Why do people get so mad about the historical trends that I point out?

[3ba11]

Don't bother say I'm repetitive when Lebron23 gets to post the exact same bullshit 5 times a day

Accept the historical record - ball-dominators like Magic, Lebron or Luka can't rely on shooting over defenses - so they need all-star teammates and elite spacing to open things up for their drives to reach MVP status.. Ball-dominators also need more help (juggernaut sidekicks like Kareem or Wade) because they can't win organically (impose spot-up roles that stall young players) and can't have carry-jobs against top teams, aka carry bed-wetting sidekicks against top teams (too ball-dominant at carry-job volume).

Meanwhile, expert jumpshooters are the opposite - they can consistently shoot over defenses and therefore don't need all-star teammates or elite spacing to be MVP - they can also win with less (aka secondary producers at sidekick like Wiggins, Terry or Pippen) due to organic winning capability (their skillset develops teammates) and carry-jobs capability (they have sufficient brand of ball at carry-job volume to beat top teams).

These are historical trends with almost no exceptions.. Why do people get so mad as these theories are improved and tweaked with time - I'm not actually posting the exact same thing over and over, whereas Lebron23 and others are (and I don't mind, I'm just saying that I shouldn't be chastised for doing something that everyone else does and doesn't get knocked for).

[SouBeachTalents]

You seem much more mad LeBron left Kobe in the dust in the all time rankings and is considered by many to be in the GOAT convo. You spend 20 posts a day crying about it :lol

[tontoz]

Lebron23 at least posts about other topics.

[RRR3]

You seem much more mad LeBron left Kobe in the dust in the all time rankings and is considered by many to be in the GOAT convo. You spend 20 posts a day crying about it :lol
Snivelball.

[GrayGoat]

1-9

[3ba11]

You seem much more mad LeBron left Kobe in the dust in the all time rankings and is considered by many to be in the GOAT convo. You spend 20 posts a day crying about it :lol


I am disappointed that people don't see Kobe's advantages as an expert jumpshooter, which allowed him to win organically and carry the scoring load so he could win with less (secondary producer at sidekick)

He also needs less help because he can shoot over defenses, so he doesn't need the kind of spacing that Luka and Lebron need for their game to be FUNCTIONAL (to work at all) let alone thrive

[Kblaze8855]

Let’s say hypothetically that I agreed with everything you ever said at the first time you said it. The 219th time you said it would be like 200 times past me wanting you to shut the **** up.

You could tell me Jason Kidd was a great passer. That’s fine. After you tell me 1500 times I want you to go away from me. When everything you say directly or indirectly, is trying to point out to me that he is a good passer? I just want you to be quiet.

Every single person on this, and every other forum on every subject across the entirety of the Internet, who is singularly obsessed with one subject is annoying. It could be LeBron James, or blueberries, or Beethoven. If all I hear from you is the same thing I don’t want to hear from you at all.

Little secret here. I agreed with probably 90% of what you said for several years and I’m not entirely sure you don’t rank LeBron higher all time than I do. It’s really close either way. But you’re like the annoying holiday song playing Clock my girlfriend put in the living room. It only has like six songs and it plays one only hour every hour so I want to throw it in the ****ing fireplace. We compromised and I simply turn the volume way down. But I can’t turn your volume down without banning you and I generally don’t like to do that to anybody who was trying to talk basketball, even when they are unbelievably single minded, so here we are.

[3ba11]

Let’s say hypothetically that I agreed with everything you ever said at the first time you said it. The 219th time you said it would be like 200 times past me wanting you to shut the **** up.

You could tell me Jason Kidd was a great passer. That’s fine. After you tell me 1500 times I want you to go away from me. When everything you say directly or indirectly, is trying to point out to me that he is a good passer? I just want you to be quiet.

Every single person on this, and every other forum on every subject across the entirety of the Internet, who is singularly obsessed with one subject is annoying. It could be LeBron James, or blueberries, or Beethoven. If all I hear from you is the same thing I don’t want to hear from you at all.

Little secret here. I agreed with probably 90% of what you said for several years and I’m not entirely sure you don’t rank LeBron higher all time than I do. It’s really close either way. But you’re like the annoying holiday song playing Clock my girlfriend put in the living room. It only has like six songs and it plays one only hour every hour so I want to throw it in the ****ing fireplace. We compromised and I simply turn the volume way down. But I can’t turn your volume down without banning you and I generally don’t like to do that to anybody who was trying to talk basketball, even when they are unbelievably single minded, so here we are.


Well the reality is that people point out tiny exceptions to the historical rules that I point out (the one-off exception actually proves the rule)

For example, someone pointed out that Isiah carried the scoring load in the 90' Finals by leading Dumars by 7 ppg (27 to 20) - I don't think this constitutes carrying the scoring load since Dumars was equal-scoring partner for the playoffs as a whole and the Finals gap was only 7 points.

But nonetheless, I tweaked the theory to say that ball-dominators can't carry bed-wetting sidekicks over top teams, since there's zero examples of a ball-dominator beating a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick.

So the theories must be tweaked and details fleshed out - that's how it works when you're trying to get something right

And yes, this is just a hobby.. But still... it's gotta be right

[r15mohd]

Well the reality is that people point out tiny exceptions to the historical rules that I point out (the one-off exception actually proves the rule)

For example, someone pointed out that Isiah carried the scoring load in the 90' Finals by leading Dumars by 7 ppg (27 to 20) - I don't think this constitutes carrying the scoring load since Dumars was equal-scoring partner for the playoffs as a whole and the Finals gap was only 7 points.

But nonetheless, I tweaked the theory to say that ball-dominators can't carry bed-wetting sidekicks over top teams, since there's zero examples of a ball-dominator beating a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick.

So the theories must be tweaked and details fleshed out - that's how it works when you're trying to get something right

And yes, this is just a hobby.. But still... it's gotta be right


you tweaked the theory becuase someone dumbed down the thought of how stupid a theory it actually is...

thread cliffs: you moved the goal post to fit your agenda, as always!

[3ba11]

you tweaked the theory becuase someone dumbed down the thought of how stupid a theory it actually is...

thread cliffs: you moved the goal post to fit your agenda, as always!


It's historical record

Ball-dominators need all-star teammate to open up their drives so they can be MVP

And they need more help because they can't win organically or carry the scoring load against top teams.

Specifically, ball-dominators need more help (juggernaut sidekicks like Kareem or Wade) because they can't win organically (impose spot-up roles that stall young players) and can't have carry-jobs against top teams, aka carry bed-wetting sidekicks against top teams (too ball-dominant at carry-job volume).

[GrayGoat]

Historical record with no sources. More like historical bullshit copy pasted

[3ba11]

Historical record with no sources. More like historical bullshit copy pasted


The source is the historical record

Show me where a ball-dominator beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick, aka show me where they had a carry-job against a top team

Show me where a ball-dominator defeated maximum defensive attention while winning a title (carried scoring load for playoffs and Finals of title run, aka 10 ppg more than all teammates)... Only expert jumpshooters do that and occasionally centers (94' Hakeem, 00' Shaq, 03' Duncan).. The only exception is Wade in 2006, who started at off-guards

So ball-dominators can't carry the scoring load against top teams (too ball-dominant at carry-job volume) and they can't win organically because they impose spot-up roles that stall young players - Magic demanded to play with Kareem and Lebron formed super-teams.. The exception is Isiah (the exception that proves the rule)

Since ball-dominators can't win organically or carry the scoring load, they need more help to win (juggernauts at sidekick like Kareem or Wade instead of secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen or Terry).

[RRR3]

Let’s say hypothetically that I agreed with everything you ever said at the first time you said it. The 219th time you said it would be like 200 times past me wanting you to shut the **** up.

You could tell me Jason Kidd was a great passer. That’s fine. After you tell me 1500 times I want you to go away from me. When everything you say directly or indirectly, is trying to point out to me that he is a good passer? I just want you to be quiet.

Every single person on this, and every other forum on every subject across the entirety of the Internet, who is singularly obsessed with one subject is annoying. It could be LeBron James, or blueberries, or Beethoven. If all I hear from you is the same thing I don’t want to hear from you at all.

Little secret here. [B]I agreed with probably 90% of what you said for several years and I’m not entirely sure you don’t rank LeBron higher all time than I do.[\B] It’s really close either way. But you’re like the annoying holiday song playing Clock my girlfriend put in the living room. It only has like six songs and it plays one only hour every hour so I want to throw it in the ****ing fireplace. We compromised and I simply turn the volume way down. But I can’t turn your volume down without banning you and I generally don’t like to do that to anybody who was trying to talk basketball, even when they are unbelievably single minded, so here we are.
:facepalm

Literally most of what he says is made up or misrepresented and he ranks LeBron like 20th all time.

[Kblaze8855]

:facepalm

Literally most of what he says is made up or misrepresented and he ranks LeBron like 20th all time.

well, yes, he’s obviously gotten worse in what I think is an attempt to come up with new subjects because there’s nothing left to say. But there was a point when he was essentially right just arguing the point like a jack ass. He was saying 1+1 is two because sweet potato pie is better than pumpkin.

He had a correct point supported with unrelated bullshit. Now he just skips to the bullishit without the correct underlying point.

[RRR3]

well, yes, he’s obviously gotten worse in what I think is an attempt to come up with new subjects because there’s nothing left to say. But there was a point when he was essentially right just arguing the point like a jack ass. He was saying 1+1 is two because sweet potato pie is better than pumpkin.

He had a correct point supported with unrelated bullshit. Now he just skips to the bullishit without the correct underlying point.
So you think LeBron is worse at basketball than Dirk and not top 10? Cuz that’s the kind of shit he says. He said Giannis and Kawhi are ranked over LeBron ffs

[SouBeachTalents]

So you think LeBron is worse at basketball than Dirk and not top 10? Cuz that’s the kind of shit he says. He said Giannis and Kawhi are ranked over LeBron ffs
He had Kawhi top 5 at one point :oldlol: Kawhi.

[RRR3]

He had Kawhi top 5 at one point :oldlol: Kawhi.
“90% of what he says is right” doe :oldlol:

No wonder he never gets banned. Maybe he’s Blaze’s alt :confusedshrug:

[Kblaze8855]

I didn’t say what he says is right. I said at one time I agreed with a lot of his underlying points…and he went from having a correct point defended poorly…to just skipping the correct point.

The he idea that Jordan is better than Lebron isn’t odd or difficult to back up. He’s just bad at it from the perspective of anyone not already looking to latch onto anything anti Lebron. He makes a correct point so badly he looks like an idiot.

He makes bad arguments but had an accurate foundation.

But he’s been on some outlandish shit for years. I do acknowledge it’s possible he was crazy from the start and I just didn’t notice though.

[RRR3]

I didn’t say what he says is right. I said at one time I agreed with a lot of his underlying points…and he went from having a correct point defended poorly…to just skipping the correct point.

The he idea that Jordan is better than Lebron isn’t odd or difficult to back up. He’s just bad at it from the perspective of anyone not already looking to latch onto anything anti Lebron. He makes a correct point so badly he looks like an idiot.

He makes bad arguments but had an accurate foundation.

But he’s been on some outlandish shit for years. I do acknowledge it’s possible he was crazy from the start and I just didn’t notice though.
But he doesn’t just say MJ is better than LeBron. He says people who clearly aren’t like Kawhi are. Most people besides LeBron stans probably think MJ is GOAT, but no one thinks Kawhi and Dirk are better than LeBron.

[Phoenix]

I'm disappointed in the lot of you.

https://i.postimg.cc/44Y4VV6C/Y2-Mate-2.gif

[Phoenix]

sweet potato pie is better than pumpkin.



It hurts reading that because I can fukk up a Pumpkin pie, but this is 100% factual.

[3ba11]

But he doesn’t just say MJ is better than LeBron. He says people who clearly aren’t like Kawhi are. Most people besides LeBron stans probably think MJ is GOAT, but no one thinks Kawhi and Dirk are better than LeBron.

When I first discovered some of these inherent flaws of ball-dominators, I went too far and put everyone ahead of Lebron including guys like Kawhi and Dirk, who shouldn't be and are inferior to Lebron.

Yet their playing style was infact superior, so all I needed to do was take better versions of Dirk (Bird, Curry) or Kawhi (MJ, Kobe) and put them over Lebron.

aka the best expert jumpshooters (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird) are superior to the best ball-dominators (Magic, Lebron, Oscar) specifically because they need less help to win - they need less help to win because they can carry the scoring load in the Finals (sufficient brand at carry-job volume) and win organically (develop teammates, aka they don't impose spot-up roles that stall young players like ball-dominators do).

[Phoenix]

aka the best expert jumpshooters (MJ, Kobe, Curry, Bird) are superior to the best ball-dominators (Magic, Lebron, Oscar) specifically because they need less help to win - they need less help to win because they can carry the scoring load in the Finals (sufficient brand at carry-job volume) and win organically (develop teammates, aka they don't impose spot-up roles that stall young players like ball-dominators do).

It's interesting that you consider ball dominators inherently bad, but a player who outscores his 2nd option by double digits 'optimal'.

[RRR3]

It's interesting that you consider ball dominators inherently bad, but a player who outscores his 2nd option by double digits 'optimal'.
Also can’t speak for MJ and Bird but Kobe not being a ball dominator is hilarious.

[3ba11]

It's interesting that you consider ball dominators inherently bad, but a player who outscores his 2nd option by double digits 'optimal'.


I infact DON'T think it's optimal for a player to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry the scoring load), which is why it's goat-caliber when someone wins that way in such suboptimal conditions (no scoring help so all eyes on them)

And when an entire player-type shows they CAN'T do it, then they aren't goat-caliber or are below the player-types that can

[Phoenix]

I infact DON'T think it's optimal for a player to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry the scoring load), which is why it's goat-caliber when someone wins that way in such suboptimal conditions (no scoring help so all eyes on them)

And when an entire player-type shows they CAN'T do it, then they aren't goat-caliber or are below the player-types that can

Yet you often say the Bulls were winning titles with an optimal brand of ball in spite of the unbalanced scoring. Now you're saying that it's not optimal.

So tell me, what is more optimal in general? First option scored 28, 2nd option scores 22. Or, first option scores 32, 2nd option scores 18?

https://78.media.tumblr.com/8ca50ba9c75cee37b7755c531c4bbd2d/tumblr_o7v8oei9el1qgtanjo8_r1_250.gif

[3ba11]

Yet you often say the Bulls were winning titles with an optimal brand of ball in spite of the unbalanced scoring. Now you're saying that it's not optimal.

So tell me, what is more optimal in general? First option scored 28, 2nd option scores 22. Or, first option cores 32, 2nd option scores 18?

https://78.media.tumblr.com/8ca50ba9c75cee37b7755c531c4bbd2d/tumblr_o7v8oei9el1qgtanjo8_r1_250.gif


The great brand of ball was ball movement and spacing, which enabled winning with less supporting talent.

Otoh, lesser brands like ball-dominance require more supporting talent

Of course, the expert jumpshooting of MJ or Curry allows the superior brand that wins with less supporting talent

[Phoenix]

The great brand of ball was ball movement and spacing, which enabled winning with less supporting talent.

Otoh, lesser brands like ball-dominance require more supporting talent

Of course, the expert jumpshooting of MJ or Curry allows the superior brand that wins with less supporting talent

But it also led to, in the Bulls case, unbalanced scoring led by MJ's 'expert jumpshooting'. Not very 'superior brand' sounding by the looks of it.

[3ba11]

But it also led to, in the Bulls case, unbalanced scoring led by MJ's 'expert jumpshooting'. Not very 'superior brand' sounding by the looks of it.


Pippen's peak capability was 22 ppg and he achieved 21 alongside Jordan with more assists

Similarly, guys like Grant, BJ, Paxson and others also played to capacity and their proper role - no one was reduced to spot-up shooting role unless they were already a spot-up shooter (paxson or kerr).

With teammates playing to capacity, Jordan's scoring was necessary as we saw in the 93' Finals where a ridiculous 41 ppg was needed (the Bulls and Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg for the series).

And guys like BJ Armstrong, Longley or Paxson were only starters on the Bulls and otherwise were borderline NBA players.

Furthermore, none of the Bulls' bench players with the exception of Kukoc were ever starters - most good teams had starter-level players off-the-bench like Danny Ainge and Cliff Robinson in Portland.... Or Chambers, Ainge and Miller in Phoenix (1.8 blk for Miller), or AC Green and Elden Campbell in LA, or Nate McMillan and Sam Perkins in Seattle... Or Anthony Mason, Oakley, Vandeweghe and Greg Anthony in New York (Vinnie Johnson, James Edwards, Mahorn in Detroit).. Meanwhile, the Bulls had borderline NBA players off-the-bench... And we see Lebron with HOF's like Melo, Rondo, Dwight, and just absolute studs be his bench players.

It's interesting that you bring this up because we see that Lebron is infact is the guy that could've scored less, since his teammates played so far below capacity (below their career highs) alongside him (because he reduced them to spot-up role).

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen's peak capability was 22 ppg and he achieved 21 alongside Jordan with more assists

Similarly, guys like Grant, BJ, Paxson and others also played to capacity and their proper role - no one was reduced to spot-up shooting role unless they were already a spot-up shooter (paxson or kerr).

With teammates playing to capacity, Jordan's scoring was necessary as we saw in the 93' Finals where a ridiculous 41 ppg was needed (the Bulls and Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg for the series).

And guys like BJ Armstrong, Longley or Paxson were only starters on the Bulls and otherwise were borderline NBA players.

Furthermore, none of the Bulls' bench players with the exception of Kukoc were ever starters - most good teams had starter-level players off-the-bench like Danny Ainge and Cliff Robinson in Portland.... Or Chambers, Ainge and Miller in Phoenix (1.8 blk for Miller), or AC Green and Elden Campbell in LA, or Nate McMillan and Sam Perkins in Seattle... Or Anthony Mason, Oakley, Vandeweghe and Greg Anthony in New York (Vinnie Johnson, James Edwards, Mahorn in Detroit).. Meanwhile, the Bulls had borderline NBA players off-the-bench... And we see Lebron with HOF's like Melo, Rondo, Dwight, and just absolute studs be his bench players.

It's interesting that you bring this up because we see that Lebron is infact is the guy that could've scored less, since his teammates played so far below capacity (below their career highs) alongside him (because he reduced them to spot-up role).

BJ Armstrong was an all star in 94 :lol

This is what Kblaze is talking about. Somewhere within what you're saying you have a point, but you go to the extreme in order to justify it that you invalidate yourself.

[Phoenix]

Pippen's peak capability was 22 ppg and he achieved 21 alongside Jordan with more assists

Similarly, guys like Grant, BJ, Paxson and others also played to capacity and their proper role - no one was reduced to spot-up shooting role unless they were already a spot-up shooter (paxson or kerr).

With teammates playing to capacity, Jordan's scoring was necessary as we saw in the 93' Finals where a ridiculous 41 ppg was needed (the Bulls and Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg for the series).

And guys like BJ Armstrong, Longley or Paxson were only starters on the Bulls and otherwise were borderline NBA players.

Furthermore, none of the Bulls' bench players with the exception of Kukoc were ever starters - most good teams had starter-level players off-the-bench like Danny Ainge and Cliff Robinson in Portland.... Or Chambers, Ainge and Miller in Phoenix (1.8 blk for Miller), or AC Green and Elden Campbell in LA, or Nate McMillan and Sam Perkins in Seattle... Or Anthony Mason, Oakley, Vandeweghe and Greg Anthony in New York (Vinnie Johnson, James Edwards, Mahorn in Detroit).. Meanwhile, the Bulls had borderline NBA players off-the-bench... And we see Lebron with HOF's like Melo, Rondo, Dwight, and just absolute studs be his bench players.

It's interesting that you bring this up because we see that Lebron is infact is the guy that could've scored less, since his teammates played so far below capacity (below their career highs) alongside him (because he reduced them to spot-up role).

Alot of words to say the Bulls played an non-optimal brand of ball due to unbalanced scoring.

[RRR3]

BJ Armstrong was an all star in 94 :lol

This is what Kblaze is talking about. Somewhere within what you're saying you have a point, but you go to the extreme in order to justify it that you invalidate yourself.
Literally the only thing he has a point about is MJ being the GOAT but he’s somehow bad at arguing that. Every other claim he makes is completely moronic even ignoring the way he tries to argue them.

[3ba11]

Alot of words to say the Bulls played an non-optimal brand of ball due to unbalanced scoring.


Everyone played to capacity alongside MJ, aka the unbalanced scoring means that MJ was carrying the team just like anyone that carries the scoring load

that's what makes Curry, MJ, Kobe, Dirk and other expert jumpshooters so great - they were carrying their team to titles (defeating maximum defensive attention, aka carrying scoring load for playoffs and Finals of title run)

[Phoenix]

It's not even about whether he is or isn't GOAT. 3ball creates very specific arguing points for the express purpose of eliminating certain people from consideration, then acts like his criteria is objective fact when all of this shit is entirely subjective. If there's one thing he's very good at, it's manipulating conversations to center the argument around his personal criteria.

[Phoenix]

Everyone played to capacity alongside MJ, aka the unbalanced scoring means that MJ was carrying the team just like anyone that carries the scoring load

that's what makes Curry, MJ, Kobe, Dirk and other expert jumpshooters so great - they were carrying their team to titles (defeating maximum defensive attention, aka carrying scoring load for playoffs and Finals of title run)

No-one is arguing whether he carried the scoring load. I'm saying large scoring chasms isn't optimal and if I recall, so did you several posts back. An optimal brand of ball ideally should be more balanced scoring. If it's not, than it's not optimal. Fair?

[RRR3]

It's not even about whether he is or isn't GOAT. 3ball creates very specific arguing points for the express purpose of eliminating certain people from consideration, then acts like his criteria is objective fact when all of this shit is entirely subjective. If there's one thing he's very good at, it's manipulating conversations to center the argument around his personal criteria.
And his criteria has been exposed as nonsense countless times and then he moves the goalposts. He said LeBron could never win unless he had two all-stars and then when LeBron did he said it didn’t count because AD scored 2 more points in more minutes played. He said LeBron needed a dominant sidekick to win the finals but Wade played like crap most of the 13 playoffs and LeBron still won. Then he claims Wade was elite because he put up 20 PPG on horrid efficiency in the finals.

[Phoenix]

And his criteria has been exposed as nonsense countless times and then he moves the goalposts. He said LeBron could never win unless he had two all-stars and then when LeBron did he said it didn’t count because AD scored 2 more points in more minutes played. He said LeBron needed a dominant sidekick to win the finals but Wade played like crap most of the 13 playoffs and LeBron still won. Then he claims Wade was elite because he put up 20 PPG on horrid efficiency in the finals.

Meanwhile MJ is lauded for allowing his teammates to 'play to capacity', but AD playing as he did in 2020 is 'carrying' Lebron. If AD played like that next to MJ he would have been 'playing to capacity'.

[RRR3]

Meanwhile MJ is lauded for allowing his teammates to 'play to capacity', but AD playing as he did in 2020 is 'carrying' Lebron. If AD played like that next to MJ he would have been 'playing to capacity'.
AD has arguably played the best he’s ever played with LeBron when he’s actually completely healthy (2020 and this season). LeBron ball doe.

[SouBeachTalents]

Meanwhile MJ is lauded for allowing his teammates to 'play to capacity', but AD playing as he did in 2020 is 'carrying' Lebron. If AD played like that next to MJ he would have been 'playing to capacity'.
Ditto Kyrie in 2016/17, who hasn't come CLOSE to playing like that in the playoffs with either Boston or Brooklyn.

[RRR3]

Ditto Kyrie in 2016/17, who hasn't come CLOSE to playing like that in the playoffs with either Boston or Brooklyn.
Durant plays suboptimal ball

[Axe]

Lebron23 at least posts about other topics.
Agreed uncle.