I still think Jokic is underrated

[StrongLurk]

Dude is basically Dirk Nowitzki but with elite PG passing abilities added on. Even though he hasn't made a finals yet, he has always been a superstar in the playoffs.

Last three regular seasons averages (170 games).
Jokic: 26.4/12/8.2 with only 3.5 turnovers per game. 32.1 PER, 66 TS%, 12.8 BPM

I understand the league is very offensive friendly now, but the Joker is annihilating everyone on offense. His advanced stats look like prime MJ/Lebron level. If he was a black American and athletic (more exciting playstyle), he'd be in GOAT talks. I still see many people act like Embiid is better than Jokic, which is very odd since Embiid has accomplished less than Joker and is definitely a worse playoff performer.

[tontoz]

Hard to be underrated after winning back to back MVPs. I agree he is a beast though.

[1987_Lakers]

He's having another great season, but I think the fact that he has back to back MVPs, media/fans don't care to discuss him as much anymore.

[StrongLurk]

Hard to be underrated after winning back to back MVPs. I agree he is a beast though.

Underrated among the NBA fan base...he's barely talked about relative to his dominance of the game, similar to how no one talks about Tim Duncan.

[SouBeachTalents]

Hard to be underrated after winning back to back MVPs. I agree he is a beast though.
Yeah, this makes the claim that he's underrated ridiculous :lol It's moreso fans and the media just don't care about him, and the sad reality is that until you win a title, you'll never be considered legitimate in the eyes of the dumbed down, casual NBA fanbase and media.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Jokic's terrible defense hurts the Nuggets in the playoffs. According to the some advanced stats he is one of the 3 best players ever but he has terrible on/off numbers in the playoffs. Guys like Curry and KD are better defenders. I really like Jokic actually he is incredibly entertaining but he isn't much better than Embiid. Maybe very slightly. He is much better offensively but also much worse defensively.

[tontoz]

Jokic's terrible defense hurts the Nuggets in the playoffs. According to the some advanced stats he is one of the 3 best players ever but he has terrible on/off numbers in the playoffs. Guys like Curry and KD are better defenders. I really like Jokic actually he is incredibly entertaining but he isn't much better than Embiid. Maybe very slightly. He is much better offensively but also much worse defensively.


Jokic has a BPM of 9.3 for his career in the playoffs which is elite. He has been dominant in the playoffs and a net positive on defense.

[StrongLurk]

Yeah, this makes the claim that he's underrated ridiculous :lol It's moreso fans and the media just don't care about him, and the sad reality is that until you win a title, you'll never be considered legitimate in the eyes of the dumbed down, casual NBA fanbase and media.

He is underrated among the fan base though...which is my point. He is barely talked about just like Duncan was barely talked about compared to Shaq, Kobe, and even KG.

I'd be willing to bet that the average NBA fan holds someone like Carmelo Anthony in higher regards than Jokic.

[90sgoat]

I still don't understand why he can't get into elite shape. He seems to be gasping for air a lot.

If it legit is because he doesn't want to roid and most stars roid (Giannis, AD), then I understand that.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Jokic has a BPM of 9.3 for his career in the playoffs which is elite. It's not elite. It is the 3rd best all time after Michael Jordan and Lebron James. But even you know that is not an accurate ranking. You know that the guys that initiates offense and do everything on that side but hide/ conserve energy on the defensive side gets overrated by bpm. They average insane stats and they never have enough help. I wonder why?

[tontoz]

It's not elite. It is the 3rd best all time after Michael Jordan and Lebron James. But even you know that is not an accurate ranking. You know that the guys that initiates offense and do everything on that side but hide/ conserve energy on the defensive side gets overrated by bpm. They average insane stats and they never have enough help. I wonder why?


Maybe because their 2nd and 3rd options have been out hurt so often. MPJ has played only 25 games total the last two seasons. Murray hasn't played in the playoffs since the bubble.

Feel free to share the defensive metrics that have Jokic rated so poorly.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic just had TWENTY rebounds in the first half tonight. Currently has 27/24/8...all this in only 32 minutes.

Seriously there has never been a player like Jokic. He is just as unique as a Lebron or Giannis. Really hope this dude gets a ring one day because he is easily one of the best offensive players ever. Basically a Dirk/Bird hybrid.

[SATAN]

There's the triple double. 37/27/10. 30 seconds left.

[FultzNationRISE]

Jokic just had TWENTY rebounds in the first half tonight. Currently has 27/24/8...all this in only 32 minutes.

Seriously there has never been a player like Jokic. He is just as unique as a Lebron or Giannis. Really hope this dude gets a ring one day because he is easily one of the best offensive players ever. Basically a Dirk/Bird hybrid.


While he has three point range, he’s statistically not a sniper out there.


Crazy as it sounds, he might actually be more of a Magic/Kareem hybrid :biggums:

[NuggetsFan]

Honestly it's a shame he'll spend his entire career with the Nuggets. We've dealt with injury issues and in a perfect world where MPJ/Murray get healthy than I think the Nuggets would have done a bang up job but as it stands now he'll never have the support to get a ring. Which means he'll never get the proper attention he deserves. If he was doing what he's doing now in a bigger market I think he'd be getting the LeBron/Kobe etc. push.

He's just an absurd player. You mention how friendly the league is offensively now .. but it's not that way for big men. He manages to be an average/above average defender despite all the switching he has to do. I legitimately don't think there's 15 players that are more talented than Jokic in the history of the game. He can do everything offensively at an elite level. He can bring the ball up the court, pass from the post, create off the bounce, shoot from anywhere, elite in the post, GOAT level touch around the rim. He's in the conversation for the most skilled player of all-time IMO. You give him elite athleticism and there's legitimate talk about him being the GOAT right now.

[NBAGOAT]

Connelly drafts really well but sucks at team building and it’ll cost jokic and looking like it’ll cost the wolves too. They did not need to give porter a max, small stuff like the beasley trade was bad too. Booth did a nice job this offseason with the brown and kcp pickups but Murray is really going have to get hot for the nuggets to match how they looked in 2021 post Gordon trade

[RRR3]

Connelly drafts really well but sucks at team building and it’ll cost jokic and looking like it’ll cost the wolves too. They did not need to give porter a max, small stuff like the beasley trade was bad too. Booth did a nice job this offseason with the brown and kcp pickups but Murray is really going have to get hot for the nuggets to match how they looked in 2021 post Gordon trade
They can win a ring if Murray can get back to his 2021 form (21+ on good efficiency) and MPJ stays healthy and develops a bit more. I really thought Murray would be a 25 PPG scorer by now. Maybe he would have been if he hadn't torn his ACL.

[NBAGOAT]

They can win a ring if Murray can get back to his 2021 form (21+ on good efficiency) and MPJ stays healthy and develops a bit more. I really thought Murray would be a 25 PPG scorer by now. Maybe he would have been if he hadn't torn his ACL.

Yea if that happens I agree though their bench does have issues too.

[StrongLurk]

While he has three point range, he’s statistically not a sniper out there.


Crazy as it sounds, he might actually be more of a Magic/Kareem hybrid :biggums:

He's a damn monster however you want to slice it. He's absolutely a top three player in the NBA these last few years. I can't rank him any lower than 3.

[StrongLurk]

Taking this from Reddit for Jokic.

25/11/9 on 62% — First seed in West — Leads NBA in +/- — Tied 1st in double doubles — Tied 1st in triple doubles — Most APG by a center ever — First ever 25/10/5 season on 60 FG% If you’re curious: yes, he leads the league in PER, WS, BPM and VORP.

We are potentially looking at a GOAT offensive stretch for a Center these last few years. Just a shame that we know the current NBA is easier to play in offensively compared to the last 30 years or so.

[SouBeachTalents]

I didn't even realize he was shooting 62% from the FIELD, that is fcking insane :lol Not even Shaq or Kareem did that.

But as it stands now, in addition to being foreign, Jokic looks like he's going to be the biggest casualty of rangz culture the league has seen. As someone else said, you really can argue, just on peak play, Jokic is a top 15-20 player ever, but he will sadly never be remembered that way without any titles.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I didn't even realize he was shooting 62% from the FIELD, that is fcking insane :lol Not even Shaq or Kareem did that.

But as it stands now, in addition to being foreign, Jokic looks like he's going to be the biggest casualty of rangz culture the league has seen. As someone else said, you really can argue, just on peak play, Jokic is a top 15-20 player ever, but he will sadly never be remembered that way without any titles.

He will easily be remembered as top 20. Guys like Barkley and Malone routinely fall in that 15-20 range and Jokic has peaked higher than both.

[hold this L]

3rd best player in the league. An absolute beast of a player and might be the best passing big in NBA history already at this point. :applause:

[RRR3]

3rd best player in the league. An absolute beast of a player and might be the best passing big in NBA history already at this point. :applause:
3rd lol. Jokic would have the Warriors way above .500. Fuming.

[hold this L]

3rd lol. Jokic would have the Warriors way above .500. Fuming.

https://i.gifer.com/origin/43/43c05dcd56610f2e5fdf3d79533ea2b7_w200.webp

[RRR3]

https://i.gifer.com/origin/43/43c05dcd56610f2e5fdf3d79533ea2b7_w200.webp
All the impact stats you jerk off to have him clearly over your hero. Accept that your boys been surpassed.

[Axe]

Taking this from Reddit for Jokic.

25/11/9 on 62% — First seed in West — Leads NBA in +/- — Tied 1st in double doubles — Tied 1st in triple doubles — Most APG by a center ever — First ever 25/10/5 season on 60 FG% If you’re curious: yes, he leads the league in PER, WS, BPM and VORP.

We are potentially looking at a GOAT offensive stretch for a Center these last few years. Just a shame that we know the current NBA is easier to play in offensively compared to the last 30 years or so.
Even more amazing is the fact that he was the 41st pick in the league almost a decade ago. His improvement over the years has been nothing short of outstanding.

[hold this L]

All the impact stats you jerk off to have him clearly over your hero. Accept that your boys been surpassed.
https://data.zouqicq.com/images/news/220617/u536hg4p4w.gif


Kiss the ring babyboi, still fresh.

[RRR3]

https://data.zouqicq.com/images/news/220617/u536hg4p4w.gif


Kiss the ring babyboi, still fresh.
Kawhi was the best player in the league in 2015 by this logic. Jokic’s best teammate the last two years has been Aaron Gordon :oldlol:

[tontoz]

Kawhi was the best player in the league in 2015 by this logic. Jokic’s best teammate the last two years has been Aaron Gordon :oldlol:

So a guy who averaged 16 ppg and got eliminated in the first round was the best player in the league in 2015?

:facepalm

[RRR3]

So a guy who averaged 16 ppg and got eliminated in the first round was the best player in the league in 2015?

:facepalm
Can you read? I said by the logic he was using. All the data says Jokic is the best player right now he’s just furious it doesn’t say his crush is.

[tontoz]

Can you read? I said by the logic he was using. All the data says Jokic is the best player right now he’s just furious it doesn’t say his crush is.


There is no logic comparing Kawhi in 2015 to Curry now. Curry was 5th on MVP ladder before he got hurt in spite of their bad record

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-nov-25-2022-edition



not to mention that that he averaged 31 ppg in the finals against an elite defense (Kawhi only averaged 17.8). Curry was also MVP finalist in 2021. Kawhi was just a role player.

As far a Jokic goes he has won two straight MVPs so there is no question he is elite. His advanced numbers have been sick basically ever since he lost weight.

[RRR3]

There is no logic comparing Kawhi in 2015 to Curry now. Curry was 5th on MVP ladder before he got hurt in spite of their bad record

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-nov-25-2022-edition



not to mention that that he averaged 31 ppg in the finals against an elite defense (Kawhi only averaged 17.8). Curry was also MVP finalist in 2021. Kawhi was just a role player.
You’re apparently too dense to get that I meant the best player on the team that won the previous year isn’t automatically the best player. It’s simpleminded logic. Jokic is by all measures the best player right now.

[tontoz]

You’re apparently too dense to get that I meant the best player on the team that won the previous year isn’t automatically the best player. It’s simpleminded logic. Jokic is by all measures the best player right now.


That isn't a valid comparison because Kawhi was just a role player at that time. He averaged only 12.8 ppg the year he won his first title. Not even remotely comparable to Curry who has 2 MVPs and was in the MVP race before he got hurt.

Do better

[RRR3]

That isn't a valid comparison because Kawhi was just a role player at that time. He averaged only 12.8 ppg the year he won his first title. Not even remotely comparable to Curry who has 2 MVPs and was in the MVP race before he got hurt.

Do better
Make an argument for Curry being better than Jokic currently besides RANGZZZZZZZ DOEEEE and I will.

[tontoz]

Make an argument for Curry being better than Jokic currently besides RANGZZZZZZZ DOEEEE and I will.

I never said Curry was better than Jokic. I just think your Kawhi comparison was dumb.

If you want to argue Jokic is better than Curry you should be able to do it without making a dumb comparison like that. You shouldn't need to bring up another player at all.

[RRR3]

I never said Curry was better than Jokic. I just think your Kawhi comparison was dumb.

If you want to argue Jokic is better than Curry you should be able to do it without making a dumb comparison like that. You shouldn't need to bring up another player at all.
Except I already did I said he had better impact stats. HoldthisL responded with RANGZZZZ DOE but you of course took his side because Curry gives your private parts the shivers.

[tontoz]

Except I already did I said he had better impact stats. HoldthisL responded with RANGZZZZ DOE but you of course took his side because Curry gives your private parts the shivers.

I think you misread his meaning. When you went into your typical "fuming" nonsense that is when he brought up the ring. I don't think he is too upset about anything after his team just won another title. He didn't even say who he feels the current top two players are.

Your lame fall back "fuming...seething...meltdown" nonsense is just lazy.

[Axe]

There is no logic comparing Kawhi in 2015 to Curry now. Curry was 5th on MVP ladder before he got hurt in spite of their bad record

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-nov-25-2022-edition



not to mention that that he averaged 31 ppg in the finals against an elite defense (Kawhi only averaged 17.8). Curry was also MVP finalist in 2021. Kawhi was just a role player.
Not enough (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?379867-Finals-MVP-Alpha-Male-Curry-Appreciation-Thread) for him to win a finals mvp until last season tho. :ohwell:

[tontoz]

Not enough (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?379867-Finals-MVP-Alpha-Male-Curry-Appreciation-Thread) for him to win a finals mvp until last season tho. :ohwell:


Shouldn't you be busy flirting with your boyfriends Full Court and Baller?

[Axe]

Come on, uncle. Now isn't the time for such nonsense. :(

[tontoz]

Come on, uncle. Now isn't the time for such nonsense. :(


That's never stopped you before :oldlol:

[BigShotBob]

He's kind of overrated actually. Love his game from time to time but he did get outplayed by CJ Mccollum in a game 7 at home when Dame played like absolute dogshit. Hard to let that one go.

[SouBeachTalents]

He's kind of overrated actually. Love his game from time to time but he did get outplayed by CJ Mccollum in a game 7 at home when Dame played like absolute dogshit. Hard to let that one go.
What kinda bullshit argument is this :lol Using a literal ONE game sample size, from two years before he hit his peak? What an incredibly dumb take.

[StrongLurk]

What kinda bullshit argument is this :lol Using a literal ONE game sample size, from two years before he hit his peak? What an incredibly dumb take.

Posts like his are common for some reason. Just proves my point even more. Was someone like Barkley (top 20 player of all time in a lot of people's minds) ever as good as Jokic has been these last 2-3 years? I say no.

[Axe]

Posts like his are common for some reason. Just proves my point even more. Was someone like Barkley (top 20 player of all time in a lot of people's minds) ever as good as Jokic has been these last 2-3 years? I say no.
Only goes to show how much the league has vastly improved since the jurassic 90s days. What's more, it's an international player being significant like this. Something a bit rare in the past eras.

[tontoz]

Make no mistake Barkley was a beast. He actually led the league in TS four straight years while averaging 25+ ppg. He was also one of the league leaders in rebounds.

He was a good playmaker too but not on Jokic level. He was also a freak athlete, nasty on the break and a bully inside

[RRR3]

Make no mistake Barkley was a beast. He actually led the league in TS four straight years while averaging 25+ ppg. He was also one of the league leaders in rebounds.

He was a good playmaker too but not on Jokic level. He was also a freak athlete, nasty on the break and a bully inside
Thanks for the little known fact, none of us knew this.

[Manny98]

Best passer ever

Best offensive big man ever

Making a case for his 3rd straight MVP (between him and KD right now)

Although I'd like to see him do more in the postseason

[tontoz]

Thanks for the little known fact, none of us knew this.



Seething

[Axe]

Seething
:roll:

[StrongLurk]

41/15/15

Honestly guys like Garnett and Barkley can't touch the Joker. This guy is reaching for the best big men of all time.

[csh19792001]

41/15/15

Honestly guys like Garnett and Barkley can't touch the Joker. This guy is reaching for the best big men of all time.

Yes he is heading for GOAT Center Status. Last 3 seasons, including playoffs: 190 games: 26.8/12.1/8.1 on .576 shooting. +7.4 relative true shooting. Insane volume with insane efficiency. Best passing center ever, and it's not even remotely close.

Last three seasons, he's been dominating the NBA like no other Center since Wilt Chamberlain.

Third 41/15/15 game in NBA History. Only Harden and Oscar did that.

The 40/27/10 game? Hasn't been done since Wilt himself, 3/18/68.

[Jasper]

last night Richard Jefferson stated that with Jokic Denver is a top team in the west.
When he sits on the bench Denver is rated like 30th in offense.:banghead:

[StrongLurk]

Yes he is heading for GOAT Center Status. Last 3 seasons, including playoffs: 190 games: 26.8/12.1/8.1 on .576 shooting. +7.4 relative true shooting. Insane volume with insane efficiency. Best passing center ever, and it's not even remotely close.

Last three seasons, he's been dominating the NBA like no other Center since Wilt Chamberlain.

Third 41/15/15 game in NBA History. Only Harden and Oscar did that.

The 40/27/10 game? Hasn't been done since Wilt himself, 3/18/68.

I posted similar stats earlier in this thread. Jokic is straight up the best offensive player in the league and by a decent margin.

[Im Still Ballin]

last night Richard Jefferson stated that with Jokic Denver is a top team in the west.
When he sits on the bench Denver is rated like 30th in offense.:banghead:

:O

[StrongLurk]

Bump

[StrongLurk]

Yep...still underrated.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic up to 25/12/10 on 63/40/82 splits...70.3 TS% :roll:

Best all around offensive player in the league.

[Real Men Wear Green]

He is likely about to become a three time mvp. This topic is like saying Warren Buffet is poor.

[StrongLurk]

He is likely about to become a three time mvp. This topic is like saying Warren Buffet is poor.

The majority of the NBA fanbase do not think Jokic is a top 5 player in the league. He is constantly disrespected when I see conversations about him on various platforms/media.

If he was a black American and athletic, he'd be getting GOAT talks.

[AlternativeAcc.]

The majority of the NBA fanbase do not think Jokic is a top 5 player in the league. He is constantly disrespected when I see conversations about him on various platforms/media.

If he was a black American and athletic, he'd be getting GOAT talks.
Yeah if Towns was doing the exact same thing Joker is doing, he'd be a far more respected and popular athlete. Obviously the MVP voters know they can't not give him MVP, but the MVPs themselves build contempt from the general public because they think winning rings is the be all end all while ignoring context. He'd get far less disrespect tho if he was black. Perkins certainly wouldn't be crying on air about racism.

[StrongLurk]

Yeah if Towns was doing the exact same thing Joker is doing, he'd be a far more respected and popular athlete. Obviously the MVP voters know they can't not give him MVP, but the MVPs themselves build contempt from the general public because they think winning rings is the be all end all while ignoring context. He'd get far less disrespect tho if he was black. Perkins certainly wouldn't be crying on air about racism.

Exactly. Jokic is basically the complete opposite of mainstream NBA fandom/culture. He won't get fans from the basic fanbase unless he wins a ring. Even then, he won't receive the normal hype. Shit the average NBA fan probably thinks Derek Rose on the Bulls was better than Jokic ever was.

[Real Men Wear Green]

The majority of the NBA fanbase do not think Jokic is a top 5 player in the league. He is constantly disrespected when I see conversations about him on various platforms/media.

If he was a black American and athletic, he'd be getting GOAT talks.
Is Kevin Durant a 3 time mvp? No?
Oh wait only guy like that in the league today is James. The idea that a guy about to get the MVP award for a third year in a row is somehow the victim of discrimination... you realize you're a ****ing idiot, right?

[RRR3]

The majority of the NBA fanbase do not think Jokic is a top 5 player in the league. He is constantly disrespected when I see conversations about him on various platforms/media.

If he was a black American and athletic, he'd be getting GOAT talks.
Yes, poor white people get no respect :roll: :facepalm


It’s cause he’s not flashy. Luka is white and clearly worse but gets more respect for being flashy.

[FultzNationRISE]

Yes, poor white people get no respect :roll: :facepalm


It’s cause he’s not flashy. Luka is white and clearly worse but gets more respect for being flashy.


We need look no further than you for proof.

[StrongLurk]

Is Kevin Durant a 3 time mvp? No?
Oh wait only guy like that in the league today is James. The idea that a guy about to get the MVP award for a third year in a row is somehow the victim of discrimination... you realize you're a ****ing idiot, right?

Why are struggling with what I am saying? Did I ever say the MVP VOTERS are underrating Jokic? No I did not.

I am saying the NBA fandom/masses are underrating Jokic for a few on-court and off-court reasons.

If fans were voting then Jokic wouldn't come close to MVP.

[SouBeachTalents]

Why are struggling with what I am saying? Did I ever say the MVP VOTERS are underrating Jokic? No I did not.

I am saying the NBA fandom/masses are underrating Jokic for a few on-court and off-court reasons.

If fans were voting then Jokic wouldn't come close to MVP.
If fans voted Kobe would have 5 MVP’s, while Iverson might have 2-3.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Why are struggling with what I am saying? Did I ever say the MVP VOTERS are underrating Jokic? No I did not.

I am saying the NBA fandom/masses are underrating Jokic for a few on-court and off-court reasons.

If fans were voting then Jokic wouldn't come close to MVP.

No one is failing to understand you. You are claiming without any evidence whatsoever that NBA fans-- who are mainly white-- are discriminating against Jokic. Because he is white. You are an idiot.

[RRR3]

No one is failing to understand you. You are claiming without any evidence whatsoever that NBA fans-- who are mainly white-- are discriminating against Jokic. Because he is white. You are an idiot.
:lol

[StrongLurk]

No one is failing to understand you. You are claiming without any evidence whatsoever that NBA fans-- who are mainly white-- are discriminating against Jokic. Because he is white. You are an idiot.

You are being obtuse. I am not going to find and post everything I read about Jokic from social media sites. Anyone who reads basketball should be seeing the same general trend of underrating and disrespecting Jokic.

Also I am not claiming Jokic is being discriminated because he is white...it's because he is not American, secondarily not a black American, and third he is unathletic. Jokic also doesn't fit the NBA culture AT ALL. This is why he is underrated (maybe I should say underappreciated?). Someone like Giannis would be way more hyped if he was an American as well...but a ton of people still refer to him as "run and dunk".

Seriously, you and RRR3 look dumb trying to paint me as some right-wing white person trying to claim generic "racism". What I'm claiming is much more nuanced and honestly factual.

[bizil]

Here's the thing... Some superstar level players AREN'T going to be one of the faces of the league marketed to the masses. You gotta have a certain IT FACTOR for that. In today's league, its guys like Bron, Steph, Giannis, KD, Luka, etc. Joker as great as he is will get slept on by the casual fanbase. EVEN THOUGH he's about to likely win a 3rd MVP. And is known as the best offensive center ever when u combine passing and scoring. Plus he's the king of triple doubles among centers.

The media overall gives him his props. So he catches NO BS NARRATIVES from the media. He's just not a SUPERSTAR the league will lean on to market the game. He's not the COMBO of superstar on the court AND ROCK STAR the league relies on to market to casuals. Duncan has similar issues back in the day. BUT his championship success superceded it. And he is the GOAT PF. So since he was in the Finals all the time (the time when casuals REALLY LOCK INTO THE LEAGUE), he became a household name to them even. And the league HAD TO COME AROUND because the Spurs were a dynasty.

BUT if you don't have those things going for you PLUS don't play in a huge media market, superstars like a Jokic will be UNDER THE RADAR to the casual fanbase. EVEN THOUGH he's a top 6 caliber center ever peak-prime wise. And when you look at the top 10 centers GOAT wise, literally ALL OF THEM were one of the faces of the league. I'm talking Cap, Wilt, Russ, Shaq, Hakeem, David, and Ewing for example. GOAT wise, Joker is gonna be on that level. But IT FACTOR wise, he's not somebody the league is gonna market to casuals.

If he pulls a Duncan and wins SO MUCH that it supercedes the lack of IT FACTOR, AMONG CASUALS Joker will get his just due. BUT if you know the game, you know Joker is an all time great! And THAT's MORE IMPORTANT! If you want superstars who get DENIED their rightful place in history throughout the years, look at guys like Nique, McAdoo, English, Dantley, etc. All of them got labeled unfairly by the media OR their career took an unusual path at some point.

Or underrated guys who were never All Stars like a Rod Strickland, Byron Scott, etc. Joker DOESN'T have those issues! When it comes to the all time great PF's, Bob P's name NEVER comes up anymore. YET his peers like West, Oscar, Baylor, Wilt, and Russell STILL get mentioned to this day. Bob was the GOAT PF UNTIL the Mailman and Barkley got rolling. That's A LONG ASS TIME that he was the king of his position! Dr. J gets his props for being WAY AHEAD of his time being a freak athletic scoring machine that played about the rim. YET David Thompson's name doesn't get brought up enough. He was THE GUY to bring freak athletic ability to the backcourt. Just like Doc, he was WAY AHEAD OF HIS TIME! Their rivalry was like the MJ-Nique rivalry of that time period!

[Real Men Wear Green]

You are being obtuse. I am not going to find and post everything I read about Jokic from social media sites. Anyone who reads basketball should be seeing the same general trend of underrating and disrespecting Jokic.

Also I am not claiming Jokic is being discriminated because he is white...it's because he is not American, secondarily not a black American, and third he is unathletic. Jokic also doesn't fit the NBA culture AT ALL. This is why he is underrated (maybe I should say underappreciated?). Someone like Giannis would be way more hyped if he was an American as well...but a ton of people still refer to him as "run and dunk".

Seriously, you and RRR3 look dumb trying to paint me as some right-wing white person trying to claim generic "racism". What I'm claiming is much more nuanced and honestly factual.

You are saying that a soon to be 3peat mvp is underrated because white people don't appreciate a white person.

You are an idiot.

[bizil]

For those saying Jokic is getting discriminated against because he's European that's BS!!! Because Luka is one of the faces of the league. And has the IT FACTOR to draw in casual fans. So the league markets that! Once again, the league LEANS ON a group of 6-8 guys to be the faces of the league. If a player plays in a major media market, that's even better. Hell even though Kawhi has won a couple of rings, he's still NOT A DRAW truly for the casual fanbase. You can look at ANY SPORT and the same applies!

[Celtics 1825]

Dude is already being touted as a potential top 5 center of all time and you're saying he's underrated?!

[StrongLurk]

You are saying that a soon to be 3peat mvp is underrated because white people don't appreciate a white person.

You are an idiot.

You struggle with reading comprehension. Let me post the same thing again - it's because he is not American, secondarily not a black American, and third he is unathletic. Jokic also doesn't fit the NBA player culture AT ALL.

Here is a good example - Jokic, the potential b2b2b MVP - is not even top 15 in Jersey sales. Maybe that's an easy fact for you to understand to show that he is underappreciated by the NBA fan base. Also Jokic does not "fit in" with the average NBA player as well...he just has a way different background (dude might like messing around with horses more than basketball).

[hold this L]

What do shirt sales have to do with him being underrated? He's not popular sure, but many NBA fans and analysts realize he's one of the best players in the league.

[StrongLurk]

What do shirt sales have to do with him being underrated? He's not popular sure, but many NBA fans and analysts realize he's one of the best players in the league.

Him not being popular automatically underrates him among the masses of NBA fans. Why do you think a ton of people have Kobe Bryant as the second best player of all time? It's because of his insane popularity. People like us know Kobe is not even top five all time. Sure the basketball media and people like us know how good Jokic is, but he is getting MAJOR hate from the average NBA fan because they don't think he deserves three MVPS and a lot of people think he didn't even deserve two.

[StrongLurk]

Now we got Perk actively being racist on national television regarding Jokic. Shit is sad.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic is GOATED. Best offensive player in the league for me and easily one of the best all time.

Dude has been a superstar every playoff run unlike the Sixers center.

[bdonovan]

Because Jokic lacks the footwork, athletic build, finesse, talent/moves that many top offensive centers have had, his game depends on a few things: craftiness, precise shooting, and using his body to create distance from the defender. On the latter, Jokic depends on white refs to let him get away with ALOT of physical contact that would likely be called as a foul were he not white. I'd say that accounts for about 1/3rd of his game. He is still a great player but not an all-time great player because he is getting a major handout from the refs, which makes up for his lack of offensive skill.

I still admire his passing ability and versatility on the offensive end. Too slow to be an effective rim protector and defensive presence.

[DMAVS41]

Because Jokic lacks the footwork, athletic build, finesse, talent/moves that many top offensive centers have had, his game depends on a few things: craftiness, precise shooting, and using his body to create distance from the defender. On the latter, Jokic depends on white refs to let him get away with ALOT of physical contact that would likely be called as a foul were he not white. I'd say that accounts for about 1/3rd of his game. He is still a great player but not an all-time great player because he is getting a major handout from the refs, which makes up for his lack of offensive skill.

I still admire his passing ability and versatility on the offensive end. Too slow to be an effective rim protector and defensive presence.

He is absolutely an all-time great player. Beyond absurd to claim he isn't. He's going to walk into the hall if he retired right this moment.

[SouBeachTalents]

Because Jokic lacks the footwork, athletic build, finesse, talent/moves that many top offensive centers have had, his game depends on a few things: craftiness, precise shooting, and using his body to create distance from the defender. On the latter, Jokic depends on white refs to let him get away with ALOT of physical contact that would likely be called as a foul were he not white. I'd say that accounts for about 1/3rd of his game. He is still a great player but not an all-time great player because he is getting a major handout from the refs, which makes up for his lack of offensive skill.

I still admire his passing ability and versatility on the offensive end. Too slow to be an effective rim protector and defensive presence.
Shut up fakkit

[ShawkFactory]

Because Jokic lacks the footwork, athletic build, finesse, talent/moves that many top offensive centers have had, his game depends on a few things: craftiness, precise shooting, and using his body to create distance from the defender. On the latter, Jokic depends on white refs to let him get away with ALOT of physical contact that would likely be called as a foul were he not white. I'd say that accounts for about 1/3rd of his game. He is still a great player but not an all-time great player because he is getting a major handout from the refs, which makes up for his lack of offensive skill.

I still admire his passing ability and versatility on the offensive end. Too slow to be an effective rim protector and defensive presence.

This is one of the most bizarre and off-base posts I've seen.

[RRR3]

Bdumbnavan makes up negative things about every player besides his hero Curry. He also claims Durant is a negative impact player.

[bdonovan]

Bdumbnavan makes up negative things about every player besides his hero Curry. He also claims Durant is a negative impact player.

Tell me where I made something up.

He has not put the time in the gym to develop strong muscle tone nor top conditioning.

His footwork is nothing compared to Hakeem or Tim Duncan; oftentimes he turns in circles and very clearly moves his pivot foot but is never called for traveling.

His defense is subpar and he's not a rim protector like a lot of the All Time Great centers who were excellent two way players.

He is not fast and has slow reflexes.

He lacks a go-to shot like Kareem's hook shot or Ewing's fade away. A lot of his baskets come from knocking the defender backwards, not beating them to the position because he lacks the speed of a Hakeem or even a Shaquille O'neal.

I said he was a great player not all time great, but that's clearly enough for people to lose their mind.

[ShawkFactory]

Tell me where I made something up.

He has not put the time in the gym to develop strong muscle tone nor top conditioning.

His footwork is nothing compared to Hakeem or Tim Duncan; oftentimes he turns in circles and very clearly moves his pivot foot but is never called for traveling.

His defense is subpar and he's not a rim protector like a lot of the All Time Great centers who were excellent two way players.

He is not fast and has slow reflexes.

He lacks a go-to shot like Kareem's hook shot or Ewing's fade away. A lot of his baskets come from knocking the defender backwards, not beating them to the position because he lacks the speed of a Hakeem or even a Shaquille O'neal.

I said he was a great player not all time great, but that's clearly enough for people to lose their mind.

Because he plays the game differently than the standard of the position doesn't mean as much to me. He has incredible touch around the basket with both hands, is one of the best shooters the position has ever seen, and is certainly the best passer. On top of that he has the IQ to know when and where to attack and get himself and his teammates in the best position possible.

You're talking purely about the bag (which Jokic is not lacking) and ignoring the big picture of what his play does during a game.

[RRR3]

Tell me where I made something up.

He has not put the time in the gym to develop strong muscle tone nor top conditioning.

His footwork is nothing compared to Hakeem or Tim Duncan; oftentimes he turns in circles and very clearly moves his pivot foot but is never called for traveling.

His defense is subpar and he's not a rim protector like a lot of the All Time Great centers who were excellent two way players.

He is not fast and has slow reflexes.

He lacks a go-to shot like Kareem's hook shot or Ewing's fade away. A lot of his baskets come from knocking the defender backwards, not beating them to the position because he lacks the speed of a Hakeem or even a Shaquille O'neal.

I said he was a great player not all time great, but that's clearly enough for people to lose their mind.
You said Jokic lacks footwork, moves and finesse which no one who’s ever watched him play would say unless they were seething with rage the whole time they watched him. Reminds me of LeBron haters saying he can’t post up.

[bdonovan]

Because he plays the game differently than the standard of the position doesn't mean as much to me. He has incredible touch around the basket with both hands, is one of the best shooters the position has ever seen, and is certainly the best passer. On top of that he has the IQ to know when and where to attack and get himself and his teammates in the best position possible.

You're talking purely about the bag (which Jokic is not lacking) and ignoring the big picture of what his play does during a game.

I agree with that. He does make his teammates better which is a major plus and puts him above stars who simply score.

However, it seems people completely ignore his weaknesses when talking about him. I really wonder whether the Nuggets can with Jokic as their lead and it's not a "more help" thing; if he cant' win it all, with the pieces he has around him, I doubt he is an all-time great.

[bdonovan]

You said Jokic lacks footwork, moves and finesse which no one who’s ever watched him play would say unless they were seething with rage the whole time they watched him. Reminds me of LeBron haters saying he can’t post up.

Maybe I need to watch more games with him but the ones I've seen, I don't know that I would classify it that way. He creates separation with his size, and then is quick to get a shot off. He uses intelligence and timing more than practiced skill or athleticism that comes from physical training. When I say he lacks those 3 things above, compare him to videos of Hakeem Olajuwon some time.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic is Dirk/Bird/Nash all in one.

[ArbitraryWater]

Jokic is Dirk/Bird/Nash all in one.

and Shaq.

The way he bullies opponents with his size and backs them down is very Shaq like.


Its crazy to think a player would be reminiscent of both Nash and Shaq. And everything in between, like Dirk.

Guy is a unicorn.

[StrongLurk]

and Shaq.

The way he bullies opponents with his size and backs them down is very Shaq like.


Its crazy to think a player would be reminiscent of both Nash and Shaq. And everything in between, like Dirk.

Guy is a unicorn.

I want to include this part of my OP from December.

"I still see many people act like Embiid is better than Jokic, which is very odd since Embiid has accomplished less than Joker and is definitely a worse playoff performer."

This was STILL true even during the 1st round of the playoffs.

Embiid's playoff career is littered with injuries, mental chokes, and underperformances. Meanwhile Jokic has been a superstar pretty much always in the playoffs.

If Embiid loses game 7 against the Celtics, then hopefully any talk of Embiid>Jokic will stop.

[StrongLurk]

I want to include this part of my OP from December.

"I still see many people act like Embiid is better than Jokic, which is very odd since Embiid has accomplished less than Joker and is definitely a worse playoff performer."

This was STILL true even during the 1st round of the playoffs.

Embiid's playoff career is littered with injuries, mental chokes, and underperformances. Meanwhile Jokic has been a superstar pretty much always in the playoffs.

If Embiid loses game 7 against the Celtics, then hopefully any talk of Embiid>Jokic will stop.

Quick bump from two days ago.

Not surprised at all that Embiid stunk up game 7.

Jokic and Giannis are clearly ahead of Embiid until Embiid can physically and mentally play like a superstar in the playoffs.

[StrongLurk]

One more W until he gets to his first finals. Really hope he wins a ring this year and shuts up all the media/fan morons. Jokic is the most skilled player of all time.

[Duffy Pratt]

As I understand it, the thinking is as follows: He has a vertical leap of somewhere between 5-10”. Therefore, he must be bad at basketball. Don’t believe all those other things that might indicate otherwise.

[StrongLurk]

:rockon:

[StrongLurk]

Dude is basically Dirk Nowitzki but with elite PG passing abilities added on. Even though he hasn't made a finals yet, he has always been a superstar in the playoffs.

Last three regular seasons averages (170 games).
Jokic: 26.4/12/8.2 with only 3.5 turnovers per game. 32.1 PER, 66 TS%, 12.8 BPM

I understand the league is very offensive friendly now, but the Joker is annihilating everyone on offense. His advanced stats look like prime MJ/Lebron level. If he was a black American and athletic (more exciting playstyle), he'd be in GOAT talks. I still see many people act like Embiid is better than Jokic, which is very odd since Embiid has accomplished less than Joker and is definitely a worse playoff performer.

OP is dead on.

There are STILL tons of people not willing to say Jokic is the best player in the league...it's insane.

Not only has he been the best player for the last three years, but is easily peaking as one of the best offensive players of all time.

When have we had a player who is an elite scorer from every spot on the floor AND the best passer in the league?

[elementally morale]

Not only has he been the best player for the last three years, but is easily peaking as one of the best offensive players of all time.


I think he is not at his peak yet. Doesn't rely much on jumping and speed so his peak may be when he is 30-33. He is in his prime and has been for the last 2-3 years but I think he still has a gear in him. Like the last game, aka game 3 vs. the Heat. He can constantly play that way in the playoffs. He was visibly better than is games 1 and 2. If he starts the game with rebounding aggresseively and with a chip on his shoulder, wanting to take over like he did in all game 3, he is bound to have some even better performances.

[90sgoat]

I think he is not at his peak yet. Doesn't rely much on jumping and speed so his peak may be when he is 30-33. He is in his prime and has been for the last 2-3 years but I think he still has a gear in him. Like the last game, aka game 3 vs. the Heat. He can constantly play that way in the playoffs. He was visibly better than is games 1 and 2. If he starts the game with rebounding aggresseively and with a chip on his shoulder, wanting to take over like he did in all game 3, he is bound to have some even better performances.

I don't see him getting better physically, but with even more experience, he should get better defensively and better from 3.

He doesn't really need to get better either. This postseason he dominated AD in their head to head as well. The only thing that remains to be seen is how he would do against another big center such as Embiid, but that's basically it. Who else can stop Jokic with a halfway competent team?

[elementally morale]

I don't see him getting better physically, but with even more experience, he should get better defensively and better from 3.

He doesn't really need to get better either. This postseason he dominated AD in their head to head as well. The only thing that remains to be seen is how he would do against another big center such as Embiid, but that's basically it. Who else can stop Jokic with a halfway competent team?

He doesn't need to get better. All I was saying is that I can imagine him becoming even better. Nash became better over 30. Not physically but as a player. One can argue that Kobe became better despite being less athletic at aroind the age of 30. Dirk was at his best as a 32-33 year-old. The way Jokic plays he can improve in some areas, one of them being looking to attack the basket more just like he did this last game. We shall see,

[Akeem34TheDream]

Jokic's terrible defense hurts the Nuggets in the playoffs. According to the some advanced stats he is one of the 3 best players ever but he has terrible on/off numbers in the playoffs. Guys like Curry and KD are better defenders. I really like Jokic actually he is incredibly entertaining but he isn't much better than Embiid. Maybe very slightly. He is much better offensively but also much worse defensively.

OOOF okay this post aged terribly and i know that his supporting cast was terrible in the last 2 playoffs but the way they got swept against the Suns was so terrible. Chris Paul pretty much exposed him in that series. Seriously go watch it. But the Nuggets and Jokic got much better obviously. I have heard someone say those 2 playoff experiences made him a better player because he became a more aggressive scorer and i agree with that. Also Jokic and Murray compliment each other beautifully. I just regret the Embiid part, i feel like he played even worse in recent playoffs.

[StrongLurk]

OOOF okay this post aged terribly and i know that his supporting cast was terrible in the last 2 playoffs but the way they got swept against the Suns was so terrible. Chris Paul pretty much exposed him in that series. Seriously go watch it. But the Nuggets and Jokic got much better obviously. I have heard someone say those 2 playoff experiences made him a better player because he became a more aggressive scorer and i agree with that. Also Jokic and Murray compliment each other beautifully. I just regret the Embiid part, i feel like he played even worse in recent playoffs.

Embiid literally never had an argument as being better than Jokic.

Even when people were trying to tear down Jokic during this season by saying he "hasn't done anything in the playoffs" (which is ignorant and a lie), he's literally gone further in the playoffs then Embiid ever has. So even that argument was complete bullshit.

People are simply mad that Jokic has proven them ignorant.

[StrongLurk]

First 3 finals games for Jokic.

33/14/9 on 59/44/86 splits. If he keeps this up and wins a ring, it might be the best "debut" finals performance since MJ in 91.

Seriously hoping Denver wins this ring so all the dumbasses can shut up about Jokic.

[Micku]

First 3 finals games for Jokic.

33/14/9 on 59/44/86 splits. If he keeps this up and wins a ring, it might be the best "debut" finals performance since MJ in 91.

Seriously hoping Denver wins this ring so all the dumbasses can shut up about Jokic.

Giannis was great too. I think it's him, Jokic, and MJ in terms of best debut since 1990.

But Jokic got some crazy stats. Dude is averaging a 30pt triple-double in the playoffs. All the way to the finals. Insane.

[90sgoat]

OOOF okay this post aged terribly and i know that his supporting cast was terrible in the last 2 playoffs but the way they got swept against the Suns was so terrible. Chris Paul pretty much exposed him in that series. Seriously go watch it. But the Nuggets and Jokic got much better obviously. I have heard someone say those 2 playoff experiences made him a better player because he became a more aggressive scorer and i agree with that. Also Jokic and Murray compliment each other beautifully. I just regret the Embiid part, i feel like he played even worse in recent playoffs.

On/off is a terrible stat to use, because it highly overrates starters on good teams or good benches on bad teams.

[StrongLurk]

Still can't believe this guy had so many haters.

Just goes to show the NBA fan base is casual and dumb as hell.

[StrongLurk]

He is underrated among the fan base though...which is my point. He is barely talked about just like Duncan was barely talked about compared to Shaq, Kobe, and even KG.

I'd be willing to bet that the average NBA fan holds someone like Carmelo Anthony in higher regards than Jokic.

God damn I made so many good posts in this thread. Bolding this one for sure since I called it early. So many Jokic haters/casuals literally JUST realized this postseason Jokic took Carmelo's Denver number (15). I saw a ton of comments saying the Nugs should've never allowed Jokic to wear Carmelo's number and Carmelo is a better basketball player...

[StrongLurk]

Jokic just had TWENTY rebounds in the first half tonight. Currently has 27/24/8...all this in only 32 minutes.

Seriously there has never been a player like Jokic. He is just as unique as a Lebron or Giannis. Really hope this dude gets a ring one day because he is easily one of the best offensive players ever. Basically a Dirk/Bird hybrid.

Bolded

[StrongLurk]

Jokic is GOATED. Best offensive player in the league for me and easily one of the best all time.

Dude has been a superstar every playoff run unlike the Sixers center.

:lol

I don't have a single wrong post in this thread.

[SouBeachTalents]

God damn I made so many good posts in this thread. Bolding this one for sure since I called it early. So many Jokic haters/casuals literally JUST realized this postseason Jokic took Carmelo's Denver number (15). I saw a ton of comments saying the Nugs should've never allowed Jokic to wear Carmelo's number and Carmelo is a better basketball player...
:oldlol: This is 3ball level douchiness, you should be better than that. And I'd like to see these comments of people in 2023 claiming Melo is better than Jokic, post links/screenshots of this.

[StrongLurk]

:oldlol: This is 3ball level douchiness, you should be better than that. And I'd like to see these comments of people in 2023 claiming Melo is better than Jokic, post links/screenshots of this.

Sorry, I agree it's douchiness but I've been on the Jokic bandwagon since the bubble.

Also should've been more clear, I saw a lot of people claiming the Nuggets version of Melo is better than Jokic. Come on..you know what crowd is saying this (MuH mIdRaNgE, PuRe HoOpEr crowd).

[StrongLurk]

The GOAT just continuing to do GOAT things.

This will Jokic's 5th year in a row (assuming healthy) that he has been the best player in the league. How many other players can say that?

[Carbine]

Kareem can say that.

MJ can say that.

Lebron can say it.

[StrongLurk]

MJ (88-93): 30.3 PER, 59.3 TS%, .288 WS/48, 11.2 BPM (8.5 OBPM, 2.8 DBPM)

Jokic (20-25): 31.6, 66.3 TS%, .301 WS/48, 13 BPM (9 OBPM, 4 DBPM)

GoatJokic straight raw-dogging MJ

[StrongLurk]

So, more than three years after my OP, Jokic is still continuing his GOAT-level peak.

Honestly just removing accolades, he's already one of the 10 best players of all time, probably top 5 honestly.

I'd take him over Bird and Magic any day of the week.

[tpols]

When I wake up every morning and have my morning coffee, I enter a deep silence, a meditation where I ponder on how in this infinite universe Stronglurk was able to enlighten us all with the knowledge of Jokic being an all time great basketball player in late 2023.

At the time young Nikola was just a boy, and to think he'd ever rise to the heights OP predicted is just... incredible. Nostradamus type stuff. Remarkable genius on a level rarely seen.

[StrongLurk]

When I wake up every morning and have my morning coffee, I enter a deep silence, a meditation where I ponder on how in this infinite universe Stronglurk was able to enlighten us all with the knowledge of Jokic being an all time great basketball player in late 2023.

At the time young Nikola was just a boy, and to think he'd ever rise to the heights OP predicted is just... incredible. Nostradamus type stuff. Remarkable genius on a level rarely seen.

Late 2023? The OP is December 2022 and no one was calling him GOAT-level except me. This is B4 his 2023 GOAT-ring and literally fans and sports media were still shitting on Jokic and claiming he was overrated and guys like Embiid were superior :roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

When I wake up every morning and have my morning coffee, I enter a deep silence, a meditation where I ponder on how in this infinite universe Stronglurk was able to enlighten us all with the knowledge of Jokic being an all time great basketball player in late 2023.

At the time young Nikola was just a boy, and to think he'd ever rise to the heights OP predicted is just... incredible. Nostradamus type stuff. Remarkable genius on a level rarely seen.
You have to give him credit, Jokic had only been a multiple MVP with GOAT tier production/metrics for several years, and OP called it. He will, justifiably, continue to bump his threads to remind the board of his profound wisdom of the game, and I just hope the posters on here take advantage by basking in the basketball acumen. It's honestly a wonderful thing, and I frankly don't appreciate the slighted sarcasm in your post.

[StrongLurk]

You have to give him credit, Jokic had only been a multiple MVP with GOAT tier production/metrics for several years, and OP called it. He will, justifiably, continue to bump his threads to remind the board of his profound wisdom of the game, and I just hope the posters on here take advantage by basking in the basketball acumen. It's honestly a wonderful thing, and I frankly don't appreciate the slighted sarcasm in your post.

You misunderstand. Jokic WAS underrated when I made this thread. Go read through the pages.

This was before Jok won a ring and there were still SO many people hating on him in the media and fanbase. Many fans and media members DID NOT think Jokic deserved both MVPs, despite him playing at a GOAT level.

We even saw the consequences of this when Embiid literally won a pity-MVP. That PROVED my entire premise correct.

Giannis won back-to-back MVPS, but no one had him GOAT-level because he simply isn't. Jokic actually DESERVED to be looked at as GOAT-level but people hated on him because he is a foreign player, "unathletic", and he went against all the "celebrity" culture that exists in the NBA.

[999Guy]

He's the only player in NBA history to have the actual impact of a triple double.

He gets a natural triple double.

He bangs down low and gets impactful rebounds, on offense that lead to put backs, he clears the paint and boxes everyone out on defense and really dominates the defensive glass.

His passing tremendous. Best pure passer in the league with his 10 assists, and he doesn't ball dominate to get those assists.

Then his 30 PPG is hyper efficient and dominant, drawing doubles and constant attention all over the court.

Westbrook never controlled the glass and neither did Oscar or Kidd. Though Kidd was amazing in other ways defensively.

[fourkicks44]

You misunderstand. Jokic WAS underrated when I made this thread. Go read through the pages.

This was before Jok won a ring and there were still SO many people hating on him in the media and fanbase. Many fans and media members DID NOT think Jokic deserved both MVPs, despite him playing at a GOAT level.

We even saw the consequences of this when Embiid literally won a pity-MVP. That PROVED my entire premise correct.

Giannis won back-to-back MVPS, but no one had him GOAT-level because he simply isn't. Jokic actually DESERVED to be looked at as GOAT-level but people hated on him because he is a foreign player, "unathletic", and he went against all the "celebrity" culture that exists in the NBA.

Who are you referring to? Beside Stephen A and Big Perk, Jokic is universally loved.

Pehaps he is the most widely loved superstar by the media. His popularity has shown in his MVP votes.

Who are these haters besides the two I mentioned?

[StrongLurk]

Who are you referring to? Beside Stephen A and Big Perk, Jokic is universally loved.

Pehaps he is the most widely loved superstar by the media. His popularity has shown in his MVP votes.

Who are these haters besides the two I mentioned?

Almost everyone in mainstream media when I made this thread in December 2022. Nick Wright was also a MASSIVE Jokic hater. Same with Brian Windhorst.

Im not going to dig up all the stuff I was seeing from 2021-2022, but so many people were skeptical about Jokic in the media (unfairly), and so many people tried to hang the "no rings" argument on Jokic's head.

EVERYTHING changed after Embiid won his pity-MVP in 2023 and when Jokic won his first ring shortly after. Jokic literally made the haters been the knee the same way Lebron has done.

[StrongLurk]

Dude is a top ten player of all time without question. Don't care about rings or team accomplishments. Take out Wilt, Bird, whoever, Jokic is better.

[Phoenix]

He doesn't need to get better. All I was saying is that I can imagine him becoming even better. Nash became better over 30. Not physically but as a player. One can argue that Kobe became better despite being less athletic at aroind the age of 30. Dirk was at his best as a 32-33 year-old. The way Jokic plays he can improve in some areas, one of them being looking to attack the basket more just like he did this last game. We shall see,

Crazy enough, he did especially from 3. And since his game is so low impact in terms of movement, he's likely to avoid any major injuries short of a freak one and be like this well through his late 30s if he plays that long.

[RRR3]

Dude is a top ten player of all time without question. Don't care about rings or team accomplishments. Take out Wilt, Bird, whoever, Jokic is better.
Maybe if you ignore defense.

[Akeem34TheDream]

He doesn't provide the vertical spacing that Gobert does

[tpols]

Maybe if you ignore defense.


And yet everybody ranks Magic as a top 10 GOAT so that doesn't disqualify anything.

[StrongLurk]

Maybe if you ignore defense.

Jokic is top 5 in steals and deflections this year. He clearly has improved on that end. He wont ever be a rim protector or all-nba caliber defender, but he doesn't need to be. Individual offense has always been more impactful than individual defense. A guy like Steve Nash (all O, no D) is far more impactful than a guy like Ben Wallace (no O, all D).

You also have to factor in how Jokic is one of the best rebounders of all time too. I'm a big Lebron guy, but Jokic at his peak might have surpassed him as the best scorer/passer/rebounder combo player ever. I understand this current era is the most offensive friendly and we don't exactly know how a peak Lebron or a peak Larry Bird would look, but Jokic is without question in consideration for the best ever scorer/passer/rebounder combo player.

I made the post below 2 and a half months ago and Jokic has only gotten better.

MJ (1988-1993): 30.3 PER, 59.3 TS%, .288 WS/48, 11.2 BPM (8.5 OBPM, 2.8 DBPM)

Jokic (2020-November 2025): 31.6, 66.3 TS%, .301 WS/48, 13 BPM (9 OBPM, 4 DBPM)

[1987_Lakers]

Since when did RRR3 become a Jokic hater? :lol

[RRR3]

Since when did RRR3 become a Jokic hater? :lol
Meltdown.

[1987_Lakers]

Jokic is top 5 in steals and deflections this year. He clearly has improved on that end. He wont ever be a rim protector or all-nba caliber defender, but he doesn't need to be. Individual offense has always been more impactful than individual defense. A guy like Steve Nash (all O, no D) is far more impactful than a guy like Ben Wallace (no O, all D).

You also have to factor in how Jokic is one of the best rebounders of all time too. I'm a big Lebron guy, but Jokic at his peak might have surpassed him as the best scorer/passer/rebounder combo player ever. I understand this current era is the most offensive friendly and we don't exactly know how a peak Lebron or a peak Larry Bird would look, but Jokic is without question in consideration for the best ever scorer/passer/rebounder combo player.

I made the post below 2 and a half months ago and Jokic has only gotten better.

MJ (1988-1993): 30.3 PER, 59.3 TS%, .288 WS/48, 11.2 BPM (8.5 OBPM, 2.8 DBPM)

Jokic (2020-November 2025): 31.6, 66.3 TS%, .301 WS/48, 13 BPM (9 OBPM, 4 DBPM)

His peak has already surpassed other peaks like Bird, Magic, Curry, Kobe & Duncan. You can make an argument for top 5 peak ever. This is how good he is.

MJ
LeBron
Shaq
Hakeem
Kareem

In terms of peak play. I would say Jokic is right with some of those guys.

[RRR3]

He hasn't surpassed Curry, simply does not warp the offense in the same way. No one does, and I'm a LeBron guy.

[StrongLurk]

His peak has already surpassed other peaks like Bird, Magic, Curry, Kobe & Duncan. You can make an argument for top 5 peak ever. This is how good he is.

MJ
LeBron
Shaq
Hakeem
Kareem

In terms of peak play. I would say Jokic is right with some of those guys.

Actually based on the data we have, only MJ and Lebron have the impact stats that are potentially better than Jokic's. So an argument can be made that Jokic has a top 3 peak of all time.

Of course the complication comes in when factoring in everyone played in different eras, with different rules, different expectations, different teams, different contracts/free agency, etc. How are we supposed to truly compare Jokic's peak to Duncan/Shaq's peaks when they played in the slowest, most court-clogged era EVER, compared to Jokic who plays in the most wide open era ever with the most player freedom ever? We honestly can't do it.

I'm just willing to put Jokic as a top 5 player ever since the 3-point inception (1980), and Jokic is the clear "GOAT" of this most recent era (2020-now). Give me MJ, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, Jokic as top 5.

[1987_Lakers]

He hasn't surpassed Curry, simply does not warp the offense in the same way. No one does, and I'm a LeBron guy.

Curry's play in the postseason for me is what turns me off. The fact that he is mostly a shooter (granted not only a shooter), he is bound to go cold at times, you saw it time and time again in the playoffs. While Jokic's play translates very well into the postseason. Jokic is also a superior playmaker, one of the best rebounders in the league, & a more impactful defender. The fact that he was able to revive Westbrook's career alone should tell you how good he is, nobody saw that coming.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fai_cwpo4dA

[1987_Lakers]

Meltdown.

Btw, I told you Trump would release those JFK files.

https://media.tenor.com/1hlTNcVLVS4AAAAM/jordan-shrug.gif

[RRR3]

Bringing up politics in the NBA section to deflect, DESPERATE. Yikes. Fatkic plays no defense.

[1987_Lakers]

Bringing up politics in the NBA section to deflect, DESPERATE. Yikes. Fatkic plays no defense.

:oldlol: Lighten up

[RRR3]

On a serious note, I just can't take his GOAT case seriously as a center who plays bad defense. Watch him play, he is ****ing lazy and slow on defense. He may be the best offensive player ever apart from Curry, and he's definitely the best offensive center ever, but as a big you really need to play defense to be in the GOAT discussion.

[1987_Lakers]

On a serious note, I just can't take his GOAT case seriously as a center who plays bad defense. Watch him play, he is ****ing lazy and slow on defense. He may be the best offensive player ever apart from Curry, and he's definitely the best offensive center ever, but as a big you really need to play defense to be in the GOAT discussion.

I don't think anyone here is calling him the GOAT though. I said arguable top 5 peak, poster after said top 3 peak. Unless someone stated earlier that he was GOAT, haven't really skimmed through this thread.

[RRR3]

I think we have to bear in mind the stat explosion, most of the best PER, VORP, BPM seasons are coming in the last few years. Efficiency has skyrocketed because of the lack of defense allowed by Silver, in comparison a guy like LeBron played a huge amount of his prime in a pretty defensively oriented era in comparison. Looking at the insane rate Giannis scores in this era, I can only imagine how much young LeBron would score, because Giannis is in many ways a worse version of peak LeBron (albeit bigger and less perimeter oriented). Genuinely think 09 LeBron is doing something like 34/10/10 on 66 TS% with DPOY defense today.

[HoopsNY]

I think we have to bear in mind the stat explosion, most of the best PER, VORP, BPM seasons are coming in the last few years. Efficiency has skyrocketed because of the lack of defense allowed by Silver, in comparison a guy like LeBron played a huge amount of his prime in a pretty defensively oriented era in comparison. Looking at the insane rate Giannis scores in this era, I can only imagine how much young LeBron would score, because Giannis is in many ways a worse version of peak LeBron (albeit bigger and less perimeter oriented). Genuinely think 09 LeBron is doing something like 34/10/10 on 66 TS% with DPOY defense today.

So now the era argument sticks. Gotchya.

[j3lademaster]

I think we have to bear in mind the stat explosion, most of the best PER, VORP, BPM seasons are coming in the last few years. Efficiency has skyrocketed because of the lack of defense allowed by Silver, in comparison a guy like LeBron played a huge amount of his prime in a pretty defensively oriented era in comparison. Looking at the insane rate Giannis scores in this era, I can only imagine how much young LeBron would score, because Giannis is in many ways a worse version of peak LeBron (albeit bigger and less perimeter oriented). Genuinely think 09 LeBron is doing something like 34/10/10 on 66 TS% with DPOY defense today.
Wouldn’t 09 Lebron’s defense be worse today? By your own admission “Silver no longer allows people to play defense”, so how is 09 Lebron supposed to magically get better on that end?

[tpols]

Can anybody crash a party like RRR3? :lol This guy can bring the vibe down ANYWHERE.

[RRR3]

Wouldn’t 09 Lebron’s defense be worse today? By your own admission “Silver no longer allows people to play defense”, so how is 09 Lebron supposed to magically get better on that end?
He'd be allowed to get away with less, but relative to league his impact on that end would still be great. Defenses are better than ever today, don't get me wrong, they have to be! But they are very hamstrung by the rules. You still see plenty of great defense but man the space you have to give offensive players is annoying.

[Hey Yo]

And yet everybody ranks Magic as a top 10 GOAT so that doesn't disqualify anything.

Easy slay was easy

[StrongLurk]

So now the era argument sticks. Gotchya.

Other posters have acknowledged the era difference too. In fact when I made this three over 3 years ago, I made multiple posts noting the era differences that had been forming since 2020, but really since 2017 too. 2017-2019 was sort of a transition phase, 2020 and beyond has been a true explosion of offensive efficiency.

[Duffy Pratt]

On a serious note, I just can't take his GOAT case seriously as a center who plays bad defense. Watch him play, he is ****ing lazy and slow on defense. He may be the best offensive player ever apart from Curry, and he's definitely the best offensive center ever, but as a big you really need to play defense to be in the GOAT discussion.

He’s not lazy on defense. He has active hands and feet. He tries to do close outs. The Nuggets have taken steps to mitigate his weakness in PnR situations.

There are two things now which lead people to still make this claim. First, he is a terrible rim protector. It’s just not part of his game. Second, but related, he doesn’t often challenge people who are driving the lane because him picking up a foul is worse for the team than letting the guy score. That makes him look lazy, when it’s simply an acknowledgement of what the smarter play is.

So yes, slow in some ways. But he’s not lazy.

[Neal Romer]

Since when did RRR3 become a Jokic hater? :lol

Jokic is a winner, and rrr3 is an enormous loser. It only makes sense.

[Neal Romer]

Also Jokic is actually top 5 in the league in steals, and his advanced defensive metrics are a bit above average. When they won the title they were very good, a few tenths of a point better than Giannis IIRC.

You can also tell with the eye test that while he concedes baskets that will only result in And1s anyway, he positions himself so that opponents get fewer of those opportunities. Opponents miss a lot of bunnies around the basket just by him standing there.

So if you actually have an IQ and see the games, you can see whats going on. But if you're a Jokic hater because you have a shit tier life a la rrr3 and highwey, the "hes so slow and bad defense!" is your cope to try and diminish him, albeit at the cost of embarrassing yourself even more than usual.

[SouBeachTalents]

https://x.com/statmuse/status/1882641046817157624?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1882641046817157624%7Ctwgr% 5Ed30f931244efe0da52bb20eae766fe36a197f4ef%7Ctwcon %5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.realgm.com%2Fboards%2 Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D2433640

This is a crazy stat :lol

[Neal Romer]

Crazy thing is Jokic leads the league by far in 'heave' attempts with 10 on the season. Theres a couple guys with six and a couple with five and then everyone else four or less. A while back he BATTED an inbounds pass volleyball style the full length of the court and actually came reasonably close.

I suspect hes been low key working on these shots, simply because there is nothing else to get better at. Hes gotten so good at the standard game that all there is left to tangibly improve are his full court buzzer beaters.

And the crazy thing is, there could be some playoff scenario where that actually pays off. The fact that he completed the last obscure piece of his development, the end of buzzer full court heave, could actually save a game for them at some point. Not that he can make the shot everytime, but if the practice increases his odds just by a littttttle bit... it could conceivably make the difference between winning or losing a chip.

[Im Still Ballin]

Crazy thing is Jokic leads the league by far in 'heave' attempts with 10 on the season. Theres a couple guys with six and a couple with five and then everyone else four or less. A while back he BATTED an inbounds pass volleyball style the full length of the court and actually came reasonably close.

I suspect hes been low key working on these shots, simply because there is nothing else to get better at. Hes gotten so good at the standard game that all there is left to tangibly improve are his full court buzzer beaters.

And the crazy thing is, there could be some playoff scenario where that actually pays off. The fact that he completed the last piece of his development, the end of buzzer full court heave, and it actually saves a game for them at some point. Not that he can make the shot everytime, but if the practice increases his odds just by a little bitttttt... it could conceivably make the difference between winning or losing a chip.

His dexterity (coordination of the fingers and hands) is about as good as it gets. He'd make a great surgeon.

[1987_Lakers]

https://x.com/statmuse/status/1882641046817157624?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5 Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1882641046817157624%7Ctwgr% 5Ed30f931244efe0da52bb20eae766fe36a197f4ef%7Ctwcon %5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fforums.realgm.com%2Fboards%2 Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D2433640

This is a crazy stat :lol

Rick Barry one caught me off guard. Wonder if they counted his ABA days.

[Im Still Ballin]

Did Jokic play water polo growing up? His ability to play with the ball above his head is the best I've ever seen.

Catches the ball like he's got glue on his hands. Doesn't need to dip on his shots at all because he shoots it behind his head. Makes passes from overhead like no one does. Perfectly blends these two together making it extremely difficult to predict what he's going to do.

Water polo. That's what it reminds me of.

https://media.tenor.com/NwuN4bENmIcAAAAM/goal-olympics.gif
https://gifdb.com/images/high/montenegro-water-polo-u2s2yl3q3bs2oon4.gif

[tontoz]

It is also odd how Jokic shoots his one legged shots of the wrong foot. Truly 1 of 1. Definitely the best 2nd round pick ever lol.

[Chuckbe]

Crazy thing is Jokic leads the league by far in 'heave' attempts with 10 on the season. Theres a couple guys with six and a couple with five and then everyone else four or less. A while back he BATTED an inbounds pass volleyball style the full length of the court and actually came reasonably close.

I suspect hes been low key working on these shots, simply because there is nothing else to get better at. Hes gotten so good at the standard game that all there is left to tangibly improve are his full court buzzer beaters.

And the crazy thing is, there could be some playoff scenario where that actually pays off. The fact that he completed the last obscure piece of his development, the end of buzzer full court heave, could actually save a game for them at some point. Not that he can make the shot everytime, but if the practice increases his odds just by a littttttle bit... it could conceivably make the difference between winning or losing a chip.

Only 10? LeBron has attempted 11 in the last 15 seasons :oldlol:

[ILLsmak]

I like dude, but some of you guys are close to slurping. It doesn’t help anyone see his uniqueness and talent to gush like that. It’s like when you turn on a game and all the announcers do is talk about one player regardless of what is happening.

Hard to see him as underrated in this thread.

-Smak

[StrongLurk]

I like dude, but some of you guys are close to slurping. It doesn’t help anyone see his uniqueness and talent to gush like that. It’s like when you turn on a game and all the announcers do is talk about one player regardless of what is happening.

Hard to see him as underrated in this thread.

-Smak

He's not underrated now, but he was 3 years ago when I made this thread. He was clearly starting a GOAT-level run yet the average fan and media member was shitting on him. He was putting up prime Lebron/MJ impact numbers and yet he was talked about less than even Tim Duncan was. There were clear reasons why this happened, but Jokic pretty much made EVERYONE take notice.

[sd3035]

At what point does he start entering the GOAT discussions?

[Phoenix]

He's not underrated now, but he was 3 years ago when I made this thread. He was clearly starting a GOAT-level run yet the average fan and media member was shitting on him. He was putting up prime Lebron/MJ impact numbers and yet he was talked about less than even Tim Duncan was. There were clear reasons why this happened, but Jokic pretty much made EVERYONE take notice.

Duncan's like a top 7-8 player in the history of the league. Saying Jokic back in 2022 was 'less than Tim Duncan' shouldn't be considered an insult. Even today, while Jokic obviously is a transcendent offensive talent and we're all prisoners of the moment, Duncan's impact as a two way force has few peers. He may be one of the few players you really can't nitpick much about his career.

[Micku]

It's really wild. I never seen a player like this.

Advance stats wise, he's up there or better than MJ/Lebron seasons. Of course stats don't show everything. And especially defense.

And with watching him when it comes to the eye test, I'm still in awe. I thought of him like a big Larry Bird. But the way he plays is refreshing and beautiful to watch on the offensive end. The way he moves without the ball with coming off screens as a center, his positioning with the post up, his pick and pop/roll game, his screens, his footwork...everything is elite. But his passing game is GOAT lvl. And there are times where it doesn't seem like he is doing much until he look at the stats and he has 17/7/7 in the first half. He doesn't even hold on to the ball for that long. He plays within the flow of the game.

Like Magic and Bird, dude could take less than 10 shots and still be the best player on the floor just because the way he controls the game.

If he was better defensively, I think he'll be the best player I ever seen. He isn't bad defensively, and has stepped up this month on that end. It just that Kareem, Lebron, MJ were all better two way players.

He doesn't get talked about as much as LeBron and Curry. Jokic doesn't want the attention, he plays in a small market, and he isn't from the USA. I do think Jokic is the best offensive player ever. It's wild to even say that because I saw Curry 16, LeBron, Magic and MJ. But Jokic is something else. This season period is goat lvl offense.

We're witness other great performances too. Giannis is amazing, SGA is the best two way guard since MJ/Kobe. Shame Luka and Embiid are hurt this season because they are great historically too. And Wemby is coming up.

[ILLsmak]

He's not underrated now, but he was 3 years ago when I made this thread. He was clearly starting a GOAT-level run yet the average fan and media member was shitting on him. He was putting up prime Lebron/MJ impact numbers and yet he was talked about less than even Tim Duncan was. There were clear reasons why this happened, but Jokic pretty much made EVERYONE take notice.

He's really good, and he's really unique. I am not ready to rate him all time, though. He's definitely one of the big names of his era, maybe the only real high impact player of this era so far.

-Smak

[90sgoat]

Denver backup crew sucks so bad though.

[White Hammer]

Since when did RRR3 become a Jokic hater? :lol

Last year rr3 discovered that Jokic is a “fascist” and the poor guy had no choice after that. He is morally obligated to fight fascism. Tearing down “Fatkic” every chance he gets is rr3’s version of punching a nazi. The basketball arguments don’t really matter; the entire thing is psychological for him like 3ball vs lebron.

[Phoenix]

At what point does he start entering the GOAT discussions?

No reason why we can't start talking about his place in history now and over the next 3-4 years. He's been in the league 10 years, has 3 MVPs, 1 ring/FMVP, 6 time All-NBA. There are guys we consider top 20 right now who neither peaked as high nor have the same level of accolades people deem important for these discussions.

[John8204]

At what point does he start entering the GOAT discussions?

Never....

If anything the discussion is how much BS the MVP's become when a 1 time champ who only made the finals once is being put in GOAT conversation.

Jerry made the finals 7 times in his first 10 seasons never got an MVP and he was by far the best two way player in the game.

Jokic will never crack my top four (Wilt, KAJ, Russell, Mikan)

[StrongLurk]

Never....

If anything the discussion is how much BS the MVP's become when a 1 time champ who only made the finals once is being put in GOAT conversation.

Jerry made the finals 7 times in his first 10 seasons never got an MVP and he was by far the best two way player in the game.

Jokic will never crack my top four (Wilt, KAJ, Russell, Mikan)

You have the worst top 4 I've ever seen.

[fourkicks44]

Almost everyone in mainstream media when I made this thread in December 2022. Nick Wright was also a MASSIVE Jokic hater. Same with Brian Windhorst.

Im not going to dig up all the stuff I was seeing from 2021-2022, but so many people were skeptical about Jokic in the media (unfairly), and so many people tried to hang the "no rings" argument on Jokic's head.

EVERYTHING changed after Embiid won his pity-MVP in 2023 and when Jokic won his first ring shortly after. Jokic literally made the haters been the knee the same way Lebron has done.

Windhorst legitimately gave Jokic first place votes for MVP. I don't think you can call him a hater even if he was critical of Jokic after a bad game as an unbiased sports reporter does from time time.

I think Stephen A, Perk and Wright are hardly "Almost everyone in mainstream media ". I have no problem with your OP premise in that Joker could be considered underrated in 2022 but to say he was widely hated in the media is horse shit.

[John8204]

You have the worst top 4 I've ever seen.

I'm talking about centers...my top four is MJ, Lebron, Wilt, Larry

KAJ, Magic, Bill, Mikan, Kobe, Oscar, Jerry, Duncan, Moses, Curry, Hakeem, Stockton, Dr. J, Dirk, Hondo, Pettit

PG - Magic, Oscar, Curry, Stockton (Frazier, CPIII, Kidd, Thomas, Archibald, Payton)
SG - MJ, Kobe, West (Gervin, Iverson, Wade, Maravich, Miller, Harden, Doncic)
SF - Bird, Dr. J, Hondo (Baylor, Barry, Durant. Kwahi, Arizin, Pierce, Pippen)
PF - Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, Pettit (Garnett, Barkley, Giannis, Malone, Mchale, Hayes)
C - Wilt, KAJ, Bill, Mikan, Moses, Hakeem, (Shaq, Jokic, Robinson, Thurmond)

[StrongLurk]

I'm talking about centers...my top four is MJ, Lebron, Wilt, Larry

KAJ, Magic, Bill, Mikan, Kobe, Oscar, Jerry, Duncan, Moses, Curry, Hakeem, Stockton, Dr. J, Dirk, Hondo, Pettit

PG - Magic, Oscar, Curry, Stockton (Frazier, CPIII, Kidd, Thomas, Archibald, Payton)
SG - MJ, Kobe, West (Gervin, Iverson, Wade, Maravich, Miller, Harden, Doncic)
SF - Bird, Dr. J, Hondo (Baylor, Barry, Durant. Kwahi, Arizin, Pierce, Pippen)
PF - Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, Pettit (Garnett, Barkley, Giannis, Malone, Mchale, Hayes)
C - Wilt, KAJ, Bill, Mikan, Moses, Hakeem, (Shaq, Jokic, Robinson, Thurmond)

Sorry but it's time to have two sets of top 10 GOATs. Pre-1980 (no 3-point line, mostly pre-ABA/NBA merger/expansion) and post-1980 (3-point line/modern evolution/global game).

It's literally impossible to come up with any standard criteria that can compare what was happening in the 50s/60s/70s to what happened in the last 30 years.

Feel free to do some exciting rankings that include Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Jerry, Elgin, Dr. J etc., but they are stuck in the "pre-modern" NBA.

[ILLsmak]

Sorry but it's time to have two sets of top 10 GOATs. Pre-1980 (no 3-point line, mostly pre-ABA/NBA merger/expansion) and post-1980 (3-point line/modern evolution/global game).

It's literally impossible to come up with any standard criteria that can compare what was happening in the 50s/60s/70s to what happened in the last 30 years.

Feel free to do some exciting rankings that include Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Jerry, Elgin, Dr. J etc., but they are stuck in the "pre-modern" NBA.

I think dr j sneaks in modern, but I don’t have him ranked haha.

-Smak

[John8204]

Sorry but it's time to have two sets of top 10 GOATs. Pre-1980 (no 3-point line, mostly pre-ABA/NBA merger/expansion) and post-1980 (3-point line/modern evolution/global game).

It's literally impossible to come up with any standard criteria that can compare what was happening in the 50s/60s/70s to what happened in the last 30 years.

Feel free to do some exciting rankings that include Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Oscar, Jerry, Elgin, Dr. J etc., but they are stuck in the "pre-modern" NBA.

I think it's pretty easy...divide the generations and positions

50-70 Wilt, Bill, Mikan, Oscar, West, Pettit. Havicek, Elgin, Arizin, Schayes
70-90 Bird, KAJ, Magic, Moses, Dr. J, Frazier. Barry, Gervin, Archibald, Thurmond
90-10 MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Stockton, Dirk, KG, Shaq, Barkley Iverson
10-25 Lebron, Curry, CPIII, Giannis, Durant, Jokic, Kwahi, Wade, Doncic, Carmello

The game changes every ten years...Jordan only had to play against US players. Lebron was able to move whenever his contract ran out. Kareem only had to play against half the best players in the world because of the ABA. The early generation guys had to be more well rounded because they had less than 100 jobs. The only constant in basketball is change you might not care about what came before you started watching but it still exists and has value.

[ILLsmak]

I think it's pretty easy...divide the generations and positions

50-70 Wilt, Bill, Mikan, Oscar, West, Pettit. Havicek, Elgin, Arizin, Schayes
70-90 Bird, KAJ, Magic, Moses, Dr. J, Frazier. Barry, Gervin, Archibald, Thurmond
90-10 MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Stockton, Dirk, KG, Shaq, Barkley Iverson
10-25 Lebron, Curry, CPIII, Giannis, Durant, Jokic, Kwahi, Wade, Doncic, Carmello

The game changes every ten years...Jordan only had to play against US players. Lebron was able to move whenever his contract ran out. Kareem only had to play against half the best players in the world because of the ABA. The early generation guys had to be more well rounded because they had less than 100 jobs. The only constant in basketball is change you might not care about what came before you started watching but it still exists and has value.

nah this new shit different. Some people have had success like old Bran and Curry, but there isn't really a superstar. There is a flawed guy like Giannis, but Jokic is on his own level. He isn't at all competing against anyone on that list except Giannis and Don. Even tho guys are still in the NBA, they aren't still GOAT level in any way. Some of them never were.

-Smak

[HoopsNY]

Other posters have acknowledged the era difference too. In fact when I made this three over 3 years ago, I made multiple posts noting the era differences that had been forming since 2020, but really since 2017 too. 2017-2019 was sort of a transition phase, 2020 and beyond has been a true explosion of offensive efficiency.

Yea but RRR3 doesn't. It's just interesting that he now is, but in a way to support his argument. I've tried to adjust for era in previous discussions with him and he just dismisses it. But for some reason, now it sticks.

[Phoenix]

I think it's pretty easy...divide the generations and positions

50-70 Wilt, Bill, Mikan, Oscar, West, Pettit. Havicek, Elgin, Arizin, Schayes
70-90 Bird, KAJ, Magic, Moses, Dr. J, Frazier. Barry, Gervin, Archibald, Thurmond
90-10 MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Stockton, Dirk, KG, Shaq, Barkley Iverson
10-25 Lebron, Curry, CPIII, Giannis, Durant, Jokic, Kwahi, Wade, Doncic, Carmello

The game changes every ten years...Jordan only had to play against US players. Lebron was able to move whenever his contract ran out. Kareem only had to play against half the best players in the world because of the ABA. The early generation guys had to be more well rounded because they had less than 100 jobs. The only constant in basketball is change you might not care about what came before you started watching but it still exists and has value.

How do you come up with a top 4 of MJ, Lebron, Wilt and Larry when by your own admission the game changes every decade( I would push that to about 15 years but the main point holds), and these guys were all at their best in different eras?

[SouBeachTalents]

How do you come up with a top 4 of MJ, Lebron, Wilt and Larry when by your own admission the game changes every decade( I would push that to about 15 years but the main point holds), and these guys were all at their best in different eras?
You've had enough interactions with that poster by now to know he's a troll, Seriously, look at that retarded array of rankings, why are you even asking him serious questions :lol

[StrongLurk]

I think it's pretty easy...divide the generations and positions

50-70 Wilt, Bill, Mikan, Oscar, West, Pettit. Havicek, Elgin, Arizin, Schayes
70-90 Bird, KAJ, Magic, Moses, Dr. J, Frazier. Barry, Gervin, Archibald, Thurmond
90-10 MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Hakeem, Stockton, Dirk, KG, Shaq, Barkley Iverson
10-25 Lebron, Curry, CPIII, Giannis, Durant, Jokic, Kwahi, Wade, Doncic, Carmello

The game changes every ten years...Jordan only had to play against US players. Lebron was able to move whenever his contract ran out. Kareem only had to play against half the best players in the world because of the ABA. The early generation guys had to be more well rounded because they had less than 100 jobs. The only constant in basketball is change you might not care about what came before you started watching but it still exists and has value.

I meant that you can't come up with a criteria that neatly fits all nba players within a top 10 list, which you seem to agree with. At a minimum we need two separate top 10 lists for old era and more modern era.

[Phoenix]

You've had enough interactions with that poster by now to know he's a troll, Seriously, look at that retarded array of rankings, why are you even asking him serious questions :lol

Yeah I know, it wasn't genuine engagement. Its like when I ask 3ball a 'serious' question, I do it more so I can laugh at the reply than any interest in actually discussing the topic. Or I like pointing out the contradictions within their own talking points. What can I say, it amuses me. :oldlol:

That John poster lost me at Stockton> Shaq.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah I know, it wasn't genuine engagement. Its like when I ask 3ball a 'serious' question, I do it more so I can laugh at the reply than any interest in actually discussing the topic. Or I like pointing out the contradictions within their own talking points. What can I say, it amuses me. :oldlol:

That John poster lost me at Stockton> Shaq.
I enjoyed CP3 as the 3rd best player of the last 15 years as well

[Phoenix]

I enjoyed CP3 as the 3rd best player of the last 15 years as well

Lol I didn't even notice that. I tend to gloss over his lists because I already know there's gonna be some wacky shit in there.

[John8204]

How do you come up with a top 4 of MJ, Lebron, Wilt and Larry when by your own admission the game changes every decade( I would push that to about 15 years but the main point holds), and these guys were all at their best in different eras?

Position wise...I consider Larry a Small Forward because he was a shoot first type player and Lebron a Power Foward because he was more of a ball handler point forward. So Jordan is the best shooting guard, Lebron the best PF, Wilt the best Center, and Magic as the best PG. I wouldn't have Magic strictly as the next player up because Kareem was a better player but they would be pretty close.


I enjoyed CP3 as the 3rd best player of the last 15 years as well

I think CPIII has a great case for number 3 over other players...who did better in Phoenix Chris Paul or Kevin Durant? Who did better with the Clippers, Chris Paul or Kwahi Leonard? Who did better in OKC Russell Westbrook and Paul George or Chris Paul? Who did better with James Harden, Joel Embiid, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook etc. I think very highly of Chris Paul and his ability to turn a team into contenders.




That John poster lost me at Stockton> Shaq.

I'm not 3Ball I don't post Shaq hate every week on this forum.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?510011-My-issues-with-Shaq-as-an-quot-all-time-quot-great

But if you want to get into why I would value Stockton over Shaq....well VORP, Value Over Replacement is a metric and Stockton is 3 all time behind Wilt and MJ. He's significantly higher than Shaq in +/- and win shares. Also Head to Head in the playoffs Stockton is 8-1 against Shaq.

[John8204]

Lol I didn't even notice that. I tend to gloss over his lists because I already know there's gonna be some wacky shit in there.

VORP
1. LeBron James 154.47
2. Michael Jordan* 116.05
3. John Stockton* 106.53
4. Karl Malone* 98.96
5. Chris Paul 98.46
6. Kevin Garnett* 96.86
7. Tim Duncan* 91.09
8. Kevin Durant 86.23
9. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 85.72
10. Dirk Nowitzki* 84.82

Win Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 273.41
2. LeBron James 267.57
3. Wilt Chamberlain* 247.26
4. Karl Malone* 234.63
5. Michael Jordan* 214.02
6. Chris Paul 213.33
7. John Stockton* 207.70
8. Tim Duncan* 206.38
9. Dirk Nowitzki* 206.34
10. Kevin Garnett* 191.42

Plus/Minus

. Nikola Jokić 10.19
2. Michael Jordan* 9.21
3. LeBron James 8.57
4. Magic Johnson* 7.54
5. David Robinson* 7.47
6. Larry Bird* 6.89
7. John Stockton* 6.84
8. Chris Paul 6.75
9. Kawhi Leonard 6.61
10. Giannis Antetokounmpo 6.57

Which begs the question...if Jokic's plus minus is so important why are you guys crapping on Stockton and Paul who are also top ten in the same category?

[Phoenix]

VORP
1. LeBron James 154.47
2. Michael Jordan* 116.05
3. John Stockton* 106.53
4. Karl Malone* 98.96
5. Chris Paul 98.46
6. Kevin Garnett* 96.86
7. Tim Duncan* 91.09
8. Kevin Durant 86.23
9. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 85.72
10. Dirk Nowitzki* 84.82

Win Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 273.41
2. LeBron James 267.57
3. Wilt Chamberlain* 247.26
4. Karl Malone* 234.63
5. Michael Jordan* 214.02
6. Chris Paul 213.33
7. John Stockton* 207.70
8. Tim Duncan* 206.38
9. Dirk Nowitzki* 206.34
10. Kevin Garnett* 191.42

Plus/Minus

. Nikola Jokić 10.19
2. Michael Jordan* 9.21
3. LeBron James 8.57
4. Magic Johnson* 7.54
5. David Robinson* 7.47
6. Larry Bird* 6.89
7. John Stockton* 6.84
8. Chris Paul 6.75
9. Kawhi Leonard 6.61
10. Giannis Antetokounmpo 6.57

Which begs the question...if Jokic's plus minus is so important why are you guys crapping on Stockton and Paul who are also top ten in the same category?

Well for one I haven't said anything about Jokic plus minus. But since you want to apply those metrics above, Stockton and Chris Paul would be top 10 players all time since they're top 10 in those categories, right? If that's not the case, then clearly alot more goes into how we measure the greatness of these players than these categories. I mean, plus minus has David Robinson over Bird, the latter whom you have in your top 4 (and Bird is nowhere on the others lists above). Karl Malone is 4th in VORP and Win shares,yet he's way down on your list of PFs in post #171 and nowhere near as high on the GOAT list as those metrics would suggest( or rather, as you're applying those metrics to make a case for Stockton).

That's the problem with using such blanket metrics to make a case for whoever you want to argue for. They often don't hold up across the board and can lead to unintended consequences elsewhere.

[Phoenix]

Position wise...I consider Larry a Small Forward because he was a shoot first type player and Lebron a Power Foward because he was more of a ball handler point forward. So Jordan is the best shooting guard, Lebron the best PF, Wilt the best Center, and Magic as the best PG. I wouldn't have Magic strictly as the next player up because Kareem was a better player but they would be pretty close.



That doesn't answer my question. Earlier you said this....

"The game changes every ten years...Jordan only had to play against US players. Lebron was able to move whenever his contract ran out. Kareem only had to play against half the best players in the world because of the ABA. The early generation guys had to be more well rounded because they had less than 100 jobs. The only constant in basketball is change you might not care about what came before you started watching but it still exists and has value."

Again....with all of that said above how are you able to then come up with a top 4 of Lebron, MJ, Bird and Wilt when they all played in different eras( there's some overlap with Bird and MJ but Larry is more 80s and Jordan 90s) and played with different advantages and disadvantages? I'm not talking about their positions, I'm talking about what you said immediately above. One can draw from that is that it's extremely hard to rank players especially across eras, yet you've done it anyway so like most people you apply subjective criteria as much as objective depending on what viewpoint you want to push. When you want to push something like Stockton> Shaq, you search on basketball reference for whatever advanced metrics uphold that viewpoint, but you don't apply those metrics evenly because if you did your own rankings across the board wouldn't hold up.

[RRR3]

Well for one I haven't said anything about Jokic plus minus. But since you want to apply those metrics above, Stockton and Chris Paul would be top 10 players all time since they're top 10 in those categories, right? If that's not the case, then clearly alot more goes into how we measure the greatness of these players than these categories. I mean, plus minus has David Robinson over Bird, the latter whom you have in your top 4 (and Bird is nowhere on the others lists above). Karl Malone is 4th in VORP and Win shares,yet he's way down on your list of PFs in post #171 and nowhere near as high on the GOAT list as those metrics would suggest( or rather, as you're applying those metrics to make a case for Stockton).

That's the problem with using such blanket metrics to make a case for whoever you want to argue for. They often don't hold up across the board and can lead to unintended consequences elsewhere.
VORP and win shares are also cumulative stats, definitely always gonna favor guys like Malone, Stockton, and CP3 who were at minimum good players for like 20 ****ing years in comparison to someone like Bird or Magic who didn't play that long and had even shorter at their peak. No one is probably ever catching LeBron in VORP for this reason, although LeBron is actually a GOAT candidate. I'd probably rank CP3 a lot higher than most would though, personally, Malone and Stockton I can't because they were suspect in the playoffs. For all CP3's playoff criticisms, he's always produced at his normal rate in the playoffs, Malone and Stockton were playoff droppers which kind of insinuates you are beating up on bad teams in terms of your stats.

[John8204]

Well for one I haven't said anything about Jokic plus minus. But since you want to apply those metrics above, Stockton and Chris Paul would be top 10 players all time since they're top 10 in those categories, right? If that's not the case, then clearly alot more goes into how we measure the greatness of these players than these categories. I mean, plus minus has David Robinson over Bird, the latter whom you have in your top 4 (and Bird is nowhere on the others lists above). Karl Malone is 4th in VORP and Win shares,yet he's way down on your list of PFs in post #171 and nowhere near as high on the GOAT list as those metrics would suggest( or rather, as you're applying those metrics to make a case for Stockton).

That's the problem with using such blanket metrics to make a case for whoever you want to argue for. They often don't hold up across the board and can lead to unintended consequences elsewhere.

No single metric should be judged as an end all be all, for me it's when players show up in multiple categories. I probably should rank K.Malone higher but a lot of the stuff he did has become less impressive as the years have gone by. Also growing up watching them play I always considered Charles to be better than Karl. One of the big knocks I would have with Malone was at the time 30K was a big deal but now that bench mark has been crossed by Lebron, Dirk, Kobe, Shaq, and Carmello and it's going to be passed by Durant, Harden, Doncic and who else. Somebody averaging 14 APG and leading the league 9 straight seasons..that's not going to happen.

The difference is I'm not going to tell anyone their crazy or wacky if they want to rank Karl in the top 20/10

[John8204]

That doesn't answer my question. Earlier you said this....

"The game changes every ten years...Jordan only had to play against US players. Lebron was able to move whenever his contract ran out. Kareem only had to play against half the best players in the world because of the ABA. The early generation guys had to be more well rounded because they had less than 100 jobs. The only constant in basketball is change you might not care about what came before you started watching but it still exists and has value."

Again....with all of that said above how are you able to then come up with a top 4 of Lebron, MJ, Bird and Wilt when they all played in different eras( there's some overlap with Bird and MJ but Larry is more 80s and Jordan 90s) and played with different advantages and disadvantages? I'm not talking about their positions, I'm talking about what you said immediately above. One can draw from that is that it's extremely hard to rank players especially across eras, yet you've done it anyway so like most people you apply subjective criteria as much as objective depending on what viewpoint you want to push. When you want to push something like Stockton> Shaq, you search on basketball reference for whatever advanced metrics uphold that viewpoint, but you don't apply those metrics evenly because if you did your own rankings across the board wouldn't hold up.

You have to draw a line somewhere I consider Larry more of an 80's player than a 90's. Things are open for interpretation...Bird and Jordan did play against each other and in the playoffs Jordan never beat Bird. Now I could rank Bird ahead of Jordan but Jordan had other things going for him. No metric can be evenly judged over time different generations had different situations.

Sociology is also a science and kind of a factor here. My issue with Shaq and Shaq is when people talk about him it always feel anecdotal. Oh he was the most dominant player you ever saw, well my counter point would be for a guy so dominant he got swept a lot. He was also only able to win when playing with other MVP's and he wasn't great at that either. I'm more inclined to take players who stuck around on one team than someone who bounces around and doesn't have success.

Which brings me to Chris Paul, you see Chris Paul showing up on these lists. We all saw how Chris performed when he switches teams.

But I reject the notion that we should quantify older players because it's to hard or it won't be equitable. I'd like to think we live in a world with different opinions.

[GOBB]

Dude is basically Dirk Nowitzki but with elite PG passing abilities added on. Even though he hasn't made a finals yet, he has always been a superstar in the playoffs.

Last three regular seasons averages (170 games).
Jokic: 26.4/12/8.2 with only 3.5 turnovers per game. 32.1 PER, 66 TS%, 12.8 BPM

I understand the league is very offensive friendly now, but the Joker is annihilating everyone on offense. His advanced stats look like prime MJ/Lebron level. If he was a black American and athletic (more exciting playstyle), he'd be in GOAT talks. I still see many people act like Embiid is better than Jokic, which is very odd since Embiid has accomplished less than Joker and is definitely a worse playoff performer.

Jokic has zero personality for starters. For the avg fan to gravitate to you? You must have some type of personality. You have to relate to the avg nba fan in some way as well. Jokic fails at all of this. In fact he’s one of the euros who isn’t pressured to promote, push the NBA like other American star players are held to do. Him and Luka can just hoop and disappear. People like you want him to be the face of the league or the guy that carries the league. But he does zero for the actual NBA brand. He rarely talks, you hardly see him. But if he were black he be popular homie. Real talk son. To debunk this moronic take Tom Duncan had zero personality as well. Too reserved/quiet. KG is outgoing, animated. He drew avg nba fans to him. That’s how that works. You don’t get to be an introvert with no marketability, giving off a non care attitude to promote the game you play. And be well received by the avg nba fan. If he was black he be Tim Duncan. And your next narrative would be “if he were black and acted ghetto he be more popular”.

You fans got to stop this nonsense here.

Jokic won an nba championship and gave off the most I couldn’t care less attitude/vibe I’ve ever seen him an athlete. He shrugged off a parade in Denver. A place that doesn’t get to see man titles. A place that superstars do not sign to play for. He said I want to go home and play with my horsies. Home being overseas not anywhere in America. Euros get off easy not being held to the same standard as American star players to PROMOTE and PUSH the nba brand/logo. Him and Luka get to go home and chug beers and wrestle siblings in the living room while grandmom cooks. Give me a break. Here are the endorsements Jokic reps…

361°: Jokić signed a multi-year deal with the Chinese sports brand in late 2023. He will develop and wear shoes for the brand, including his first signature shoe.
Panini: Jokić has a deal with the trading card company.
Somborac: Jokić has a deal with the Serbian fruit brandy company.
Western Union: Jokić has a deal with the financial services company.
Hotels.com: Jokić appeared in a commercial for the hotel company


What? Hahahaha


Your take on Melo is silly. Melo has relatability to the avg nba fan. You see Melo at basketball camps. You see Melo in the communities be it where he plays or at home. Melo is out and about with the people. Not a hard concept to grasp here. Jokic is not underrated in any sense of the word.


If Anthony Edwards was quiet, reserved. Had a non chalaant attitude towards the league outside the nba. Dunked and handed the ball to ref. Scored on KD and didn’t utter a word. No post game trash talk. Guess what? Ready for this? He’d have less avg nba fans than he does being who he is today. Shocker I know.

[Phoenix]

VORP and win shares are also cumulative stats, definitely always gonna favor guys like Malone, Stockton, and CP3 who were at minimum good players for like 20 ****ing years in comparison to someone like Bird or Magic who didn't play that long and had even shorter at their peak. No one is probably ever catching LeBron in VORP for this reason, although LeBron is actually a GOAT candidate. I'd probably rank CP3 a lot higher than most would though, personally, Malone and Stockton I can't because they were suspect in the playoffs. For all CP3's playoff criticisms, he's always produced at his normal rate in the playoffs, Malone and Stockton were playoff droppers which kind of insinuates you are beating up on bad teams in terms of your stats.

Good point. I actually do think very highly of CP3 but I can't roll with the idea that he was the third best player of the past 15 years, which is John's contention. Lebron, Steph and KD are inarguable, as are Giannis and Jokic. Kawhi was better peak for peak but he's hard to rank and injuries have become as much a part of his legacy as his accolades. I don't like Harden's style and he's always been a relative playoff underperformer, but his name at least warrants a mention in a discussion about the 10-15 best players of the last 15 years. You also got someone like D.Wade who peaked higher, won a chip with FMVP to boot. I'm probably forgetting a few obvious names in there, but it's early and I'm just on my first coffee lol.


No single metric should be judged as an end all be all, for me it's when players show up in multiple categories. I probably should rank K.Malone higher but a lot of the stuff he did has become less impressive as the years have gone by. Also growing up watching them play I always considered Charles to be better than Karl. One of the big knocks I would have with Malone was at the time 30K was a big deal but now that bench mark has been crossed by Lebron, Dirk, Kobe, Shaq, and Carmello and it's going to be passed by Durant, Harden, Doncic and who else. Somebody averaging 14 APG and leading the league 9 straight seasons..that's not going to happen.

The difference is I'm not going to tell anyone their crazy or wacky if they want to rank Karl in the top 20/10

I think alot would say Charles was better, I'm in that category as well. That's talking peak for peak. But they're close enough to where Malone's GOAT ranking is going to be higher for most due to longevity. That would be the major point of separation with those two.

I would say all 30k numbers aren't equal. You had guys who did it without the 3pointer and those for which it's a major component of their games. A few of those guys also came into the NBA as teenagers and due to modern science are playing longer than past players. KD ,Lebron and Steph all dropping 25ppg past 35 is pretty much something only MJ did, in recent memory. Alot of guys by mid thirties were done or not remotely producing like they were in their primes. It just is what it is, as long as it's contextualized.


You have to draw a line somewhere I consider Larry more of an 80's player than a 90's. Things are open for interpretation...Bird and Jordan did play against each other and in the playoffs Jordan never beat Bird. Now I could rank Bird ahead of Jordan but Jordan had other things going for him. No metric can be evenly judged over time different generations had different situations.

Sociology is also a science and kind of a factor here. My issue with Shaq and Shaq is when people talk about him it always feel anecdotal. Oh he was the most dominant player you ever saw, well my counter point would be for a guy so dominant he got swept a lot. He was also only able to win when playing with other MVP's and he wasn't great at that either. I'm more inclined to take players who stuck around on one team than someone who bounces around and doesn't have success.

Which brings me to Chris Paul, you see Chris Paul showing up on these lists. We all saw how Chris performed when he switches teams.

But I reject the notion that we should quantify older players because it's to hard or it won't be equitable. I'd like to think we live in a world with different opinions.

I did say Bird was more 80s and MJ 90s even though their careers crossed paths. You're regurgitating my point at me for whatever reason. :confusedshrug:

It's weird to say Shaq's dominance was 'anecdotal'. Millions of us saw him 25 years ago and we mostly all came to the same conclusion. 'Anecdotal' is more of a personal account that isn't shared by many others, but we all saw Shaq in 2000 to speak to his dominance, so I don't think anecdotal is the word you want. Overstated? Overrated? Shaq had his weaknesses, namely free throws and the fact that as a traditional big he needed guards to feed him the ball. The flipside is you couldn't do anything with him for 46 minutes and he was fouling out entire frontlines which compromised your team defense. He sucked so much defensive gravity towards the rim which opened up the perimeter. Saying he didn't do much without elite guards goes down the rabbit hole of looking at every past great who won with other all-time greats by their side. If you don't diminish MJ for winning with Pippen, Bird for winning with Mchale and Parish, Magic winning with Kareem, then you're unfairly diminishing Shaq for playing with Kobe and Wade.

It's also odd that you say you're inclined to take players who stuck around with one team as a knock on Shaq, but not on CP3 who has played on 7 teams and most notably Lebron who you have in your top 4 despite playing on 4 teams. Which is the issue with your takes, not the surface opinion but the underlying logic and more specifically the contradictions. What you use to knock Shaq isn't an issue with another player you prefer, and you have a 3ball-like ability to weasel around such contradictions so you always give yourself an out. It's pretty transparent.

As for how to argue for older players, nobody is saying that we don't live in a world with differing opinions. My point with the metrics you use is that they apply evenly, and if they don't apply evenly then its a flawed way to argue and/or you need to use other criteria but it's all subjective. You don't just throw out VORP, Winshare and +/- numbers when you think it suites the argument, then recoil from it when it doesn't and trot out reductive 'we all have opinions' when yours is challenged.

[John8204]

I can certainly understand why someone would take Kevin Durant over Chris Paul. But Chris Paul went to the finals with Deandre Ayton and Devin Booker while Kevin Durant couldn't win with James Harden and Kyrie Irving. Chris Paul is an elevator he goes to franchises and teams that can't win and puts them into contention...Shaq left Penny, and Kobe and Dwayne and Nash and Lebron. CPIII is near 40 joined a 20 win team and is top 10 in APG and the team is on pace to double it's win total. And here's where we get into the anecdotal part...you go back to 2000 and you see Shaq as a dominant force. I go back to 2000 I remember it took him 7 games and shady officiating to beat Portland. For all the talk about how dominant Shaq was...he pretty much only won when had an easy draw. It's not like he was Bill Walton taking out Kareem and Dr. J in back to back series.

And generally speaking I do hold players that stick around with one franchise for the majority of their careers. I'm always going to support a Reggie Miller or John Stockton or Dirk Nowitzki who puts in the work. I also think in 10 years CPIII will drop down for this generation to about five behind Doncic and Giannis, but they haven't gotten there yet.

[Phoenix]

I can certainly understand why someone would take Kevin Durant over Chris Paul. But Chris Paul went to the finals with Deandre Ayton and Devin Booker while Kevin Durant couldn't win with James Harden and Kyrie Irving. Chris Paul is an elevator he goes to franchises and teams that can't win and puts them into contention...Shaq left Penny, and Kobe and Dwayne and Nash and Lebron. CPIII is near 40 joined a 20 win team and is top 10 in APG and the team is on pace to double it's win total. And here's where we get into the anecdotal part...you go back to 2000 and you see Shaq as a dominant force. I go back to 2000 I remember it took him 7 games and shady officiating to beat Portland. For all the talk about how dominant Shaq was...he pretty much only won when had an easy draw. It's not like he was Bill Walton taking out Kareem and Dr. J in back to back series.

And generally speaking I do hold players that stick around with one franchise for the majority of their careers. I'm always going to support a Reggie Miller or John Stockton or Dirk Nowitzki who puts in the work. I also think in 10 years CPIII will drop down for this generation to about five behind Doncic and Giannis, but they haven't gotten there yet.

You say this knowing that there were alot of off-court things with the Brooklyn roster that really ain't on KD. Let's also not forget that KD did go to the finals in 2012 with a young Westbrook and Harden. You say Chris Paul went to the finals with Devon Booker and Ayton as if those two aren't all-star level players in their own right. Booker was all-NBA first team, for starters. Ayton was 17/10. Mikael Bridges was runner-up DPOY. But sure, let's act like CP3 took a team of nobodies to the finals. CP3 is absolutely a floor raiser but he's had 20 years to show us that he can be the best player on a championship team.

As for Shaq 'taking 7 games to beat Portland', you do realize that Blazers roster with Pippen, Wallace, Stoudamire, Steve Smith, Sabonis etc was the most talented team that year and probably one of the best teams to never win a title, right? You realize that if Shaq isn't on that team in 2000, the Lakers are some lower seed playoff team that at best would be first round roadkill. Also, the Orlando Magic won 21 games the year before Shaq got there. His rookie season, 41 wins... a 20 game improvement and he was the only notable addition. 3 years later they're in the finals. The Lakers are decent at best in 96, Shaq goes there and 4 years later they're winning a title with a young Kobe( Kobe in 2000 was very good but not 'prime'). He joins the Heat in 2004 who won 42 games, two years later he's winning a chip with Wade. But let's act like every team Shaq joined in his prime didn't immediate improve and jump into title contention. You're so pre-occupied with your quest to be contrarian with Shaq that you overlook the reality that those teams aren't remotely close to being title contenders if he's not on the roster. Yes, he had his flaws as I mentioned before but once again you have a very biased and over-critical view of his career. Just admit you don't like the guy for whatever reason and call it a day, instead of blatantly disingenuous talking points. You may actually be taken more seriously because as of now, you just come off as really being full of shit with alot of your takes.

Gonna let you in on a little secret. Giannis with two MVPs, DPOY, a title(won over CP3) and FMVP and multiple All-NBA selections is already ahead of Chris Paul, as a player and on the GOAT ladder. AND Greek beat him heads up in the finals. PLUS he's played on one team( so far) his entire career which you say you prefer( except when it applies to CP3 playing for 7 teams, apparently). All your talking points favor Giannis, but once again you trip over your own contradictions. Don't be deluded into thinking Paul playing for longer warrants a higher ranking, because that would be the only possible talking point you could have and it's not a good one.

[StrongLurk]

Have to bump this thread again from 3 years ago.

We got dumbasses trying to claim Hakeem > Jokic in my other thread which proves THIS thread correct. Jokic is STILL underrated.

He's literally GOAT-tier, as GOAT-tier as Lebron was in his early career.

No one was trying to claim Hakeem was better than Lebron by 2013. Same thing should be happening to Jokic in 2025.