

Jokic is Dirk/Bird/Nash all in one.

and Shaq.

The way he bullies opponents with his size and backs them down is very Shaq like.


Its crazy to think a player would be reminiscent of both Nash and Shaq. And everything in between, like Dirk.

Guy is a unicorn.

[StrongLurk]

and Shaq.

The way he bullies opponents with his size and backs them down is very Shaq like.


Its crazy to think a player would be reminiscent of both Nash and Shaq. And everything in between, like Dirk.

Guy is a unicorn.

I want to include this part of my OP from December.

"I still see many people act like Embiid is better than Jokic, which is very odd since Embiid has accomplished less than Joker and is definitely a worse playoff performer."

This was STILL true even during the 1st round of the playoffs.

Embiid's playoff career is littered with injuries, mental chokes, and underperformances. Meanwhile Jokic has been a superstar pretty much always in the playoffs.

If Embiid loses game 7 against the Celtics, then hopefully any talk of Embiid>Jokic will stop.

[StrongLurk]

I want to include this part of my OP from December.

"I still see many people act like Embiid is better than Jokic, which is very odd since Embiid has accomplished less than Joker and is definitely a worse playoff performer."

This was STILL true even during the 1st round of the playoffs.

Embiid's playoff career is littered with injuries, mental chokes, and underperformances. Meanwhile Jokic has been a superstar pretty much always in the playoffs.

If Embiid loses game 7 against the Celtics, then hopefully any talk of Embiid>Jokic will stop.

Quick bump from two days ago.

Not surprised at all that Embiid stunk up game 7.

Jokic and Giannis are clearly ahead of Embiid until Embiid can physically and mentally play like a superstar in the playoffs.

[StrongLurk]

One more W until he gets to his first finals. Really hope he wins a ring this year and shuts up all the media/fan morons. Jokic is the most skilled player of all time.

[Duffy Pratt]

As I understand it, the thinking is as follows: He has a vertical leap of somewhere between 5-10”. Therefore, he must be bad at basketball. Don’t believe all those other things that might indicate otherwise.

[StrongLurk]

:rockon:

[StrongLurk]

Dude is basically Dirk Nowitzki but with elite PG passing abilities added on. Even though he hasn't made a finals yet, he has always been a superstar in the playoffs.

Last three regular seasons averages (170 games).
Jokic: 26.4/12/8.2 with only 3.5 turnovers per game. 32.1 PER, 66 TS%, 12.8 BPM

I understand the league is very offensive friendly now, but the Joker is annihilating everyone on offense. His advanced stats look like prime MJ/Lebron level. If he was a black American and athletic (more exciting playstyle), he'd be in GOAT talks. I still see many people act like Embiid is better than Jokic, which is very odd since Embiid has accomplished less than Joker and is definitely a worse playoff performer.

OP is dead on.

There are STILL tons of people not willing to say Jokic is the best player in the league...it's insane.

Not only has he been the best player for the last three years, but is easily peaking as one of the best offensive players of all time.

When have we had a player who is an elite scorer from every spot on the floor AND the best passer in the league?

[elementally morale]

Not only has he been the best player for the last three years, but is easily peaking as one of the best offensive players of all time.


I think he is not at his peak yet. Doesn't rely much on jumping and speed so his peak may be when he is 30-33. He is in his prime and has been for the last 2-3 years but I think he still has a gear in him. Like the last game, aka game 3 vs. the Heat. He can constantly play that way in the playoffs. He was visibly better than is games 1 and 2. If he starts the game with rebounding aggresseively and with a chip on his shoulder, wanting to take over like he did in all game 3, he is bound to have some even better performances.

[90sgoat]

I think he is not at his peak yet. Doesn't rely much on jumping and speed so his peak may be when he is 30-33. He is in his prime and has been for the last 2-3 years but I think he still has a gear in him. Like the last game, aka game 3 vs. the Heat. He can constantly play that way in the playoffs. He was visibly better than is games 1 and 2. If he starts the game with rebounding aggresseively and with a chip on his shoulder, wanting to take over like he did in all game 3, he is bound to have some even better performances.

I don't see him getting better physically, but with even more experience, he should get better defensively and better from 3.

He doesn't really need to get better either. This postseason he dominated AD in their head to head as well. The only thing that remains to be seen is how he would do against another big center such as Embiid, but that's basically it. Who else can stop Jokic with a halfway competent team?

[elementally morale]

I don't see him getting better physically, but with even more experience, he should get better defensively and better from 3.

He doesn't really need to get better either. This postseason he dominated AD in their head to head as well. The only thing that remains to be seen is how he would do against another big center such as Embiid, but that's basically it. Who else can stop Jokic with a halfway competent team?

He doesn't need to get better. All I was saying is that I can imagine him becoming even better. Nash became better over 30. Not physically but as a player. One can argue that Kobe became better despite being less athletic at aroind the age of 30. Dirk was at his best as a 32-33 year-old. The way Jokic plays he can improve in some areas, one of them being looking to attack the basket more just like he did this last game. We shall see,

[Akeem34TheDream]

Jokic's terrible defense hurts the Nuggets in the playoffs. According to the some advanced stats he is one of the 3 best players ever but he has terrible on/off numbers in the playoffs. Guys like Curry and KD are better defenders. I really like Jokic actually he is incredibly entertaining but he isn't much better than Embiid. Maybe very slightly. He is much better offensively but also much worse defensively.

OOOF okay this post aged terribly and i know that his supporting cast was terrible in the last 2 playoffs but the way they got swept against the Suns was so terrible. Chris Paul pretty much exposed him in that series. Seriously go watch it. But the Nuggets and Jokic got much better obviously. I have heard someone say those 2 playoff experiences made him a better player because he became a more aggressive scorer and i agree with that. Also Jokic and Murray compliment each other beautifully. I just regret the Embiid part, i feel like he played even worse in recent playoffs.

[StrongLurk]

OOOF okay this post aged terribly and i know that his supporting cast was terrible in the last 2 playoffs but the way they got swept against the Suns was so terrible. Chris Paul pretty much exposed him in that series. Seriously go watch it. But the Nuggets and Jokic got much better obviously. I have heard someone say those 2 playoff experiences made him a better player because he became a more aggressive scorer and i agree with that. Also Jokic and Murray compliment each other beautifully. I just regret the Embiid part, i feel like he played even worse in recent playoffs.

Embiid literally never had an argument as being better than Jokic.

Even when people were trying to tear down Jokic during this season by saying he "hasn't done anything in the playoffs" (which is ignorant and a lie), he's literally gone further in the playoffs then Embiid ever has. So even that argument was complete bullshit.

People are simply mad that Jokic has proven them ignorant.

[StrongLurk]

First 3 finals games for Jokic.

33/14/9 on 59/44/86 splits. If he keeps this up and wins a ring, it might be the best "debut" finals performance since MJ in 91.

Seriously hoping Denver wins this ring so all the dumbasses can shut up about Jokic.

[Micku]

First 3 finals games for Jokic.

33/14/9 on 59/44/86 splits. If he keeps this up and wins a ring, it might be the best "debut" finals performance since MJ in 91.

Seriously hoping Denver wins this ring so all the dumbasses can shut up about Jokic.

Giannis was great too. I think it's him, Jokic, and MJ in terms of best debut since 1990.

But Jokic got some crazy stats. Dude is averaging a 30pt triple-double in the playoffs. All the way to the finals. Insane.

[90sgoat]

OOOF okay this post aged terribly and i know that his supporting cast was terrible in the last 2 playoffs but the way they got swept against the Suns was so terrible. Chris Paul pretty much exposed him in that series. Seriously go watch it. But the Nuggets and Jokic got much better obviously. I have heard someone say those 2 playoff experiences made him a better player because he became a more aggressive scorer and i agree with that. Also Jokic and Murray compliment each other beautifully. I just regret the Embiid part, i feel like he played even worse in recent playoffs.

On/off is a terrible stat to use, because it highly overrates starters on good teams or good benches on bad teams.

[StrongLurk]

Still can't believe this guy had so many haters.

Just goes to show the NBA fan base is casual and dumb as hell.

[StrongLurk]

He is underrated among the fan base though...which is my point. He is barely talked about just like Duncan was barely talked about compared to Shaq, Kobe, and even KG.

I'd be willing to bet that the average NBA fan holds someone like Carmelo Anthony in higher regards than Jokic.

God damn I made so many good posts in this thread. Bolding this one for sure since I called it early. So many Jokic haters/casuals literally JUST realized this postseason Jokic took Carmelo's Denver number (15). I saw a ton of comments saying the Nugs should've never allowed Jokic to wear Carmelo's number and Carmelo is a better basketball player...

[StrongLurk]

Jokic just had TWENTY rebounds in the first half tonight. Currently has 27/24/8...all this in only 32 minutes.

Seriously there has never been a player like Jokic. He is just as unique as a Lebron or Giannis. Really hope this dude gets a ring one day because he is easily one of the best offensive players ever. Basically a Dirk/Bird hybrid.

Bolded

[StrongLurk]

Jokic is GOATED. Best offensive player in the league for me and easily one of the best all time.

Dude has been a superstar every playoff run unlike the Sixers center.

:lol

I don't have a single wrong post in this thread.

[SouBeachTalents]

God damn I made so many good posts in this thread. Bolding this one for sure since I called it early. So many Jokic haters/casuals literally JUST realized this postseason Jokic took Carmelo's Denver number (15). I saw a ton of comments saying the Nugs should've never allowed Jokic to wear Carmelo's number and Carmelo is a better basketball player...
:oldlol: This is 3ball level douchiness, you should be better than that. And I'd like to see these comments of people in 2023 claiming Melo is better than Jokic, post links/screenshots of this.

[StrongLurk]

:oldlol: This is 3ball level douchiness, you should be better than that. And I'd like to see these comments of people in 2023 claiming Melo is better than Jokic, post links/screenshots of this.

Sorry, I agree it's douchiness but I've been on the Jokic bandwagon since the bubble.

Also should've been more clear, I saw a lot of people claiming the Nuggets version of Melo is better than Jokic. Come on..you know what crowd is saying this (MuH mIdRaNgE, PuRe HoOpEr crowd).