1990 MVP race. Who really deserved it?

[1987_Lakers]

Probably the closest MVP voting ever. Magic won the MVP even though Barkley had more 1st place votes. MJ was at his peak and finished 3rd, but Magic, Barkley, & MJ were pretty much neck and neck in voting, what do you think?

I personally don't agree with voting for Barkley here. I know he had an amazing season and carried a bad team to 53 wins, but MJ to me was clearly the better player and his team won more games. Yes, his team had a bit more talent, but Pippen & Grant were not in their prime yet. What do you guys think?

[Yeezy]

I think you meant to post this under your lebron23 account steven

[1987_Lakers]

I'm sure maybe some media voted for Barkley for doing this to the hated Laimbeer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90-MMxiXI0Q

Bill Laimbeer was the center for the 80's Detroit Pistons. He made the All-star team 4 times, but never won the highly chased Kobe award.

[Yeezy]

literally all i see ITT rn


I think you meant to post this under your lebron23 account steven










https://media.tenor.com/pBGHpQU8aCcAAAAM/the-office-michael-scott.gif

[dankok8]

I probably would have gone Magic > Jordan > Barkley. MJ is a better player than Barkley and won more games so that one is obvious to me. And although MJ was better than Magic, the Lakers did win 63 games which is 8 more than the Bulls so I probably go with Magic as the winner. That is consistent with the voting criteria even if he had more talent on his team. A much better record is hard to overcome.

[1987_Lakers]

https://media.tenor.com/pBGHpQU8aCcAAAAM/the-office-michael-scott.gif


You when you coudn't find the thread where you had "proof" that I was a mod. :oldlol:

[Yeezy]

You when you coudn't find the thread where you have "proof" that I was a mod. :oldlol:

i need a mod to tell me when Kobe_Bryant was banned. i think when that happened i got so angry that his spirit was deprived from our forum that i spammed with my Kenneth Griffin account after going months without posting anything and got banned on purpose

[SATAN]

Jordan Clarkson.

[iamgine]

Jordan. Lets say they're all comparable on offense. MJ was clearly better on defense.

[John8204]

Nobody else has ever broken the 14 APG line...so in hindsight knowing Jordan had won the year before and Stockton was never winning MVP...I would have given it to John Stockton.

[AussieSteve]

To me it's pretty obvious that it was Barkley's award.

Putting aside our opinions on who 'deserved' to win it, it's clear that, at the time, more people thought it should be Barkley than Magic or MJ.

Barkley didn't just win the most 1st place votes, he won the most be a large margin. 38 to Magic's 27.

Barkely also won the Sporting News MVP that season, which was the most highly regarded non-official MVP award and generally aligned with the official one. Where it differs from the official MVP, it is usually the more sensible selection IMO.

It's documented that some west coast voters left both Barkley and MJ off their ballot to help ensure Magic won.

[AussieSteve]

To me it's pretty obvious that it was Barkley's award.

Putting aside our opinions on who 'deserved' to win it, it's clear that, at the time, more people thought it should be Barkley than Magic or MJ.

Barkley didn't just win the most 1st place votes, he won the most be a large margin. 38 to Magic's 27.

Barkely also won the Sporting News MVP that season, which was the most highly regarded non-official MVP award and generally aligned with the official one. Where it differs from the official MVP, it is usually the more sensible selection IMO.

It's documented that some west coast voters left both Barkley and MJ off their ballot to help ensure Magic won.

As an aside, this is the second of Magic's MVPs that should have rightfully gone to someone else IMO. The other being the previous year, which should have been Jordan's.

[Round Mound]

To me it's pretty obvious that it was Barkley's award.

Putting aside our opinions on who 'deserved' to win it, it's clear that, at the time, more people thought it should be Barkley than Magic or MJ.

Barkley didn't just win the most 1st place votes, he won the most be a large margin. 38 to Magic's 27.

Barkely also won the Sporting News MVP that season, which was the most highly regarded non-official MVP award and generally aligned with the official one. Where it differs from the official MVP, it is usually the more sensible selection IMO.

It's documented that some west coast voters left both Barkley and MJ off their ballot to help ensure Magic won.

:applause:

[3ba11]

Similar to Lebron, guys like Barkley needs all-star shooters like Hershey Hawkins or Majerle to have a good team

He wouldn't do shit with a lane-cloggers like Pippen that never hits big shots and can't create hos own shot in the halfcourt

Pippen actually said that Hakeem and Barkley couldn't win with him because he couldn't provide the shooting that they needed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s

[Phoenix]

Similar to Lebron, guys like Barkley needs all-star shooters like Hershey Hawkins or Majerle to have a good team

He wouldn't do shit with a lane-cloggers like Pippen that never hits big shots and can't create hos own shot in the halfcourt

Pippen actually said that Hakeem and Barkley couldn't win with him because he couldn't provide the shooting that they needed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s

Scottie must have dicked down your sister or something. To start a point about Barkley and segway that so effortless into Pippen is something to behold.

[3ba11]

Scottie must have dicked down your sister or something. To start a point about Barkley and segway that so effortless into Pippen is something to behold.


The historical record and trends all flow together

Specifically, aside from a couple centers (Duncan, Hakeem), all the guys that won with secondary producers at sidekick were expert jumpshooters because they can win with less, aka develop teammates (win organically) and carry the scoring load (sufficient brand at carry-job volume to beat top teams).

Otoh, the guys that needed elite producers at sidekick like Kareem, Wade, AD, Kobe, etc were ball-dominators or centers (weaker brands that are harder to win organically or carry scoring load).

So the top 10 should show expert jumpshooters> centers > ball-dominators.... based on who can win with the least

[Phoenix]

The historical record and trends all flow together

Specifically, aside from a couple centers (Duncan, Hakeem), all the guys that won with secondary producers at sidekick were expert jumpshooters because they can win with less, aka develop teammates (win organically) and carry the scoring load (sufficient brand at carry-job volume to beat top teams).

Otoh, the guys that needed elite producers at sidekick like Kareem, Wade, AD, Kobe, etc were ball-dominators or centers (weaker brands that are harder to win organically or carry scoring load).

So the top 10 should show expert jumpshooters> centers > ball-dominators.... based on who can win with the least

Which has what to do with my post? I said Scottie must have dicked down your sister with your odd obsession of bringing him into a post that started about Barkley. That wasn't an invitation for more copy/paste drivel.

[AussieSteve]

Similar to Lebron, guys like Barkley needs all-star shooters like Hershey Hawkins or Majerle to have a good team

He wouldn't do shit with a lane-cloggers like Pippen that never hits big shots and can't create hos own shot in the halfcourt

Pippen actually said that Hakeem and Barkley couldn't win with him because he couldn't provide the shooting that they needed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s

Such a dumb thing to say. Barkley was an inside player. Of course you compliment him with a shooter

Do you think Jordan wins championships if you swapped Pippen for Hawkins on the Bulls!?

[mr4speed]

To me it's pretty obvious that it was Barkley's award.

Putting aside our opinions on who 'deserved' to win it, it's clear that, at the time, more people thought it should be Barkley than Magic or MJ.

Barkley didn't just win the most 1st place votes, he won the most be a large margin. 38 to Magic's 27.

Barkely also won the Sporting News MVP that season, which was the most highly regarded non-official MVP award and generally aligned with the official one. Where it differs from the official MVP, it is usually the more sensible selection IMO.

It's documented that some west coast voters left both Barkley and MJ off their ballot to help ensure Magic won.

This is spot on!!! If you dig into the stats for each Magic led Barkley in assists per game and FT% and Barkley led Magic in virtually every other statistic listed.

[Round Mound]

Magic had a better cast than MJ
MJ had a better cast than Barkley
Barkley should have won MVP. End of story.

[Axe]

Guys like demar derozan and paul george would be locked in for league mvp in that watered-down decade.

[Chick Stern]

As an aside, this is the second of Magic's MVPs that should have rightfully gone to someone else IMO. The other being the previous year, which should have been Jordan's.

If your going with that take, then you must also take up that some of Bird’s MVPs should have gone to Magic

[1987_Lakers]

If your going with that take, then you must also take up that some of Bird’s MVPs should have gone to Magic

Not saying Magic didn't deserve the MVPs he won, but he has zero case for Bird's MVPs.

[Phoenix]

If your going with that take, then you must also take up that some of Bird’s MVPs should have gone to Magic

Bird was better than Magic until 87. Magic had no MVP case over him before that.

[Round Mound]

Bird was better than Magic until 87. Magic had no MVP case over him before that.

:applause:

[Full Court]

I'm pretty sure Yeezy is actually Steve, and he accuses everybody else of being Steve the mod to redirect suspicion from himself.

[Full Court]

I'm sure maybe some media voted for Barkley for doing this to the hated Laimbeer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90-MMxiXI0Q

Bill Laimbeer was the center for the 80's Detroit Pistons. He made the All-star team 4 times, but never won the highly chased Kobe award.

:lol My favorite NBA brawl of all tiem. Laimbeer uppercutted the MVP right out of Barkley.

[Round Mound]

:lol My favorite NBA brawl of all tiem. Laimbeer uppercutted the MVP right out of Barkley.

After that punch by Laimbeer Barkley took him down and was on top. Then the rest of the players separated both of them.

[3ba11]

.
1990 2nd Round

Jordan....... 43 and 7 APG... 55%
Barkely...... 23 and 5 APG... 53%.


Jordan was the MVP every year from 87-98' except the baseball years

[Round Mound]

.
1990 2nd Round

Jordan....... 43 and 7 APG... 55%
Barkely...... 23 and 5 APG... 53%.


Jordan was the MVP every year from 87-98' except the baseball years

Jordan was the better player but also had a better cast. So MVP goes to Barkley.

[3ba11]

Jordan was the better player but also had a better cast. So MVP goes to Barkley.


Team Defense

1990 Bulls....... 19th
1990 Sixers..... 16th


The stats show that Hawkins was easily superior to Pippen offensively, while the Sixers had better team defense and a much better cast after Hawkins - Gminski was a 16/9 player from 86-90' that was easily superior to 1990 Horace, while Dawkins, Ron Anderson or Derek Smith destroys Paxson.. Mahorn compares to Grant.

Jordna's garbage cast is why he needed to average 43 in that series and 36 ppg for those playoffs

no one else had that burden.. .

ultimately, only jordan had to grow single-digit rookies into viable players, while everyone else was gifted a ready-made star or team - 93' Barkley was gifted a perennial WCF participant - he didn't have to build anything from scratch like Jordan.. This is partly because of Barkley's skillset, which needs elite shooting around him to have a good team - Pippen explained that he couldn't provide the shooting needed for a post-centric offense and that's why he didn't fit with Barkley and Hakeem in 99' (here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s)).. So Jordan could win with less than Barkely

[Round Mound]

Team Defense

1990 Bulls....... 19th
1990 Sixers..... 16th


The stats show that Hawkins was easily superior to Pippen offensively, while the Sixers had better team defense and a much better cast after Hawkins - Gminski was a 16/9 player from 86-90' that was easily superior to 1990 Horace, while Dawkins, Ron Anderson or Derek Smith destroys Paxson.. Mahorn compares to Grant.

Jordna's garbage cast is why he needed to average 43 in that series and 36 ppg for those playoffs

no one else had that burden.. .

ultimately, only jordan had to grow single-digit rookies into viable players, while everyone else was gifted a ready-made star or team - 93' Barkley was gifted a perennial WCF participant - he didn't have to build anything from scratch like Jordan.. This is partly because of Barkley's skillset, which needs elite shooting around him to have a good team - Pippen explained that he couldn't provide the shooting needed for a post-centric offense and that's why he didn't fit with Barkley and Hakeem in 99'.. So Jordan could win with less than Barkely

The one who rebuilt the process was Phil Jackson when he gave Pippen the point-forward spot. That's when the Bulls began to win when Pippen reached all star level. Jordan is the best but you act like had few help compared to other players. Which is not true. We saw Pippen as the best player in 93-94 with just 2 wins less than the prior year without MJ.

[Phoenix]

Jordna's garbage cast is why he needed to average 43 in that series and 36 ppg for those playoffs



Sub-optimal.

[3ba11]

The one who rebuilt the process was Phil Jackson when he gave Pippen the point-forward spot. That's when the Bulls began to win when Pippen reached all star level. Jordan is the best but you act like had few help compared to other players. Which is not true. We saw Pippen as the best player in 93-94 with just 2 wins less than the prior year without MJ.


Pippen had the worst passing among notable 90's sidekicks (Stockton, Payton, Tim Hardaway, Penny, KJ) - this decade-worst passing among 90's sidekicks required MJ to lead the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen (including 3 title runs).

And let's say Jordan didn't exist and Pippen was drafted to the 88' Bulls - could Pippen grow a lottery roster like 2005 Lebron or 1988 Jordan?

Obviously not - he isn't THAT GUY - he isn't that caliber

He can only win 55 with a fully-grown dynasty, which was an expected fluke as the playoffs and following season showed - Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty in less than 18 months (borderline lottery before MJ returned in 95')

Btw, people don't realize how much the 94' Playoffs exposed him as not THAT GUY - he had the worst clutch performance literally ever, including 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of the 2nd Round against Ewing - he was literally not available down the stretch and had several historic chokes (the "sit out" game... the "dumb foul" game... horrific game 7... 3 on 20% in the fourth)

and again, PIPPEN SAID HIMSELF that he couldn't provide the shooting needed for a post-centric offense and that's why he didn't fit with Barkley and Hakeem in 99' (14 on 40%).. So Jordan could win with less than Barkley because Barkley doesn't fit with Pippen (needs elite-shooting all-stars like Majerle or Hawkins).. Here's Pippen explaining to Rachel Nichols how he lacks the skills to fit or win with Barkley and Hakeem (here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s))

[Phoenix]

Pippen had the worst passing among notable 90's sidekicks (Stockton, Payton, Tim Hardaway, Penny, KJ) - this decade-worst passing among 90's sidekicks required MJ to lead the Bulls in assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs alongside Pippen (including 3 title runs).



Why do you compare his passing compared to elite PGs of the day and not eg. Hersey Hawkins, since you raised his name earlier? How many small forwards in the history of the league have passing skills on par or better than all-star PGs?

Don't take my question as an attempt to genuinely engage,there's a level of amusement in seeing how deep your bag of bullshit goes. And I seem to recall you conceding that Pippen's assists during the title run( 5-7) fell in line with many other assist leaders on championship teams since 1990, so this is low effort copy/paste drivel parroting shit you already admitted isn't out of the norm for most championship teams.

[3ba11]

Why do you compare his passing compared to elite PGs of the day and not eg. Hersey Hawkins, since you raised his name earlier? How many small forwards in the history of the league have passing skills on par or better than all-star PGs?

Don't take my question as an attempt to genuinely engage,there's a level of amusement in seeing how deep your bag of bullshit goes. And I seem to recall you conceding that Pippen's assists during the title run( 5-7) fell in line with many other assist leaders on championship teams since 1990, so this is low effort copy/paste drivel parroting shit you already admitted isn't out of the norm for most championship teams.


You guys make excuses for Pippen's low peak scoring ability (system player), efficiency and clutch by saying:

"well, scoring isn't everything - Pippen helped Jordan with passing and defense"

The problem is that everyone had more passing help than Jordan because Pippen was the worst passer among notable 90's sidekicks, while also not providing superior team defense - nearly all of the Bulls' opponents in the ECF and Finals had better-ranked defenses (91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Knicks)

So you guys are lying about Pippen but fortunately, the historical record tells the true story - the FACTS and HISTORICAL RECORD shows that among notable 90's sidekicks, Pippen had the worst passing, efficiency, clutch, spacing and lowest peak capability (not on scouting report), which made MJ defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) for every season and series of his entire career (unique to Jordan).

[Phoenix]

You guys make excuses for Pippen's low peak scoring ability (system player), efficiency and clutch by saying:

"well, scoring isn't everything - Pippen helped Jordan with passing and defense"

The problem is that everyone had more passing help than Jordan because Pippen was the worst passer among notable 90's sidekicks, while also not providing superior team defense - nearly all of the Bulls' opponents in the ECF and Finals had better-ranked defenses (91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Knicks)

So you guys are lying about Pippen but fortunately, the historical record tells the true story - the FACTS and HISTORICAL RECORD shows that among notable 90's sidekicks, Pippen had the worst passing, efficiency, clutch, spacing and lowest peak capability (not on scouting report), which made MJ defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) for every season and series of his entire career (unique to Jordan).

The historical record shows that

1) Pippens passing stats( 5-7 apg) were on par with other championship team facilitators since 1990

2) you conceded that point

3) I asked you to compare his passing against someone like Hersey Hawkins. You instead say 'bu bu Pippen was a worse passer than John Stockton, as if Stockton isnt one of the top passers in the history of the league with one of the most unbreakable records in the NBA( all time assists)

4) you're a fakkit

[3ba11]

The historical record shows that

1) Pippens passing stats( 5-7 apg) were on par with other championship team facilitators since 1990

2) you conceded that point





Chronological historical record:


- I've always said that high APG was bad and not important (too much ball-domination)

- You guys disagreed and praised high-assist players like Luka, Lebron and Westbrook

- I point out that Pippen's assists weren't that good

- You guys say assists aren't important for rings and pippen's low assists are fine

- I agree and say that's why Pippen's 5-7 apg means nothing (like I said at the beginning), so now we're back to talking about his scoring, aka his decade-worst efficiency, spacing, clutch and peak capability (not on scouting report) among notable 90's sidekicks

[Hey Yo]

If Pippen couldn't pass and sucked on offense, then why was he making All-NBA for practically the entire 90's?

[Round Mound]

If Pippen couldn't pass and sucked on offense, then why was he making All-NBA for practically the entire 90's?

:lol

[Phoenix]

Chronological historical record:


- I've always said that high APG was bad and not important (too much ball-domination)

- You guys disagreed and praised high-assist players like Luka, Lebron and Westbrook

- I point out that Pippen's assists weren't that good

- You guys say assists aren't important for rings and pippen's low assists are fine

- I agree and say that's why Pippen's 5-7 apg means nothing (like I said at the beginning), so now we're back to talking about his scoring, aka his decade-worst efficiency, spacing, clutch and peak capability (not on scouting report) among notable 90's sidekicks

Dont spin it. I don't praise any of those players for 'high assist passing' including my avatar. In fact I'm already on record as saying Luka needs to get better at off-ball, though he continues to expand on a lethal post-game, but he also needs to be complemented with a facilitator that's good enough to justify not having him do everything.

'Pippens assists werent that good' by what measure? By John Stocktons standards? Well no shit. Good by the standards of the majority of championship facilitators since 1990? More than on par and in many cases higher. By the standards of other small forwards? Who was averaging that many assists at the small forward spot in the 90s other than Grant Hill? By the standards of other non-elite PGs? Higher than most.

[3ba11]

If Pippen couldn't pass and sucked on offense, then why was he making All-NBA for practically the entire 90's?


the proper way to perceive MJ and Pippen is that MJ was simply good enough to win with Pippen's decade-worst passing and efficiency among 90's sidekicks - the resulting winning spotlight is why Pippen started making All-NBA in 1992 (5th season).. Compare this trajectory to 4th-year Jamal Murray from the 2020 Playoffs - Jokic wasn't good enough to win with Murray's 27/5/7 on 63% true shooting (better than Pippen ever played), so Murray wasn't elevated to media accolade thereafter like Pippen.. This is just a simple example but it applies to anyone that fails to win with Iggy-caliber help from the sidekick.

[3ba11]

Luka also needs to be complemented with a facilitator that's good enough to justify not having him do everything.





Brunson was an good passer and so was Kyrie, Wade or Westbrook - all these guys average more assists than Pippen

So Lebron and Luka have good passing teammates but it's a skillset issue - their weak fit with other ball-handlers forces a weak strategy of your-turn-my-turn, thus requiring them to "still do everything" on possessions where it's their turn.. essentially, there's no synergy between 2 guys that are ball-dominators due to their skill deficit (not elite on-ball AND off-ball).






'Pippens assists werent that good'

by what standard





less career APG than Kyrie, Wade, Westbrook, and any notable 90's sidekick - so Jordan had less passing help than anyone he's compared to except Kobe






By John Stocktons standards? Well no shit.





And Payton, Tim Hardaway or KJ

The best passers and rebounders of the 90's were 20/10 guys, or 17/15 in Stockton's case - Pippen was one of the few 90's sidekicks that wasn't a 20/10 guy






Most good passeGood by the standards of the majority of championship facilitators since 1990? More than on par and in many cases higher. By the standards of other small forwards? Who was averaging that many assists at the small forward sot in the 90s other than Grant Hill? By the standards of other non-elite PGs? Higher than most.





Again, this has simply confirmed that "passing help" is overrated

which is what i said the whole time

so let's focus on the kind of help that everyone in history needed the most of - scoring - among notable 90's sidekicks, pippen had the worst peak capability (not on scouting report), efficiency, clutch and spacing - this is documented fact..

Everyone in history needed a ton of scoring help EXCEPT the goat

[Axe]

1-9

[Hey Yo]

the proper way to perceive MJ and Pippen is that MJ was simply good enough to win with Pippen's decade-worst passing and efficiency among 90's sidekicks - the resulting winning spotlight is why Pippen started making All-NBA in 1992 (5th season).. Compare this trajectory to 4th-year Jamal Murray from the 2020 Playoffs - Jokic wasn't good enough to win with Murray's 27/5/7 on 63% true shooting (better than Pippen ever played), so Murray wasn't elevated to media accolade thereafter like Pippen.. This is just a simple example but it applies to anyone that fails to win with Iggy-caliber help from the sidekick.
So voters knew Pippen sucked on offense and made it harder for Bulls team success, so they decided to reward him by naming him All-NBA 7x from 92-98?

[Phoenix]

Brunson was an good passer and so was Kyrie, Wade or Westbrook - all these guys average more assists than Pippen

Jaylen Brunson is a career 4.0apg, this season he's averaging 6.4. Worse career and peak assist numbers than Pippen.

You criticize Westbrook as a ballhog so I'm not sure why you would consider his higher passing numbers as being a positive. What championships has those numbers contributed to?

Dwyane Wade's career 5.4apg and peak of 7.5 to Pippen's 5.2 career and 7 peak in 92. Whoopty-fukking do.

Kyrie has a career mark of 5.7 assists with a peak of 6.9, lower than Pippen's 7 in 92.

TLDR; his assist numbers are better than Brunsons, on par with Wade and Kyrie, and LOL at touting Westbrook's numbers in the context of this conversation.



So Lebron and Luka have good passing teammates but it's a skillset issue - their weak fit with other ball-handlers forces a weak strategy of your-turn-my-turn, thus requiring them to "still do everything" on possessions where it's their turn.. essentially, there's no synergy between 2 guys that are ball-dominators due to their skill deficit (not elite on-ball AND off-ball).

That 'weak' fit got them to the conference finals against an established dynasty level team with superior acorss the board talent, while Luka had a 'near all-star' level Brunson and role players. Give him a defender in Dray, a rising star in Poole and an off-ball assist target in Klay and tell me that team isn't contending for chips.




less career APG than Kyrie, Wade, Westbrook, and any notable 90's sidekick - so Jordan had less passing help than anyone he's compared to except Kobe

Debunked above.




And Payton, Tim Hardaway or KJ

So as I said, you're comparing his assists from the small forward spot in an assist deflating system to elite, all_NBA point guards. Thanks for making my point.

The best passers and rebounders of the 90's were 20/10 guys, or 17/15 in Stockton's case - Pippen was one of the few 90's sidekicks that wasn't a 20/10 guy

He wouldn't average 10 assists for a season in the triangle( nobody would, that's the point) and why would he be producing double digit rebounds when you have Grant and Rodman there for that role?





Again, this has simply confirmed that "passing help" is overrated

which is what i said the whole time

no it isn't



Bolded.

[3ba11]

So voters knew Pippen sucked on offense and made it harder for Bulls team success, so they decided to reward him by naming him All-NBA 7x from 92-98?


If Pippen never won and had zero rings from 91-98', he would barely make 1 or 2 All-NBA because he wasn't a 1st option

It's similar to Andrew Wiggins not making an all-star team before Curry was good enough to win with his secondary production... If the Warriors were dominating again this year and looking like they were going to repeat like the 92 Bulls, then Wiggins would be headed to his first All-NBA just like Pippen.

The media is swayed by the winning spotlight - they're forced into this results-oriented approach because they don't actually know what they're talking about.. That's why we see guys with Iggy-caliber performance ranked top 30 all-time

[Round Mound]

You can't compare assists of today's game with the past. Now many assists if not most come from drive and find the open 3-point shooter. Back then assits where created within a more clogged court or with less space. People should watch Pippen's great timing to pass skills in his highlights. He was a brilliant passer, good rebounder, great dunker in the open court, a solid scorer (not a great shooter but in today's game he would probably be a better shooter) and THE GREATEST DENSIVE SF.

[3ba11]

Bolded.


Westbrook, Kyrie, and Wade average more career APG than Pippen despite Lebron's downward impact on their APG, while Jordan's assist-target style (off-ball) increased Pippen's assists.

The bottom line is that based on career APG, Jordan had less passing help than anyone he's compared (90's first options or Lebron) - only Kobe had less passing help, which is further evidence that Jordan didn't need Pippen's passing.

And if you don't like Westbrook, then how about Rondo - so Lebron had far more passing help than Jordan.

Btw, the 4th year Luka had a quick peak just like 4th-year Lebron and I warned last year that Luka's team would suck this year just like 5th year Lebron (2008) - I said that it was a 1-hit wonder fluke and that his brand of ball can't develop anything - it will need super-team help to win - therefore, I've been right all along so far on Luka, just like I was on Lebron.

And again, everything else you said just shows that passing help isn't important - everyone generally has enough - 5 apg is more than enough and more than Kobe had (kobe had no passing help)... So scoring help is what everyone in history needed a ton of and that's why I always harped on it - scoring help was super-important to everyone in history except MJ

[Phoenix]

Westbrook, Kyrie, and Wade average more career APG than Pippen despite Lebron's downward impact on their APG, while Jordan's assist-target style (off-ball) increased Pippen's assists.

The assist difference between Pippen's numbers and Wade/Kyrie is so small its practically insignificant. And we haven't hit the point in Kyrie's career where his numbers will go down as he ages. If Jordan's assist target style increased Pippen's assists, why didn't it do the same for the other guards and ball-handlers on those Bulls teams? Westbrook is a ball-dominator whose stats haven't cotributed to a championship team in 15 years.

The bottom line is that based on career APG, Jordan had less passing help than anyone he's compared (90's first options or Lebron) - only Kobe had less passing help, which is further evidence that Jordan didn't need Pippen's passing.

And if you don't like Westbrook, then how about Rondo - so Lebron had far more passing help than Jordan.

Again comparing Pippen to an elite ( passing) PG. You're cherrypicking high assist POINT GUARDS. Is high assists important or not within the context of winning titles? Need that list again of assist leaders on championship teams? More teams have won titles with Pippen's assist numbers than Rondo.

Btw, the 4th year Luka had a quick peak just like 4th-year Lebron and I warned last year that Luka's team would suck this year just like 5th year Lebron (2008) - I said that it was a 1-hit wonder fluke and that his brand of ball can't develop anything - it will need super-team help to win - therefore, I've been right all along so far on Luka, just like I was on Lebron.

Jordan hadn't won jackshit 4 years in, so we don't know what's ahead for Luka. Getting a player as good as 91 Pippen was would be a start.

And again, everything else you said just shows that passing help isn't important - everyone generally has enough - 5 apg is more than enough and more than Kobe had (kobe had no passing help)... So scoring help is what everyone in history needed a ton of and that's why I always harped on it - scoring help was super-important to everyone in history except MJ

In actually wasn't in the case of the Bulls because the league had gone from a 3 star format in the 80s( where the dominant championship teams had 3 capable 20+ PPG scorers) to a 2 star format, meaning if you had a dominant 30ppg guy in MJ you didn't need Scottie scoring more than 20ppg because the 2nd options on teams they beat in the finals weren't scoring that much. You keep acting like Chicago in the 90s was facing teams with multiple 20ppg threats. Guys like Starks and Price weren't outscoring him when they played. In fact when the Bulls played the Cavs in 92 and 93, Pippen as 2nd option outscored Price AND Daugherty Hawkins? Nope. Pippen outscored Worthy in 91, Porter in 92, KJ/THunder Dan in 93, and you may not want to look at the 2nd scorer on Utahs PPG behind Malone in 97 and 98.

It's been proven on this site that Scottie scored more than a number of opposing sidekicks in the playoffs and finals. If I had known I would have had to retort that point repeatedly, I would have copied your methodology and kept copy/paste files on my PC to debunk every already-debunked lie you make about his scoring relative to other 90's 2nd options.



Bolded.

[Hey Yo]

If Pippen never won and had zero rings from 91-98', he would barely make 1 or 2 All-NBA because he wasn't a 1st option

It's similar to Andrew Wiggins not making an all-star team before Curry was good enough to win with his secondary production... If the Warriors were dominating again this year and looking like they were going to repeat like the 92 Bulls, then Wiggins would be headed to his first All-NBA just like Pippen.

The media is swayed by the winning spotlight - they're forced into this results-oriented approach because they don't actually know what they're talking about.. That's why we see guys with Iggy-caliber performance ranked top 30 all-time

So why didn't Bill Cartwright, BJ Armstrong or say Ron Harper ever get rewarded with All-NBA selections through team success, while being detrimental to the offense like Pippen allegedly was?

[Phoenix]

So why didn't Bill Cartwright, BJ Armstrong or say Ron Harper ever get rewarded with All-NBA selections through team success, while being detrimental to the offense like Pippen allegedly was?

I've asked that question before. 3nutball likes bringing up the 'winning spotlight' drivel but somehow that only benefitted Pippen. We don't see BJ Armstrong or Horace Grant with 4-5 all-NBA teams on their resume.

[3ba11]

.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html).... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)'............ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html).... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)'............ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts




So why didn't Bill Cartwright, BJ Armstrong or say Ron Harper ever get rewarded with All-NBA selections through team success, while being detrimental to the offense like Pippen allegedly was?


They weren't 2nd options - 2nd options that win a lot of rings like Pippen or Klay get overrated by the winning spotlight, despite playing far below Hornacek (above)

Pippen is the same way - he played at an Iggy-caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to top 30 all-time

[Phoenix]

Pippen is the same way - he played at an Iggy-caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to top 30 all-time

Iggy has 4 rings, why isn't he considered a top 30 player?

[Hey Yo]

If you suck on offense and completely detrimental to the offense, what the hell difference does it make what option you're considered?

How can Pippen be 2nd option as their alleged worst offensive player?

Why was he even on the team?

[3ba11]

Bolded.


You're splitting hairs on how much Kyrie, Wade and Rondo lead Pippen in APG when the point is that Jordan had average passing help AT BEST versus anyone that he's compared to like other champions, other 90's first options or other stars like Lebron.

Btw, only 1 or 2 guys can average 5+ assists on a team, so that's going to be Jordan and Pippen.. But Jordan's assist-target style increased nearly everyone's APG, which yielded good team APG rankings despite still having the GOAT scorer and iso player.

And again, we agree that every team has a non-descript passer like Kobe, Vernon Maxwell or Pippen to get 5 apg... So everyone has enough passing help because passing help isn't the big help that everyone needs to win titles - it's scoring help - scoring help is the big star help that everyone needs, and MJ needed the least of it by far.. Kareem, Magic and Lebron had 8+ teammates be all-stars alongside them (each), while MJ only had 1, yet he still never lost as the favorite, in the championship or with a top seed (1 or 2).

Btw, you can't cry about Luka not having a 91' Pippen when he had numerous guys that were better than 90' Pippen but got rid of them due to bad fits and inability to develop them, aka bad fits aren't an excuse - they're an indictment on a skillset that has holes and therefore bad fits with various all-stars like Porzingas and Ingram.. History shows that ball-dominators impose spot-up roles that stall young players, so they lack the teammate development, fits or brand to win organically and must resort to talent-based winning (team-hopper.. all-star team strategy).

Finally, you said:


"switched to a 2 star format, meaning if you had a dominant 30ppg guy in MJ you didn't need Scottie scoring more than 20ppg because the 2nd options on teams they beat in the finals weren't scoring that much

You're blatantly lying a bunch here.. Only the Bulls had a guy averaging 30... this idea that there's a bunch of guys in each decade averaging 30 is ridiculously false - there was only 1 guy doing that in history.. Jordan averaged far more than everyone in history - you don't seem to realize that...

Secondly, you said that 90's sidekicks didn't need to average more than 20, which is false.. We know that Jordan's onslaught from the backcourt caused abnormal underperformance from the otherwise dominant Porter, while KJ/Worthy were hurt (although Majerle had higher gamescore)..

So the small sample size of facing Jordan in the Finals notwithstanding, every 90's sidekick was infact a 1b with dominant production in big series, so they were on scouting reports and commanded defensive attention...Otoh, Pippen's low "system" capability wasn't on scouting reports (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif) and forced MJ to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).. Among the top 150 players all-time, Pippen has the worst clutch and among the worst efficiency and spacing

Otoh we've listed the sidekick performances many times... Terry Porter carried the Blazers to the 90' and 92' Finals, including 53% on threes (6 attempts) in the 92' WCF (26/4/8)... That's the worst sidekick that MJ faced in the Finals, so that shows the high level of comp... Meanwhile, KJ destroyed Magic to make the 90' WCF or averaged 28/9 twice against the 94' and 95' Rockets (7 game series) - the only reason that KJ lost to Hakeem is because Barkley wet the bed both times, so MJ obviously would've won the title with KJ on those Suns teams.. Meanwhile, Stockton carried the Jazz to the 97' Finals with the historic walk-off in Barkley's face to win the series (22/11), while Payton/Kemp or Shaq/Penny took turns averaging elite stats (Penny averaged 26 in the 95' Finals and 96' ECF... on Pippen)... Again, Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that couldn't dominate or achieve elite production, so all eyes were on MJ and he had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).

[Phoenix]

Btw, you can't cry about Luka not having a 91' Pippen when he had numerous guys that were better than 90' Pippen but got rid of them due to bad fits and inability to develop them, aka bad fits aren't an excuse - they're an indictment on a skillset that has holes and therefore bad fits with various all-stars like Porzingas and Ingram.. History shows that ball-dominators impose spot-up roles that stall young players, so they lack the teammate development, fits or brand to win organically and must resort to talent-based winning (team-hopper.. all-star team strategy).

what does him having guys better than 90 Pippen have to do with him not having anyone as good as 91 Pippen? Pippen was a better, more mature player in 91 whose skillsets and mentality blended well with MJ. Porzingis wasn't better than 91 Pippen, when he was playing with Luka or after leaving Dallas, ditto for Brunson and if you think otherwise, it merely reinforces that you have an elementary understanding of the game strictly rooted in PPG.

Finally, you said:


"switched to a 2 star format, meaning if you had a dominant 30ppg guy in MJ you didn't need Scottie scoring more than 20ppg because the 2nd options on teams they beat in the finals weren't scoring that much

You're blatantly lying a bunch here.. Only the Bulls had a guy averaging 30... this idea that there's a bunch of guys in each decade averaging 30 is ridiculously false - there was only 1 guy doing that in history.. Jordan averaged far more than everyone in history - you don't seem to realize that...

You blatantly didn't comprehend what I said, or just being deliberately obtuse and stupid. Where in the fukk do you see me saying or even implying that 'there's a bunch of guys averaging 30'?! I said the Bulls having a dominant 30ppg guy in MJ gave them an inherit edge on their 90s competition because the 90s didn't feature contenders with three 20ppg guys ( and deep benches) like you saw in the 80s. If Jordan is the only guy averaging 30, that means its the OPPOSING teams that need more scoring help to counter MJ when paired with Pippen who, at least in the first 3peat, was averaging 20-22PPG in the finals. It's Drexler who needed a guy who could drop 25 plus in the 92 finals and no, what Jordan did to Drexler had no bearing on Porter. It's Barkley that needed 25ppg from a 2nd option in the 93 finals. It's the Lakers that needed ANYONE to score over 20ppg in the 91 finals. It's the Jazz who needed a 2nd 20ppg guy in 97 and 98.

So the argument you make that 'MJ needed more scoring help' in the 90's when winning titles is faulty logic outside a few specific examples, with MJ being the only 30ppg scorer and best player (which nobody is arguing otherwise), it's his competition that needed better scoring first options to COUNTER MJ first and foremost. If MJ is dropping 30-35 in the typical series and the first option is dropping say, 25ppg, the opposing team is already running at a 5-10ppg deficit. MJ is going to get his no matter what. Pippen scoring MORE during the Bulls run would have just led to easier chips. Since when has 'winning titles easier' helped anyones GOAT case? Case in point, in game 6 1998 MJ certainly carried the scoring with Pippen hobbled by injury, but the Jazz could have mitigated that by Malone not being outscored 45-31, or the 2nd Jazz scorer scoring more than 17( Hornacek). So again, WHEN THE BULLS HAVE A SCORER THAT NOBODY CAN MATCH, IT"S THE OPPOSING TEAM THAT NEEDS SCORING HELP TO COUNTER IT. The 96 Magic with Shaq and Penny averaging 27/26 were the only time the 90's Bulls faced two 25ppg guys in a playoff series to my memory. If there are other examples of that you will no doubt provide them.

Jordan and Pippen isn't enough scoring to beat Magic/Worthy/Kareem/Scott or Bird/Parish/Mchale/ in the 80s, but it is enough to beat Ewing/Starks, Price/Daughterty,Drexler/Porter, Payton/Kemp, Malone/Stockton because the listed first options there weren't outscoring MJ and the 2nd options weren't outscoring Pippen in their playoff encounters. THe only finals they likely lose if MJ doesn't go completely batshit on offense is the 93 finals and even then Pippen outscored both KJ and Majerle.

Secondly, you said that 90's sidekicks didn't need to average more than 20, which is false.. We know that Jordan's onslaught from the backcourt caused abnormal underperformance from the otherwise dominant Porter, while KJ/Worthy were hurt (although Majerle had higher gamescore)..

There's nothing false about it. There isn't a single 2nd option in any of the Bulls finals that averaged over 20ppg. Noone on the 91 Lakers scored 20ppg. You say Worthy was hurt in 91 but ignore that Pippen outscored Magic. And guys like Starks, Price and Daugherty as notable eastern rivals didn't outscore Pippen. Jordan's 'onslaiught' from the backcourt neutralized DREXLER as his head to head match-up, not Porter. BTW, Pippen almost had the same GmSc in that finals as Drexler(18.4 to 18.1) who was 2nd in MVP voting.

Majerle had higher GmSc but he was outscored by Pippen 21-17, got torched by MJ and didn't provide the defense/playmaking that Pippen did. The 3 best players in the 93 finals were in this order: MJ, Barkley, Pippen. The ONLY time a 2nd option outscored Pippen in the finals was 96 when Payton scored 18 to Pippen's 16. That's the historical record. So why would the Bulls in these cases need MORE scoring help if Jordan is outscoring the first option and Pippen is outscoring the 2nd option in their finals encounters?

So the small sample size of facing Jordan in the Finals notwithstanding, every 90's sidekick was infact a 1b with dominant production in big series,

I'm going to need to see the receipts on that claim. WHich 90's sidekicks THAT THE BULLS PLAYED IN THE PLAYOFFS provided dominant production? Penny dropped 26ppg in 96. You like dropping numbers so I expect you'll have examples of 2nd options scoring at that level when the Bulls met them in the playoffs.

so they were on scouting reports and commanded defensive attention...Otoh, Pippen's low "system" capability wasn't on scouting reports (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif) and forced MJ to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).. Among the top 150 players all-time, Pippen has the worst clutch and among the worst efficiency and spacing

Otoh we've listed the sidekick performances many times...

I have, and if this board wasn't so shit with letting you bring up post history I would just copy-paste the list I dropped months ago that showed that Pippen outscored with higher GmSc THE MAJORITY of 2nd options the Bulls played in the playoffs from 1990-1998 .




Bolded

[Phoenix]

Iggy has 4 rings, why isn't he considered a top 30 player?

3nutball?

[3ba11]

0Where in the fukk do you see me saying or even implying that 'there's a bunch of guys averaging 30'?!

I said the Bulls having a dominant 30ppg guy in MJ gave them an inherit edge on their 90s competition because the 90s didn't feature contenders with three 20ppg guys (and deep benches) like you saw in the 80s. If Jordan is the only guy averaging 30, that means its the OPPOSING teams that need more scoring help to counter MJ when paired with Pippen who, at least in the first 3peat, was averaging 20-22PPG in the finals. It's Drexler who needed a guy who could drop 25 plus in the 92 finals and no, what Jordan did to Drexler had no bearing on Porter. It's Barkley that needed 25ppg from a 2nd option in the 93 finals. It's the Lakers that needed ANYONE to score over 20ppg in the 91 finals. It's the Jazz who needed a 2nd 20ppg guy in 97 and 98.





So you're saying that Magic, Barkley, Malone and Kemp needed more scoring help to beat MJ

The problem is that their casts always outscored the Bulls' cast in every single Finals and series of Jordan's career, except his first series against the 85' Bucks.

So literally every team had more scoring help, aka you're caught in another lie.

The reality is that every contender in the league had starters coming off the bench, while several of the Bulls' starters were exclusively bench players on other teams (BJ, Paxson, Longley) and the bench itself was barely NBA-caliber outside of Kukoc.

Otoh, guys like Drazen Petrovic, Ainge and Cliff Robinson came off the Blazers' bench (who also had 3 guys average 20 in the 90' Playoffs).. Guys like Mason, Oakley, Derek Harper and many more came off NY's bench.. Or the 95' Sonics' had 3 All-NBA players that averaged 19+, while McMillan came off their bench (would easily start for Bulls).

the bulls simply had a THIN TEAM talent-wise, which is why Jordan had to average 41 against the Suns or 5 more than anyone in playoff history (that's 5 more than all the best scorers in history, aka Durant, Kobe, Lebron) with lower turnovers and better efficiency per possession (ortg).








bolded





Jordan locked down Porter in the 92' Finals, which is documented on youtube but I can't find the video right now - it was on the channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" and it's been posted on this site before but I can't find it for some reason.. Jordan wasn't the primary defender on Porter like he was other PG's like Payton, Isiah or Strickland, but he guarded him throughout the series as SG's frequently defend both guard positions.. Jordan's 2-way onslaught was more than Porter had ever dealt with before, so Porter couldn't dominate like he did in every other series.. It was similar to watching the otherwise dominant Curry in the 16' Finals - Curry had never experienced that kind of onslaught from Kyrie (and Lebron), so he was worn out and underperformed.

So Porter was overwhelmed, while KJ and Worthy were hurt - but otherwise, all 3 reached higher levels of dominant play than Pippen ever did and were elite-producing threats that required game-planning.. KJ dominated Magic and Hakeem (twice), while Worthy dominated the 87' and 88' Playoffs (FMVP), or Porter dominated the 90' and 92 Finals runs by playing better than Damian Lillard.

Btw, do you think that Shaq was just saying random things when he said that Pippen wasn't on scouting reports?... He was obviously remembering their playoff battles and thought it was a smart comeback.. Ultimately, any above-average sidekick will outscore opposing sidekicks the majority of series but Pippen's low peak capability meant that he couldn't outscore his matchup by material margins and didn't require gameplanning, while also having the worst efficiency and clutch of any sidekick.. Infact, most championship-winning sidekicks frequently outscore the opposing 1st option (which Pippen rarely did), or they frequently dominate their matchup (which Pippen couldn't do), or they have battles with the league's best players (which Pippen never did)..

Most sidekicks are worthy of "matchups" with the best players, but no one viewed him as having a "matchup" with Dominique, Barkley or Malone (even though Pippen and Nique faced off in the 93' Playoffs).. It was never talked about as a "matchup" by anyone back then - he simply wasn't viewed as anywhere near the top tier of elite 1st options.. Instead, he was viewed as a system player - opponents didn't need to gameplan for the lowest peak capability, efficiency, spacing or clutch of any 90's sidekick.. Accordingly, we see that Pippen outscored Smits in the 98' ECF (16.6 to 16.2), but shot 39% with worst-ever clutch stats, including 2 missed FT's right before the historic winner by Miller to tie the series.. This was typical for Pippen - no clutch and big choke-jobs - the worst scorer of any 90's sidekick (lowest peak capability, efficiency, spacing and clutch... the only sidekick that was a system player).

[3ba11]

.
SHORTER VERSION






its the OPPOSING teams that need more scoring help to counter MJ



So you're saying that Magic, Barkley, Malone and Kemp needed more scoring help to beat MJ

The problem is that their casts always outscored the Bulls' cast in every single Finals and series of Jordan's career, except his first series against the 85' Bucks.

So literally every team had more scoring help, aka you're caught in another lie.

The reality is that every contender in the league had starters coming off the bench, while several of the Bulls' starters were exclusively bench players on other teams (BJ, Paxson, Longley) and the bench itself was barely NBA-caliber outside of Kukoc.

Otoh, guys like Drazen Petrovic, Ainge and Cliff Robinson came off the Blazers' bench (who also had 3 guys average 20 in the 90' Playoffs).. Guys like Mason, Oakley, Derek Harper and many more came off NY's bench.. Or the 95' Sonics' had 3 All-NBA players that averaged 19+, while McMillan came off their bench (would easily start for Bulls).

the bulls simply had a THIN TEAM talent-wise, which is why Jordan had to average 41 against the Suns or 5 more than anyone in playoff history (that's 5 more than all the best scorers in history, aka Durant, Kobe, Lebron) with lower turnovers and better efficiency per possession (ortg).





bolded





Jordan locked down Porter in the 92' Finals but I can't' find the video right now - it was on the channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" and it's been posted on this site before but I can't find it for some reason.. Jordan wasn't the primary defender on Porter like he was other PG's, but he guarded him throughout the series as SG's frequently defend both guard positions.

So Porter was overwhelmed by an unprecedented onslaught (similar to Curry in the 16' Finals), while KJ and Worthy were hurt - but otherwise, all 3 reached higher levels of dominant play by carrying their 1st option in other series to make the Finals or face other great players.. KJ dominated Magic and Hakeem (twice), while Worthy dominated the 87' and 88' Playoffs (FMVP), or Porter carried the Blazers to the 92 Finals by playing better than Damian Lillard.

Btw, any above-average sidekick will outscore opposing sidekicks the majority of series, especially on winning teams with winning systems.. Infact, most winning sidekicks frequently outscore the #1 option and have battles with the best players in the league, so Pippen was the worst-scoring sidekick in the 90's for barely outscoring 2nd options with the worst efficiency, spacing, clutch and peak capability (not on scouting report)..

Do you think that Shaq was just saying random things when he said that Pippen wasn't on scouting reports?... He was obviously remembering their playoff battles and thought it was a smart comeback..

Accordingly, we see that Pippen outscored Smits in the 98' ECF (16.6 to 16.2), but shot 39% with worst-ever clutch stats, including 2 missed FT's right before the historic winner by Miller to tie the series.. This was typical for Pippen - no clutch and big choke-jobs - the worst scorer of any 90's sidekick (lowest peak capability, efficiency, spacing and clutch... the only sidekick that was a system player).

[Phoenix]

So you're saying that Magic, Barkley, Malone and Kemp needed more scoring help to beat MJ

The problem is that their casts always outscored the Bulls' cast in every single Finals and series of Jordan's career, except his first series against the 85' Bucks.

So literally every team had more scoring help, aka you're caught in another lie.

The reality is that every contender in the league had starters coming off the bench, while several of the Bulls' starters were exclusively bench players on other teams (BJ, Paxson, Longley) and the bench itself was barely NBA-caliber outside of Kukoc.

Otoh, guys like Drazen Petrovic, Ainge and Cliff Robinson came off the Blazers' bench (who also had 3 guys average 20 in the 90' Playoffs).. Guys like Mason, Oakley, Derek Harper and many more came off NY's bench.. Or the 95' Sonics' had 3 All-NBA players that averaged 19+, while McMillan came off their bench (would easily start for Bulls).

the bulls simply had a THIN TEAM talent-wise, which is why Jordan had to average 41 against the Suns or 5 more than anyone in playoff history (that's 5 more than all the best scorers in history, aka Durant, Kobe, Lebron) with lower turnovers and better efficiency per possession (ortg).








Jordan locked down Porter in the 92' Finals, which is documented on youtube but I can't find the video right now - it was on the channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" and it's been posted on this site before but I can't find it for some reason.. Jordan wasn't the primary defender on Porter like he was other PG's like Payton, Isiah or Strickland, but he guarded him throughout the series as SG's frequently defend both guard positions.. Jordan's 2-way onslaught was more than Porter had ever dealt with before, so Porter couldn't dominate like he did in every other series.. It was similar to watching the otherwise dominant Curry in the 16' Finals - Curry had never experienced that kind of onslaught from Kyrie (and Lebron), so he was worn out and underperformed.

So Porter was overwhelmed, while KJ and Worthy were hurt - but otherwise, all 3 reached higher levels of dominant play than Pippen ever did and were elite-producing threats that required game-planning.. KJ dominated Magic and Hakeem (twice), while Worthy dominated the 87' and 88' Playoffs (FMVP), or Porter dominated the 90' and 92 Finals runs by playing better than Damian Lillard.

Btw, do you think that Shaq was just saying random things when he said that Pippen wasn't on scouting reports?... He was obviously remembering their playoff battles and thought it was a smart comeback.. Ultimately, any above-average sidekick will outscore opposing sidekicks the majority of series but Pippen's low peak capability meant that he couldn't outscore his matchup by material margins and didn't require gameplanning, while also having the worst efficiency and clutch of any sidekick.. Infact, most championship-winning sidekicks frequently outscore the opposing 1st option (which Pippen rarely did), or they frequently dominate their matchup (which Pippen couldn't do), or they have battles with the league's best players (which Pippen never did)..

Most sidekicks are worthy of "matchups" with the best players, but no one viewed him as having a "matchup" with Dominique, Barkley or Malone (even though Pippen and Nique faced off in the 93' Playoffs).. It was never talked about as a "matchup" by anyone back then - he simply wasn't viewed as anywhere near the top tier of elite 1st options.. Instead, he was viewed as a system player - opponents didn't need to gameplan for the lowest peak capability, efficiency, spacing or clutch of any 90's sidekick.. Accordingly, we see that Pippen outscored Smits in the 98' ECF (16.6 to 16.2), but shot 39% with worst-ever clutch stats, including 2 missed FT's right before the historic winner by Miller to tie the series.. This was typical for Pippen - no clutch and big choke-jobs - the worst scorer of any 90's sidekick (lowest peak capability, efficiency, spacing and clutch... the only sidekick that was a system player).

Didn't really read past the first paragraph, and don't need to because my arguments are ironclad and soundly defeated your logic so your retort is irrelevant drivel. How does it feel to know you put that much effort into a reply that doesn't hold up against the obvious logic I presented? MJ was the only one scoring 30ppg in the 90s so his competition was facing a deficit from the get-go, meaning Pippen only needed to 'hold serve' and scoring more than he did would have only made the Bulls winning easier, ergo less GOAT case for MJ due to easier winning titles. If the rest of his cast was being outscored than you need to turn your attentions to them and not Pippen, who was outscoring the majority of 2nd options with higher GmSc in the playoffs between 1990 and 1998. Go make 1000 threads about BJ Armstrong or Horace Grant not scoring enough, but Pippen as 2nd scorer was fine when MJ himself was scoring 5-10 points more than the first option on opposing teams.

[3ba11]

Didn't really read past the first paragraph, and don't need to because my arguments are ironclad and soundly defeated your logic so your retort is irrelevant drivel. How does it feel to know you put that much effort into a reply that doesn't hold up against the obvious logic I presented? MJ was the only one scoring 30ppg in the 90s so his competition was facing a deficit from the get-go, meaning Pippen only needed to 'hold serve' and scoring more than he did would have only made the Bulls winning easier, ergo less GOAT case for MJ due to easier winning titles. If the rest of his cast was being outscored than you need to turn your attentions to them and not Pippen, who was outscoring the majority of 2nd options with higher GmSc in the playoffs between 1990 and 1998. Go make 1000 threads about BJ Armstrong or Horace Grant not scoring enough, but Pippen as 2nd scorer was fine when MJ himself was scoring 5-10 points more than the first option on opposing teams.


Nah, you literally said that teams needed more scoring help to beat MJ, even though their casts were always outscoring MJ's casts - so you were wrong - everyone had more scoring help than MJ

And Jordan is the only guy that averages 10-20 more than everyone on the court (91-93' Finals), so he's the only guy that could win with Pippen and the worst-ever scoring cast that those Bulls had...

So you're making the case.

Guys like Terry Porter outplayed Karl Malone in the 92' WCF with top tier dominance - Pippen couldn't provide that level of help because he's the only 90's sidekick that was a system player and not capable of elite production (not on scouting report).. So you're bragging about a system that barely outscores opposing 2nd options, while everyone else saw their sidekicks dominate the best players in the league, while providing superior efficiency, clutch, spacing and a peak capability that required actual game-planning (elite production capability).

Furthermore, Pippen is the only sidekick with a ton of massive bed-wettings that caused loss or nearly caused massive upsets, including the 90' ECF, 92' ECSF, 96' Finals, 97' Finals, 98' ECF, 98' Finals and many more.. Show me where another 1st option beat top teams with this kind of horrific garbage from a sidekick - you'll only find one-offs like 03' Duncan or 94' Hakeem.. And show me where a 1st option won a series where his sidekick didn't score at all when the game was tight (zero points in clutch time for an entire series).. Pippen is a joke and Jordan winning 6 chips with a mentally-fragile, low-producing, lane-clogger like Pippen is truly GOAT

[Hey Yo]

If you suck on offense and completely detrimental to the offense, what the hell difference does it make what option you're considered?

How can Pippen be 2nd option as their alleged worst offensive player?

Why was he even on the team?

3fag?

[3ba11]

If you suck on offense and completely detrimental to the offense, what the hell difference does it make what option you're considered?

How can Pippen be 2nd option as their alleged worst offensive player?

Why was he even on the team?


Pippen wasn't their worst offensive player because he was an all-time athletic talent and dunker.

He was a little better scorer than peak Jeff Green from 2015 (17 ppg), which is enough to be 2nd option on that thin Bulls' roster

[Phoenix]

Nah, you literally said that teams needed more scoring help to beat MJ, even though their casts were always outscoring MJ's casts - so you were wrong - everyone had more scoring help than MJ

And Jordan is the only guy that averages 10-20 more than everyone on the court (91-93' Finals), so he's the only guy that could win with Pippen and the worst-ever scoring cast that those Bulls had...

So you're making the case.

Guys like Terry Porter outplayed Karl Malone in the 92' WCF with top tier dominance - Pippen couldn't provide that level of help because he's the only 90's sidekick that was a system player and not capable of elite production (not on scouting report).. So you're bragging about a system that barely outscores opposing 2nd options, while everyone else saw their sidekicks dominate the best players in the league, while providing superior efficiency, clutch, spacing and a peak capability that required actual game-planning (elite production capability).

Furthermore, Pippen is the only sidekick with a ton of massive bed-wettings that caused loss or nearly caused massive upsets, including the 90' ECF, 92' ECSF, 96' Finals, 97' Finals, 98' ECF, 98' Finals and many more.. Show me where another 1st option beat top teams with this kind of horrific garbage from a sidekick - you'll only find one-offs like 03' Duncan or 94' Hakeem.. And show me where a 1st option won a series where his sidekick didn't score at all when the game was tight (zero points in clutch time for an entire series).. Pippen is a joke and Jordan winning 6 chips with a mentally-fragile, low-producing, lane-clogger like Pippen is truly GOAT

Threadcliffs, Pippen outscored with higher GmSc the majority of second options in 1990-1998 playoff series, this is the historical record which I posted here months ago so whatever you said above without me bothering to do more than skim through it is wrong. And since MJ was out scoring everyone on the court by 10-20 points, his competition was running at a deficit and needed more scoring help

So you're making my case

Ultimately, the majority of MJs 90s competition was working with a deficit because no first option could match MJs scoring and Pippen 'held' serve as a 2nd scorer. Had Pippen scored more than he did it would have made winning championships easier and weaken MJs GOAT case. That's argument is too logical and ironclad to be irrefutable.

[Phoenix]

Iggy has 4 rings, why isn't he considered a top 30 player?

3fakkit?

[3ba11]

Pippen outscored the majority of second options in 1990-1998 playoff series





Every above-average sidekick does that but Pippen was the only sidekick that never dominated or outplayed 1st options, while having worst-ever efficiency, clutch, and didn't require game-planning - he simply wasn't defended (lowest peak capability of any sidekick).

So he's the worst-scoring sidekick in the 90's, while also being the only sidekick that forced his team to win while he choked with massive bed-wettings - only Jordan beat 5 SRS teams with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (a couple one-offs from Hakeem and Duncan notwithstanding).






And since MJ was out scoring everyone on the court by 10-20 points, his competition was running at a deficit and needed more scoring help





Every opposing cast outscored the Bulls' cast for every series of Jordan's career, so every team had more scoring help than Jordan - only Jordan's goat scoring allowed the Bulls to win.

So you just sound dumb now.. And in denial.. I've never seen you like this.. :facepalm:

Every contender in the league had starters coming off the bench, while the Bulls' bench was barely NBA-caliber outside of Kukoc and several of the Bulls' starters were exclusively bench players on other teams (BJ, Paxson, Longley),






Ultimately, the majority of MJs 90s competition was working with a deficit because no first option could match MJs scoring and Pippen 'held' serve as a 2nd scorer.





If no first option can match MJ's scoring, then they can't provide the 10-20 ppg advantage needed to win Finals with an average-scoring sidekick (or below) and an absolutely trash cast that was barely above g-league level.

Ultimately, Jordan led everyone in the Finals by 10-20 ppg, while guys like Lebron get outscored or lead teammates by only 2-6 ppg (never carried scoring load in Finals, aka never defeated maximum defensive attention).






Pippen





* The Bulls had to gameplan to prevent KJ from dominating them like he did Magic and Hakeem (twice).

* The Bulls had to gameplan to prevent Terry Porter from shooting 53% on threes (6 attempts) and getting 26/8 like he did in the previous series (WCF).

* The Bulls had to gameplan to stop Worthy from dominating them like he did many teams.

* The Bulls had to gameplan to stop Payton and Kemp from dropping 25/10 like they did in other series or getting FMVP like Kemp almost did


TLDR: only Pippen had low peak capability and couldn't dominate, so he didn't require gameplanning or defending him - that's why his book is called "unguarded" - he subconsciously knows that he was AIDS as a scorer and didn't require any defensive attention (system player)

[Phoenix]

Every above-average sidekick does that but Pippen was the only sidekick that never dominated or outplayed 1st options, while having worst-ever efficiency, clutch, and didn't require game-planning - he simply wasn't defended (lowest peak capability of any sidekick).

So he's the worst-scoring sidekick in the 90's, while also being the only sidekick that forced his team to win while he choked with massive bed-wettings - only Jordan beat 5 SRS teams with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (a couple one-offs from Hakeem and Duncan notwithstanding).






Every opposing cast outscored the Bulls' cast for every series of Jordan's career, so every team had more scoring help than Jordan - only Jordan's goat scoring allowed the Bulls to win.

So you just sound dumb now.. And in denial.. I've never seen you like this.. :facepalm:

Every contender in the league had starters coming off the bench, while the Bulls' bench was barely NBA-caliber outside of Kukoc and several of the Bulls' starters were exclusively bench players on other teams (BJ, Paxson, Longley),






If no first option can match MJ's scoring, then they can't provide the 10-20 ppg advantage needed to win Finals with an average-scoring sidekick (or below) and an absolutely trash cast that was barely above g-league level.

Ultimately, Jordan led everyone in the Finals by 10-20 ppg, while guys like Lebron get outscored or lead teammates by only 2-6 ppg (never carried scoring load in Finals, aka never defeated maximum defensive attention).






* The Bulls had to gameplan to prevent KJ from dominating them like he did Magic and Hakeem (twice).

* The Bulls had to gameplan to prevent Terry Porter from shooting 53% on threes (6 attempts) and getting 26/8 like he did in the previous series (WCF).

* The Bulls had to gameplan to stop Worthy from dominating them like he did many teams.

* The Bulls had to gameplan to stop Payton and Kemp from dropping 25/10 like they did in other series or getting FMVP like Kemp almost did


TLDR: only Pippen had low peak capability and couldn't dominate, so he didn't require gameplanning or defending him - that's why his book is called "unguarded" - he subconsciously knows that he was AIDS as a scorer and didn't require any defensive attention (system player)

So to recap, you've graciously made my argument by admitting that MJ outscored everyone by 10-20 so the Bulls ran at an inherent scoring advantage against his 90's competition. Because of this, Pippen only needed to 'hold serve' by scoring anywhere from 18-22ppg, which was more than the majority of 2nd options the 90s Bulls ran into. He didn't need to 'dominate' scoring, he merely needed to not get outscored by the opposing 2nd option as the Bulls already had a dominant scorer in MJ. If the Bulls had 'two dominant scorers' that would have given them a decided edge on their 90's competition which would have made winning championships easier. You're essentially saying that Pippen should have scored more and thus MJ wouldn't need to carry or defeat maximum defensive attetion, which kills your entire argument as to why he is GOAT. :hammerhead:

Infallible when you think about it.

THREADCLIFFS

Because the Bulls had the scoring edge between Jordan and Pippen, this means their main competition needed more scoring help from role players to offset lower scoring first options( Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Kemp, Malone, Ewing) and lower scoring 2nd options( Worthy, Porter, KJ/Majerle, Hornachek/Stockton, Price, Starks, Mourning, Smits etc etc). TLDR; it wasn't MJ that needed scoring help, it was his competition. If Jordan/Pippen are outscoring opposing first/2nd options then the problem isn't Pippen as to why opposing casts were outscoring the Bulls supporting cast, that's an issue mostly with players 3-12. So again, its THE COMPETING first/2nd options that needed better scoring to offset the Bulls scoring advantage with Jordan/Pippen. Or are you advocating that MJ should have outscored the opposing first option, Pippen should have dominated the opposing 2nd option, AND the rest of the Bulls should have also outscored the opposing role players so that, what? They can blow out teams by 50? And this HELPS MJ's GOAT case advocating for him to have both a BETTER scoring 2nd option AND better scoring role players than everyone else? Because making it easier is how we judge these things?

What is Logic for $500, Alex? :hammerhead:

[aj1987]

So to recap, you've graciously made my argument by admitting that MJ outscored everyone by 10-20 so the Bulls ran at an inherent scoring advantage against his 90's competition. Because of this, Pippen only needed to 'hold serve' by scoring anywhere from 18-22ppg, which was more than the majority of 2nd options the 90s Bulls ran into. Because the Bulls had the scoring edge between Jordan and Pippen, this means their main competition needed more scoring help from role players to offset lower scoring first options( Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Kemp, Malone) and lower scoring 2nd options( Worthy, Porter, KJ/Majerle, Hornachek/Stockton, Price, Starks, Mourning, Smits etc etc). TLDR; it wasn't MJ that needed scoring help, it was his competition. Good on you for seeing the folly of your previous positions.

I don't know why you waste your time with that turd. He literally doesn't watch basketball and has actually admitted to only ever watching highlights. Even the '90's games.

[Phoenix]

I don't know why you waste your time with that turd. He literally doesn't watch basketball and has actually admitted to only ever watching highlights. Even the '90's games.

I'm just fukking around. I didn't even read what he said past the first few sentences. :lol

[3ba11]

So to recap, you've made my argument by admitting that MJ outscored everyone by 10-20 so the Bulls ran at an inherent scoring advantage against his 90's competition.





^^^ only Jordan had this scoring advantage, so only he could've won with those Bulls

Their weak-scoring cast needed Jordan to average 10-20 more than anyone in the Finals and was outscored in every series of Jordan's career.






Because of this, Pippen only needed to 'hold serve' by scoring anywhere from 18-22ppg, which was more than the majority of 2nd options the 90s Bulls ran into.





Nonsense

Pippen averaged less than opposing sidekicks however the top players from opposing teams were mostly backcourt players that would underperform against MJ (Magic, Porter, Drexler, KJ, Majerle, Stockton, Hornacek, Payton, Penny, Starks, Steve Smith).

Otherwise, all the notable 90's sidekicks were infact "1bs" that achieved elite stats and most of them completely dominated the series prior to facing the Bulls in the Finals.

Specifically, Terry Porter shot 53% on threes (6 attempts), while averaging 26/8 and outplaying Karl Malone in the 92' WCF... Meanwhile, Stockton hit the series walk-off in Barkley's face and averaged 21/11 in the 97' WCF to outplay Barkley..

Otoh, Pippen is the only sidekick that couldn't compete with 1st options - the triangle system gave him normal ppg for a 2nd option but he wasn't on the scouting report or defended due to low peak capability (system player), while his worst-ever efficiency, clutch and MJ's presence made Pippen the least-defended sidekick ever.

And btw. Pippen couldn't score more -16-22 ppg with worst-ever efficiency and clutch - this was his capability and that was only in the triangle - he was worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle, aka 14 on 40% alongside Hakeem

[ShawkFactory]

So to recap, you've graciously made my argument by admitting that MJ outscored everyone by 10-20 so the Bulls ran at an inherent scoring advantage against his 90's competition. Because of this, Pippen only needed to 'hold serve' by scoring anywhere from 18-22ppg, which was more than the majority of 2nd options the 90s Bulls ran into. He didn't need to 'dominate' scoring, he merely needed to not get outscored by the opposing 2nd option as the Bulls already had a dominant scorer in MJ. If the Bulls had 'two dominant scorers' that would have given them a decided edge on their 90's competition which would have made winning championships easier. You're essentially saying that Pippen should have scored more and thus MJ wouldn't need to carry or defeat maximum defensive attetion, which kills your entire argument as to why he is GOAT. :hammerhead:

Infallible when you think about it.

THREADCLIFFS

Because the Bulls had the scoring edge between Jordan and Pippen, this means their main competition needed more scoring help from role players to offset lower scoring first options( Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Kemp, Malone, Ewing) and lower scoring 2nd options( Worthy, Porter, KJ/Majerle, Hornachek/Stockton, Price, Starks, Mourning, Smits etc etc). TLDR; it wasn't MJ that needed scoring help, it was his competition. If Jordan/Pippen are outscoring opposing first/2nd options then the problem isn't Pippen as to why opposing casts were outscoring the Bulls supporting cast, that's an issue mostly with players 3-12. So again, its THE COMPETING first/2nd options that needed better scoring to offset the Bulls scoring advantage with Jordan/Pippen. Or are you advocating that MJ should have outscored the opposing first option, Pippen should have dominated the opposing 2nd option, AND the rest of the Bulls should have also outscored the opposing role players so that, what? They can blow out teams by 50? And this HELPS MJ's GOAT case advocating for him to have both a BETTER scoring 2nd option AND better scoring role players than everyone else? Because making it easier is how we judge these things?

What is Logic for $500, Alex? :hammerhead:

Yea using his logic, when you removed MJ from the 94 Bulls we should have seen a 10-20ppg drop off from the team.

[Phoenix]

^^^ only Jordan had this scoring advantage, so only he could've won with those Bulls

Their weak-scoring cast needed Jordan to average 10-20 more than anyone in the Finals and was outscored in every series of Jordan's career.






Nonsense

Pippen averaged less than opposing sidekicks however the top players from opposing teams were mostly backcourt players that would underperform against MJ (Magic, Porter, Drexler, KJ, Majerle, Stockton, Hornacek, Payton, Penny, Starks, Steve Smith).

Otherwise, all the notable 90's sidekicks were infact "1bs" that achieved elite stats and most of them completely dominated the series prior to facing the Bulls in the Finals.

Specifically, Terry Porter shot 53% on threes (6 attempts), while averaging 26/8 and outplaying Karl Malone in the 92' WCF... Meanwhile, Stockton hit the series walk-off in Barkley's face and averaged 21/11 in the 97' WCF to outplay Barkley..

Otoh, Pippen is the only sidekick that couldn't compete with 1st options - the triangle system gave him normal ppg for a 2nd option but he wasn't on the scouting report or defended due to low peak capability (system player), while his worst-ever efficiency, clutch and MJ's presence made Pippen the least-defended sidekick ever.

And btw. Pippen couldn't score more -16-22 ppg with worst-ever efficiency and clutch - this was his capability and that was only in the triangle - he was worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle, aka 14 on 40% alongside Hakeem

So since you acknowledge that MJ in the 90's had a 10-20ppg scoring advantage on everyone else, while understanding that Pippen in the playoffs outscored the majority of opposing 2nd options, you accept that the MJ/Pippen tandem had a scoring edge on the first/second options of their competition, which put pressure on opposing casts to make up the difference.

TLDR;

If eg. Patrick Ewing(26ppg) and John Starks (15ppg) average a combined 41ppg like they did in the 93 playoffs against MJ (32ppg) and Scottie's(23ppg) combined 65ppg, then it is Ewing who needs scoring help to offset the 23 point deficit. If Clyde Drexler(25ppg) and Terry Porter(16ppg) average a combined 41ppg against MJ(36ppg) and Scottie's(21ppg) combined 67ppg in the 92 finals, then it's Drexler who needs the scoring help to offset a 26 point deficit. To otherwise suggest that MJ should 1) outscore everyone by double digits 2)have a 2nd option outscore everyone and 3) have his role players outscore opposing role players would destroy your main GOAT argument that MJ carried the scoring load and 'defeated maximum defensive attention'.

It's truly incredible that all this time you've actually been making the argument that MJ's competition was the ones needing scoring help. It's so simple really and thanks for your efforts.

[Phoenix]

Yea using his logic, when you removed MJ from the 94 Bulls we should have seen a 10-20ppg drop off from the team.

It's fun watching him trip over himself.

[Phoenix]

https://i.postimg.cc/xdDWD1Yx/Star-Trek-Generations-Data-Laughs-2.gif

[BarberSchool]

Barkley

Jordan

Magic

[WhiteKyrie]

88: MJ
89: MJ
90: MJ
91: MJ
92: MJ

1993, Mike is still clearly the best in the world, both sides of the ball, but I can see in this instance, especially with how great he was that Charles win it. Especially if Mike got the MVPs he should’ve in 1989 and 1990.

[Axe]

88: MJ
89: MJ
90: MJ
91: MJ
92: MJ

1993, Mike is still clearly the best in the world, both sides of the ball, but I can see in this instance, especially with how great he was that Charles win it. Especially if Mike got the MVPs he should’ve in 1989 and 1990.
So best in the world that his team just did fine in 1994 without him.

[BigShotBob]

So best in the world that his team just did fine in 1994 without him.

"Just fine" = Losing in the second round

Yet when Kyrie does it he "can't win anything without Lebron"

Which is it?

[Axe]

"Just fine" = Losing in the second round

Yet when Kyrie does it he "can't win anything without Lebron"

Which is it?
So winning 40 games at best without his second option and being first round fodder is a lot better than winning 55 games without the first option that was at least able to win a playoff series? Oh casuals. :ohwell:

[3ba11]

It's fun watching him trip over himself.


We agree that opposing 1st options like Shaq or Malone are the only ones at a deficit to the Bulls, while the #3 through 12 guys were demolishing the Bulls and the 2nd options were mostly backcourt players and superior scorers than Pippen (when they weren't facing MJ) with better efficiency, clutch and peak capability (game-planning required).

Otherwise, nothing else you said makes any sense or is the opposite of the truth (you're trolling)

[Phoenix]

We agree that opposing 1st options like Shaq or Malone are the only ones at a deficit to the Bulls, while the #3 through 12 guys were demolishing the Bulls and the 2nd options were mostly backcourt players and superior scorers than Pippen (when they weren't facing MJ) with better efficiency, clutch and peak capability (game-planning required).

Otherwise, nothing else you said makes any sense or is the opposite of the truth (you're trolling)

3ball was banned for 3 days, frothing at the mouth to answer a conversation I forgot about. :oldlol:

So we agree that MJ by virtue of outscoring everyone by 10-20 points( Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Malone) in the majority of 90s Bulls competition and Scottie by virtue of outscoring the majority of opposing 2nd options in the playoffs from 1990-1998( Starks, Price, Daughterty, Worthy, Porter, Majerle, KJ, Mourning, Stockton, Hornacek) enjoyed a scoring advantage that required their competition to need more scoring help and put pressure on role players to make up the scoring deficit. That is the historical record as I have posted on this board before.

It all makes sense and using your own argument to defeat you is the sweetest victory of all. Thanks for your efforts.:cheers:

[Overdrive]

TLDR;

If eg. Patrick Ewing(26ppg) and John Starks (15ppg) average a combined 41ppg like they did in the 93 playoffs against MJ (32ppg) and Scottie's(23ppg) combined 65ppg, then it is Ewing who needs scoring help to offset the 23 point deficit. If Clyde Drexler(25ppg) and Terry Porter(16ppg) average a combined 41ppg against MJ(36ppg) and Scottie's(21ppg) combined 67ppg in the 92 finals, then it's Drexler who needs the scoring help to offset a 26 point deficit. To otherwise suggest that MJ should 1) outscore everyone by double digits 2)have a 2nd option outscore everyone and 3) have his role players outscore opposing role players would destroy your main GOAT argument that MJ carried the scoring load and 'defeated maximum defensive attention'.

It's truly incredible that all this time you've actually been making the argument that MJ's competition was the ones needing scoring help. It's so simple really and thanks for your efforts.

I agree with your point, but you might want to check the numbers again.

[Phoenix]

I agree with your point, but you might want to check the numbers again.

:lol You're right. MJ doing 36 and Scottie 21 would be 57, not 67. Whoops..but yeah you otherwise get it. The two of them combined were scoring like 15-20 more than the opposing first/2nd options in the 90s. Hell in many series the first options themselves barely hit 25ppg, but 3nutball is basically arguing that his 2nd option should have been scoring at the level of the opposing teams FIRST option.

[Overdrive]

:lol You're right. MJ doing 36 and Scottie 21 would be 57, not 67. Whoops..but yeah you otherwise get it. The two of them combined were scoring like 15-20 more than the opposing first/2nd options in the 90s. Hell in many series the first options themselves barely hit 25ppg, but 3nutball is basically arguing that his 2nd option should have been scoring at the level of the opposing teams FIRST option.

The funniest part is that 3ball acts like Jordan needed to overcome Scottie Pippen.

[3ba11]

3ball was banned for 3 days, frothing at the mouth to answer a conversation I forgot about. :oldlol:

So we agree that MJ by virtue of outscoring everyone by 10-20 points( Magic, Drexler, Barkley, Malone) in the majority of 90s Bulls competition and Scottie by virtue of outscoring the majority of opposing 2nd options in the playoffs from 1990-1998( Starks, Price, Daughterty, Worthy, Porter, Majerle, KJ, Mourning, Stockton, Hornacek) enjoyed a scoring advantage that required their competition to need more scoring help and put pressure on role players to make up the scoring deficit. That is the historical record as I have posted on this board before.

It all makes sense and using your own argument to defeat you is the sweetest victory of all. Thanks for your efforts.:cheers:


Opposing 1st options like Shaq or Malone are the only ones at a deficit to the Bulls

The #3 through 12 guys were demolishing the Bulls and the 2nd options were mostly backcourt players that underperformed against MJ, but otherwise were far superior scorers to Pippen including better efficiency, clutch and peak capability ( game-planning required (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif).

That's the historical record - Jordan had to overcome Pippen's decade-worst passing and scoring among notable 90's sidekicks - Pippen was the only 90's sidekick that wasn't a go-to player (system player) and wasn't capable of elite APG, PPG, viable efficiency or even a modicum of clutch.. MJ was usually all alone in games especially down the stretch.. This is the historical, statistical record.

[CurryOverLebron]

The only reason they wanted to steal Magic's award was to keep him from having this resume.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Johnson

Career highlights and awards

5× NBA champion (1980, 1982, 1985, 1987, 1988)
3× NBA Finals MVP (1980, 1982, 1987)
3× NBA Most Valuable Player (1987, 1989, 1990)

[Phoenix]

Opposing 1st options like Shaq or Malone are the only ones at a deficit to the Bulls

The #3 through 12 guys were demolishing the Bulls and the 2nd options were mostly backcourt players that underperformed against MJ, but otherwise were far superior scorers to Pippen including better efficiency, clutch and peak capability ( game-planning required (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif).

That's the historical record - Jordan had to overcome Pippen's decade-worst passing and scoring among notable 90's sidekicks - Pippen was the only 90's sidekick that wasn't a go-to player (system player) and wasn't capable of elite APG, PPG, viable efficiency or even a modicum of clutch.. MJ was usually all alone in games especially down the stretch.. This is the historical, statistical record.

I get it. All these years of making the case that MJ needed scoring help and I expertly flipped it back into an irrefutable argument based on logic a 5 year old can comprehend:

In the 1992 finals, MJ averaged 36ppg and Scottie 21ppg for a combined 57ppg. The opposing first and 2nd options Drexler and Porter averaged 25 and 16ppg respectively for 41ppg. This is the historical, statistical record. With that 16ppg advantage, the onus was on the opposing supporting cast to make up that deficit.

So in that example and every one like it, it's the opposing first option that needed scoring help to make up the deficit, not the guy whose own scoring was dominant enough to give the Bulls the edge on a nightly basis which meant they didnt need a 2nd dominant scorer to win titles( as demonstrated 6 times) as their opposition rarely featured two dominant scorers. The fact that you say it was mostly backcourt players underperforming against MJ is even better, because that means Scottie didnt have to worry about facing too many elite scorers at his own position. In fact what other prominent all-star level small forwards did Pippen face in the playoffs other than Worthy in 91, Nique in 93 or Rice in 98? So thanks, that does an even better job of making my argument for me.

You can try and weasel yourself out of that to your little hearts content, but I have soundly defeated your argument