Who is the soccer GOAT?

[1987_Lakers]

???

[highwhey]

Ronaldo

[ShawkFactory]

Ronaldo should be in the poll. I didn’t watch Pele or Maradona at all so it’d be between Messi and Ronaldo. I think Messi is better overall.

Mbappe is coming though.

[Yeezy]

messi the goat soccer player
gretzky the goat hockey player
brady the goat football player
GSP the goat fighter
Ruth the goat baseball player


after luka takes the nba crown we got em all boys

[ArbitraryWater]

Ronaldo.

[SouBeachTalents]

Srs question, do y'all mean Ronaldo or Christiano Ronaldo? Is the latter in GOAT discussions?

[Smook A.]

Srs question, do y'all mean Ronaldo or Christiano Ronaldo? Is the latter in GOAT discussions?

Cristiano definitely, and yeah his name is always mentioned when people discuss the football/soccer GOAT

[Smook A.]

I think after this World Cup win, Messi is the GOAT.

[Manny98]

Messi cemented GOAT today

[Lee]

Brazilian Ronaldo ( two world cups) & Mbappe ( one world cup, but will win another in the future) are the top two to me. Because I value their speed to beat any defenders.

[Lee]

Too bad Haaland is Norwegian, he will never win the world cup like Shevchenko with Ukraine & Ronaldo with Portugal.

[TheMan]

Maradona is my GOAT still but if you have Messi as you GOAT, not gonna get into an argument over it.

[bladefd]

How do the 3 compare career stats-wise? I have never watched Pele or Maradona or even compared their stats. Never really got into soccer.

[1987_Lakers]

Srs question, do y'all mean Ronaldo or Christiano Ronaldo? Is the latter in GOAT discussions?

This is why I didn't mention Ronaldo. Messi is already considered greater by most and was afraid some would mistake the choice for Brazilian Ronaldo.

[BurningHammer]

How do the 3 compare career stats-wise? I have never watched Pele or Maradona or even compared their stats. Never really got into soccer.

Pele - 3 WC victories in 3 different decades. 1000+ goals professionally. Shit tons of awards and individual accomplishments with Santos and Brazil.
Maradona - carrying Argentina to the WC champ and mid-tier Napoli into pro club powerhouse.
Messi - Like Maradona but longer career and even more records. The world record most goals in one calendar year.

[Chuckbe]

The real Ronaldo.

[1987_Lakers]

Pele - 3 WC victories in 3 different decades. 1000+ goals professionally. Shit tons of awards and individual accomplishments with Santos and Brazil.
Maradona - carrying Argentina to the WC champ and mid-tier Napoli into pro club powerhouse.
Messi - Like Maradona but longer career and even more records. The world record most goals in one calendar year.

Lol. Pele's 1000+ goals include friendly games. He officially has less goals than Messi and Ronaldo. One of his world cup wins came when he only played like 1 game in the tournament due to injury.

[ArbitraryWater]

Srs question, do y'all mean Ronaldo or Christiano Ronaldo? Is the latter in GOAT discussions?

Bruh are you retarded?

Lmao



The former is in no serious GOAT discussions. Had like 5 elite seasons and scored 9 CL goals in his life.

Cristiano has 120 lol.

When people say Ronaldo in GOAT debates, they mean the Portugese one.

[dankok8]

Bruh are you retarded?

Lmao



The former is in no serious GOAT discussions. Had like 5 elite seasons and scored 9 CL goals in his life.

Cristiano has 120 lol.

When people say Ronaldo in GOAT debates, they mean the Portugese one.

R9 had a better peak than Cristiano to a lot of people.

His international resume is super strong as well.

[warriorfan]

op likes manlets because he is one

[ArbitraryWater]

R9 had a better peak than Cristiano to a lot of people.

His international resume is super strong as well.

Let's be real. R9 has absolutey no case against CR7.

"international resume" is just another way of saying he was born in the better country.

If CR7 was born in Brazil and R9 in Portugal, their international achievements would be swapped.

[ArbitraryWater]

Literally the BDOR Ranking from this year:


https://i.gyazo.com/b5c11d63551490cc79126a2a94a38abf.png



A 2-years younger Messi was not able to top Ronaldo.

In fact, he was so bad he couldn't even make the top 25.


And Ronaldo is 20 while he tanked the start of the new season. Would be top 10 otherwise.



But now Messi is the goat cause of the 7-game WC. Funny.

[dankok8]

Literally the BDOR Ranking from this year:


https://i.gyazo.com/b5c11d63551490cc79126a2a94a38abf.png



A 2-years younger Messi was not able to top Ronaldo.

In fact, he was so bad he couldn't even make the top 25.


And Ronaldo is 20 while he tanked the start of the new season. Would be top 10 otherwise.



But now Messi is the goat cause of the 7-game WC. Funny.

Yea and if Real from 2010-2018 had prime R9 instead, they'd also have a lot of CL's. R9 was an unreal World Cup player. Sure he got fed by good players but he also stepped up in a big way against strong opponents. I personally have CR > R9 but it's not weird to think R9 peaked higher.

Last year's BDO vote for a travesty. Clearly many people were pissed Messi won in 2021 so they punished him by leaving him off the ballot. He also missed a lot of games due to Covid and injury. And he really had a bad season in 2021-22 worst since like 2006. But that doesn't change that in 2022 he's probably the best player in the world again.

[Overdrive]

Literally the BDOR Ranking from this year:


https://i.gyazo.com/b5c11d63551490cc79126a2a94a38abf.png



A 2-years younger Messi was not able to top Ronaldo.

In fact, he was so bad he couldn't even make the top 25.


And Ronaldo is 20 while he tanked the start of the new season. Would be top 10 otherwise.



But now Messi is the goat cause of the 7-game WC. Funny.

You used Ronaldo's weak ass EC win as some sort of legitimation before. An EC where Portugal won one game. A final where Ronaldo had no say in it and Portugal won on a lucky punch.

I'm 100% sure how you'd react if Portugal won this WC.

[LeCola]

7-8 years ago I used to say, there is no clear GOAT but Messi is better than Ronaldo.

Then Ronaldo won 4 CL's in 5 years and I started to say Ronaldo is GOAT, second place is not clear. Messi, Maradona, Pele and Stefano are candidates.

Now, just after WC2022, I say:

Ronaldo is GOAT

Messi is second and clearly better than Maradona

Mbappe is very close to Fenomeno Ronaldo. He is a WC star like him. He probably missed his chance to be GOAT while stay in PSG.

[ArbitraryWater]

You used Ronaldo's weak ass EC win as some sort of legitimation before. An EC where Portugal won one game. A final where Ronaldo had no say in it and Portugal won on a lucky punch.

I'm 100% sure how you'd react if Portugal won this WC.


Oh how quickly they forget.

Ronaldo had a pretty average EURO's, and even then he scored 3 goals in 6 matches + 30 minutes of overtime and 1 nice assist. Messi scored 3 in-play goals in 7 matches + 80 minutes of overtime / added time and 1 great assist.

Ronaldo scored actual quality goals, including a backheel which kept Portugal in the tournament against Hungary. He scored twice to save them from eimination against Hungary and opened the semifinal scoring with a classy header.

Messi had a mere 2 classy goals, 1 tap in and 4 penaties.


Even in Messi's best ever international tournament, he was inferior to Ronado having a run-of-the-mill tournament.

Ronado's best EURO was 2012 and his best WC was 2018, where he was far better than 2022 Messi.

[dankok8]

Oh how quickly they forget.

Ronaldo had a pretty average EURO's, and even then he scored 3 goals in 6 matches + 30 minutes of overtime and 1 nice assist. Messi scored 3 in-play goals in 7 matches + 80 minutes of overtime / added time and 1 great assist.

Ronaldo scored actual quality goals, including a backheel which kept Portugal in the tournament against Hungary. He scored twice to save them from eimination against Hungary and opened the semifinal scoring with a classy header.

Messi had a mere 2 classy goals, 1 tap in and 4 penaties.


Even in Messi's best ever international tournament, he was inferior to Ronado having a run-of-the-mill tournament.

Ronado's best EURO was 2012 and his best WC was 2018, where he was far better than 2022 Messi.

You've got to be trolling with the bold... :facepalm

By the way Messi has more non-penalty goals (685 to 673) in his career despite playing way fewer matches (1003 to 1145). You sure you want to discard penalties? Messi also destroys Ronaldo in terms of assists and creating chances in general.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yea and if Real from 2010-2018 had prime R9 instead, they'd also have a lot of CL's. R9 was an unreal World Cup player. Sure he got fed by good players but he also stepped up in a big way against strong opponents. I personally have CR > R9 but it's not weird to think R9 peaked higher.

Last year's BDO vote for a travesty. Clearly many people were pissed Messi won in 2021 so they punished him by leaving him off the ballot. He also missed a lot of games due to Covid and injury. And he really had a bad season in 2021-22 worst since like 2006. But that doesn't change that in 2022 he's probably the best player in the world again.


lol pease. R9 played with the original Galacticos. Zidane, Raul, Figo, Beckham, Makelele, Cambiasso, Roberto Carlos....

he had the most stacked team in the word. The reason they lost C tie after C tie is because R9 did not deliver. RM were the favorites every year.

The probem is, after Ronaldo's Hattrick against United in 2003, he scored 1 goal in the next 10 KO matches from 2003-2006, and RM exited QF-QF-R16-R16.

They would have won 1 Cl at best from 2010-2018. R9 did nothing to show he coud ever step up and deiver in the same fashion CR7 did. He slacked and his fitness declined every year.

[ArbitraryWater]

You've got to be trolling with the bold... :facepalm

By the way Messi has more non-penalty goals (685 to 673) in his career despite playing way fewer matches (1003 to 1145). You sure you want to discard penalties? Messi also destroys Ronaldo in terms of assists and creating chances in general.

We can absoutey discard penalties.

It would show just how weak Messi is internationally.

Ronaldo's 5 best games for Portuga are better than Messi's best. Spain Hattrick at WC, Sweden Hattrick to get to the WC in final rubber, Netherlands brace to advance to R16 and kick out the WC Finalists, Bosnia brace to qualify for EUROs in final rubber, and many more opening and decisive goals that Messi never could achieve.

If football had advanced technical stats that could measure the difficulty/strength of goas (by using a metric that woud gauge how often goas were scored out of these positions/set-ups), Ronaldo woud already be widely regarded as superior to Messi.

And when you add the importance of goals, it becomes a no brainer.

Messi had a combined 5 Copa America/WC finals before this year and he managed 0 goals. In 440 minutes of play. Uttery horrible.

Now he needed 120 minutes more to manage his first in-play goal, a tap in.


No amount of sunday chance creation against Gijon will ever make up the utter deficit in Cl/big match play between the two. Nor in leadership.


Year for Year Messis teams got exposed in the C for their fawed, possession-heavy stye. Year for year Messi was bocked out from scoring simpy by piing up a men behind the ball.

Ronaldo was not stopped by this because he had the longshot ball and the aerial presence, and thus he bagged hattricks against the 2 best defenses in the word in 2017 consecutively, when he ran through Bayern and Atetico before scoring another 2 against Juve in the final, the 3rd best defense.

Its a no brainer.

If you want to win, you take Ronaldo.

[dankok8]

We can absoutey discard penalties.

It would show just how weak Messi is internationally.

Ronaldo's 5 best games for Portuga are better than Messi's best. Spain Hattrick at WC, Sweden Hattrick to get to the WC in final rubber, Netherlands brace to advance to R16 and kick out the WC Finalists, Bosnia brace to qualify for EUROs in final rubber, and many more opening and decisive goals that Messi never could achieve.

If football had advanced technical stats that could measure the difficulty/strength of goas (by using a metric that woud gauge how often goas were scored out of these positions/set-ups), Ronaldo woud already be widely regarded as superior to Messi.

And when you add the importance of goals, it becomes a no brainer.

Messi had a combined 5 Copa America/WC finals before this year and he managed 0 goals. In 440 minutes of play. Uttery horrible.

Now he needed 120 minutes more to manage his first in-play goal, a tap in.


No amount of sunday chance creation against Gijon will ever make up the utter deficit in Cl/big match play between the two. Nor in leadership.


Year for Year Messis teams got exposed in the C for their fawed, possession-heavy stye. Year for year Messi was bocked out from scoring simpy by piing up a men behind the ball.

Ronaldo was not stopped by this because he had the longshot ball and the aerial presence, and thus he bagged hattricks against the 2 best defenses in the word in 2017 consecutively, when he ran through Bayern and Atetico before scoring another 2 against Juve in the final, the 3rd best defense.

Its a no brainer.

If you want to win, you take Ronaldo.

Messi had 5 goals and 2 insane assists in 4 KO matches and participated in 70% of his team's goals. Imagine thinking that's "weak internationally" :facepalm

[KNOW1EDGE]

The original Ronaldo.

[ArbitraryWater]

Messi had 5 goals and 2 insane assists in 4 KO matches and participated in 70% of his team's goals. Imagine thinking that's "weak internationally" :facepalm

Haha, I ike how you dodge a context at this point.

Scoring penaties is no indication of quality. Its an indication of shooting penaties well. I could score from a penalty.

Messi had 2 in-play goals in the KO matches, and one was a tap in in the 113th minute.

1 in-play goal in 4 KO matches through 90 minutes. EXTREMEY weak.


Its a recurring theme for Messi in the KO stages. Always 2nd best to Ronaldo.


Ronado scored more KO goals in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020. 1 less in 2012, because Messi scored a useess 5 goals against leverkusen and had a brace of penalties against AC Milan. Ronado again with more in-play goals.

And its because Messi aways, in every singe one of those years, went scoreless AND assist-less in the QF (and 2013 SF) and exited as result. In 2019 Messi scored 1 more but Ronaldo actually still had a better goals per game rate (5 in 4 vs. 6 in 6).

Same story every time. Weve seen it a hundred times. Hes always been better.

[dankok8]

Haha, I ike how you dodge a context at this point.

Scoring penaties is no indication of quality. Its an indication of shooting penaties well. I could score from a penalty.

Messi had 2 in-play goals in the KO matches, and one was a tap in in the 113th minute.

1 in-play goal in 4 KO matches through 90 minutes. EXTREMEY weak.


Its a recurring theme for Messi in the KO stages. Always 2nd best to Ronaldo.


Ronado scored more KO goals in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018. The only reason Messi had more in 2012 is because he scored a useless 5 goals against everkusen. And its because Messi aways, in every singe one of those years, went scoreess AND assist-less in the QF (and 2013 SF) and exited as result.

Same story every time. Weve seen it a hundred times.

World Cup KO Matches
Messi: 2 non-PK goals, 3 pens, 6 assists in 12 matches
Ronaldo: 0 non-PK goals, 0 pens, 0 assists in 8 matches

Copa/Euro KO Matches Only
Messi: 5 non-PK goals, 0 pens, 12 assists in 16 matches
Ronaldo: 3 non-PK goals, 0 pens, 2 assists in 11 matches

All Major Tournaments KO Matches Only
Messi: 7 non-PK goals, 3 pens, 18 assists in 28 matches
Ronaldo: 3 non-PK goals, 0 pens, 2 assists in 19 matches

Even removing penalties, Messi has a massive edge in the KO stages of international tournaments.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yeah, but again, youre intentionally removing context.

Almost all of those Ronado KO matches came in 2004 and 2006 when he was not a scorer yet or in his prime.

If you look at it ike that, one could conclude Messi was better CA vs. EUROs and at the WCs.

But, Ronaldo payed 2 full WC KO stage matches since after 2006. In 2006 he wasnt even a goascorer yet. 1 of those 2 matches was against 2010 Spain who did not conceed a single goal in a 4 KO stage matches.

Messi played 6 KO stages matches at the peak of his powers from 2010-2018 and score ZERO goals. 4 more in 2022 and scored 1 in-play goal. Thats embarrassing.

His CA rate is worse also once you realize that 4 of Ronaldos matches came in 2004 when he was 19 and had never even scored 10 goals in a season.

After that he still managed 3 goas in 7 matches, 6 matches if we account for the 2016 Final he had to exit after 20 minutes.

So removing the pre-scoring stages, Ronaldo once more blows Messi out of the water.


Then you get to the Cl and the difference increases.

There is no debate here. Ronaldo just performs better.

[dankok8]

Yeah, but again, youre intentionally removing context.

Almost all of those Ronado KO matches came in 2004 and 2006 when he was not a scorer yet or in his prime.

If you look at it ike that, one could conclude Messi was better CA vs. EUROs and at the WCs.

But, Ronaldo payed 2 full WC KO stage matches since after 2006. In 2006 he wasnt even a goascorer yet. 1 of those 2 matches was against 2010 Spain who did not conceed a single goal in a 4 KO stage matches.

Messi played 6 KO stages matches at the peak of his powers from 2010-2018 and score ZERO goals. 4 more in 2022 and scored 1 in-play goal. Thats embarrassing.

His CA rate is worse also once you realize that 4 of Ronaldos matches came in 2004 when he was 19 and had never even scored 10 goals in a season.

After that he still managed 3 goas in 7 matches, 6 matches if we account for the 2016 Final he had to exit after 20 minutes.

So removing the pre-scoring stages, Ronaldo once more blows Messi out of the water.


Then you get to the Cl and the difference increases.

There is no debate here. Ronaldo just performs better.

You're removing context as well. Messi was a puppy prior to 2009 and until 2012 played as a pseudo-midfielder for Argentina.

Ronaldo isn't blowing anything out of the water. He has 0 goals and 0 assists in the KO stages of the World Cup. Zero!!

Messi has 2 Golden Ball at the World Cup and 2 Golden Ball at the Copa America. Ronaldo has none. That seals it right there. Just accept reality that Messi is better. Most of the world thinks so. You will hardly find anyone credible making this comparison anymore.

I respect you as a poster and you seem like a cool dude but your takes on this make no sense.

[hold this L]

It's Messi now, let it go

[Chick Stern]

Messi’s story is interesting.
He had some hormone issue that stunted his growth and was too poor to get it completely corrected.
A Spanish club agreed to foot the expensive bill and he took daily shots.
His overall short stature allows him to slip by others.

[Overdrive]

Yeah, but again, youre intentionally removing context.

Almost all of those Ronado KO matches came in 2004 and 2006 when he was not a scorer yet or in his prime.

If you look at it ike that, one could conclude Messi was better CA vs. EUROs and at the WCs.

But, Ronaldo payed 2 full WC KO stage matches since after 2006. In 2006 he wasnt even a goascorer yet. 1 of those 2 matches was against 2010 Spain who did not conceed a single goal in a 4 KO stage matches.

Messi played 6 KO stages matches at the peak of his powers from 2010-2018 and score ZERO goals. 4 more in 2022 and scored 1 in-play goal. Thats embarrassing.

His CA rate is worse also once you realize that 4 of Ronaldos matches came in 2004 when he was 19 and had never even scored 10 goals in a season.

After that he still managed 3 goas in 7 matches, 6 matches if we account for the 2016 Final he had to exit after 20 minutes.

So removing the pre-scoring stages, Ronaldo once more blows Messi out of the water.


Then you get to the Cl and the difference increases.

There is no debate here. Ronaldo just performs better.

Why couldn't Ronaldo play more KO matches? Not like his teams lacked talent. How can a team like his fail to qualify over the US? At some point Ronaldo has to be held accountable for the failures.

All you do is lauding him for his statpadded goals on one of the most stacked teams ever. Sure Ronaldo scoring CL goals vs Wolfsburg is greater than winning the WC.

[iamgine]

Greatness is about accomplishment. I think Messi is now above Cristiano Ronaldo in that department with a world cup win.

As for who's the better player, the debate continues.

[ArbitraryWater]

Why couldn't Ronaldo play more KO matches? Not like his teams lacked talent. How can a team like his fail to qualify over the US? At some point Ronaldo has to be held accountable for the failures.

All you do is lauding him for his statpadded goals on one of the most stacked teams ever. Sure Ronaldo scoring CL goals vs Wolfsburg is greater than winning the WC.

Congratulations, everything you wrote is generalized and false.

His teams absoutey lacked talent. Im not gonna have a serious conversation with you over trying to argue he shoud have achieved more with Nani as his running mate. He did just fine.

In 2008 he had a great group with Switzerand/Czech/Turkey, made it out first, but as bad luck woud have it Germany finished 2nd and would become their QF opponent, the 2nd best team. In 2010 he was placed into a group with Brazil, expectedly came out 2nd and then played Spain, the best team. In 2012 he had a group with Germany and Netherands, made it out 2nd behind Germany, lost to Spain on penaties, the best team.

In 2014 Ronado had a knee injury, he would have probaby not even played that WC if it was not a WC.
https://www.90min.com/in/posts/fascinating-twitter-thread-reveals-ronaldo-was-diagnosed-with-a-knee-condition-in-2014-that-has-no-cure-01ecf0x9fwxv
http://en.espn.co.uk/football/sport/story/354461.html "Ronaldo 'risked career' by playing through pain barrier"
https://www.sportbible.com/football/news-reactions-legends-the-condition-cristiano-ronaldo-was-diagnosed-with-in-2014-20210704
https://www.news18.com/news/football/shocking-cristiano-ronaldos-2014-knee-injury-may-have-worsened-over-the-years-3927944.html

In fact, there were doubts if he would start the UC Final:
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2071719-2014-uefa-champions-league-final-injury-hit-cristiano-ronaldo-set-to-start

Not sure if you remember, but he was subbed out in the SF 1st leg against Bayern. He laso missed 4 of the ast 7 eague matches with these knee issues, while scoring in 8 of the last 9 matches he payed before that.

And still, he actually had a brilliant assist against the US. The only reason they exited is because of the order of play. Portugal played Germany first when Germany still had something to play for, and then USA payed them last when Germany was aready through. But that WC needs no excuses, as valid as they are, to begin with. And Messi hasnt lost to worse teams at the WC, right? Have some awareness.

He didnt underachieve.

But Im not sure I can take you seriousy from this point forward if you boil down his Cl prowess to scoring goals against Wofsburg. Btw, Wofsburg or not, point me to any other payer who from a 0-2 deficit bang a hattrick in the 2nd leg. Go ahead. You honestly dont deserve to even watch this man. "talk about Ronaldos failures" :facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

It's Messi now, let it go

Im not surprised someone as casual and stoopid as you who once made the argument "leBron won 1 ring the last 5 seasons, how is he relevant?" (right before he then won another) would believe this :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

You're removing context as well. Messi was a puppy prior to 2009 and until 2012 played as a pseudo-midfielder for Argentina.

Ronaldo isn't blowing anything out of the water. He has 0 goals and 0 assists in the KO stages of the World Cup. Zero!!

Messi has 2 Golden Ball at the World Cup and 2 Golden Ball at the Copa America. Ronaldo has none. That seals it right there. Just accept reality that Messi is better. Most of the world thinks so. You will hardly find anyone credible making this comparison anymore.

I respect you as a poster and you seem like a cool dude but your takes on this make no sense.

Youre literally ignoring everything Im saying in order to keep your word view intact :lol

Take the red pill, dude. I will make you take it.

The WC/Euro/CA is gimmick stuff. Its played once every 4 years and highy dependant on circumstances, form, teammates. You never made that argument a year ago, but now its a you know and the CL no onger exists. Hehe.

You know the CL is a better indicator of performance, where both handpicked their teams (the 2 best teams for a decade) and had everything they coud ask for.

We, we can remove the 2007 CA but that actuay woudnt be fair to Messi cause it was a good scoring CA for Messi. And both Ronado and Messi started their prime that year, finishing 2nd and 3rd in the BDOR Race.


Ronaldo isn't blowing anything out of the water. He has 0 goals and 0 assists in the KO stages of the World Cup. Zero!!

Bro, who cares? These are the full KO stage matches he has payed at the Word Cup since becoming a scorer: 2010 R16 vs. Spain, 2018 R16 vs. Uruguay.

I would have to be a complete moron for acting ike this is some sort of relevant sample size. People only do this because they feel like its a necessary argument to make, as simple as it is. Its the WC, right?

Non-penalty KO stage goals EURO/CA since 2007:

Ronaldo: 3 in 8 matches, full matches: 3 in 5 matches, 0.6 GPG
Messi: 5 in 16 matches, full matches: 5 in 16 matches, 0.31 GPG

Like I said, Ronado blows Messi out of the water. Its not even cose. You woud literally have to shut out all logic in your head and act like Ronado playing 20 minutes against France, 15 against Switzerand, 40 against Morocco, or count matches he played in 2004, woud be of relevance.

Non-penalty KO stage matches WC since 2007/2010:
Ronaldo: 0 in 2 full matches
Messi: 2 in 10 full matches, the 2nd being a 113th minute tap

I think we all know given Ronados track record, that if he would have played 10 KO matches being blessed with the teammates Messi had (DiMaria/Aguero/Higuain/Tevez), its highly probable he would have done better than that piss poor record.

Lets do CL:

2007:
Ronaldo: 3 goals in 6 matches, 0.5 GPG (1 in the SF)
Messi: 0 goals in 2 matches, 0 GPG (0 in the SF)

2008:
Ronaldo: 3 goals in 6 matches, 0.5 GPG (0 in SF)
Messi: 2 goals in 4 matches, 0.5 GPG (0 in the SF)

2009:
Ronaldo: 4 goals in 7 matches, 0.57 GPG (2 in SF)
Messi: 4 goals in 7 matches, 0.57 GPG (0 in SF)

2010:
Ronaldo: 1 goal in 2 matches, 0.5 GPG
Messi: 6 goals in 6 matches (4 coming from 1 game), 1 GPG (0 in the SF)

2011:
Ronaldo: 2 goals in 6 matches, 0.25 GPG (0 in SF)
Messi: 6 goals in 7 matches, 0.85 GPG, (2 in SF)

2012:
Ronaldo: 7 goals in 6 matches, 1.16 GPG (2 in SF)
Messi: 8 goals in 6 matches (5 coming from 1 game), 1.33 GPG (0 in the SF) -- he actually ony scored in 3 matches, but had the 5-goal outlier in an exhibition 2nd leg

2013:
Ronaldo: 6 goals in 6 matches, 1 GPG (1 in SF)
Messi: 3 goals in 6 matches, 0.5 GPG (0 in the SF)

2014:
Ronaldo: 8 goals in 6 matches, 1.33 GPG (2 in SF)
Messi: 2 goals in 4 matches, 0.5 GPG (0 in the QF)

2015:
Ronaldo: 5 goals in 6 matches, 0.83 GPG (1 in SF)
Messi: 2 goals in 7 matches, 0.29 GPG (2 in SF)

2016:
Ronaldo: 5 goals in 6 matches, 0.83 GPG *while injured last 2 matches
Messi: 3 goals in 4 matches, 0.75 GPG (0 in the QF)

2017:
Ronaldo: 10 goals in 7 matches, 1.43 GPG (3 in SF, 2 in F -- greatest run ever)
Messi: 1 goal in 4 matches, 0.25 GPG (0 in the QF)

2018:
Ronaldo: 6 goals in 7 matches, 0.85 GPG (3 in QF)
Messi: 3 goals in 4 matches, 0.75 GPG (0 in the QF)

2019:
Ronaldo: 5 goals in 4 matches, 1.25 GPG (2 in QF)
Messi: 6 goals in 6 matches, 1 GPG (2 in QF)

2020:
Ronaldo: 2 goals in 2 matches, 1 GPG
Messi: 1 goal in 3 matches, 0.33 GPG (0 in the QF)

2021:
Ronaldo: 0 goals in 2 matches, 0 GPG
Messi: 2 goals in 2 matches, 1 GPG

When you look at the goals one-by-one and the fashion they came in, the lead widens for Ronado.

Amost every time Messi scored over 0.5 GPG he padded his counts against weakly R16 opponents like Arsena 2016, Chesea 2018, etc. back when that league was not competing for CL or Europa League.

Ronaldo has scored 25 goals in 22 QF matches, 1.13 GPG(!!!)
Messi has scored 12 goals in 22 QF matches, 0.54 GPG.

Ronaldo has scored 13 goals in 21 SF matches, 0.62 GPG.
Messi has scored 6 goals in 16 SF matches, 0.38 GPG.

Ronaldo has scored 4 goals in 6 F matches, 0.67 GPG.
Messi has 2 scored goals in 3 F matches, 0.67 GPG.


And yes, you can extend assists to this. Go ahead :lol Wait, let me do it.

Ronaldo had 3 assists in the 22 QF matches.
Messi had 3 assists in the 22 QF matches.

Ronaldo had 4 assists in the 27 SF/F matches.
Messi had 4 assists in the 19 SF/F matches.


So something has to give.

Either Ronaldo is the better big match player, or he is the more applicabe force due to his wider range of scoring skills, and could be put in positions that Messi was not able to thrive in against teams that parked the bus.


And the only reason Ronaldo played more SF/Fs, is because of how utterly useless Messi was in the majority of his QF matches. Not a CL goes by without Messi being production-less in the QF or SF, leading to exiting.


Notice how the ony argument favoring Messi is the artificial one? Where you have to forget how things actually were?

Its not cose dude. Give it up. Ronaldo is the more formidable player.

[ArbitraryWater]

Ronado has scored 25 goals in 22 QF matches, 1.13 GPG(!!!)
Messi has scored 12 goals in 22 QF matches, 0.54 GPG.

Ronado has scored 13 goals in 21 SF matches, 0.62 GPG.
Messi has scored 6 goals in 16 SF matches, 0.38 GPG.

Ronado has scored 4 goals in 6 F matches, 0.67 GPG.
Messi has 2 scored goals in 3 F matches, 0.67 GPG.

Assists: Both had 3 assists in the 22 QF matches, Ronaldo 4 assists in 27 SF/F matches, Messi 4 assists in 19 SF/F matches -- nothing gives


8 of those 12 Messi QF goals came in 3 matches.

Messi scored in 6 out of 23 QF matches. 5 out of 23 removing penaties.

Messi's ineptitude in QF/SF against elite teams:

2008:
SF: 0 goals, 0 assists - exit

2009:
SF: 0 goals, 0 assists - advance in most controversia game ever

2010:
SF: 0 goals, 0 assists - exit

2011:
SF: 2 goals, advance

2012:
SF: 0 goals, 1 assist - exit

2013:
SF: 0 goals, 0 assists - exit

2014:
QF: 0 goals, 0 assists - exit

2015:
SF: 2 goals, advance

2016:
QF: 0 goals, 0 assists - exit

2017:
QF: 0 goals, 0 assists - exit

2018:
QF: 0 goals, 0 assists - exit

2019:
SF: 2 goals, 0 assists - exit (0 goals in the 2nd leg)

2020:
QF: 0 goals, 0 assists - exit



I wanna drive home how insane that is and how wide the gap between the 2 is.


At the highest stage of football, Ronaldo has massively outperformed Messi.

Messi has been an absoute chump when it really mattered, against elite teams, when Barceona needed it, since forever.


Do you know how often Rea Madrid was in deep fukking shit against "average teams" like Gaatasaray, Schalke or Wolfsburg, and needed Ronado to bail them out? Unike Messi, Ronado stepped up. But yeah, R9 woud have won many CL's with "that" Madrid team...


And the more we break these stats down, the more they favor Ronaldo. He opened scoring more often, less goals with game out of reach, goals from further distance, etc.

This is because the majority of those games, Messi was lazy and spending most of the match waking, not putting in near the work rate of Ronaldo. And simpy not being the box threat aerially and presence Ronaldo was.
This is a typical Messi KO stage match:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tkbKQGpHXg

[FKAri]

I sympathize with Arbitirarywater because this World Cup is going to be overblown in terms of deciding Messi and Ronaldo's careers. Narratives already dominate sports which makes sense since it's entertainment and we should just enjoy the show rather than scrutinizing everything objectively. And in terms of narrative, Messi dominated and lifted the cup while Ronaldo got knocked out while benched with possible behind the scenes drama. However, looking at it objectively, this World Cup doesn't shouldn't move the needle much on ether's careers. A handful of games never can. If the Argentine keeper doesn't make that great save near the end of extra time, we'd be talking about how Messi "choked" a 2-0 lead. That would've been silly too.

[dankok8]

^ You're kidding right? You removed penalties for international tournaments and then also chose to only include Ronaldo's full games. And then for the CL suddenly you are including penalties and including Messi's games as a sub... :lol

And you're damn right I didn't make this international argument a year ago. Messi just had a historically great World Cup run. :facepalm

I could make a same type of list of Ronaldo CL games. That's just cherrypicking and we've been over it before. Messi has a superior goal rate in the R16 and Final and Ronaldo in QF and SF. Slight edge Ronaldo overall in terms of goalscoring in the KO rounds (goal every 113 minutes vs goal every 133 minutes) but Messi has a much better overall game. This is the argument you always run away from. Show me the chances created. You choose the metric you like.. key passes, chances created, big chances created... Messi dominates in all of them even in the KO stages. And has more MOTM awards per KO match played. Whether it's official MOTM or WhoScored.

[TheMan]

AW's dislike of Messi is on par with 3ball's dislike of LeBron :lol Both have become irrational.

[ArbitraryWater]

^ You're kidding right? You removed penalties for international tournaments and then also chose to only include Ronaldo's full games. And then for the CL suddenly you are including penalties and including Messi's games as a sub... :lol

And you're damn right I didn't make this international argument a year ago. Messi just had a historically great World Cup run. :facepalm

I could make a same type of list of Ronaldo CL games. That's just cherrypicking and we've been over it before. Messi has a superior goal rate in the R16 and Final and Ronaldo in QF and SF. Slight edge Ronaldo overall in terms of goalscoring in the KO rounds (goal every 113 minutes vs goal every 133 minutes) but Messi has a much better overall game. This is the argument you always run away from. Show me the chances created. You choose the metric you like.. key passes, chances created, big chances created... Messi dominates in all of them even in the KO stages. And has more MOTM awards per KO match played. Whether it's official MOTM or WhoScored.

Cherrypicking :oldlol:

Go ahead and excude pens from cl. It does not make a difference.

Ony 2 of those Messi Cl KO games were ess than 45 minutes. Another was 1 half (PSG 2nd leg) but he scored, so it woud be a disfavor to Messi not to include it. Ronaldo also had a couple shorted 60-min ish games in there in which he did not score.

Of course accounting for full matches played makes more sense in a sample size of 11 games, when you wanna count Ronaldo playing 15 ****ing minutes twice and 40 minutes another time to act ike it paints a fair picture to an unrepresentative sampe size to begin with.

Messi does not have a superior F scoring rate but its irrelevant anyway cause hes payed 3 Finas in his life lol. You trying to equate that to the 50+ QF/SF voume is hilarious and shows how bad Messi has it.

And nobody cares about their R16 play. Barca and Real top their group every year and play a sizeabe underdog in R16 which they could beat without Ronado/Messi also. What a lucky fan you are that Messi was abe to run up the score on those subpar teams and then disappear in the QF every time. And Messi does not even have an edge there...

Youre not making any sense anymore and you will never be able to rebuke those facts. Instead you have to fawn over miniature WC sample sizes while ignoring context to them.

[ArbitraryWater]

AW's dislike of Messi is on par with 3ball's dislike of LeBron :lol Both have become irrational.

Im literay just posting their production from all big matches.

How quickly a of you ****ing forgot.



Ronaldo has drastically dominated Messi at the highest eve for neary an entire decade.

But this wooey gooey WC run puts Messi over the top..... sure. If you guys wanna live in fantasy land, go ahead.

[ArbitraryWater]

I sympathize with Arbitirarywater because this World Cup is going to be overblown in terms of deciding Messi and Ronaldo's careers. Narratives already dominate sports which makes sense since it's entertainment and we should just enjoy the show rather than scrutinizing everything objectively. And in terms of narrative, Messi dominated and lifted the cup while Ronaldo got knocked out while benched with possible behind the scenes drama. However, looking at it objectively, this World Cup doesn't shouldn't move the needle much on ether's careers. A handful of games never can. If the Argentine keeper doesn't make that great save near the end of extra time, we'd be talking about how Messi "choked" a 2-0 lead. That would've been silly too.

Bingo.

They go with story over substance every time.


Mbappe was ceary the best payer this WC, but who woud honesty have the courage to give him the award? The Word woud be coming for your head if they didnt give it to Messi. Everybody woud want to see him get it.

He has the GOAT storyine.

[FKAri]

Bingo.

They go with story over substance every time.


Mbappe was ceary the best payer this WC, but who woud honesty have the courage to give him the award? The Word woud be coming for your head if they didnt give it to Messi. Everybody woud want to see him get it.

He has the GOAT storyine.

I wouldn't consider Messi winning it egregious but it was a bit like Kobe's MVP or Leo's Oscar. But again I suspect you're only looking at the "cold facts" because it's Messi that's being celebrated. If Portugal had just won and Ronaldo and Messi had swapped results this World cup you'd be here talking about how this proves Ronaldo > Messi and that he's a big match player while Messi's a choker. And you definitely would be bringing up the benching and associated rumors.

[dankok8]

I sympathize with Arbitirarywater because this World Cup is going to be overblown in terms of deciding Messi and Ronaldo's careers. Narratives already dominate sports which makes sense since it's entertainment and we should just enjoy the show rather than scrutinizing everything objectively. And in terms of narrative, Messi dominated and lifted the cup while Ronaldo got knocked out while benched with possible behind the scenes drama. However, looking at it objectively, this World Cup doesn't shouldn't move the needle much on ether's careers. A handful of games never can. If the Argentine keeper doesn't make that great save near the end of extra time, we'd be talking about how Messi "choked" a 2-0 lead. That would've been silly too.

Normally I'd agree with you but this WC does actually increase Messi's stature significantly. Some of the main arguments against him was that "He can't do it for Argentina. Copa America is weak and doesn't count..." or that "He's a system player. Outside of Barca he cannot dominate." or "Messi always misses penalties in important games." Messi destroyed all of these arguments. Left them for dead by having one of the best WC runs ever playing like prime Messi, winning the whole thing and making 5/5 penalties in the knockout matches.

[dankok8]

Cherrypicking :oldlol:

Go ahead and excude pens from cl. It does not make a difference.

Ony 2 of those Messi Cl KO games were ess than 45 minutes. Another was 1 half (PSG 2nd leg) but he scored, so it woud be a disfavor to Messi not to include it. Ronaldo also had a couple shorted 60-min ish games in there in which he did not score.

Of course accounting for full matches played makes more sense in a sample size of 11 games, when you wanna count Ronaldo playing 15 ****ing minutes twice and 40 minutes another time to act ike it paints a fair picture to an unrepresentative sampe size to begin with.

Messi does not have a superior F scoring rate but its irrelevant anyway cause hes payed 3 Finas in his life lol. You trying to equate that to the 50+ QF/SF voume is hilarious and shows how bad Messi has it.

And nobody cares about their R16 play. Barca and Real top their group every year and play a sizeabe underdog in R16 which they could beat without Ronado/Messi also. What a lucky fan you are that Messi was abe to run up the score on those subpar teams and then disappear in the QF every time. And Messi does not even have an edge there...

Youre not making any sense anymore and you will never be able to rebuke those facts. Instead you have to fawn over miniature WC sample sizes while ignoring context to them.

Dude I told you already. Messi averages a goal ever 133 minutes in the CL KO matches and Ronaldo averages a goal every 113 minutes in the CL KO matches. Doing it using minutes instead of games circumvents the silly "full game" argument. Ronaldo has a slightly better goal rate.

What about chance creation in the CL KO? Messi is a LOT BETTER at that. Since 2009-10 when this data becomes available Messi has 118 key passes (1.97 per match) and 27 big chances created (0.50 per match) to Ronaldo who has 97 key passes (1.56 per match) and 18 chances created (0.30 per match). Messi is a playmaking force and you can't define his impact using just goals.

[hold this L]

AW's dislike of Messi is on par with 3ball's dislike of LeBron :lol Both have become irrational.

When he started shitting on Modric and his achievements during his WC year when he helped push the team to a final despite him being a legendary player for Madrid, I knew he had lost the plot.

[dankok8]

And cut the "Mbappe had a better WC" bullshit. Messi had two insane historic assists in the QF and SF on top of two pens while Mbappe did nothing in the two matches preceding the final. He was invisible for the most part against both England and Morocco. Particularly against England which was their second toughest match he was awful.

[ShawkFactory]

And cut the "Mbappe had a better WC" bullshit. Messi had two insane historic assists in the QF and SF on top of two pens while Mbappe did nothing in the two matches preceding the final. He was invisible for the most part against both England and Morocco. Particularly against England which was their second toughest match he was awful.

Both were amazing passes. I'll equate to basketball because it's the only way I know how but he seemed to be Magic Johnson-esque with the way he played. Not Shaq, who seems to be more similar to how Ronaldo is.

I won't claim to be an expert based on their history or anything, but I know what I just saw. There were folks swarming with every touch he had throughout the tournament and he created a lot of opportunities.

You know it's bullshit when Messi's goal in extra time isn't counted for whatever reason.

[ArbitraryWater]

When he started shitting on Modric and his achievements during his WC year when he helped push the team to a final despite him being a legendary player for Madrid, I knew he had lost the plot.

I shit on Modric as any RM fan did that year. You werent watching but Modric decined that year.

The WC narrative made it very easy for a simpeton ike you to think something specia was happening though.

In reaity Croatia barey got by Denmark and Russia on pens whie Modric was busy missing penaties.

I shat on him because of the absurd narrative that he was the BITW that year.

[ArbitraryWater]

And cut the "Mbappe had a better WC" bullshit. Messi had two insane historic assists in the QF and SF on top of two pens while Mbappe did nothing in the two matches preceding the final. He was invisible for the most part against both England and Morocco. Particularly against England which was their second toughest match he was awful.

haha, what "insane historic assist" up 2-0 with the game dead and buried? Thats Messis speciaity.

Running up the score on dead, no-onger-trying teams.

*i cant write a etter

[ArbitraryWater]

Honesty none of you deserve the insights Ive offered in this thread.


Even pummeed dankok into submission. Mans giving haf assed 3 sentence repies, bewidered how I coud incude fu matches in his tiny insignifcant sampe size that he now gives precedence over due to how uttery superior Ronado has been in the champions eague.


isten up dankok. Where did Messis paymaking get him in a those champions eague exits? A those QFs? Where were they?

Guess what, goas are of the highest precedent.

And Messis mickey mouse passes coudnt break the barrier.

Thats when you need someone ike Ronado who broke through against any team, any strategy year after year whie Messi went ghost.

The ony times hes ever succeeded outside his 2 peak years (2011, 2015) have been extremey fortuitous circumstances. Same with Argentina. Individuay, he did nothing of note. Had 2 in pay goas and 1 great assist. Nothing after the QF.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dude I told you already. Messi averages a goal ever 133 minutes in the CL KO matches and Ronaldo averages a goal every 113 minutes in the CL KO matches. Doing it using minutes instead of games circumvents the silly "full game" argument. Ronaldo has a slightly better goal rate.

What about chance creation in the CL KO? Messi is a LOT BETTER at that. Since 2009-10 when this data becomes available Messi has 118 key passes (1.97 per match) and 27 big chances created (0.50 per match) to Ronaldo who has 97 key passes (1.56 per match) and 18 chances created (0.30 per match). Messi is a playmaking force and you can't define his impact using just goals.

Im not using a fu game barometer for the C since the sampe size is 50+ o.

Those numbers are the numbers.

Ronaldo has scored 25 goals in 22 QF matches, 1.13 GPG(!!!)
Messi has scored 12 goals in 22 QF matches, 0.54 GPG.

Ronaldo has scored 13 goals in 21 SF matches, 0.62 GPG.
Messi has scored 6 goals in 16 SF matches, 0.38 GPG.

Ronaldo has scored 4 goals in 6 F matches, 0.67 GPG.
Messi has 2 scored goals in 3 F matches, 0.67 GPG.

These are the numbers.

Its not even cose.

I aid it out year for year how Messi aid an egg in 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2020, and as a resut Barceona ost.

Where was a that chance creation in those years? He exited over and over.

He coudnt muster up more assists than Ronado, even though according to you thats where his superiority comes from.

Must be the weak receivers Messi had, right? Ibra/Via/Suarez faut....or not?

If Ronado had been that inept as Messi in those ties, he woudnt have won a singe champions eague those years.

But, he was superior.

[Manny98]

Why is this thread 4 pages

It's clearly Messi now after he won the Copa America and World Cup, it's no longer a debate

[ArbitraryWater]

Why is this thread 4 pages

It's clearly Messi now after he won the Copa America and World Cup, it's no longer a debate



I like how I feel like you only strengthen Ronalldos case, given the somewhat dull / dumbed down nature of your comment.

[ArbitraryWater]

Normally I'd agree with you but this WC does actually increase Messi's stature significantly. Some of the main arguments against him was that "He can't do it for Argentina. Copa America is weak and doesn't count..." or that "He's a system player. Outside of Barca he cannot dominate." or "Messi always misses penalties in important games." Messi destroyed all of these arguments. Left them for dead by having one of the best WC runs ever playing like prime Messi, winning the whole thing and making 5/5 penalties in the knockout matches.


5/5 penaties mao.

Messi wasnt even their best payer in the fina.

Di Maria was by far. He made those first 2 goas.

If Messi had the performance di Maria had, I coud actuay praise him. But he didnt do anything.

[Jud]

messi

[Manny98]

I like how I feel like you only strengthen Ronalldos case, given the somewhat dull / dumbed down nature of your comment.
How

Peak? Messi

Stats? Messi

Trophies? Messi

Balon D'ors? Messi

Ronaldo has no argument

[LeCola]

How

Peak? Messi

Stats? Messi

Trophies? Messi

Balon D'ors? Messi

Ronaldo has no argument

5 CL's > 3 CL's

4 CL's in 5 years > 2 CL's in 3 years

Three peat in CL > WC

Many players won WC as the star of a team.

Three peat in CL in modern era is something unique.

[Manny98]

5 CL's > 3 CL's

4 CL's in 5 years > 2 CL's in 3 years

Three peat in CL > WC

Many players won WC as the star of a team.

Three peat in CL in modern era is something unique.
So?

Messi still has more overall trophies and a better prime

[Manny98]

Messi wins head to head as well

https://i.postimg.cc/yxDwgNFk/Eou-TMp-Uw-AAr-Hy-V.jpg

[ShawkFactory]

Damn. It appears the Messi/Ronaldo discussion is way more contentious and unreasonable than the Kobe/Lebron or Lebron/Jordan one could ever be :lol

[dankok8]

haha, what "insane historic assist" up 2-0 with the game dead and buried? Thats Messis speciaity.

Running up the score on dead, no-onger-trying teams.

*i cant write a etter

Dude you were hating on Argentina for blowing a 2-0 lead late against France a few posts ago but now in the 69th minute a game is dead and buried. Again shifting goalposts... Messi made an insane play that will be replayed thousands of times for years.



Honesty none of you deserve the insights Ive offered in this thread.


Even pummeed dankok into submission. Mans giving haf assed 3 sentence repies, bewidered how I coud incude fu matches in his tiny insignifcant sampe size that he now gives precedence over due to how uttery superior Ronado has been in the champions eague.


isten up dankok. Where did Messis paymaking get him in a those champions eague exits? A those QFs? Where were they?

Guess what, goas are of the highest precedent.

And Messis mickey mouse passes coudnt break the barrier.

Thats when you need someone ike Ronado who broke through against any team, any strategy year after year whie Messi went ghost.

The ony times hes ever succeeded outside his 2 peak years (2011, 2015) have been extremey fortuitous circumstances. Same with Argentina. Individuay, he did nothing of note. Had 2 in pay goas and 1 great assist. Nothing after the QF.

Your arguments if you can even call them that are crazy at this point. And I know you understand football so you're trolling at this point.

For a team to score goals, chances have to be created = PLAYMAKING... and ... chances have to be converted = FINISHING. Messi and Ronaldo are more or less equally good in finishing chances and an argument can be made both ways even though even in this area alone more stats point towards Messi being a bit better. But at least an argument can be made. However, Messi's playmaking is miles ahead of Ronaldo's which brings his overall value as a forward way higher. The notion that playmaking is somehow less valuable than finishing is ludicrous. How often do we see teams with no world class playmakers win major titles? Real had Kroos, Modric, Marcelo and Benzema who all carried a large playmaking load.

As for Barca not wining more CL's since 2015, that's much more because of their faltering defense than their offense struggling. Barca allowed 5 goals to PSG in 2017, 4 goals to Roma in 2018, 4 goals to Liverpool in 2019, a whopping 8 goals in one leg to Bayern in 2020 and 5 goals to PSG in 2021. When your defense allows that many goals you're not going to win many CL ties. Even against Atleti in 2014 and 2016, they allowed 2 goals and 3 goals which doesn't seem like a lot but Real allowed much less when they faced Atleti in the CL. In 4 matches from 2014-2016 including two ET periods, Real allowed a total of 2 goals to Atleti.

[dankok8]

Damn. It appears the Messi/Ronaldo discussion is way more contentious and unreasonable than the Kobe/Lebron or Lebron/Jordan one could ever be :lol

It appears that Ronaldo fanbase's argument for him being better than Messi revolves around the idea that Messi's world class playmaking isn't valuable. That only finishing with a somewhat great emphasis on scoring headers is relevant to winning. Looks like sound reasoning on their part! :pimp:

[Yeezy]

https://i.ibb.co/dWzpTNm/Screenshot-20221223-190012-Gallery.jpg

[ArbitraryWater]

Messi wins head to head as well

https://i.postimg.cc/yxDwgNFk/Eou-TMp-Uw-AAr-Hy-V.jpg

Remove the mickey mouse cups (supercup) and you get a better picture.

From the 3 big competitions: CL, League, Cup, Ronado actually leads Messi in scoring in H2H.

https://i.gyazo.com/cc3b88ceae7a4c3eab4bb8f28c373670.png

https://i.gyazo.com/2349c194f14febf11e17efb45da2855e.png

Ronaldo actually has the record for most consecutive El Clasicos scored in (7).

[ArbitraryWater]

Dude you were hating on Argentina for blowing a 2-0 lead late against France a few posts ago but now in the 69th minute a game is dead and buried. Again shifting goalposts... Messi made an insane play that will be replayed thousands of times for years.

Are you seriousy trying to downtalk the magnitude of an opening goal or compare the magnitude/importance of a goal up 2+ goas to an opening gola?

Please check how many times out of how many times Barceona or Real drop points out of matches up 2+ goals.

Its not comparable.

Messi loves to do most of his work in the dead of the game against tired overcome defenses.

Again, no one has scored more goals with the game out of reach than him.

[ShawkFactory]

It appears that Ronaldo fanbase's argument for him being better than Messi revolves around the idea that Messi's world class playmaking isn't valuable. That only finishing with a somewhat great emphasis on scoring headers is relevant to winning. Looks like sound reasoning on their part! :pimp:

Yea it appears to be completely different styles of play. Kind of like comparing Shaq to like Bird or something.

Ronaldo gives you that huge finishing ability given his stature and athleticism (not that he also isn’t skilled) but Messi, while also being able to score better than almost anyone, seems to create so many opportunities whether directly or indirectly.

I don’t really have much vested inets rest but Messi’s game is beautiful and he does a lot of things really well. He’s so decisive.

[Manny98]

Remove the mickey mouse cups (supercup) and you get a better picture.

From the 3 big competitions: CL, League, Cup, Ronado actually leads Messi in scoring in H2H.

https://i.gyazo.com/cc3b88ceae7a4c3eab4bb8f28c373670.png

https://i.gyazo.com/2349c194f14febf11e17efb45da2855e.png

Ronaldo actually has the record for most consecutive El Clasicos scored in (7).

What kind of stat cherry picking is this? :oldlol:

Messi has more goals and assists in their head to head, that's a fact buddy

Copa del Rey :roll:

[dankok8]

Remove the mickey mouse cups (supercup) and you get a better picture.

From the 3 big competitions: CL, League, Cup, Ronado actually leads Messi in scoring in H2H.

https://i.gyazo.com/cc3b88ceae7a4c3eab4bb8f28c373670.png

https://i.gyazo.com/2349c194f14febf11e17efb45da2855e.png

Ronaldo actually has the record for most consecutive El Clasicos scored in (7).

Both Ronaldo CL goals against Messi were penalties in a group stage match. And Messi's 3 goals were in the SF and Finals in dominant performances. And none were pens.

Be consistent. We are not counting pens and only KO matches. Messi dominates Ronaldo H2H in the CL. Five KO matches in the SF and Finals, Messi with 3 goals and 2 MOTM, Ronaldo with 0 goals and a whole lot of nothing.


Are you seriousy trying to downtalk the magnitude of an opening goal or compare the magnitude/importance of a goal up 2+ goas to an opening gola?

Please check how many times out of how many times Barceona or Real drop points out of matches up 2+ goals.

Its not comparable.

Messi loves to do most of his work in the dead of the game against tired overcome defenses.

Again, no one has scored more goals with the game out of reach than him.

Messi scored the opening goal against Croatia too to go up 1-0 so there goes that argument.

The bolded is bullshit. Ronaldo was the one statpadding in a lot of CL runs particularly 2014. The whole clutch narrative is a bunch of baloney. No data to support it.

[PhutureDynasty]

Messi is clearly the greatest and best of his era. That much isn't debatable anymore.

The only question now is whether he's better and greater than Pele and Maradona. The answer to that is a resounding yes too.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/G4wTERfoPfA/maxresdefault.jpg

[ArbitraryWater]

Both Ronaldo CL goals against Messi were penalties in a group stage match. And Messi's 3 goals were in the SF and Finals in dominant performances. And none were pens.

Be consistent. We are not counting pens and only KO matches. Messi dominates Ronaldo H2H in the CL. Five KO matches in the SF and Finals, Messi with 3 goals and 2 MOTM, Ronaldo with 0 goals and a whole lot of nothing.



Messi scored the opening goal against Croatia too to go up 1-0 so there goes that argument.

The bolded is bullshit. Ronaldo was the one statpadding in a lot of CL runs particularly 2014. The whole clutch narrative is a bunch of baloney. No data to support it.


Ive spoken my peace.

The probem is, you can hang onto "key passes" and "chances created" from eague matches, and they wont win Messi any Cs. There is a reason why Ronado was far more successfu there, with a 5-3 gap that was 1 match from being 6-2.

We coud do it very bone by bone, too...

compare match for match every year, QF, SF...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xmTt076hGQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xVS3sPkKXI

*cont

[ArbitraryWater]

*cont


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZS1R2a0oTc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iff4OGr964Q


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BahMjv9CCiA

*cont

[ArbitraryWater]

*cont


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3xIhNSUHmA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlCkK-ZL5Yo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoLiOuDhDkQ

where is Messis chance creation? his great dribbes?

[dankok8]

Thing is I could post similar videos of Ronaldo's bad games and trust me his games were much worse. Ronaldo had UCL KO games with 0 goals, 0 assists, 0 key passes... zero everything. Or sometimes like 1 key pass or something. Look at their WhoScored or SofaScore player ratings.

Messi creating 50% more chances to score isn't something to dismiss. The fact that you're posting Chelsea 2009 or Juventus 2017 makes you look bad. Messi was really good in those ties. Atleti from 2014-2016 shut him down but they also shut down Ronaldo in the same span who didn't score against Atleti from 2014-2016 in the CL (not counting 120th minute pen up 3-1...). I'll give you 2018 Roma... That was a bad loss. But the others was losing to a good/better team while playing standard level football. Creating chances that teammates don't score shouldn't be penalized. That's why stats like key passes and big chances created (BCC) exist so we can better understand player contributions.

Anyways the whole argument started with this WC. Without penalties Messi still has 4 goal contributions (2G + 2A) in 4 KO matches. And he had a contribution in every game and was the MOTM in every match. His goal against Switzerland was class, his assist against Netherlands was insane, his dribble-assist play on Gvardiol against Croatia was insane and his goal against France in ET was nothing special and just a simple tap-in but it was still clutch AF. And yes he made 3/3 penalties in the KO stage and 2/2 more in the shootouts. Dude was a clutch god! He had one of the best WC winning runs ever and maybe the biggest carryjob ever. This Argentina team may be the worst team to win a WC as well apart from maybe 1986 Argentina.

Since I started watching the sport...

1998 France
2002 Brazil
2006 Italy
2010 Spain
2014 Germany
2018 France

All easily more talented than 2022 Argentina. And I'd say none of those teams had a player as good as 2022 Messi.