Supporting cast battle - 2006 Cavs vs. 1988 Bulls

[3ba11]

Which cast is better in their 3rd healthy seasons? (88' MJ vs 06' Lebron)

[SouBeachTalents]

Easily the Bulls.

[Axe]

No pip?

[ShawkFactory]

The Cavs second option wasn’t an all star. Hughes played MAYBE 30 games?

But overall I’d say the Bulls were a bit better. What does it matter? Both won the first round against .500 teams and lost against better ones.

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-15-2021/t3TEzx.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-15-2021/LIlDOj.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-15-2021/FTQN7K.gif






The Cavs second option wasn’t an all star.





Zydrunas was a 2x all-star (03' and 05'), so he was the reigning East all-star center heading into the 2006 season, while Hughes was a 22/6/5 First Defensive Team steals champ acquisition and coveted by Lebron (above)

Btw, the Cavs' go-to play in crunch time was the pick-n-pop with Z - so he was a sophisticated go-to big that would fit in today's game

[ShawkFactory]

I just looked it up. Hughes played 36 games. That’s less than half the season just in case you don’t math well.

The Cavs had a slightly better cast. Doesn’t matter. Both won in the first round and lost against better teams in the second.

[3ba11]

I just looked it up. Hughes played 36 games. That’s less than half the season just in case you don’t math well.

The Cavs had a slightly better cast. Doesn’t matter. Both won in the first round and lost against better teams in the second.


Jordan was drafted to Woolridge's team - Woolridge was the 6th pick in 81' and he led the Bulls to 28 wins by 84'.

After Jordan averaged 44 against the 86' Celtics, the Bulls let Woolridge go for nothing (draft picks (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/woolror01.html#all_transactions)) and made Jordan start over from scratch - that's why he only won 40 games in 87' with a rebounder (Oakley) as his sidekick and then 50 games during his 3rd healthy season in 88' (MVP/DPOY).

Otoh, since Lebron had an all-star center, elite acquisitions, and 3 years to develop his cast before entering the 06' playoffs as a veteran high seed, he never carried an inexperienced cast devoid of go-to players and accolade like MJ did in 88'.

We've already established that Lebron needed elite spacing help in 2009 for his game to be MVP and have a contender

[ShawkFactory]

Jordan was drafted to Woolridge's team - Woolridge was the 6th pick in 81' and he led the Bulls to 28 wins by 84'.

After Jordan averaged 44 against the 86' Celtics, the Bulls let Woolridge go for nothing (draft picks (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/woolror01.html#all_transactions)) and made Jordan start over from scratch - that's why he only won 40 games in 87' with a rebounder (Oakley) as his sidekick and then 50 games during his 3rd healthy season in 88' (MVP/DPOY).

Otoh, since Lebron had an all-star center, elite acquisitions, and 3 years to develop his cast before entering the 06' playoffs as a veteran high seed, he never carried an inexperienced cast devoid of go-to players and accolade like MJ did in 88'.

They both beat completely average teams in the first round and lost to better teams in the second.

Nothing to see here..

[3ba11]

They both beat completely average teams in the first round and lost to better teams in the second.

Nothing to see here..


Lebron's cast was far better, especially relative to his Eastern competition - Lebron never carried a rookie cast devoid of go-to players and accolade like MJ did in 88' or 89'.

Lebron was barely .500 in his 5th healthy season (08') before elite spacing arrived to make his stiff arm capable of MVP and a contender

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron's cast was far better, especially relative to his Eastern competition - Lebron never carried a rookie cast devoid of go-to players and accolade like MJ did in 88' or 89'.

Lebron was barely .500 in his 5th healthy season (08') before elite spacing arrived to make his stiff arm capable of MVP and a contender

The Cavs won 17 games in 2003 with a SRS of -9.37. Literally one of the worst teams ever.

[3ba11]

The Cavs won 17 games in 2003 with a SRS of -9.37. Literally one of the worst teams ever.


The legendary Paul Silas (RIP) took over for John Locus in 04' and Lebron had 3 years to develop this team into a veteran high seed before entering the 06' playoffs - this included diluting the opposition by taking their 22/6/5 all-defender sidekick (he stole Arenas' sidekick and then beat him with it).





The Cavs won 17 games in 2003 with a SRS of -9.37. Literally one of the worst teams ever.


From the original 2006 blog on SRS (https://web.archive.org/web/20180531115621/https://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/index4837.html?p=37):



So every team's rating is their average point margin, adjusted up or down depending on the strength of their opponents. Thus an average team would have a rating of zero. Suppose a team plays a schedule that is, overall, exactly average. Then the sum of the terms in parentheses would be zero and the team's rating would be its average point margin. **If a team played a tougher-than-average schedule, the sum of the terms in parentheses would be positive and so a team's rating would be bigger than its average point margin**


so if we just replace "tougher schedule" in the starred, italicized portion above with "weaker schedule", we can see what happens to SRS in a historically-weak conference like Lebron had in 2003 - as you can see, a weaker schedule/conference lowers SRS.. That's why many teams from 2003 had lower SRS than the 84' Bulls, who had the worst SRS in the league in 84' - it proves how much tougher the league was back in 84'.

Furthermore, the SRS of Jordan's Eastern playoff opponents from 85-98' was 2.68 compared to 1.81 for Lebron's Eastern opponent's from 06-18' - that's nearly 50% better opposition (source (https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-18-2021/MXQa8S.gif)).

But most importantly and relevant to this thread, management could tell that prime Jordan could handle starting from scratch so they removed Woolridge and Gervin from a -3.1 SRS team after the 86' season (the SRS was much worse if we remove the 9-9 stretch that Jordan played) - this gave Jordan a worse playoff cast in 88' than Lebron ever had, since Lebron had 3 years to develop his cast into a veteran high seed of decorated players.. Lebron simply never had to carry a rookie team of low-producers and accolade-less players like Jordan did in 88'.

[ShawkFactory]

So...the 03 Cavs won 17 games in historically weak conference.

You do such a great job of making my point :lol

[Hey Yo]

The Cavs won 17 games in 2003 with a SRS of -9.37. Literally one of the worst teams ever.

Cavs had 10 wins at the break with All-star, Big Z.

[3ba11]

You do such a great job of making my point :lol





But that wasn't the team Lebron entered the playoffs with

Jordan had to carry the -4 SRS team from 84' in the 85' Playoffs

or he carried his -3 SRS team from 86' minus Woolridge/Gervin (team starting over) in the 87-88' Playoffs

meanwhile, Lebron had 3 years to develop into a veteran high seed of all-stars, all-defenders, opponent sidekicks, top 5 defenses and future COY's before entering the 06'-07' Playoffs.

[ShawkFactory]

But that wasn't the team Lebron entered the playoffs with

Jordan had to carry the -4 SRS team from 84' in the 85' Playoffs

or he carried his -3 SRS team from 86' minus Woolridge/Gervin in the 87-88' Playoffs

meanwhile, Lebron had 3 years to develop into a veteran high seed of all-stars, all-defenders, opponent sidekicks, top 5 defenses and future COY's before entering the 06'-07' Playoffs.

Yea.

Others did that under Dean Smith.

[3ba11]

Yea.

Others did that under Dean Smith.


Lebron never developed even after the 3 years - he was barely .500 in his 5th healthy season (2008) before he received the elite spacing help that his stiff arm needs for MVP and a contender.

Meanwhile, Jordan was nearly winning the title in his 5th healthy season (90') with a zero percentile cast, according to Ben Taylor (better than zero percent of casts) - his 90' cast featured the #19 defense (#3 for the 09' Cavs), while Pippen was lower across the board offensively than Mo (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, scoring, efficiency).. So Lebron started with a better cast on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles by winning in 91', while Lebron lost as the favorite again in 10' and 11'.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron never developed even after the 3 years - he was barely .500 in his 5th healthy season (2008) before he received the elite spacing help that his stiff arm needs for MVP and a contender.

Meanwhile, Jordan was nearly winning the title in his 5th healthy season (90') with a zero percentile cast, according to Ben Taylor (better than zero percent of casts) - his 90' cast featured the #19 defense (#3 for the 09' Cavs), while Pippen was lower across the board offensively than Mo (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, scoring, efficiency).. So Lebron started with a better cast on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles by winning in 91', while Lebron lost as the favorite again in 10' and 11'.

:oldlol:

Jesus Christ.

[Phoenix]

Pippen was lower across the board offensively than Mo (PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, scoring, efficiency).

To be clear, you use those metrics to say Mo was better than Pippen... yeah?

[3ba11]

:oldlol:

Jesus Christ.


See how it all flows together

Guys that need more help to win and can't win with secondary producers like Worthy, Porzingas, Brunson, Mo Williams, Ingram, Jamison, Hughes or Zydrunas invariably play the same - they're ball-dominators...

Otoh, the guys that can win with secondary producers like Wiggins, Pippen, Lowry, Terry, or Pau invariably play the same - they're expert jumpshooters.

Expert jumpshooters have the brand of ball needed to 1) develop teammates & brand (they don't impose spot-up roles) and 2) carry the scoring load against the best teams (sufficient brand of ball at carry-job volume) - these 2 factors (developing teammates/brand and carrying scoring load) allow them to win with less and win with secondary producers.

[ShawkFactory]

To be clear, you use those metrics to say Mo was better than Pippen... yeah?

It appears so. We’ll need to add some context when those number don’t go his way though.

[3ba11]

To be clear, you use those metrics to say Mo was better than Pippen... yeah?


07-10' Mo Williams > 88-90' Pippen

based on PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP, scoring, efficiency, assists

Mo was a 6-assist guy before joining Lebron - from 2007-2010, Mo averaged 17/4/5 on 46/88/41 splits

Unfortunately, ball-dominators can't carry bed-wetting teammates over top 5 SRS teams - Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, so he never had a carry-job against a good team in 2 decades of playing.. that's why he lost to an injured, 1-star team with 18 on 38% from Mo.

The reason for Lebron's lack of carry-jobs is because ball-dominators lack sufficient brand of ball to successfully carry the scoring load against top teams (too ball-domjinant), so they need all-time scoring help like Kareem, Wade or AD and can't win with secondary producers like Porzingas, Brunson, Mo Williams, Ingram, Hughes, Jamison, Zydrunas.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters have sufficient brand of ball to carry teammates and develop them, so they can win with secondary producers like Wiggins, Pippen, Lowry, Terry, or Pau.

[Phoenix]

07-10' Mo Williams > 88-90' Pippen

based on PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP, scoring, efficiency, assists



Ok. Can you now compare those same metrics for 09 Lebron and 89 MJ, let us know your findings and your subsequent conclusion.

[SouBeachTalents]

Ok. Can you now compare those same metrics for 09 Lebron and 89 MJ, let us know your findings and your subsequent conclusion.
Or how about LeBron versus literally any other player in history. Classic 3ball fakkitry, using a certain criteria when it helps his argument, then completely dismissing it as soon as it doesn't lol :lol

[Phoenix]

Sidekicks don't dictate brand of ball - Mike Brown wasn't like "let's run an offense based on Mo's skillset"

Since sidekicks don't dictate brand of ball, we can compare their stats without consideration for anything else - cast members are robots to the 1st option's brand of ball so we can just compare their stats like I did with Mo vs Pip

Otoh, 1st options deal with other issues like brand of ball, teammate development/performance, and defensive attention - Jordan was superior in these areas and obviously faced more defensive attention (carried scoring load, aka less scoring help).

It's clear that Jordan's brand of ball in 89' thrived on the next level (playoffs) by executing upsets in the 1st two rounds, while Lebron's brand was exposed as a paper tiger that needed "moar help" by an injured, 1-star underdog

Post those metrics for 09 Lebron and 89 MJ, and let the board decide whether they're relevant to compare in the same manner you used them for Mo and Pippen. The above reply is a very transparent 'oh shit, the very argument I'm using to push one agenda is circling around to bite me in the ass'.

Not posting them shows you're scared to do so for what they're reveal. You can or I will, your choice, but nobody is buying the bullshit above.

[Phoenix]

It appears so. We’ll need to add some context when those number don’t go his way though.

You called it.

[3ba11]

compare those same metrics for 09 Lebron and 89 MJ






Jordan scored a lot more with better efficiency and clutch

What more is there

Jordan's 33/8/8 won 47 games, while Lebron's 28/8/7 won 66 games because his cast was far superior (Lebron won 45 games before Mo)

The stats literally tell the story of Lebron's superior cast - 09' Mo provided superior production to 89' Pippen BY A MILE across the board - even 90' Pippen was behind across the board..

So Jordan's superior raw production and efficiency occurred despite playing with a lane-clogger like Pippen, while Lebron's stiff arm enjoyed the elite spacing it needs to be MVP and have a contender.. Lebron was also a clutch disaster that caused playoff loss as the favorite

[Phoenix]

Or how about LeBron versus literally any other player in history. Classic 3ball fakkitry, using a certain criteria when it helps :oldlol:his argument, then completely dismissing it as soon as it doesn't lol :lol

His argument is hilarious. Sidekick metrics can be compared but not first options, something that we do to compare every great player against another since the dawn of time and something 3ball himself will do with Lebron and Jordan in cases where the numbers may favor Jordan. But in the scenario I posed where it doesn't( 09 Lebron and 89 MJ) and suddenly first option metrics can no longer be compared, just sidekicks.

[3ba11]

His argument is hilarious. Sidekick metrics can be compared but not first options, something that we do to compare every great player against another since the dawn of time and something 3ball himself will do with Lebron and Jordan in cases where the numbers may favor Jordan. But in the scenario I posed where it doesn't( 09 Lebron and 89) and suddently first option metrics can no longer be compared, just sidekicks.


The numbers favor Jordan.. See my last post above that you missed

[ShawkFactory]

Jordan scored a lot more with better efficiency and clutch

What more is there

Jordan's 33/8/8 won 47 games, while Lebron's 28/8/7 won 66 games because his cast was far superior (Lebron won 45 games before Mo)

The stats literally tell the story of Lebron's superior cast - 09' Mo provided superior production to 89' Pippen BY A MILE across the board - even 90' Pippen was behind across the board..

So Jordan's superior raw production and efficiency occurred despite playing with a lane-clogger like Pippen, while Lebron's stiff arm enjoyed the elite spacing it needs to be MVP and have a contender.. Lebron was also a clutch disaster that caused playoff loss as the favorite

https://y.yarn.co/43a48abe-e8cd-4326-83b2-1fca045d5046_text.gif

[Phoenix]

Jordan scored a lot more with better efficiency per possession and clutch

What more is there



What more is there? 09 Lebron's PER, BPM, WS/48, BPM and VORP are higher than 89 MJs. If MJ rated higher in those categories you would have used them as evidence, the same way you say he scored more with better efficiency. You're quick to point out the metric he's better in ( scoring/efficiency), while steering clear of the half dozen metrics he wasn't. We call that cherrypicking.

[SouBeachTalents]

The numbers favor Jordan.. See my last post above that you missed
And here we go with the same routine where both the numbers and advanced metrics favor LeBron over Kobe, Bird, and whoever else is now in your top 10. So when Jordan has superior numbers and advanced metrics, we should go based off that. When LeBron does, then we shouldn't. You're a fakkit :lol

[Phoenix]

The numbers favor Jordan.. See my last post above that you missed

Your post wasn't missed, it was as full of shit as your previous one. See post above where I show Lebron's edges in the metrics you use to say MO>Pippen. If we can compare 09 Lebron and 89 MJ's scoring, then we can also compare their BMP, VORP, PER, WS/48. It's either all comparable or none of it is.

[StrongLurk]

I still refuse to believe OP is 45 years old as he/she claims.

[Phoenix]

And here we go with the same routine where both the numbers and advanced metrics favor LeBron over Kobe, Bird, and whoever else is now in your top 10. So when Jordan has superior numbers and advanced metrics, we should go based off that. When LeBron does, then we shouldn't. You're a fakkit :lol

You know he's full of shit because he refuses to drop the numbers. I take that as conceding and now he's just sliding around in his own drivel at this point. Scoring/efficiency favored 89 MJ so THAT is fair game. But WS/48, PER, BPM, VORP? Oh no we can only compare sidekicks with those numbers!

[3ba11]

And here we go with the same routine where both the numbers and advanced metrics favor LeBron over Kobe, Bird, and whoever else is now in your top 10. So when Jordan has superior numbers and advanced metrics, we should go based off that. When LeBron does, then we shouldn't. You're a fakkit :lol


phoenix asked to compare 89' Jordan to 09' Lebron and I answered his question by saying that Jordan scored far more with more assists and true shooting efficiency, yet he won 19 less games due to inferior cast (the aforementioned statistical gap between Mo and Pippen across the board, and also the team defensive gap, superior rebounding and overall depth)




And here we go with the same routine where both the numbers and advanced metrics favor LeBron over Kobe, Bird, and whoever else is now in your top 10. So when Jordan has superior numbers and advanced metrics, we should go based off that. When LeBron does, then we shouldn't. You're a fakkit :lol


What would you prefer we go by?

production rate/stats? Thats' Jordan

accolades? Jordan

winning? Jordan

winning with less productive teammates? Jordan

less all-stars? Jordan


what would you like to go by?

[3ba11]

You know he's full of shit because he refuses to drop the numbers. I take that as conceding and now he's just sliding around in his own drivel at this point. Scoring/efficiency favored 89 MJ so THAT is fair game. But WS/48, PER, BPM, VORP? Oh no we can only compare sidekicks with those numbers!



89' Jordan....... 33/8/8 on 61 ts
09 Lebron'....... 28/8/7 on 58 ts


When comparing Mo and Pippen, I didn't just compare PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48

I included scoring and efficiency too, which are the most important things

Jordan destroyed Lebron in scoring, efficiency and assists (above), yet he won 19 less games because his cast was far worse (see the aforementioned gap between Mo and Pippen, or the team defensive gap, or the rebounding and rim protection gap)

[ShawkFactory]

89' Jordan....... 33/8/8 on 61 ts
09 Lebron'....... 28/8/7 on 58 ts


When comparing Mo and Pippen, I didn't just compare PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48

I included scoring and efficiency too, which are the most important things

Jordan destroyed Lebron in scoring, efficiency and assists (above), yet he won 19 less games because his cast was far worse (see the aforementioned gap between Mo and Pippen, or the team defensive gap, or the rebounding and rim protection gap)

Per 100 posessions:

Lebron 40.8 pts
Jordan 40.0 pts

[Phoenix]

phoenix asked to compare 89' Jordan to 09' Lebron and I answered his question by saying that Jordan scored far more with more assists and true shooting efficiency,

I told you to post the PER,WS/48, VORP and BPM numbers. You said 'Jordan scored more on better efficiency' so no, you didn't answer my question. You cherrypicked an area that MJ came out ahead and ignored the 5 areas he didn't. You're not even factoring in pace when the 89 Bulls played at 97 vs 89 for the Cavs. You're bragging about MJ having 8 more possessions to get .8 more assists.

[Phoenix]

89' Jordan....... 33/8/8 on 61 ts
09 Lebron'....... 28/8/7 on 58 ts


When comparing Mo and Pippen, I didn't just compare PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48

I included scoring and efficiency too, which are the most important things

Jordan destroyed Lebron in scoring, efficiency and assists (above), yet he won 19 less games because his cast was far worse (see the aforementioned gap between Mo and Pippen, or the team defensive gap, or the rebounding and rim protection gap)

So Jordan scored more, and assisted more with 8 more possessions, with worse metrics in the other 4 categories. If those categories aren't that important( and you infer this by saying scoring/efficiency is most important), then those metrics aren't relevant for comparison points between the sidekicks Mo and Pippen. You're overvaluing or undervaluing the importance of those metrics depending on whether they favor or don't favor MJ. My 4 year old nephew can see through your bullshit.

[Phoenix]

Per 100 posessions:

Lebron 40.8 pts
Jordan 40.0 pts

:lol

[Iverson3]

Jordan missed the playoffs playing with Larry Hughes in 2003. Hughes missed plenty of games in 2006, and a bad fit for LeBron.

[kawhileonard2]

Jordan missed the playoffs playing with Larry Hughes in 2003. Hughes missed plenty of games in 2006, and a bad fit for LeBron.

Lebron missed the playoffs with prime AD and Westbrook and hall of famers in Melo and Dwight. That's a shame.:facepalm

[kawhileonard2]

Which cast is better in their 3rd healthy seasons? (88' MJ vs 06' Lebron)

Why would this matter neither won anything this year or were predicted or favorite to do so.

It's like asking Steph Curry in 2014 vs Isiah Thomas in 1986.

[3ba11]

I told you to post the PER,WS/48, VORP and BPM numbers. You said 'Jordan scored more on better efficiency' so no, you didn't answer my question. You cherrypicked an area that MJ came out ahead and ignored the 5 areas he didn't. You're not even factoring in pace when the 89 Bulls played at 97 vs 89 for the Cavs. You're bragging about MJ having 8 more possessions to get .8 more assists.


I don't care about JUST the advanced stats - you're cherry-picking those - I included advanced stats AND raw stats in the Mo/Pippen comparison

the raw stats matter more and reveal more - 89' Jordan destroyed 09' Lebron in the raw stats but won 19 less games due to inferior cast (aka superior team defense, while Mo destroyed bum Pippen severely across the board)

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't care about JUST the advanced stats - you're cherry-picking those - I included advanced stats AND raw stats in the Mo/Pippen comparison

the raw stats matter more and reveal more - 89' Jordan destroyed 09' Lebron in the raw stats but won 19 less games due to inferior cast (aka superior team defense, while Mo destroyed bum Pippen severely across the board)
Again, LeBron's raw and advanced stats are better than literally everybody's in history besides Jordan, yet he's outside your top 10.

[ShawkFactory]

:lol

To be ignored :lol

[3ba11]

Per 100 posessions:

Lebron 40.8 pts
Jordan 40.0 pts


Yes Lebron's best statistical season has better stats in various areas than Jordan's 8th best season or whatever ranking that you give Jordan's 89' season.

whooptiwhoop

The fact remains that for Lebron to achieve MVP and have his best stats, he needed an all-star teammate, elite spacing and a good team in 2009, while MJ did all that against maximum defensive attention, aka with horrible teams in 88' and 89' .. Lebron's stiff-arm needs spacing, while Jordan's expert jumpshooting skill could shoot over defenses and therefore needed less spacing or help to dominate at maximum level (aka MVP).

Ultimately, Lebron never had bad playoff teams because he got 3 years to develop his team before entering the 06' playoffs, while Jordan had to carry bad teams in 85' and then completely start over in 87-88' after Woolridge/Gervin were removed from a -4 SRS team (86' Bulls)

[ShawkFactory]

Yes Lebron's best statistical season has better stats in various areas than Jordan's 8th best season or whatever ranking that you give Jordan's 89' season.

whooptiwhoop

The fact remains that for Lebron to achieve MVP and have his best stats, he needed an all-star teammate, elite spacing and a good team in 2009, while MJ did all that against maximum defensive attention, aka with horrible teams in 88' and 89' .. Lebron's stiff-arm needs spacing, while Jordan's expert jumpshooting skill could shoot over defenses and therefore needed less spacing or help to dominate at maximum level (aka MVP).

Ultimately, Lebron never had bad playoff teams because he got 3 years to develop his team before entering the 06' playoffs, while Jordan had to carry bad teams in 85' and then completely start over in 87-88' after Woolridge/Gervin were removed from a -4 SRS team (86' Bulls)

Well 89 Jordan vs 09 Lebron IS the year in question..

Per 100 possessions

Lebron: 41/11/10 on 59 TS%, 31.7 PER, .318 WS/48, 13.2 BPM, 11.8 VORP; 1st Team All-Defense

Jordan: 40/10/10 on 61 TS%, 31.1 PER, .292 WS/48, 11.9 BPM, 11.4 VORP; 1st Team All-Defense

Better pretty much across the board.

[SouBeachTalents]

Well 89 Jordan vs 09 Lebron IS the year in question..

Per 100 possessions

Lebron: 41/11/10 on 59 TS%, 31.7 PER, .318 WS/48, 13.2 BPM, 11.8 VORP; 1st Team All-Defense

Jordan: 40/10/10 on 61 TS%, 31.1 PER, .292 WS/48, 11.9 BPM, 11.4 VORP; 1st Team All-Defense

Better pretty much across the board.
Damn.

[3ba11]

Well 89 Jordan vs 09 Lebron IS the year in question..

Per 100 possessions

Lebron: 41/11/10 on 59 TS%, 31.7 PER, .318 WS/48, 13.2 BPM, 11.8 VORP; 1st Team All-Defense

Jordan: 40/10/10 on 61 TS%, 31.1 PER, .292 WS/48, 11.9 BPM, 11.4 VORP; 1st Team All-Defense

Better pretty much across the board.


Wow that makes MJ look so great because the statistical gap is negligible despite Lebron having all the advantages in the years that you cherry-picked.

aka Lebron's stiff arm needs elite spacing to be MVP and put up those kind of numbers, while MJ won MVP and put up those numbers with lane-cloggers and low-producing bums as teammates that made him face maximum defensive attention

Under the conditions that MJ faced in 88' and 89', Lebron couldn't put up those numbers or win MVP from 2006-2008 or 2019 (34 years old) or even 2018 with a HOF teammate like Love.. (and we know that Lebron actually had better casts from 06-08' than Jordan had in 88' and 89')

[Phoenix]

I don't care about JUST the advanced stats - you're cherry-picking those - I included advanced stats AND raw stats in the Mo/Pippen comparison

the raw stats matter more and reveal more - 89' Jordan destroyed 09' Lebron in the raw stats but won 19 less games due to inferior cast (aka superior team defense, while Mo destroyed bum Pippen severely across the board)

The only raw stat you used was scoring. All the other stats you cherrypicked were advanced ones that favored Mo in order to build your 'Mo>Pippen' case. When those advanced stats favored Lebron minus the raw scoring production, the stats are suddenly less important, or only applied to sidekicks when we coompare first option advanced numbers daily( as do you......when they favor MJ to do so). Your argument is shit and now you're helplessly (and hilariously) sliding around in it.

[Phoenix]

This cherrypicking muthaf*cka accusing others of doing it. Pot meet kettle...

[3ba11]

The only raw stat you used was scoring. All the other stats you cherrypicked were advanced ones that favored Mo in order to build your 'Mo>Pippen' case. When those advanced stats favored Lebron minus the raw scoring production, the stats are suddenly less important, or only applied to sidekicks when we coompare first option advanced numbers daily( as do you......when they favor MJ to do so). Your argument is shit and now you're helplessly (and hilariously) sliding around in it.


We're comparing Mo vs Pippen and the respective casts in 89' vs 09'

So it means nothing that Jordan's stats were negligibly-less than Lebron's except it shows that Lebron needed all-star teammates and elite spacing - he didn't achieve that statistical level or MVP with a bum team, no spacing and versus maximum defensive attention like Jordan did.

ultimately, the 19-win gap is better explained by the massive chasm between Mo and Pippen's stats than the negligible gap between MJ and Lebron.

[ShawkFactory]

Wow that makes MJ look so great because the statistical gap is negligible despite Lebron having all the advantages in the years that you cherry-picked.

aka Lebron's stiff arm needs elite spacing to be MVP and put up those kind of numbers, while MJ won MVP and put up those numbers with lane-cloggers and low-producing bums as teammates that made him face maximum defensive attention

Under the conditions that MJ faced in 88' and 89', Lebron couldn't put up those numbers or win MVP from 2006-2008 or 2019 (34 years old) or even 2018 with a HOF teammate like Love.. (and we know that Lebron actually had better casts from 06-08' than Jordan had in 88' and 89')

Ahhh so now we have to consider the conditions associated with the numbers?

[3ba11]

Ahhh so now we have to consider the conditions associated with the numbers?


We're comparing Mo vs Pippen and the respective casts in 89' vs 09'

Lebron and MJ's numbers have nothing to do with it - we already know that MJ had better stats - cherry-picking years to compare won't change that, nor will inflating negligible gaps.

The statistical record shows that the 19-win gap is better explained by the massive chasm between Mo and Pippen's stats than the negligible gap between MJ and Lebron, while the other thing we learn from this is that Lebron can't achieve MVP or all-time caliber of stats without an all-star teammate and elite spacing (he can't do it against maximum defensive attention, lane-cloggers and with bad teams like 88' or 89' Jordan)

[ShawkFactory]

We're comparing Mo vs Pippen and the respective casts in 89' vs 09'

Lebron and MJ's numbers have nothing to do with it - we already know that MJ had better stats - cherry-picking years to compare won't change that, nor will claiming negligible gaps are more than negligible.

The statistical record shows that the 19-win gap is better explained by the massive chasm between Mo and Pippen's stats than the negligible gap between MJ and Lebron, while the other thing we learn from this is that Lebron can't achieve MVP or that caliber of stats without an all-star teammate and elite spacing (he can't do it against maximum defensive attention and with bad teams like 88' or 89' Jordan)

I don’t think anyone has said that Pippen in 89 was better than Mo. He was better by 90 though.

[Phoenix]

We're comparing Mo vs Pippen and the respective casts in 89' vs 09'

So it means nothing that Jordan's stats were negligibly-less than Lebron's except it shows that Lebron needed all-star teammates and elite spacing - he didn't achieve that statistical level or MVP with a bum team, no spacing and versus maximum defensive attention like Jordan did.

ultimately, the 19-win gap is better explained by the massive chasm between Mo and Pippen's stats than the negligible gap between MJ and Lebron.

And I compared 89 Jordan and 09 Lebron as first options. Whether they're negligbly higher or otherwise, the point is they were higher and so the same reason you concluded about Mo and Pippen applies here. The facts don't gain or lose relevance when you decide they do.

[3ba11]

He was better by 90 though.


Pippen was always a lane-clogger that Lebron could never win 66 games with... :confusedshrug:

Pippen can't win with player-types that need spacing such as ball-dominators or centers, as Pippen explains here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s




Pippen was better by 90 though.


2009 Cavs were superior to the 1990 Bulls on both sides of the ball:



2009 Mo............ 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48..... #3 team defense
1990 Pippen...... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48... #19 team defense


Yet Jordan still beat Lebron to titles by winning in 91', while Lebron lost as the favorite again in 10' and 11', despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite or joining Wade/Bosh

[ShawkFactory]

So we ARE arguing with a specific set of numbers without accounting for era differences?

What does Pippen being a lane clogger that Lebron couldn’t win with have to do with him being better than Mo Williams? Lol classic deflection.

[3ba11]

And I compared 89 Jordan and 09 Lebron as first options. Whether they're negligbly higher or otherwise, the point is they were higher and so the same reason you concluded about Mo and Pippen applies here. The facts don't gain or lose relevance when you decide they do.


the 19-win gap is better explained by the massive chasm between Mo and Pippen's stats than the negligible gap between MJ and Lebron.

and the negligible gap between Lebron and MJ's stats shows that MJ could achieve that caliber without the all-star teammate, good team and elite spacing help that Lebron's stiff arm needs to achieve those stats or achieve MVP or a contender

Jordan was MVP with lane-clogger teammates and bad teams that forced him to face maximum defensive attention, while Lebron failed to achieve MVP or all-time stats under those circumstances from 2006-2008, 2019 or even 2018 despite having an all-star Love.

[3ba11]

So we ARE arguing with a specific set of numbers without accounting for era differences?





the advanced stats account for differences in era because PER, WS/48, VORP and BPM measure how much better a player is than the average player at that time - that's what all those stats calculate in one way or another.






What does Pippen being a lane clogger that Lebron couldn’t win with have to do with him being better than Mo Williams? Lol classic deflection.





We don't know how good Pippen was because he was lucky to land alongside the only guy that could average 41 so Pippen could win at 2nd option.

If Pippen landed alongside a player-type that needed spacing like Lebron or Hakeem, he would've averaged 14 on 40% for his career like he did in 1999 (worst-ever efficiency despite facing zero defensive attention).






What does Pippen being a lane clogger that Lebron couldn’t win with have to do with him being better than Mo Williams? Lol classic deflection.





There's no way that Pippen could lift the 2008 Cavs from 45 wins to 66 wins because only Mo's elite spacing did that.

Ultimately, we know that Mo was better than Pippen until 1991.. So was 2005 Larry Hughes, whose stats were just a hair below prime Pippen and far above 90' Pippen..

Zydrunas and Jamison were also better than Pippen until 1991.. Even Varejao destroys Pippen in the advanced stats and was all-defense in 2010

This shows how much better Lebron's cast was.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen's winning as 2nd option on numerous teams

'94 & '95 Rockets
All of Duncan's title teams
'09 & '10 Lakers
2011 Mavs
2013 Heat
2015 Warriors
2019 Raps
2022 Warriors

[Phoenix]

the 19-win gap is better explained by the massive chasm between Mo and Pippen's stats than the negligible gap between MJ and Lebron.

and the negligible gap between Lebron and MJ's stats shows that MJ could achieve that caliber without the all-star teammate, good team and elite spacing help that Lebron's stiff arm needs to achieve those stats or achieve MVP or a contender

Jordan was MVP with lane-clogger teammates and bad teams that forced him to face maximum defensive attention, while Lebron failed to achieve MVP or all-time stats under those circumstances from 2006-2008, 2019 or even 2018 despite having an all-star Love.

You say Lebron needed elite spacing while ignoring that Jordan's championship teams featured John Paxson, B.J Armstrong, Craig Hodges, Steve Kerr, Toni Kukoc. All elite shooters, 3point % leaders (BJ, Kerr) and 3point contest champs( Hodges, Kerr). Hell, in the deciding game in the 91 finals, Paxson was nailing range jumpers including drive and kicks from Jordan who was told to 'pass the fukking ball':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXa1jX6BRGg&t=14s

Hakeem had Robert Horry and Kenny Smith. Shaq and Kobe had Horry, Fisher, Fox. 'Spacing' isn't exclusive to Lebron.

[Axe]

No pip?

[kawhileonard2]

Pippen's winning as 2nd option on numerous teams

'94 & '95 Rockets
All of Duncan's title teams
'09 & '10 Lakers
2011 Mavs
2013 Heat
2015 Warriors
2019 Raps
2022 Warriors

Couldn't even get out of round 1 with prime Hakeem and Barkley.

[3ba11]

You say Lebron needed elite spacing while ignoring that Jordan's championship teams featured John Paxson, B.J Armstrong, Craig Hodges, Steve Kerr, Toni Kukoc. All elite shooters, 3point % leaders (BJ, Kerr) and 3point contest champs( Hodges, Kerr). Hell, in the deciding game in the 91 finals, Paxson was nailing range jumpers including drive and kicks from Jordan who was told to 'pass the fukking ball':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXa1jX6BRGg&t=14s

Hakeem had Robert Horry and Kenny Smith. Shaq and Kobe had Horry, Fisher, Fox. 'Spacing' isn't exclusive to Lebron.


Jordan was MVP without elite spacing or a good team in 1988, while Lebron needed an all-star teammate, elite spacing and a good, developed team to be MVP in 2009 (this was after being barely .500 in 2008, which was his 5th healthy season)

Lebron never won without a top 10 team in 3-point efficiency, while Jordan won 2 titles with the worst-shooting teams in the league (92' and 98')

Again, ball-dominators can't rely on shooting over defenses, so they need spacing for their drives to be MVP - MJ didn't need this as an expert jumpshooter that can shoot over defenses consistently.. Furthermore, ball-dominators can't carry bed-wetting teammates over top 5 SRS teams (too ball-domiinant at carry-job volume to beat top teams)..

So the problems of ball-dominators are threefold - 1) they can't have carry-jobs against good teams so they can't win with secondary producers at sidekick, 2) nor can they develop teammates (impose spot-up roles), so they can't win organically, while also 3) needing elite spacing help to be MVP or have a contender.. that's a decent summary that is irrefutable and supported by historical record and data - it's fact (all three)

[Phoenix]

Jordan was MVP without elite spacing or a good team in 1988, while Lebron needed an all-star teammate, elite spacing and a good, developed team to be MVP in 2009 (this was after being barely .500 in 2008, which was his 5th healthy season)

Lebron never won without a top 10 team in 3-point efficiency, while Jordan won 2 titles with the worst-shooting teams in the league (92' and 98')

Again, ball-dominators can't rely on shooting over defenses, so they need spacing for their drives to be MVP - MJ didn't need this as an expert jumpshooter that can shoot over defenses consistently.. Furthermore, ball-dominators can't carry bed-wetting teammates over top 5 SRS teams (too ball-domiinant at carry-job volume to beat top teams)..

So the problems of ball-dominators are threefold - 1) they can't have carry-jobs against good teams so they can't win with secondary producers at sidekick, 2) nor can they develop teammates (impose spot-up roles), so they can't win organically, while also 3) needing elite spacing help to be MVP or have a contender.. that's a decent summary that is irrefutable and supported by historical record and data - it's fact (all three)

Lebron was 2nd in MVP voting without Mo as far back as 2006. The only reason he didn't get it was because the media awarded Steve Nash for keeping Phoenix afloat after Amare missed most of the year. He didn't reach 'MVP caliber' because Mo showed up. He simply hit the window of being 4-5 years into his career when the media is more willing to award you MVP as a young player over established talents, and being able to lead a team to a top record. MJ was 25 and 4 years into his career when he won MVP and he himself wasn't an 'expert jumpshooter' at that point. 88 MJ very much qualifies primarily as a slasher. He didnt win championships until he himself improved as a shooter, and by that time he was playing with shooters( Paxson, BJ, Hodges,Kerr, Kukoc).

MJ winning two titles with bad 3point shooting teams isn't a big deal in the 90s because it wasn't a big enough aspect of the game. The two years you point to as Chicago winning with poor 3point %, Jordan also had poor season efficiency (27% in 92, 24% in 98). Even the Rockets who posted up Hakeem and surrounded him with shooters weren't that elite in 3 point efficiency(15th in 94, 12th in 95). You say Lebron 'never won' without a top 10 3point % team'- the Lakers were 21st in 2020. That being said, the 3 point shot was a much bigger part of Lebrons NBA and being poor at it is a much bigger handicap in todays NBA vs MJ's, hence your example of him winning two titles with bad 3 point shooting efficiency- it wasn't a detriment at that point in league where teams were taking 12 threes a game. The modern NBA hits that volume in a quarter and were taking as much as 26 a game when Lebron was winning in Miami; Chicago was winning titles MAKING 2 a game in the early 90s. Two completely different leagues and requirements for winning.

[3ba11]

MJ winning two titles with bad 3point shooting teams isn't a big deal in the 90s because it wasn't a big enough aspect of the game. The two years you point to as Chicago winning with poor 3point %, Jordan also had poor seaaon efficiency (27% in 92, 24% in 98). Even the Rockets who posted up Hakeem and surrounded him with shooters weren't that elite in efficiency(15th in 94, 12th in 95). You say Lebron 'never won't without a top 10 3point % team- the Lakers were 21st in 2020. That being said, the 3 point shot was a much bigger part of Lebrons NBA and being poor at it is a much bigger handicap in todays NBA vs MJ's, hence your example of him winning two titles with bad 3 point shooting efficiency- it wasn't a handicap at that point





Okay, I'm going to be honest.. The spacing argument only applies to Lebron winning MVP - he needs elite spacing and to be MVP in my view - I think that's a legit argument and somewhat intuitive for a ball-dominator.

But I'm bullshitting about the 3-point percentage argument and Lebron needing elite spacing FOR TITLES - although Lebron never won as the 1st option leading scorer without his team being top 10 in three-point efficiency - who cares... Some of those teams ranked low in attempts and the reality is that the Bulls had the best spacing in the league all 6 times they won the chip - that was their superior brand of ball that allowed winning without a cast of stars - the triangle provided the best spacing available back then.. Infact, the triangle was the only offense back then that made any meaningful attempt to space the floor at all.

However, the rub is that Jordan and Kobe's skillset (expert jumpshooting) allowed the triangle to be run - a ball-dominant Luka or Lebron skillset can't run the triangle and you can't run both at the same time - it's the triangle OR lebron-ball, not both.. So Jordan and Kobe provided the spacing - Jordan literally led the Bulls in jumpshooting, including playoff 3-point percentage and attempts for the 91-93' title runs.. Has Lebron been the primary space-provider for HIS team?




Lebron was 2nd in MVP voting without Mo as far back as 2006. The only reason he didn't get it was because the media awarded Steve Nash for keeping Phoenix afloat after Amare missed most of the year. He didn't reach 'MVP caliber' because Mo William's showed up. He simply hit the window of being 4-5 years into his career when the media is more willing to award you MVP as a young player over established talents, and being able to lead a team to a top record. MJ was 25 and 4 years into his career when he won MVP and he himself wasn't an 'expert jumpshooter' at that point. 88 MJ very much qualifies primarily as a slasher. He didnt win championships until he himself improved as a shooter, and by that time he was playing with shooters( Paxson, BJ, Hodges,Kerr, Kukoc).




except Lebron was MVP in year 6, so he was past the Year 4 range where you say the media starts to give props to upcoming players - Jordan was infact MVP during this time period, not Lebron. (1988 was Jordan's 3rd healthy season and 4th season overall)

And Jordan averaged 37 in 1987 by being an expert jumpshooter where the majority of his shots were jumpers and he always shot FT's well - he took every kind of jumpshot you can imagine - he came off screens on every possession and hit spot-ups, hang-time leaners off the glass, high archers (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/McLuKl.gif) - you name it..

Against Detroit, Jordan dropped 59 points on all jumpers in the regular season (go watch those highlights and tell me that isn't expert jumpshooting), but his competitiveness got the better of him in the playoffs and he kept attacking the rim to show them that their physical play didn't bother him - this was a big mistake and probably cost him a goat upset win in 89'.. Of course, Jordan actually had em' in 90', but we all know what happened - they played 4 on 5 in Game 7, which threw everyone off.

[Phoenix]

Okay, I'm going to be honest.. The spacing argument only applies to Lebron winning MVP - he needs elite spacing and to be MVP in my view - I think that's a legit argument and somewhat intuitive for a ball-dominator.

But I'm bullshitting about the 3-point percentage argument and Lebron needing elite spacing FOR TITLES - although Lebron never won as the 1st option leading scorer without his team being top 10 in three-point efficiency - who cares... Some of those teams ranked low in attempts and the reality is that the Bulls had the best spacing in the league all 6 times they won the chip - that was their superior brand of ball that allowed winning without a cast of stars - the triangle provided the best spacing available back then.. Infact, the triangle was the only offense back then that made any meaningful attempt to space the floor at all.

However, the rub is that Jordan and Kobe's skillset (expert jumpshooting) allowed the triangle to be run - a ball-dominant Luka or Lebron skillset can't run the triangle and you can't run both at the same time - it's the triangle OR lebron-ball, not both.. So Jordan and Kobe provided the spacing - Jordan literally led the Bulls in jumpshooting, including playoff 3-point percentage and attempts for the 91-93' title runs.. Has Lebron been the primary space-provider for HIS team?


Being honest for you would be a nice change of pace and whatever you think is a legit argument is irrelevant because of your ridiculous agenda, shifting goalposts, half-truths, and cherry-picked criteria. The only thing in the above drivel you said I agree with is 'I'm bullshitting'. Yes, you are and you do......consistently. As I said, THE ONLY reason Lebron wasn't MVP in his third season, 05/06, is because the media awarded it to Nash for keeping the Suns afloat when Amare went down. The moment your point is slapped away you revert to the 'yeah I was just trolling/bullshitting, now I'll insert some other criteria and move the goalposts once again'. You're shameless. As far as Lebron ever being the spacer......does it matter? I mean really does it? Nobody is arguing he is/was the overall shooter peak Jordan/Kobe were and you know what? If he was, the 'GOAT' discourse would be even less debatable, because it would unquestionably be Lebron. Do you know how many different players with a wide spectrum of skillsets, strengths and weaknesses, have won titles? Jordan/Kobe's methodology was never going to be Lebron's, and vice versa. Actually I don't know why you drag Kobe's name into it because he has 2 titles as the unquestioned best player. Neither Jordan or Lebron played with anyone remotely as dominant as Shaq to try and pass off like Kobe's 5 titles should all carry the same weight.



except Lebron was MVP in year 6, so he was past the Year 4 range where you say the media starts to give props to upcoming players - Jordan was infact MVP during this time period, not Lebron. (1988 was Jordan's 3rd healthy season and 4th season overall)

And Jordan averaged 37 in 1987 by being an expert jumpshooter where the majority of his shots were jumpers and he always shot FT's well - he took every kind of jumpshot you can imagine - he came off screens on every possession and hit spot-ups, hang-time leaners off the glass, high archers (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/McLuKl.gif) - you name it..

Against Detroit, Jordan dropped 59 points on all jumpers in the regular season (go watch those highlights and tell me that isn't expert jumpshooting), but his competitiveness got the better of him in the playoffs and he kept attacking the rim to show them that their physical play didn't bother him - this was a big mistake and probably cost him a goat upset win in 89'.. Of course, Jordan actually had em' in 90', but we all know what happened - they played 4 on 5 in Game 7, which threw everyone off.


I said year 4/5. So I was off by a single season and you think that dramtically changes my point? It doesn't. Tons of GOAT level players took 5/6 or more seasons to win MVP. MJ was probably the best individual player in the league BEFORE he won it in 88, but the league wasn't going to give it to him until his team hit a record worthy of consideration. It doesn't matter if he was injured his 2nd year in terms of it throwing off the timetable of him winning MVP. He wouldn't have won any sooner even if he played all of 86, because the teams he was playing on could barely crack 40 wins. Once the team cracked 50 wins, and he hit the start of his prime? Then you could have a conversation about giving him MVP over the incumbents Bird and Magic. Also note that while he won MVP in 88, he didn't win it the next two years until Pippen hit his prime, Grant came into his own, and he had decent supporting cast who went through the playoff wars a few times. The prior 4 MVPs were Bird winning 3 in a row, Magic winning in 87, then Magic again in 89 and 90. One could argue MJs 88 win was token, not that he obviously wasn't a legit MVP, but that didn't exactly start off a string of MVP awards.

We have different definitions of 'expert jumpshooting'. Yeah he had some games in the 80s where he went off with the jumpshot, but everything about his shooting improved dramatically in the 90s...his form, the variety of ways he could create a jumpshot, range and accuracy. 97 MJ with 1200 midrange jumpshots on 48% or whatever the number is when he's being played more for the jumpshot than the drive? That's 'expert jumpshooting'. 80's MJ was still largely being played for the drive and the threat of that was what opened up jumpshooting opportunities. By no means would I call 88 'expert jumpshooting' by his own standards in the mid 90s. And any professed 'MJ fan' should be able to recognize that difference as well. Jordan scaled wayyyy up as a shooter by the time he was winning titles in the 90s.

[Axe]

No pip?
Op?

[3ba11]

As far as Lebron ever being the spacer......does it matter? I mean really does it? Nobody is arguing he is/was the overall shooter peak Jordan/Kobe were and you know what? If he was, the 'GOAT' discourse would be even less debatable, because it would unquestionably be Lebron. Do you know how many different players with a wide spectrum of skillsets, strengths and weaknesses, have won titles? Jordan/Kobe's methodology was never going to be Lebron's, and vice versa. Actually I don't know why you drag Kobe's name into it because he has 2 titles as the unquestioned best player. Neither Jordan or Lebron played with anyone remotely as dominant as Shaq to try and pass off like Kobe's 5 titles should all carry the same weight.





Ball-dominance needs more help to win and there's specific reasons why it requires more help that are part of the historical record - these things are historical.

Specifically - since the skillset can't carry bed-wetting teammates over top teams (too ball-dominant at carry-job volume) and can't win organically (imposes spot-up roles that stall young players), the skillset requires juggernaut, elite-producing sidekicks like Kareem or Wade and can't win with secondary producers like Porzingas, Brunson, Mo Williams, Ingram, Jamison, Hughes or Zydrunas.

Otoh, expert jumpshooters CAN win with secondary producers (Wiggins, Pippen, Lowry, Pau or Terry) because their skillset develops teammates (wins organically) and carries bed-wetting teammates over top teams (sufficient brand at carry-job volume to beat top teams).

So forget the stats, accolades and titles for a second - the reason MJ and Kobe are better is because they PLAYED A SUPERIOR WAY that required less help to win and yielded higher team ceilings/Finals records.. They were able to field teams that could dominate the championship level, while Lebron's skillset yields lottery records on the championship level regardless of cast (20-21 in the Finals excluding 07', 15', 18', which is pretty generous considering his horrific efficiency or team assist deficits in those series, aka he possibly caused defeat).. Meanwhile, the expert jumpshooting of Kobe and MJ reached higher team ceilings/Finals records with less help (8 titles with secondary producers at sidekick, 8/9 Finals record)






As I said, THE ONLY reason Lebron wasn't MVP in his third season, 05/06, is because the media awarded it to Nash for keeping the Suns afloat when Amare went down. **The moment your point is slapped away you revert to the 'yeah I was just trolling/bullshitting**, now I'll insert some other criteria and move the goalposts once again'. You're shameless





Your reading comp failed on this one because i said that i WASN'T bullshitting about Lebron needing elite spacing and all-star teammates to be MVP (I said this was intuitive, since it opens up a ball-dominator's driving game)

Otoh, I said that I was bullshitting about Lebron needing spacing to win titles because that's common to everyone - all the best brands of ball have the best spacing like the 90's Bulls, or Spurs/Warriors.. The caveat is that this spacing is enabled by guys like Curry, Jordan and Kobe (who allow the triangle to run and lead their team in jumpshooting) - Lebron cannot enable this kind of spacing and ball movement, so he's forced to play an inferior way, aka ball-domination, which needs all-stars and elite spacing to be MVP, while also failing to develop teammates (can't win organically) or carry the scoring load (win with secondary producers like Wiggins, Pippen - needs elite producers like Kareem, Wade, AD).






As I said, THE ONLY reason Lebron wasn't MVP in his third season, 05/06, is because the media awarded it to Nash for keeping the Suns afloat when Amare went down.





Subjective nonsense with no back up

In addition to shocking the league with an era-changing brand of ball that would reverberate for decades to come (similar to Curry), Nash carried the Suns to title contention without Amare - this is obviously a few levels superior then Lebron having a sub-par team in 2006 despite the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas winning the sweepstakes for a coveted 2-way wing acquisition.






Once the team cracked 50 wins, and he hit the start of his prime? Then you could have a conversation about giving him MVP over the incumbents Bird and Magic.





Jordan was 2nd for MVP in his 2nd healthy season (87'), while having a bigger MVP share (0.57) than Lebron's 3rd healthy season in 2006 (0.55).

So there was major conversation about him being MVP in 87' before winning in 88' with a garbage cast that Lebron could never win MVP with - for Lebron to win MVP, he needs all-star teammates and a good team to open up his drives - he can't win MVP with a bad cast like MJ had in 88'






97 MJ with 1200 midrange jumpshots on 48% or whatever the number is when he's being played more for the jumpshot than the drive? That's 'expert jumpshooting'. 80's MJ was still largely being played for the drive and the threat of that was what opened up jumpshooting opportunities. By no means would I call 88 'expert jumpshooting' by his own standards in the mid 90s. And any professed 'MJ fan' should be able to recognize that difference as well. Jordan scaled wayyyy up as a shooter by the time he was winning titles in the 90s.





At Jordan's peak athleticism, he got 2 dunks per game, aka the vast majority of his shots were jumpers - that's how he dropped 37 ppg (9 more points than anyone else in the league).

Jordan got hot every game in the 80's (and 90's), at which point he would be forced to shoot tougher and tougher jumpers as the game progressed, until the toughest jumpers occurred down the stretch of the 4th quarter - no one was better at hitting numerous tough jumpers down the stretch of the 4th than MJ.

More importantly, Jordan usually had to shoot over packed paints anyway, per the standard back then - that's why today's ball-dominators would fail back then because Lebron, Luka and SGA would have to shoot over packed paints to dominate, which isn't their specialty like Kobe or Jordan or Curry (expert jumpshooters).. The packed paints and physicality would turn Luka and Lebron into passive facilitators like Magic or Kidd.






We have different definitions of 'expert jumpshooting'.

Yeah he had some games in the 80s where he went off with the jumpshot, but everything about his shooting improved dramatically in the 90s...his form, the variety of ways he could create a jumpshot, range and accuracy.





The triangle reduced the number of ways Jordan created jumpers - it required Jordan to shoot turnarounds and one-dribble pull-ups REGULARLY - that's the only difference and almost no one could average 30-40 this way.. Yet there was no adjustment period where he had to move into this role - it was an immediate switch that he could've done earlier in his career because those were shots that he was already elite at.

Jordan dropped 49 and 63 on the Celtics with all-time jumpshooting and he would do this every game for 32-37 ppg in the 80's, so it wasn't just an occasional one-off - every game was a smorgasbord of pretty jumpers from the 86' Playoffs onward.. The opposing coach called multiple timeouts every game to stop the Jordan onslaught (which would be mostly jumpers).

That's always been my point about Jordan - he had the skills (expert jumpshooting skill) to easily handle what Phil was asking (which is why Phil asked it - Phil would never ask Luka or Lebron to run the triangle - whereas Jordan's skillset allowed it).

[SouBeachTalents]

Ball-dominance needs more help to win and there's specific reasons why it requires more help that are part of the historical record - these things are historical.

Specifically - since the skillset can't carry bed-wetting teammates over top teams (too ball-dominant at carry-job volume) and can't win organically (imposes spot-up roles that stall young players), the skillset requires juggernaut, elite-producing sidekicks like Kareem or Wade and can't win with secondary producers like Porzingas, Brunson, Mo Williams, Ingram, Jamison, Hughes or Zydrunas.

Otoh, expert jumpshooters CAN win with secondary producers (Wiggins, Pippen, Lowry, Pau or Terry) because their skillset develops teammates (wins organically) and carries bed-wetting teammates over top teams (sufficient brand at carry-job volume to beat top teams).

So forget the stats, accolades and titles for a second - the reason MJ and Kobe are better is because they PLAYED A SUPERIOR WAY that required less help to win and yielded higher team ceilings/Finals records.. They were able to field teams that could dominate the championship level, while Lebron's skillset yields lottery records on the championship level regardless of cast (20-21 in the Finals excluding 07', 15', 18', which is pretty generous considering his horrific efficiency or team assist deficits in those series, aka he possibly caused defeat).. Meanwhile, the expert jumpshooting of Kobe and MJ reached higher team ceilings/Finals records with less help (8 titles with secondary producers at sidekick, 8/9 Finals record)






Your reading comp failed on this one because i said that i WASN'T bullshitting about Lebron needing elite spacing and all-star teammates to be MVP (I said this was intuitive, since it opens up a ball-dominator's driving game)

Otoh, I said that I was bullshitting about Lebron needing spacing to win titles because that's common to everyone - all the best brands of ball have the best spacing like the 90's Bulls, or Spurs/Warriors.. The caveat is that this spacing is enabled by guys like Curry, Jordan and Kobe (who allow the triangle to run and lead their team in jumpshooting) - Lebron cannot enable this kind of spacing and ball movement, so he's forced to play an inferior way, aka ball-domination, which needs all-stars and elite spacing to be MVP, while also failing to develop teammates (can't win organically) or carry the scoring load (win with secondary producers like Wiggins, Pippen - needs elite producers like Kareem, Wade, AD).






Subjective nonsense with no back up

In addition to shocking the league with an era-changing brand of ball that would reverberate for decades to come (similar to Curry), Nash carried the Suns to title contention without Amare - this is obviously a few levels superior then Lebron having a sub-par team in 2006 despite the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas winning the sweepstakes for a coveted 2-way wing acquisition.






Jordan was 2nd for MVP in his 2nd healthy season (87'), while having a bigger MVP share (0.57) than Lebron's 3rd healthy season in 2006 (0.55).

So there was major conversation about him being MVP in 87' before winning in 88' with a garbage cast that Lebron could never win MVP with - for Lebron to win MVP, he needs all-star teammates and a good team to open up his drives - he can't win MVP with a bad cast like MJ had in 88'






At Jordan's peak athleticism, he got 2 dunks per game, aka the vast majority of his shots were jumpers - that's how he dropped 37 ppg (9 more points than anyone else in the league).

Jordan got hot every game in the 80's (and 90's), at which point he would be forced to shoot tougher and tougher jumpers as the game progressed, until the toughest jumpers occurred down the stretch of the 4th quarter - no one was better at hitting numerous tough jumpers down the stretch of the 4th than MJ.

More importantly, Jordan usually had to shoot over packed paints anyway, per the standard back then - that's why today's ball-dominators would fail back then because Lebron, Luka and SGA would have to shoot over packed paints to dominate, which isn't their specialty like Kobe or Jordan or Curry (expert jumpshooters).. The packed paints and physicality would turn Luka and Lebron into passive facilitators like Magic or Kidd.






The triangle reduced the number of ways Jordan created jumpers - it required Jordan to shoot turnarounds and one-dribble pull-ups REGULARLY - that's the only difference and almost no one could average 30-40 this way.. Yet there was no adjustment period where he had to move into this role - it was an immediate switch that he could've done earlier in his career because those were shots that he was already elite at.

Jordan dropped 49 and 63 on the Celtics with all-time jumpshooting and he would do this every game for 32-37 ppg in the 80's, so it wasn't just an occasional one-off - every game was a smorgasbord of pretty jumpers from the 86' Playoffs onward.. The opposing coach called multiple timeouts every game to stop the Jordan onslaught (which would be mostly jumpers).

That's always been my point about Jordan - he had the skills (expert jumpshooting skill) to easily handle what Phil was asking (which is why Phil asked it - Phil would never ask Luka or Lebron to run the triangle - whereas Jordan's skillset allowed it).
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[3ba11]

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Losing (1-9) during the same period that everyone else loses (early in career)?

Sounds like you don't have anything legitimate on the only guy that never lost as the favorite or with good teams (1 or 2 seeds) or in the Finals (6/6) and lost the least ever with an all-star teammate (migraine and baseball years)

Btw, the Bulls made MJ start over in 87-88' by removing the 1st and 2nd options (Woolridge and Gervin) from a 30-win team (86' Bulls).. And they were actually 21-43 without MJ in 86' (9-9 with him in limited minutes)

[Bacchus]

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Two bronze medals losing to super powers Greece and Puerto Rico without Kobe
Couldn't win a title without playing with the first pick of the draft or a finals MVP

[SouBeachTalents]

Losing (1-9) during the same period that everyone else loses (early in career)?

Sounds like you don't have anything legitimate on the only guy that never lost as the favorite or with good teams (1 or 2 seeds) or in the Finals (6/6) and lost the least ever with an all-star teammate (migraine and baseball years)

Btw, the Bulls made MJ start over in 87-88' by removing the 1st and 2nd options (Woolridge and Gervin) from a 30-win team (86' Bulls).. And they were actually 21-43 without MJ in 86' (9-9 with him in limited minutes)
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Two bronze medals losing to super powers Greece and Puerto Rico without Kobe
Shut the fck up 3ball

[Phoenix]

Your reading comp failed on this one because i said that i WASN'T bullshitting about Lebron needing elite spacing and all-star teammates to be MVP (I said this was intuitive, since it opens up a ball-dominator's driving game)

And as I said, spacing wasn't an exclusive requirement for Lebron's teams. Hakeem probably isn't winning in 94 or 95 if he didn't have enough spacing around him to make the defense either live with staying home on the shooters or double him and give up the 3 to Horry, Smith, Elie, etc. Lebron 'needed' elite spacing because it's a pace and space league. EVERYONE in the modern NBA needs some level of spacing if you're going to be a serious contender. The argument isn't whether Lebron needs spacing, the argument is that's not exclusive to him.

Btw, in addition to shocking the league with an era-changing brand of ball that would reverberate for decades to come (similar to Curry), Nash carried the Suns to title contention without Amare - this is obviously a few levels superior then Lebron having a sub-par team in 2006 despite the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas winning the sweepstakes for a coveted 2-way wing acquisition.

The 2006 Suns without Amare was more talented than the Cavs.Marion was an all-star and all-NBA third team( Zydrunas didn't make all-NBA even when the center position wasn't particularly strong) and the supporting cast of Diaw, Bell and Barbosa I'd take over Hughes( who you act like was the 2nd coming of Kobe) and a bunch of players that most people would probably forget.



Jordan was 2nd for MVP in his 2nd healthy season (87'), while having a bigger MVP share (0.57) than Lebron's 3rd healthy season in 2006 (0.55).


So there was major conversation about him being MVP in 87' before winning in 88' with a garbage cast that Lebron could never win MVP with - for Lebron to win MVP, he needs all-star teammates and a good team to open up his drives - he can't win MVP with a bad cast like MJ had in 88'

It was his third season. 86 doesn't 'not count' because he was injured as far as his MVP votes in 87.

At Jordan's peak athleticism, he got 2 dunks per game, aka the vast majority of his shots were jumpers - that's how he dropped 37 ppg (9 more points than anyone else in the league).

Aka the majority of his shots were layups and jumpers.

The triangle reduced the number of ways Jordan created jumpers - it required Jordan to shoot turnarounds and one-dribble pull-ups REGULARLY - that's the only difference and almost no one could average 30-40 this way.. Yet there was no adjustment period where he had to improve into this role - it was an immediate switch that he could've done earlier in his career because those were shots that he was already elite at.

You can clearly see a drastic change in form in Jordan's jumpshot from 80's to 90s. His jumpers in the 80's were often created out of his athleticism( like the hanging, contorting variety) but as he got older his form was more textbook and he was taking different kinds of jumpshots. It wasn't 'what the triangle allowed', it was the evolution of his offensive skills,shooting, and approach to getting space on defenders. What was his midrange volume/efficiency during the 2nd 3peat vs his 88 numbers? I'm sure you have that info on your terabyte HDD worth of Jordan information.



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[3ba11]

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Jordan's championship-winning shot at North Carolina was textbook and he used the same dream shake footwork at North Carolina or throughout the 80's that he used from 96-98' to three-peat.. He just didn't use it exclusively because he wasn't restricted by the triangle.. The triangle taught him which jumpers yield the best chemistry and team, so he could shoot those exclusively.

So your comments reflect the restriction of the triangle, which was a restriction that Jordan instantly adapted to because the skills were there to simply make turnarounds and one-dribble pull-ups comprise 80% of his jumpers instead of 15-20% like before..

Jordan's best jumpshooting was actually in 89' and 90' when he experimented with threes for the first time and dropped the easiest 69 ever on mostly lackadaisical jumpers.. The triangle simply taught Jordan what kind of jumpers to shoot exclusively to maximize chemistry and team ceiling - so even when he was averaging 41 in the Finals, he was using a particular strategy of jumpshooting to yield the best team result.. Tailoring his game to the triangle showed that he could run any kind of offense at an elite level including a fundamentally-sound jumpshot offense (6 titles with triangle) or a ball-dominant offense (stint at PG in 89') or a high individual assist style (91' Finals).

Btw, I wonder how much Jordan you've watched because you seem to think that his jumper went off "once in a while" in the 80's - you said this after I recommended you watch one of his 50 point games - but his jumper went off when he scored 29 points or 38 points or 34 points... Shooting guards that drop 30+ points usually have their jumpers go off and I don't think you realize that's what Jordan did every night from his rookie year.. It's just like when Devin Booker drops 30 and his jumper goes off - Jordan's jumper was like that in 87' except he got an extra dunk per game, an extra dipsy-do, and more consistent attack (much higher volume).

Ultimately, Jordan is the only all-time athlete that was also an all-time jumpshooter - maybe you consider Kobe to be an all-time athlete, but I'm talking about guys like Zion, Lebron, Dr. J, Shaq, Kemp, Dominique, Giannis, MJ - only MJ is an elite jumpshooter and he's all-time jumpshooter (the goat 2-point jumpshooter).

And btw, the point about Lebron wasn't that he needed spacing for titles - I conceded that he didn't, or that many titles teams had the best spacing like the Warriors, Spurs or 90's Bulls.. The point that you never responded to was that Lebron can't win MVP by carrying a bad team like 88' Jordan did - he needs all-star teammates and a good team to open up his driving game, while expert jumpshooters like Jordan can consistently shoot over defenses and therefore drag a bad team without all-star teammates to open things up for him.. This is the historical record and intuitive (i.e. ball-dominators need all-star teammates to open things up for their drives to be MVP)

[Phoenix]

Btw, I wonder how much Jordan you've watched because you seem to think that his jumper went off "once in a while" in the 80's - you said this after I recommended you watch one of his 50 point games - but his jumper went off when he scored 29 points or 38 points or 34 points... Shooting guards that drop 30+ points usually have their jumpers go off and I don't think you realize that's what Jordan did every night from his rookie year.. It's just like when Devin Booker drops 30 and his jumper goes off - Jordan's jumper was like that in 87' except he got an extra dunk per game, an extra dipsy-do, and more consistent attack (much higher volume).

Seen plenty of him. You seem to be conflating my comments to say he 'couldn't' shoot in the 80s or rarely shot. I said he was more reliant on the jumpshot in the 90s as he lost a drop off his peak athleticism( are you saying that didn't happen), his form changed to more textbook( are you arguing it didn't), his midrange volume went up( are you arguing it didn't) and he was more of a slasher in the 80s( are you arguing he wasn't). Are you arguing that 97 MJ purely as shooter already had that level of shooting in 87? I've never seen anyone other than you act like MJ in the 90s hadn't revamped alot of his game to accomodate a variety of factors.I'd go as far as to say if you removed the jersey and obscured their face so they couldn't be identified, someone could easily watch a highlight package of 87 MJ and 97 MJ thinking they're two different players.


The point that you never responded to was that Lebron can't win MVP by carrying a bad team like 88' Jordan did - he needs all-star teammates and a good team to open up his driving game, while expert jumpshooters like Jordan can consistently shoot over defenses and therefore drag a bad team without all-star teammates to open things up for him.. This is the historical record and intuitive (i.e. ball-dominators need all-star teammates to open things up for their drives to be MVP)

I didn't respond to it because either I didn't disagree with it or didn't feel strongly enough about it to offer a counter. Though I will say, you overrate the shit out of Mo Williams. He was NOT a championship level 2nd option as much as you hype him to be. I don't care about your advanced stats that you like to throw out when it suits your comparison to Scpttie, you act like the 09 and 10 casts had 2017 Warriors level talent and they fell short because of Lebron. Mp, washed up Shaq and past prime Jamison wasn't winning titles with any number one option playing those years.


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[3ba11]

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Unfortunately, we don't have numbers for Jordan's mid-range in 87', whereas Jordan's mid-range numbers from 97' are famous at this point among basketball fans.. If we had his numbers from 87', they would almost certainly show that he made more than 700 jumpshots (his number in 97', which is a record) - that's how dominant MJ was in 87' - far more dominant than 97' Jordan, aka the only guy since Wilt to drop 3000 in a season.. The triangle restricted him to a certain kind of jumpshooting strategy but he could've been coached this way sooner,, Collins actually refused Phil's efforts to use the triangle - that's actually why Collins was fired - they wanted to use Jordan a different way and Collins refused.

Btw, Dirk won with Terry and a weak team defense, so I don't see why it's such a big deal to expect the so-called GOAT to win with Mo and a top team defense.. And if he can't beat Kobe in the Finals, then at least beat Dwight as a -700 favorite - unfortunately, he averaged 12 turnovers per 48 minutes of clutch time, while also choking in the critical Game 4 OT and having a historic defensive blunder (not providing the size/agility to defend Hedo or Lewis).. He literally formed super-teams because of this loss - if he wins the 09' East, he never team-hops.