I'm considering putting Kobe over MJ as the GOAT because of something you guys said

[3ba11]

since kobe didn't need pippen like mj did, he's better than MJ

everyone says Jordan needed Pippen's passing help and defense, while Kobe repeated without passing help or elite defensive help from a teammate - he was the passing leader for 2009 and 2010 and the only all-defender on his team.

so thanks guys for sorting this out.. if there's something I'm missing - let me know - like if Pippen's 5 assists wasn't that important or something (given that Kobe won without it)

[Hey Yo]

OP on his 2nd 5th of Thunderbird

[Yeezy]

kobe is the greatest player ever in a vacuum. Jordan has the greatest legacy


if kobe went to college and was drafted to a team where he got all the shots from the start and they built well around him I have no doubt he has a similar jordan career path. but kobes career can't be the goat. only maybe skills/1 on 1/respect wise for his work ethic. killer mentality and influence on this generation. everyone in the nba wears kobes shoes. nobody wears Jordan's anymore

[Full Court]

since kobe didn't need pippen like mj did, he's better than MJ

everyone says Jordan needed Pippen's passing help and defense, while Kobe repeated without passing help or elite defensive help from a teammate - he was the passing leader for 2009 and 2010 and the only all-defender on his team.

so thanks guys for sorting this out.. if there's something I'm missing - let me know - like if Pippen's 5 assists wasn't that important or something (given that Kobe won without it)

Kobe had way more help than Jordan ever did.

Are you familiar with Shaquille O'Neal?

[Yeezy]

Kobe had way more help than Jordan ever did.

Are you familiar with Shaquille O'Neal?

kobe is the only player in history to win multiple titles without another top 75 player all time. perhaps maybe Duncan too. can't remember. but gasol never won finals mvp. Parker did

[1987_Lakers]

Kobe had way more help than Jordan ever did.

Are you familiar with Shaquille O'Neal?

This is the guy who you said is the smartest poster on ISH? :lol

[Hey Yo]

:yaohappy:

[1987_Lakers]

RR3's theory was actually true. OP is really a Kobe stan who hides behind MJ.

[1987_Lakers]

kobe is the only player in history to win multiple titles without another top 75 player all time. perhaps maybe Duncan too. can't remember. but gasol never won finals mvp. Parker did

This is such dumb statement that has no context. Gasol was a better 2nd option than any 2nd option Hakeem had when he won back to back, including Drexler who was no longer in his prime.

[Yeezy]

OP knows that kobe proved himself while jordan and lebron never truly did


I mean if you guys are truly gonna say that sidekicks make or break you then it's kobe/Duncan at the top. followed by hakeem

[SouBeachTalents]

"I'm considering putting Kobe over MJ as the GOAT because I spent Christmas alone and need attention"

What OP really meant to say

[RRR3]

You’ve always had Kobe as the GOAT. You’re just afraid to argue it because he has no case.

[Yeezy]

You’ve always had Kobe as the GOAT. You’re just afraid to argue it because he has no case.

the argument is your argument against mj being goat. that's the joke

[Hey Yo]

the argument is your argument against mj being goat. that's the joke

The joke's in your hand, chico

[Yeezy]

jordan fans say lebron colluded for his success

lebron fans say jordan never proved himself without pippen


kobe = zero collusions

kobe = proved himself without Shaq.. twice

[3ba11]

You’ve always had Kobe as the GOAT. You’re just afraid to argue it because he has no case.


I remember honestly being scared of Kobe when MJ faced him in 98'

Everyone had seen the young kid's flashy and somewhat unprecedented moves - Jordan fans were definitely apprehensive because Kobe was kind of scary with an unpredictable repertoire - you never knew what move was coming.. Eras were colliding and it was an exciting, rare thing to see.. Kobe didn't disappoint and made everyone wonder how great he was - a 19-year old going head-to-head with prime Michael and not looking scared at all.. Meanwhile, MJ tried his best to appear that he wasn't going full bore against the hotshot kid and still scored 36 playing it cool

[Axe]

This is the guy who you said is the smartest poster on ISH? :lol
'Blasphemy' :kobe:

[SouBeachTalents]

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/.image/ar_4:3%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_aut o:good%2Cw_1200/MTg3MTYxMDAwMTIxMDgzNzg5/kobe-bryant-shaquille-oneal-phil-jackson-karl-malone-gary-payton.jpg

https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8muciMbHF1qcmnsoo1_1280.png

Kobe never colluded guys :lol

And your bullshit reasoning doesn't supersede the TREMENDOUS advantages Jordan & LeBron have over Kobe in production, accolades, advanced metrics etc.

[Axe]

since kobe didn't need pippen like mj did, he's better than MJ

everyone says Jordan needed Pippen's passing help and defense, while Kobe repeated without passing help or elite defensive help from a teammate - he was the passing leader for 2009 and 2010 and the only all-defender on his team.

so thanks guys for sorting this out.. if there's something I'm missing - let me know - like if Pippen's 5 assists wasn't that important or something (given that Kobe won without it)
So you believe that now because he's not entirely shackled to a specific player for his playoff success unlike jordan was? Intriguing.

[Yeezy]

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/.image/ar_4:3%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_aut o:good%2Cw_1200/MTg3MTYxMDAwMTIxMDgzNzg5/kobe-bryant-shaquille-oneal-phil-jackson-karl-malone-gary-payton.jpg

https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8muciMbHF1qcmnsoo1_1280.png

Kobe never colluded guys :lol

And your bullshit reasoning doesn't supersede the TREMENDOUS advantages Jordan & LeBron have over Kobe in production, accolades, advanced metrics etc.

gp and malone latched onto shaq. kobe wasnt calling them up thats for sure. and Kobe had nothing to do with 2013 but I'm pretty sure those were acquisitions through trade and the lakers gave up a ton

[Yeezy]

there's a huge difference between old guys ring chasing for the minimum and colluding with wade/bosh/love/AD/Westbrook in some off-season calls/meetings

notice I never bring up Howard and rondo going to the Lakers in 2020 as a collusion. that's a malone/Payton type old man end of the road thing

[3ba11]

https://www.basketballnetwork.net/.image/ar_4:3%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_aut o:good%2Cw_1200/MTg3MTYxMDAwMTIxMDgzNzg5/kobe-bryant-shaquille-oneal-phil-jackson-karl-malone-gary-payton.jpg

https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8muciMbHF1qcmnsoo1_1280.png

Kobe never colluded guys :lol

And your bullshit reasoning doesn't supersede the TREMENDOUS advantages Jordan & LeBron have over Kobe in production, accolades, advanced metrics etc.


Kobe can't take the blame for the first collusion because he wasn't the 1st option (although he should've been) - Shaq was still considered the top dog, so the loss is on him.

The 2nd collusion failed because Kobe was old and past his prime, while Kobe could tell that Dwight wasn't on the same page from day 1:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/vGlCQm60W_0


So again, Kobe didn't need Pippen, which means he's better than Mike.. Mike needed Pippen's passing and defense, while Kobe didn't, so Kobe is superior - now if you're saying that pippen wasn't that good and his hustle play could be replaced in any number of ways, then I'm listening.. otherwise, you guys say that MJ needed Pippen, whereas Kobe won without a top 75 guy, or a good passing and defending teammate like pippen... so either pippen wasn't that good, or kobe > mj

the case for kobe is that he's the most skilled player ever, while also being able to win with less, aka sidekicks that were never THAT GUY (secondary producers) - he could win with less due to sufficient brand of ball to develop teammates (win organically) and carry the scoring load against top teams (sufficient brand of ball at carry-job volume to beat top teams, aka expert jumpshooting skill to keep the ball moving)

[Yeezy]

Kobe can't take the blame for the first collusion because he wasn't the 1st option (although he should've been) - Shaq was still considered the top dog, so the loss is on him.

The 2nd collusion failed because Kobe was old and past his prime, while Kobe could tell that Dwight wasn't on the same page from day 1:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/vGlCQm60W_0


So again, Kobe didn't need Pippen, which means he's better than Mike.. Mike needed Pippen's passing and defense, while Kobe didn't, so Kobe is superior - now if you're saying that pippen wasn't that good and his hustle play could be replaced in any number of ways, then I'm listening.. otherwise, you guys say that MJ needed Pippen, whereas Kobe won without a top 75 guy or a good passing or defending teammate like pippen... so either pippen wasn't that good, or kobe > mj

the case for kobe is that he's the most skilled player ever, while also being able to win with less, aka sidekicks that were never THAT GUY (secondary producers) - he could win with less due to sufficient brand of ball to develop teammates (win organically) and carry the scoring load against top teams (sufficient brand of ball at carry-job volume, aka expert jumpshooting skill to keep the ball moving)

you're doing it wrong. Kobe literally never had a single conversation with payton/malone and neither guy was prime. they signed for the minimum


and Dwight was traded for Bynum. and the lakers traded a bunch of 1st rounders for nash who was also finished.


collusions aren't washed up old bums. they're made by prime superstars

[1987_Lakers]

Kobe can't take the blame for the first collusion because he wasn't the 1st option

He sure acted like he was the 1st option in the Finals that year. Shot us out of the Finals.

[Yeezy]

nobody talks about lebron colluding with 2010 shaq

thats a malone/Payton type addition. it doesn't count because it didn't make a huge difference due to his advanced age and decline

[Yeezy]

He sure acted like he was the 1st option in the Finals that year. Shot us out of the Finals.

shaq admitted to sabotaging the Lakers by telling kobe he couldn't win without him. that's the initial reason for their beef.

boy was he wrong

[Axe]

nobody talks about lebron colluding with 2010 shaq

thats a malone/Payton type addition. it doesn't count because it didn't make a huge difference due to his advanced age and decline
Yet somehow, a lakers team with a 37 year old 'fringe top 10 player all-time' is supposed to be a superteam only because they have a washed up 2017 league mvp who's about to turn 35 y.o. already next year. :sleeping

[ShawkFactory]

since kobe didn't need pippen like mj did, he's better than MJ

everyone says Jordan needed Pippen's passing help and defense, while Kobe repeated without passing help or elite defensive help from a teammate - he was the passing leader for 2009 and 2010 and the only all-defender on his team.

so thanks guys for sorting this out.. if there's something I'm missing - let me know - like if Pippen's 5 assists wasn't that important or something (given that Kobe won without it)

By all means. Knock yourself out.

[3ba11]

He sure acted like he was the 1st option in the Finals that year. Shot us out of the Finals.


There was a chemistry struggle in 2003 and 2004 because Shaq/Kobe were feuding about who should be the top dog - so the bad series for Kobe was because of the bad chemistry and feud.

I blame Shaq for not moving aside earlier and becoming Kobe's "pippen" - if everyone was on the same page with Kobe as the top dog, the Lakers would've had great chemistry and continued winning like the did in 2009 and 2010 with Pau.. Kobe's rings with Pau proved that he should've been top dog once Shaq started to decline in 2003 and certainly by 2004.

[3ba11]

By all means. Knock yourself out.


either Kobe > MJ

or

Kobe's winning without Pippen means that Pippen wasn't that good and his "passing" and "defense" was easily replaceable...

indeed, the bulls didn't need pippen to have the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat and worse defenses than their ECF and Finals opponents (91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Knicks)

[AirBonner]

Steve Nash has more mvps than Kobe

[Yeezy]

Steve Nash has more mvps than Kobe

that's not kobes fault. that's the voters who denied the importance of defense and lack of help

[Axe]

either Kobe > MJ

or

Kobe's winning without Pippen means that Pippen's "passing" and "defense" was easily replaceable...
You mean kobe was at least able to win with multiple guys and won his first ring when he was just 21 y.o.? Ouch. :(

[Yeezy]

Yet somehow, a lakers team with a 37 year old 'fringe top 10 player all-time' is supposed to be a superteam only because they have a washed up 2017 league mvp who's about to turn 35 y.o. already next year. :sleeping

I never called the Westbrook Lakers a superteam. I predicted this mess to fail from the start. Lakers in 2020 wasn't a super team either. just a davis theft and bubble fluke

[1987_Lakers]

that's not kobes fault. that's the voters who denied the importance of defense and lack of help

lol at thinking Kobe's defense was anything special in '06. Nash also won a bunch of games in '06 without Amare.

[Axe]

I never called the Westbrook Lakers a superteam. I predicted this mess to fail from the start. Lakers in 2020 wasn't a super team either. just a davis theft and bubble fluke
Obviously it's not you lmao.

[Yeezy]

lol at thinking Kobe's defense was anything special in '06. Nash also won a bunch of games in '06 without Amare.

the sun's without amare still had an infinitely better roster. and nash was the biggest liability in the nba on defense. Kobe wasnt what he was in 2003 but he was still one of the best defenders. 2 years later he would literally show lebron/wade and the rest of team usa what defensive intensity is and its importance to set the tone. lebron made a movie about it. you should check it out

[HoopsNY]

RR3's theory was actually true. OP is really a Kobe stan who hides behind MJ.

Man you said it. And shouts to RRR3 for saying this cause he was SPOT ON.

[HoopsNY]

So apparently Pippen was a bum. But Jordan won with a bum so he's the GOAT. But now Kobe won without a bum so that makes him more of a GOAT than the guy who won without a bum. We're officially in the twilight zone.

[AirBonner]

Kobe was a sidekick. MJ and LeBron were never sidekicks

[97 bulls]

This is such dumb statement that has no context. Gasol was a better 2nd option than any 2nd option Hakeem had when he won back to back, including Drexler who was no longer in his prime.

I don't see why this even matters. You want to have a discussion about help? Simply see how well the team faired when their best players missed a significant amount of time. It's not rocket science

[ShawkFactory]

either Kobe > MJ

or

Kobe's winning without Pippen means that Pippen wasn't that good and his "passing" and "defense" was easily replaceable...

indeed, the bulls didn't need pippen to have the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat and worse defenses than their ECF and Finals opponents (91' Pistons, 91' Lakers, 92' Knicks, 92' Blazers, 93' Knicks)

Lol so Kobe winning on a team that didn’t include Pippen means that Pippen wasn’t good OR that he’s better than MJ?

This is truly one of the more nonsensical arguments you’ve ever made :lol

[RRR3]

Man you said it. And shouts to RRR3 for saying this cause he was SPOT ON.
I have to admit I didn’t develop the theory myself it was first theorized by kunivadamighty who was extremely prescient as it turns out. He’s also slipped up and said stuff like this before and I generally have a good memory for such amusing things.

It makes sense. MJ is by far the best player to use if you want to make LeBron look bad. You can’t really do it with anyone else unless you twist yourself into logic pretzels.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I have to admit I didn’t develop the theory myself it was first theorized by kunivadamighty who was extremely prescient as it turns out. He’s also slipped up and said stuff like this before and I generally have a good memory for such amusing things.

It makes sense. MJ is by far the best player to use if you want to make LeBron look bad. You can’t really do it with anyone else unless you twist yourself into logic pretzels.

Talking about developing theories about some loser on a message board :oldlol:

And they're not even correct. This is a pro Jordan thread you morons

[ImKobe]

It doesn't matter. Kobe and MJ are the two GOATs and there's a huge gap between the rest. They're one of the few two that carried their teams where there was a 9-10+ ppg gap between them & the next guy for an entire title run and they were also the best playmakers & defensive players on their squads and didn't need loaded teams to win on a consistent basis.


Steve Nash has more mvps than Kobe

MVP is just a RS award that's not given out to the best player in most seasons, so who cares? AI, Rose and Westbrick have mvps too.

If we're talking about GOATs it's all about winning in the POs. No one cares about stats in losses or playing in the weakest Conference in NBA history.

[ShawkFactory]

It doesn't matter. Kobe and MJ are the two GOATs and there's a huge gap between the rest. They're one of the few two that carried their teams where there was a 9-10+ ppg gap between them & the next guy for an entire title run and they were also the best playmakers & defensive players on their squads and didn't need loaded teams to win on a consistent basis.



MVP is just a RS award that's not given out to the best player in most seasons, so who cares? AI, Rose and Westbrick have mvps too.

If we're talking about GOATs it's all about winning in the POs. No one cares about stats in losses or playing in the weakest Conference in NBA history.

I love Kobe, don’t get me wrong. But you’ve had a few too many drinks.

[RRR3]

I love Kobe, don’t get me wrong. But you’ve had a few too many drinks.
I doubt it, he's just incredibly stupid.

[ImKobe]

I love Kobe, don’t get me wrong. But you’ve had a few too many drinks.

KB beat the most 50+ win teams and went to the Finals 7x in one of the most competitive eras in WC history and dominated the Spurs 4 out of 5 times in the 2000s. All bs aside that's a very strong argument if you had to make a case for him. Making 3x straight Finals with Pau (a 1x All-Star who had not won a single Playoff game as the man in 12 tries in Memphis) is an ATG feat as well.

[1987_Lakers]

KB beat the most 50+ win teams and went to the Finals 7x in one of the most competitive eras in WC history and dominated the Spurs 4 out of 5 times in the 2000s.

While having Shaq as a teammate for alot of those wins.

What Western conference powerhouse did he beat without Shaq? The 2009 Nuggets? 2010 Suns? LOL. I guess you can name the Spurs in 2008, that's about it.

[1987_Lakers]

Making 3x straight Finals with Pau (a 1x All-Star who had not won a single Playoff game as the man in 12 tries in Memphis) is an ATG feat as well.

There was no team in the West more talented than the Lakers when we won back to back titles in 2009 & 2010.

Lol at this idiot trying to make it look like it was a carry job. Gasol was the best 2nd option in the NBA at the time.

[ShawkFactory]

KB beat the most 50+ win teams and went to the Finals 7x in one of the most competitive eras in WC history and dominated the Spurs 4 out of 5 times in the 2000s. All bs aside that's a very strong argument if you had to make a case for him. Making 3x straight Finals with Pau (a 1x All-Star who had not won a single Playoff game as the man in 12 tries in Memphis) is an ATG feat as well.

I know all of these copy/pasted facts you post. It’s bizarre that you think you’re making a good point and will change anyone’s mind with that.

Of all those things, the “most 50 win teams beaten” argument is the funniest to me. It’s an ESPN number created by people whose job it is the find random numbers to have something interesting to say.

“So and so is the first person to have 42/12/10 on at least 50% shooting against the Pacers in the month of January...ever”.

He’s a great player but that fact is a product of circumstance and it’s not something to bring up when trying to make the argument that’s he’s greater than Kareem.

[ImKobe]

While having Shaq as a teammate for alot of those wins.

What Western conference powerhouse did he beat without Shaq? The 2009 Nuggets? 2010 Suns? LOL. I guess you can name the Spurs in 2008, that's about it.


Spurs, Jazz & Nuggets were loaded in the 08-10 stretch. 2010 OKC was an 8th seed and won as many games as the Celtics team that made the Finals. 2010 Suns were a legitimate title contender. West had 8-10 good teams in those seasons while the East had maybe 4 teams at best. Making 3 straight Finals in a Conference that's as deep as the WC was is an impressive feat. There were no superteams so all these guys were on even ground.

[RRR3]

Saying there's a huge gap between Kobe and everyone besides Jordan should get you permabanned.

[1987_Lakers]

Spurs, Jazz & Nuggets were loaded in the 08-10 stretch.

Ah yes, we all know the Jazz with Carlos Boozer as their leading scorer will go down as a historic & highly talked about Western Conference team in the Kobe era. :lol

[ShawkFactory]

Ah yes, we all know the Jazz with Carlos Boozer as their leading scorer will go down as a historic & highly talked about Western Conference team in the Kobe era. :lol

They were a good team. But we’ll queue his spouting off of that roster and then believe that by simply being named that Ronnie Brewer contributed to their loaded-ness.

[ImKobe]

I know all of these copy/pasted facts you post. It’s bizarre that you think you’re making a good point and will change anyone’s mind with that.

Of all those things, the “most 50 win teams beaten” argument is the funniest to me. It’s an ESPN number created by people whose job it is the find random numbers to have something interesting to say.

“So and so is the first person to have 42/12/10 on at least 50% shooting against the Pacers in the month of January...ever”.

He’s a great player but that fact is a product of circumstance and it’s not something to bring up when trying to make the argument that’s he’s greater than Kareem.

It matters because it shows the strength of their competition throughout their careers. KB beat the most 50+ win teams and also went 23 - 14 in the Finals. Bran played in 10 Finals yet only won 22 games and has a 22 - 33 record in the Finals. Magic has a losing record (24 - 26) in the Finals as well. That's a product of playing in a weak Conference & losing to the actual title contenders on the big stage.

[ShawkFactory]

It matters because it shows the strength of their competition throughout their careers. KB beat the most 50+ win teams and also went 23 - 14 in the Finals. Bran played in 10 Finals yet only won 22 games and has a 22 - 33 record in the Finals. Magic has a losing record (24 - 26) in the Finals as well. That's a product of playing in a weak Conference & losing to the actual title contenders on the big stage.

Not really. But using this metric you’re implying that, in the playoffs, beating a 52 win team is a huge feat while beating a 49 win team who was missing their best player for 12 games isn’t.

Surely you can understand the concept of arbitrary bullshit.

[ImKobe]

Saying there's a huge gap between Kobe and everyone besides Jordan should get you permabanned.

There is when it comes to winning. Obviously Russell is in a tier of his own and I don't think it's fair comparing his era & the team he played on to modern standards and Duncan wasn't great enough on offense & had multiple ATGs carrying him at different times to be in that convo IMO. Kareem has a legitimate case I guess but he did have Oscar & Magic and played in a weak Conference for the most part but he's obviously top 3-5 all-time on anyone's list.

If we're looking at the modern era then KB, MJ & MAYBE Duncan are in a tier of their own when it comes to the POs. Curry needs to get a 5th to be in that group.

[ImKobe]

Not really. But using this metric you’re implying that, in the playoffs, beating a 52 win team is a huge feat while beating a 49 win team who was missing their best player for 12 games isn’t.

Surely you can understand the concept of arbitrary bullshit.

It's only arbitrary bullshit when we're arguing in favor of KB, right?

Facts are facts. KB played in a really tough Conference for most of his career. And there is a huge difference between 49 & 52 wins, especially when you look at the late 2000s. 50 wins got you the 8th seed in 2008 and 2010 out West while sub -.500 teams often made the POs out East.

[John8204]

I think Kobe would beat Jordan one on one and we do gloss over a lot of issues with Jordan's run (the rule changes, the pippen contract, the shady officials) but Kobe didn't accomplish what Jordan did

[ShawkFactory]

It's only arbitrary bullshit when we're arguing in favor of KB, right?

Facts are facts. KB played in a really tough Conference for most of his career. And there is a huge difference between 49 & 52 wins, especially when you look at the late 2000s. 50 wins got you the 8th seed in 2008 and 2010 out West while sub -.500 teams often made the POs out East.

No, it’s arbitrary bullshit because..it is.

Something simply being a fact doesn’t make it a good argument. Lots of facts exist. It’s a fact that I love Thai food but I’m not going to argue that it makes me a good salesman.

[ImKobe]

No, it’s arbitrary bullshit because..it is.

Something simply being a fact doesn’t make it a good argument. Lots of facts exist. It’s a fact that I love Thai food but I’m not going to argue that it makes me a good salesman.

KB faced better teams on average. The stat is not perfect but it does show you that he consistently had to beat better RS teams en route to the Finals. He beat 11 50+ win teams just from 08-10 while Bran beat 10 his entire career after making 10 Finals & Magic only had 13 wins against 50+ win teams as well. You can't tell me that's just arbitrary & that Magic actually faced better competition out West or that Bran's EC competition was just as good in all those seasons, right?

Even if you don't like the stat itself it's a fact that the Western Conference was consistently deeper & more talented than the East during KB's and Bran's primes, which is why there's such a huge difference in the amount of 50+ win teams that they beat despite Bran having more Finals runs.

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/c_limit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_700/MTgwMTMyODI1Njk5NDYwNDQw/michael-jordan-vs-kobe-bryant-vs-lebron-james-who-beat-more-60-win-and-50-win-teams-in-the-nba-playoffs.webp

MJ's Playoff track record holds up the best & it's no surprise because he's the GOAT. Bran obviously played in more shortened seasons but even if you counted those teams he'd still be short of Kobe & MJ despite playing more games.

[ShawkFactory]

KB faced better teams on average. The stat is not perfect but it does show you that he consistently had to beat better RS teams en route to the Finals. He beat 11 50+ win teams just from 08-10 while Bran beat 10 his entire career after making 10 Finals... You can't tell me that's just arbitrary & that Magic actually faced better competition out West or that Bran's EC competition was just as good in all those seasons, right?

Even if you don't like the stat itself it's a fact that the Western Conference was consistently deeper & more talented than the East during KB's and Bran's primes, which is why there's such a huge difference in the amount of 50+ win teams that they beat despite Bran having more Finals runs.

https://fadeawayworld.net/.image/c_limit%2Ccs_srgb%2Cq_auto:good%2Cw_700/MTgwMTMyODI1Njk5NDYwNDQw/michael-jordan-vs-kobe-bryant-vs-lebron-james-who-beat-more-60-win-and-50-win-teams-in-the-nba-playoffs.webp

MJ's Playoff track record holds up the best & it's no surprise because he's the GOAT. Bran obviously played in more shortened seasons but even if you counted those teams he'd still be short of Kobe & MJ despite playing more games.

Why are you arguing Kobe vs Lebron right now?

That’s not the discussion.

[ImKobe]

Why are you arguing Kobe vs Lebron right now?

That’s not the discussion.

Just showing you how KB and MJ stack up against Bran (the supposed GOAT in these modern times) in the POs. There's an obvious gap in their competition so if Bran stans want to use the Finals or stats argument they also have to admit that he played worse teams in his own Conference which helped him pile up those numbers and have as many deep runs as he did & he also jumped ship multiple times to create superteams. All of that matters.

I'm not going to go with OP and argue for Kobe over MJ because there's too many arguments against this. MJ was the original version and was more dominant in his era. The only argument for KB would be that he played in a tougher defensive era and beat better teams than MJ did on average, but Jordan's undefeated Finals record and the consistency & durability with him is just too much to overcome.

[RRR3]

Why are you arguing Kobe vs Lebron right now?

That’s not the discussion.
:lol

[Phoenix]

https://i.postimg.cc/HLPJdt1m/3nutball3.gif

[beau_boy04]

Kobe is and was great, he was the best thing ever happening to the NBA besides Jordan.

Kobe was an all-time great and he wasn't Jordan.

[Yeezy]

by regular metrics jordan is the goat

by lebron/jordan back and forth metrics kobe is the goat

[zeerghit]

:roll::roll:
this shitshow is amazing, nevern seen so much delusional guys in one place

[PeroAntic]

op was gaslighting everyone all these years with his MJ crusade. We see now what was his elaborate plan.

Were in the endgame now.

[Yeezy]

op was gaslighting everyone all these years with his MJ crusade. We see now what was his elaborate plan.

Were in the endgame now.

hes just trolling you with your own metrics

[Hey Yo]

KB faced better teams on average. The stat is not perfect but it does show you that he consistently had to beat better RS teams en route to the Finals. He beat 11 50+ win teams just from 08-10

The facts ^^^^^

You can only use from 08 and on because that's when he led LA to their first series win against a 50+ win team as first option on offense.

[Ryoka Narusawa]

Kobe had way more help than Jordan ever did.

Are you familiar with Shaquille O'Neal?

:roll::roll:

[ImKobe]

The facts ^^^^^

You can only use from 08 and on because that's when he led LA to their first series win against a 50+ win team as first option on offense.

Yes, because he was never the 1st option in any series he played with Shaq? Shaq wasn't the #1 option in half of those series in the early 2000s and KB was the leading playmaker & closer so you can't just take that all away from him while giving Shaq, Duncan, Magic & Kareem 100% of the credit for their rings.


:roll::roll:

Shaq's obviously better than anyone MJ played with but the Bulls had multiple stars on their teams and had great depth. Lakers were top heavy.

[Overdrive]

Yes, because he was never the 1st option in any series he played with Shaq? Shaq wasn't the #1 option in half of those series in the early 2000s and KB was the leading playmaker & closer so you can't just take that all away from him while giving Duncan, Magic & Kareem 100% of the credit for their rings.


Kobe was the first option in the 2004 finals. That's it.

[Hey Yo]

Kobe was the first option in the 2004 finals. That's it.

Which led to the biggest upset in Finals history.

[StrongLurk]

Kobe cannot compete with Jordan.

There is nothing more sad than hardcore Kobe stans trying to latch on to MJ and act like they were close. Kobe stans need to avoid trying to debate with Jordan/Lebron/Kareem and stick with debating Kobe vs Magic, Duncan, etc.

[Yeezy]

Which led to the biggest upset in Finals history.

1. had the lakers won shaq gets paid and kobe leaves so the lakers lose 2 future titles and without a wade to carry an older shaq they go absolutely nowhere. so in hindsight it was the best thing for the lakers and kobe going forward

2. gary payton shit the bed and malone got hurt. shaq was already well above his season average and because of that or bickering with kobe he didn't even try going for offensive rebounds and stayed on the weak side every time kobe had the ball. they left kobe to go 1 on 5 every time. it was a complete sabotage on both sides. shaq and the other lakers admitted to this and it was going on for a while.

3. the pistons were a much better team all around. the lakers were mostly trash with 2 great players and 2 washed up ones.

4. larry brown admitted he let shaq get his and focussed on stopping kobe and others

5. the pistons picked up their defense full court a lot of the time which forced kobe to try and go late in the clock with bad looks cause they had no time to get into their offense ( kobe and shaq talked about it in their 1 on 1 interview )

6. you also have to cut kobe some slack due to dealing with the court drama all year. that plus recovering from shoulder and knee surgery




overall it was a necessary evil. it literally made kobes legacy. it allowed him to have a hakeem olajuwon type career without shaq


shaq without kobe was basically clyde drexler

[Yeezy]

Kobe cannot compete with Jordan.

There is nothing more sad than hardcore Kobe stans trying to latch on to MJ and act like they were close. Kobe stans need to avoid trying to debate with Jordan/Lebron/Kareem and stick with debating Kobe vs Magic, Duncan, etc.

jordans the goat. kobes better in a vacuum/1 on 1


kobes only the goat in terms of getting the most done with the least amount of help. his 3 finals and 2 titles with a sidekick that was just a 1 time allstar in 7 years before getting to LA and 0-12 in the playoffs as lead dog was basically the minimum amount of help you could have for a title team. after that it was a scrub supporting cast that all left the nba a year or 2 later

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/72/70/44/727044355e454aa8ce994669424d3615.jpg

[1987_Lakers]

It matters because it shows the strength of their competition throughout their careers. KB beat the most 50+ win teams and also went 23 - 14 in the Finals. Bran played in 10 Finals yet only won 22 games and has a 22 - 33 record in the Finals. Magic has a losing record (24 - 26) in the Finals as well. That's a product of playing in a weak Conference & losing to the actual title contenders on the big stage.

Imagine shitting on a 24-26 Finals record when that same player has 5 rings.

[davidkimchi]

Just curious where do you guys rank Jeremy Lin on GOAT list

[Yeezy]

Imagine shitting on a 24-26 Finals record when that same player has 5 rings.

1988. should be 4 rings and 1 more L, 1 less W, 4 for 9


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSHGG0sGUOc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk9qGUSGrIU

[1987_Lakers]

1988. should be 4 rings and 1 more L, 1 less W, 4 for 9


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSHGG0sGUOc

Foul IMO, he jumped into Kareem's body when he went up. Laimbeer wasn't even mad about the call.

[Yeezy]

Foul IMO, he jumped into Kareem's body when he went up. Laimbeer wasn't even mad about the call.

not even remotely close to a foul for the era/a finals series play at the end. if thats a foul then what do you call magic body checking isiah thomas into the ground at the end of game 7

:roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

1988. should be 4 rings and 1 more L, 1 less W, 4 for 9


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSHGG0sGUOc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk9qGUSGrIU
2002 WCF is even worse. They also got several calls in Game 7 against the Blazers. I will say though, for all the focus people put on the foul on Kareem, the ending to Game 7 is MUCH worse imo. I can’t believe that shit actually happened :lol

[1987_Lakers]

not even remotely close to a foul for the era/a finals series play at the end. if thats a foul then what do you call magic body checking isiah thomas into the ground at the end of game 7

:roll:

Meh, you could call it a weak foul if you want and I won't even argue with you, it was subtle, but it was there.

[StrongLurk]

jordans the goat. kobes better in a vacuum/1 on 1


kobes only the goat in terms of getting the most done with the least amount of help. his 3 finals and 2 titles with a sidekick that was just a 1 time allstar in 7 years before getting to LA and 0-12 in the playoffs as lead dog was basically the minimum amount of help you could have for a title team. after that it was a scrub supporting cast that all left the nba a year or 2 later

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/72/70/44/727044355e454aa8ce994669424d3615.jpg

This is what I mean. Shit is just sad. "Kobe is better in a vaccum"...no he isn't at all. Kobe scored worse and defended worse than MJ, it's not a debate.

[Yeezy]

2002 WCF is even worse. They also got several calls in Game 7 against the Blazers. I will say though, for all the focus people put on the foul on Kareem, the ending to Game 7 is MUCH worse imo. I can’t believe that shit actually happened :lol

the kings shot more free throws for the series and had just as much of a lopsided advantage the game before shooting 33 fta's to the lakers 22 in game 5, 35 for the kings to 15 for LA in game 3, 38 for the kings to 25 for the lakers in game 2


then in game 7 the kings just blew it shooting 16 for 30 from the line and 2 for 20 from three... they shit the bed. the series was rigged to go 7 games i will admit due to the nets finals matchup predicting to lose money. the nba had to extend the playoffs. they do it all the time

[SouBeachTalents]

This is what I mean. Shit is just sad. "Kobe is better in a vaccum"...no he isn't at all. Kobe scored worse and defended worse than MJ, it's not a debate.
Jordan averaged 41 for an entire Finals series, Kobe never scored 41 in a single Finals game. These guys were TIERS apart as players.

[1987_Lakers]

the ending to Game 7 is MUCH worse imo. I can’t believe that shit actually happened :lol

It was pretty chaotic, lakers bench & camera guys on the court before the game was even over, Magic bumping Isiah. :lol

[Yeezy]

This is what I mean. Shit is just sad. "Kobe is better in a vaccum"...no he isn't at all. Kobe scored worse and defended worse than MJ, it's not a debate.

kobes fg% was lower because he was taking infinitely more difficult shots from farther out. he was knocking them down at the same point per shot rate as jordan up till his achilles injury. you can't just go by stats when comparing guys otherwise you would think dwight howard was a better shooter than kobe

jordan had nice moves/shots from 18 feet out. kobe had them after crossing half court


as for defense jordans slightly better sure but kobes got just as many 1st team awards on that end and basically taught an entire generation about the importance of committing to defense. lebron produced a movie about it. you should check it out

[SouBeachTalents]

the kings shot more free throws for the series and had just as much of a lopsided advantage the game before shooting 33 fta's to the lakers 22 in game 5, 35 for the kings to 15 for LA in game 3, 38 for the kings to 25 for the lakers in game 2


then in game 7 the kings just blew it shooting 16 for 30 from the line and 2 for 20 from three... they shit the bed. the series was rigged to go 7 games i will admit due to the nets finals matchup predicting to lose money. the nba had to extend the playoffs. they do it all the time
You literally can’t concede a single negative thing about Kobe. The fact you can’t just admit he played like shit in the ‘04 Finals, or that Game 6 against the Kings was arguably the shadiest officiating ever just proves you make an excuse for EVERY single knock against Kobe :lol You’re no better than LeBron fans who legitimately try to blame on Wade for 2011.

[Phoenix]

kobes fg% was lower because he was taking infinitely more difficult shots from farther out.

And why is that?

[Yeezy]

Jordan averaged 41 for an entire Finals series, Kobe never scored 41 in a single Finals game. These guys were TIERS apart as players.

jordans dominance was more physical/athleticism/ref induced than skill wise early on. when jordan started playing more like kobe during the 2nd three peat he was having finals shooting near 40% each time

[SouBeachTalents]

It was pretty chaotic, lakers bench & camera guys on the court before the game was even over, Magic bumping Isiah. :lol
It’s inconceivable that happened at the end of a one score game in a GAME 7 of the Finals :lol And I feel like it almost never gets brought up.

[Yeezy]

And why is that?

because kobe wasn't bigger/stronger/faster than everyone with the refs in his back pocket like MJ

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah guys, Kobe NEVER had the refs in his pocket, like when Bibby’s face fouled Kobe’s elbow :lol I bet you can’t even admit that was a bad call.

[Phoenix]

because kobe wasn't bigger/stronger/faster than everyone with the refs in his back pocket like MJ

No. Kobe didn't have Jordan's overall athleticism but he was more than athletic enough/skilled enough to operate more in the post/high post and take less heat check 3's just for the purpose of showing he could. Kobe's field goal wasn't a product of lacking skill, accuracy or athleticism...it was shot selection( basketball IQ) or in other words, application of skills.

[Yeezy]

Yeah guys, Kobe NEVER had the refs in his pocket, like when Bibby’s nose fouled Kobe’s elbow :lol I bet you can’t even admit that was a bad call.

kobe was a villain. theres a shit ton of games where they made examples out of him. he wasn't universally loved like MJ

[Yeezy]

No. Kobe didn't have Jordan's overall athleticism but he was more than athletic enough/skilled enough to operate more in the post/high post and take less heat check 3's just for the purpose of showing he could. Kobe's field goal wasn't a product of lacking skill, accuracy or athleticism...it was shot selection( basketball IQ) or in other words, application of skills.

after 2003 kobe never had a physical advantage over anyone. it was all footwork/tricks/counters/pumpfakes/just trying to shoot over the contest. it was either do that or become a playmaker and kobe didn't have the shooters around him for that kind of offense


luckily for kobe he became the best ever at contested shot making and all that other stuff

[Hey Yo]

Shaq was the one facing double and triple teams while Kobe was getting single coverage 80% of the time.

[WhiteKyrie]

I remember honestly being scared of Kobe when MJ faced him in 98'

Everyone had seen the young kid's flashy and somewhat unprecedented moves - Jordan fans were definitely apprehensive because Kobe was kind of scary with an unpredictable repertoire - you never knew what move was coming.. Eras were colliding and it was an exciting, rare thing to see.. Kobe didn't disappoint and made everyone wonder how great he was - a 19-year old going head-to-head with prime Michael and not looking scared at all.. Meanwhile, MJ tried his best to appear that he wasn't going full bore against the hotshot kid and still scored 36 playing it cool

You don’t speak for all MJ fans, my dude. Mike dog walked Kobe in the one v one in that ASG.

[Phoenix]

after 2003 kobe never had a physical advantage over anyone. it was all footwork/tricks/counters/pumpfakes/just trying to shoot over the contest. it was either do that or become a playmaker and kobe didn't have the shooters around him for that kind of offense


luckily for kobe he became the best ever at contested shot making and all that other stuff

Sure he did. After 2003 he didn't stop being bigger than Iverson and Wade, he was always quicker/faster with a better first step than Vince and Tmac, with better flexibility and dexterity. You act like Kobe became Luka athletically.

And even before 2003, he still look alot of ill-advised shots. His shot selection was never great relative to MJs, at any point in his career.

[ShawkFactory]

jordans dominance was more physical/athleticism/ref induced than skill wise early on. when jordan started playing more like kobe during the 2nd three peat he was having finals shooting near 40% each time

If you listen to yourself you’ll realize that you’re only hurting your argument.

You’re essentially saying that once Jordan declined as a player that he was Kobe. Peak Jordan was capable of doing things on a court at the highest level that Kobe couldn’t match.

[Phoenix]

If you listen to yourself you’ll realize that you’re only hurting your argument.

You’re essentially saying that once Jordan declined as a player that he was Kobe. Peak Jordan was capable of doing things on a court at the highest level that Kobe couldn’t match.

You picked up on that too?

[Da_Realist]

It matters because it shows the strength of their competition throughout their careers. KB beat the most 50+ win teams and also went 23 - 14 in the Finals. Bran played in 10 Finals yet only won 22 games and has a 22 - 33 record in the Finals. Magic has a losing record (24 - 26) in the Finals as well. That's a product of playing in a weak Conference & losing to the actual title contenders on the big stage.

Magic has a losing Finals record (games) because the Lakers had to battle with the 80's Sixers, Celtics and Pistons (all considered among the greatest teams of all time) while getting swept twice and losing another 4-1 due to injuries that hampered the Laker's chances. Kobe's Lakers beat an ok Pacers team, a one man Sixers team, a Nets team that had no chance and Dwight Howard's Magic who also had no chance against LA's size and athleticism and then outlasted the Celtics who were really good but were better in 2008. Magic basically had to beat a 2008/2010 Celtics level team in 80, 82, 83, 84, 85, 87, 88 and 89.

And 50 wins doesn't mean elite. In most cases it just means you're a playoff level team. It's when you get closer to 60 that a team may be considered elite. The 2001-02 Nets that made it to the Finals won 52 games and no one thought they had a shot in hell against the Shaq/Kobe Lakers including themselves. The one man Sixers team won 56 the year before that. They also had no shot. Regular season win totals can be overrated. Playoffs are about matchups not regular season wins.

[Da_Realist]

jordans dominance was more physical/athleticism/ref induced than skill wise early on. when jordan started playing more like kobe during the 2nd three peat he was having finals shooting near 40% each time

I don't know what to tell you if you didn't notice the elite skills that came with all that athleticism earlier in MJ's career. The athleticism can't be denied but neither could the skill level. It was more perimeter-oriented instead of post-oriented although he put in work in the post even then. Kobe never had that phase. But luckily, MJ created the blueprint for Kobe's Hall of Fame career by redefining how guards could dominate from the post in the later part of his Bulls tenure.

[RRR3]

https://i.postimg.cc/HLPJdt1m/3nutball3.gif
:roll:

[Yeezy]

If you listen to yourself you’ll realize that you’re only hurting your argument.

You’re essentially saying that once Jordan declined as a player that he was Kobe. Peak Jordan was capable of doing things on a court at the highest level that Kobe couldn’t match.

declined physically*


which proved his early extra dominance was more due to physical advantages.

thats not him declining as a player. thats him declining physically. like shaq over time becoming less of a force inside


jordan was definitely more dominant. thats not skill based


when jordans athleticism dipped to kobes level he sure as hell wasn't dropping as many huge games as kobe was


i would say 2006 kobe and 1996 mj are about the same physically

https://i.ibb.co/NTMbwPR/Screen-Shot-2022-12-26-at-12-33-37-PM.png

https://i.ibb.co/30vPFQX/Screen-Shot-2022-12-26-at-12-33-57-PM.png

[Phoenix]

This is a Kobe 'reverse layup package'. Note that most of these were in jersey #24 meaning after 2006. The only SGs in the league at that point who would have been capable of duplicating some of these were Vince, Tmac and Wade, bearing in mind that the first two themselves from injury had lost some of their early 2000's athleticism.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BVfElUC1ZA

Look at the layup at 1:20 and let's act like there weren't but a small handful of guys in the league capable of doing that at that point, and this is the so-called 'no physical advantage' version on Kobe.

[Da_Realist]

declined physically*


which proved his early extra dominance was more due to physical advantages.

thats not him declining as a player. thats him declining physically. like shaq over time becoming less of a force inside


jordan was definitely more dominant. thats not skill based


when jordans athleticism dipped to kobes level he sure as hell wasn't dropping as many huge games as kobe was


i would say 2006 kobe and 1996 mj are about the same physically

https://i.ibb.co/NTMbwPR/Screen-Shot-2022-12-26-at-12-33-37-PM.png

https://i.ibb.co/30vPFQX/Screen-Shot-2022-12-26-at-12-33-57-PM.png

But MJ led the league in scoring three times in the late 90's to Kobe's career one. While winning three titles. Kobe put up some insane numbers but didn't lead the league while winning his two championships. So MJ's scoring skill was still remarkable enough to pull it off three times. Kobe led the league in his "eff it" year.

[Phoenix]

when jordans athleticism dipped to kobes level he sure as hell wasn't dropping as many huge games as kobe was



When Jordan's athleticism 'dipped to Kobe's level' he was 33-35. How many huge scoring game was Kobe dropping at that age ( 2011-2013)? He shotjacked for 60 on his last game, and prior to that his last one was in 2009 when he was 30/31. That also was the last time he scored above 50.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kobe-bryant-50-point-games-box-score

[Yeezy]

This is a Kobe 'reverse layup package'. Note that most of these were in jersey #24 meaning after 2006. The only SGs in the league at that point who would have been capable of duplicating some of these were Vince, Tmac and Wade, bearing in mind that the first two themselves from injury had lost some of their early 2000's athleticism.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BVfElUC1ZA

Look at the layup at 1:20 and let's act like there weren't but a small handful of guys in the league capable of doing that at that point, and this is the so-called 'no physical advantage' version on Kobe.

kobe never gets his head above the bottom of the mesh wearing #24 lol

barely does as #8. was never a head/rim level dunker. all his stuff was mostly nice because he had no fear and risked injury driving through people

[Yeezy]

When Jordan's athleticism 'dipped to Kobe's level' he was 33-35. How many huge scoring game was Kobe dropping at that age ( 2011-2013)? He shotjacked for 60 on his last game, and prior to that his last one was in 2009 when he was 30/31. That also was the last time he scored above 50.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kobe-bryant-50-point-games-box-score

age is irrelevant. kobes body broke down in 2003 during the playoffs. was never the same after

[Phoenix]

kobe never gets his head above the bottom of the mesh wearing #24 lol

barely does as #8. was never a head/rim level dunker. all his stuff was mostly nice because he had no fear and risked injury driving through people

Since when has vertical height been the sole determining factor in those kinds of layups? You aren't doing any of that without all-world body control and flexibility. Again, who among Kobe's SG rivals is pulling any of that asides from a healthy TMac, Vince and Wade?

[Yeezy]

Since when has vertical height been the sole determining factor in those kinds of layups? You aren't doing any of that without all-world body control and flexibility. Again, who among Kobe's SG rivals is pulling any of that asides from a healthy TMac, Vince and Wade?

kobes layups were more based on body control/balance/angles/skill than athleticism

[Phoenix]

age is irrelevant. kobes body broke down in 2003 during the playoffs. was never the same after

But was still pulling off layup shit after 2003( and he wore 24 from 2007) that only Vince/Tmac/Wade could match when healthy.

[Phoenix]

kobes layups were more based on body control/balance/angles/skill than athleticism

And you're arguing with a straight face that body control and balance aren't athletic-based?

[Yeezy]

And you're arguing with a straight face that body control and balance aren't athletic-based?

anyone can train to get body control/balance. its not some god given thing... being able to jump from the free throw line and palm a ball like its a softball is

[Phoenix]

Hell, the layup Kobe pulled at 2:20 where he takes one dribble so no build up of momentum, jumps off one foot on the left side of the basket with no gather and ends up on the other side of the rim.....we're really saying this is 'eh whatever' athleticism?!

[Phoenix]

anyone can train to get body control/balance. its not some god given thing... being able to jump from the free throw line and palm a ball like its a softball is

No you can't, or more could and would. That's innate athleticism.

[RRR3]

Kenny makes 3ball look like the GOAT poster

[AlternativeAcc.]

No you can't, or more could and would. That's innate athleiicism.

On the contrary things like vertical jump are much more easy to train.

There's dudes on youtube who have literally gained like 30 inches of vertical leaning ability through specific training.

This yeezy freak has literally never been right about anything ever.

[Phoenix]

On the contrary things like vertical jump are much more easy to train.

There's dudes on youtube who have literally gained like 30 inches of vertical leaning ability through specific training.

This yeezy freak has literally never been right about anything ever.

Exactly, how many vertical programs have we seen over the years with the basic marketing of 'we'll have you kissing the rim in 30 days!'.

[ShawkFactory]

declined physically*


which proved his early extra dominance was more due to physical advantages.

thats not him declining as a player. thats him declining physically. like shaq over time becoming less of a force inside


jordan was definitely more dominant. thats not skill based


when jordans athleticism dipped to kobes level he sure as hell wasn't dropping as many huge games as kobe was


i would say 2006 kobe and 1996 mj are about the same physically

https://i.ibb.co/NTMbwPR/Screen-Shot-2022-12-26-at-12-33-37-PM.png

https://i.ibb.co/30vPFQX/Screen-Shot-2022-12-26-at-12-33-57-PM.png

So when you say “in a vacuum” you mean not considering someone’s physicality. I know you’ll do whatever it takes to make him the top. But that’s not how it works.

As for the bolded..yea. Jordan was on 70 win teams and wasn’t taking 35-40 shots a game.

[StrongLurk]

This yeezy poster sucks at making a good argument for Kobe over Jordan.

Take my advice earlier and stick to comparing Kobe to other all time greats.

[Yeezy]

No you can't, or more could and would. That's innate athleticism.

wrong. there's plenty of guys that come into the nba awkward looking movements just trying to jump over people them become refined over time with better footwork and body control

lebrons one of them. he used to have 2 left feed and traveled nonstop

giannis is another. he isn't committing charges nearly as much



if you think kobes reverse layups are God given you've obviously never played basketball

[Yeezy]

This yeezy poster sucks at making a good argument for Kobe over Jordan.

Take my advice earlier and stick to comparing Kobe to other all time greats.

jordan literally said kobe would beat him 1 on 1. but here's the most damning thing I can think of saying


you can make a highlight video of kobe doing Jordan's best moves

you can't make a video of jordan doing kobes best moves


try recreating this video using jordan highlights


https://youtu.be/BBUGUHSKhsw

you cant

[StrongLurk]

jordan literally said kobe would beat him 1 on 1. but here's the most damning thing I can think of saying


you can make a highlight video of kobe doing Jordan's best moves

you can't make a video of jordan doing kobes best moves

Jordan didn't say that.

Also the bolded is so dumb and the classic Kobe stan logic used to prop up Kobe over anyone. It's always some really random or vague explanation for how Kobe is better than Jordan instead of focusing on the actual play and production on the NBA court. Kobe couldn't do PLENTY of moves that Jordan did. It's just so dumb to be like "Jordan didn't do these specific moves Kobe did".

I'm done responding to this guy :roll:

[Yeezy]

Jordan didn't say that.

Also the bolded is so dumb and the classic Kobe stan logic used to prop up Kobe over anyone. It's always some really random or vague explanation for how Kobe is better than Jordan instead of focusing on the actual play and production on the NBA court. Kobe couldn't do PLENTY of moves that Jordan did.

it's actually the most damning thing that in fact puts kobe over jordan because kobe has hundreds of moves/plays Jordan's never come close to doing


kobe did basically everything jordan did. there's videos of it with side by side comparisons

kobe pulled off mj.. mj never pulled off kobe. and yes I know he never had a chance to.. but that's the point. kobe took what jordan did and went to another level

[Yeezy]

kobe has hours worth of highlights jordan never did. all jordan has is a free throw dunk and a cradle that he ripped off 2 other guys anyway

:lol

[Yeezy]

.

I'm done responding to this guy :roll:

you're done kid. you got that right at least

[Phoenix]

wrong. there's plenty of guys that come into the nba awkward looking movements just trying to jump over people them become refined over time with better footwork and body control

lebrons one of them. he used to have 2 left feed and traveled nonstop

giannis is another. he isn't committing charges nearly as much


if you think kobes reverse layups are God given you've obviously never played basketball

Lebron was more fluid in terms of body control between 2005 and 2013 at the very peak of his athleticism.

Giannis doesn't charge as much because his skills have improved from the early part of his career, and isn't just trying to overpower his way to the rim( even though he obviously still can and does)

Yes footwork is something you work on and doesn't 'require' elite athleticism( no better example of this than Luka right now) but nobody was arguing that was tied to athleticism. The body control we saw on some of those Kobe layups are very much rooted in athleticism. Again, the layup at 2:20, you don't just 'learn' to one dribble into one foot no gather take off with the explosion to start on one side of the rim and end up on the other side. That's athleticism dumbass, 'god given' or whatever the fukk you wanna call it. Kobe didn't have elite 40+" vertical but he was still a versatile jumper who could go off one or both feet, including going off on the wrong foot. You don't 'learn' that.

As for the bolded Just about everything you say about basketball in general leads me to the same conclusion about you. And not just playing basketball, but any sport. There's one thing bantering back and forth with 3ball, but I can actually feel my IQ drop reading your posts.

[Phoenix]

kobe did basically everything jordan did. there's videos of it with side by side comparisons

kobe pulled off mj.. mj never pulled off kobe. and yes I know he never had a chance to.. but that's the point. kobe took what jordan did and went to another level

Even if this were true, since you base so much of MJ's moves on athleticism Kobe isn't going to be able to replicate it without some level of elite athleticism, unless you're arguing that Kobe was using 'skill' to do 'athletic' based moves. Which, given its you, is very much in bounds for the kind of thing you'd argue.

Even the 'MJ never pulled off Kobe' point is stupid. Kobe came after MJ. What do you think would happen if MJ came after Kobe and had the basis of Kobe's game as a template, and then added superior athleticism on top? You're the dumbest muthafukker on this board, and that's saying something.

[Ne 1]

Shaq was the one facing double and triple teams while Kobe was getting single coverage 80% of the time.

Not true. Kobe's production was legit and the one benefit he had from playing with Shaq aside from winning was that he wasn't the primary focus of the defense, but this is the most important part, and anyone who watched those teams knows this....

Teams weren't playing off of Kobe to double Shaq, the double teams came from the other positions more often than not. Kobe was NOT just getting spoon fed open shots, if anything, he directly created for Shaq more with his penetration. Kobe's points didn't come easily, and he provided more than just scoring.


Not to mention clutch play and defense. What other perimeter players at the time were as good as Kobe in those areas back then?

[Ne 1]

Yes, because he was never the 1st option in any series he played with Shaq? Shaq wasn't the #1 option in half of those series in the early 2000s and KB was the leading playmaker & closer so you can't just take that all away from him while giving Shaq, Duncan, Magic & Kareem 100% of the credit for their rings.



Shaq's obviously better than anyone MJ played with but the Bulls had multiple stars on their teams and had great depth. Lakers were top heavy.

As great as Kobe was, it's revisionist history to suggest he was the first option during the 3peat. However, in 2001 and 2002, he had the load of a first option. I'd consider him a top 5 player in 2001 and 2002 regardless, and better than anyone not named Shaq in the 2001 and 2002 playoffs.

Kobe's production was on par with first options in the 2001 and 2002 championship seasons, so I don't think it's fair to just write those off and omit them as "second option rings.” The Lakers didn't have a legit 3rd scorer, so despite Shaq scoring more than many other players in championship years, Kobe also scored more and did more than many other first options.

Another interesting point that isn't often examined...Kobe was generally "plan B" for scoring throughout the game. However in the 4th quarter, Kobe often became "plan A" and sometimes, "plan AA" when Phil had to sit Shaq because of hack-a-Shaq. In the history of the game, how often were guys who were just riding the coattails of another star player asked to take over so consistently?

[Ne 1]

As great as Kobe was, it's revisionist history to suggest he was the first option during the 3peat. However, in 2001 and 2002, he had the load of a first option. I'd consider him a top 5 player in 2001 and 2002 regardless, and better than anyone not named Shaq in the 2001 and 2002 playoffs.

Kobe's production was on par with first options in the 2001 and 2002 championship seasons, so I don't think it's fair to just write those off and omit them as "second option rings.” The Lakers didn't have a legit 3rd scorer, so despite Shaq scoring more than many other players in championship years, Kobe also scored more and did more than many other first options.

Another interesting point that isn't often examined...Kobe was generally "plan B" for scoring throughout the game. However in the 4th quarter, Kobe often became "plan A" and sometimes, "plan AA" when Phil had to sit Shaq because of hack-a-Shaq. In the history of the game, how often were guys who were just riding the coattails of another star player asked to take over so consistently?

As far as each series in 2001 & 2002 goes? if there was an MVP for each series in '01 and '02 this is how it would go down...

2001:
vs. Blazers - Toss up, hard to pick.
vs. Kings - Could go with either, Shaq dominated the first two games and Kobe the last two. Shaq is better if you combine the stats I think, so you could give him the edge.
vs. Spurs - Kobe, but Shaq played well too.
vs. Sixers - Shaq

2002:
vs. Blazers - Shaq
vs. Spurs - Kobe (Shaq was injured in this series iirc which was the reason for his low offensive output, the Lakers would have lost this series if it weren't for Kobe's fourth quarter play in the last 3 games)
vs. Kings - I'll say Shaq but after watching the series it was way closer than the stats say (Kobe was just as important as Shaq in the wins, but Shaq played better than him in the losses and Kobe had some horrific shooting nights in those games they lost).
vs. Nets - Shaq, but Kobe played well too. (Kobe had one of the best Finals performance not be awarded MVP in a winning effort)

[SouBeachTalents]

As great as Kobe was, it's revisionist history to suggest he was the first option during the 3peat. However, in 2001 and 2002, he had the load of a first option. I'd consider him a top 5 player in 2001 and 2002 regardless, and better than anyone not named Shaq in the 2001 and 2002 playoffs.

Kobe's production was on par with first options in the 2001 and 2002 championship seasons, so I don't think it's fair to just write those off and omit them as "second option rings.” The Lakers didn't have a legit 3rd scorer, so despite Shaq scoring more than many other players in championship years, Kobe also scored more and did more than many other first options.

Another interesting point that isn't often examined...Kobe was generally "plan B" for scoring throughout the game. However in the 4th quarter, Kobe often became "plan A" and sometimes, "plan AA" when Phil had to sit Shaq because of hack-a-Shaq. In the history of the game, how often were guys who were just riding the coattails of another star player asked to take over so consistently?
Kobe was a LOT better in the '01 playoffs than '02. He actually played like an ATG through the first 3 round of the playoffs, then after an absolutely horrible Game 1, had a good rest of the Finals. '02 was like the opposite of that, he was pretty inefficient through the first 3 rounds, though I give him props for beating the Spurs with Shaq having his worst series of the 3peat, then had a very good Finals against the Nets.

[ImKobe]

As great as Kobe was, it's revisionist history to suggest he was the first option during the 3peat. However, in 2001 and 2002, he had the load of a first option. I'd consider him a top 5 player in 2001 and 2002 regardless, and better than anyone not named Shaq in the 2001 and 2002 playoffs.

Kobe's production was on par with first options in the 2001 and 2002 championship seasons, so I don't think it's fair to just write those off and omit them as "second option rings.” The Lakers didn't have a legit 3rd scorer, so despite Shaq scoring more than many other players in championship years, Kobe also scored more and did more than many other first options.

Another interesting point that isn't often examined...Kobe was generally "plan B" for scoring throughout the game. However in the 4th quarter, Kobe often became "plan A" and sometimes, "plan AA" when Phil had to sit Shaq because of hack-a-Shaq. In the history of the game, how often were guys who were just riding the coattails of another star player asked to take over so consistently?

He was in a lot of those games & series. He led those teams in shot attempts for the most part in '01 & '02 & he's the one who ran the offense and got Shaq the ball at the right spots. He carried as big of a load as any superstar and he was incredibly efficient in clutch situations in those years as he was top 5 in PPG and/or TS% in the RS & POs in crunch time from 00-02. You have to go through the games yourself and see how much command KB actually had of that offense. Shaq always got his numbers but he absolutely needed a closer like KB to win Playoff series. He got swept damn near every year before KB came into his own. The real Finals were played out West and that's where KB had his best series. EC teams were not built to stop Shaq so they exploited that but they're not getting past the Blazers or Spurs without KB in those seasons.

This article has a bunch of data summed up on Kobe's clutch play during the early 2000s.

https://defpen.com/myths-kobe-bryant/

[1987_Lakers]

This article has a bunch of data summed up on Kobe's clutch play during the early 2000s.

https://defpen.com/myths-kobe-bryant/

This article summed up Kobe's clutch play for his entire prime

https://www.espn.com/blog/TrueHoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

ESPN Stats and Information's Alok Pattani dug through 15 years of NBA data (see table below) -- Bryant's entire career, regular season and playoffs -- and found that Bryant has attempted 115 shots in the final 24 seconds of a game in which the Lakers were tied or trailed by two or fewer points. He connected on 36, and missed 79 times.

One shot for all the cookies. And the NBA is nearly unanimous that this is the guy to take it, even though he has more than twice as many misses as makes?

[ImKobe]

This article summed up Kobe's clutch play for his entire prime

https://www.espn.com/blog/TrueHoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

ESPN Stats and Information's Alok Pattani dug through 15 years of NBA data (see table below) -- Bryant's entire career, regular season and playoffs -- and found that Bryant has attempted 115 shots in the final 24 seconds of a game in which the Lakers were tied or trailed by two or fewer points. He connected on 36, and missed 79 times.

One shot for all the cookies. And the NBA is nearly unanimous that this is the guy to take it, even though he has more than twice as many misses as makes?

So you're reducing clutch play to the last 24 seconds and ignoring the article that uses entire 4th quarters and last 5 minutes of the game (within 5 pts) and you reduce his entire career to a 100 shots when he had thousands of attempts in actual crunch time lmao. Anyone can cherry-pick a small sample size to make their case for any player. There's no ignoring the fact that he was the one of the most efficient 4th quarter Playoff performers of the early 200s and that he was actually efficient in the last 5 minutes with the score being within 5 pts in 4th quarters in his title runs.

And scoring efficiency aside, you can also look at his AST/TO numbers in Playoff/Finals crunch time and find that he's a better playmaker and turned the ball over way less than your favorite player. You already probably knew that though.

[1987_Lakers]

Here is how Kobe performed in the biggest stage of games.

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

[ImKobe]

Yup. The mentally disabled Bran stan goes back to posting irrelevant data when he gets confronted with real facts. Have fun replying to me and not getting a single reply for another year. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

:cry:

:oldlol:

Imagine believing Finals numbers, game 7 & elimination game stats are "irrelevant"

[zeerghit]

Yup. The mentally disabled Bran stan goes back to posting irrelevant data when he gets confronted with real facts. Have fun replying to me and not getting a single reply for another year. :lol

how is this irrelevant data?

[Yeezy]

Here is how Kobe performed in the biggest stage of games.

Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.

uh oh. somebody's angry. he just bust out the old finals stats copy and paste job

get ready boys. we're in for a long night of damage control from all 500 Steve wheels alts

[Yeezy]

:oldlol:

Imagine believing Finals numbers, game 7 & elimination game stats are "irrelevant"

Jordan's 2nd 3 peat numbers weren't great either. it was the era and elevated defense. already proved this by showing a climb in fg% through the years with everyone from 96 to last year but you deleted the thread

[Axe]

Damn, can't believe this thread of 3bot really reached 10 pages when the title itself ain't surprising anymore.

[3ba11]

you're doing it wrong. Kobe literally never had a single conversation with payton/malone and neither guy was prime. they signed for the minimum


and Dwight was traded for Bynum. and the lakers traded a bunch of 1st rounders for nash who was also finished.


collusions aren't washed up old bums. they're made by prime superstars


u right - this is all true

[Full Court]

This is the guy who you said is the smartest poster on ISH? :lol

I'm confident he's trolling. He knows Kobe was merely a poor man's Jordan.

[3ba11]

So apparently Pippen was a bum. But Jordan won with a bum so he's the GOAT. But now Kobe won without a bum so that makes him more of a GOAT than the guy who won without a bum. We're officially in the twilight zone.


Colin Cowherd said that "MJ needed Pippen", so he should think that Kobe is superior because Kobe didn't need any passing or defensive help from Pippen like MJ did... Kobe won with no passing help and without a top 75 player

[3ba11]

So you believe that now because he's not entirely shackled to a specific player for his playoff success unlike jordan was? Intriguing.


the proper way to perceive MJ and Pippen is that MJ was simply good enough to win with Pippen's decade-worst passing and efficiency among 90's sidekicks - the resulting winning spotlight is why Pippen started making All-NBA in 1992 (5th season).. Compare this trajectory to 4th-year Jamal Murray from the 2020 Playoffs - Jokic wasn't good enough to win with Murray's 27/5/7 on 63% true shooting (better than Pippen ever played), so Murray wasn't elevated to media accolade thereafter like Pippen.. This is just a simple example but it applies to anyone that fails to win with Iggy-caliber help from the sidekick.

[3ba11]

Another interesting point that isn't often examined...Kobe was generally "plan B" for scoring throughout the game. However in the 4th quarter, Kobe often became "plan A" and sometimes, "plan AA" when Phil had to sit Shaq because of hack-a-Shaq. In the history of the game, how often were guys who were just riding the coattails of another star player asked to take over so consistently?





Boom

People don't realize that Kobe led the 2000 Playoffs in clutch scoring (last 5 within 5) and set the record in the Finals (8.0 ppg), so this shows how much it was Kobe-time in the 4th, while Shaq was a supplementary player and often purposely hidden

The triangle has zero rings without Kobe or his mentor MJ

[SouBeachTalents]

Boom

People don't realize that Kobe led the 2000 Playoffs in clutch scoring (last 5 within 5) and set the record in the Finals (8.0 ppg), so this shows how much it was Kobe-time in the 4th, while Shaq was a supplementary player and often purposely hidden

The triangle has zero rings without Kobe or his mentor MJ
It has a ring with Shaq outscoring Kobe 38-16 in the Finals. Then outscoring him by nearly double digits in the next two.

[Axe]

the proper way to perceive MJ and Pippen is that MJ was simply good enough to win with Pippen's decade-worst passing and efficiency among 90's sidekicks - the resulting winning spotlight is why Pippen started making All-NBA in 1992 (5th season).. Compare this trajectory to 4th-year Jamal Murray from the 2020 Playoffs - Jokic wasn't good enough to win with Murray's 27/5/7 on 63% true shooting (better than Pippen ever played), so Murray wasn't elevated to media accolade thereafter like Pippen.. This is just a simple example but it applies to anyone that fails to win with Iggy-caliber help from the sidekick.
So in short, the 90s were really a watered-down era to begin with. Interesting.

[WhiteKyrie]

jordan literally said kobe would beat him 1 on 1. but here's the most damning thing I can think of saying


you can make a highlight video of kobe doing Jordan's best moves

you can't make a video of jordan doing kobes best moves


try recreating this video using jordan highlights


https://youtu.be/BBUGUHSKhsw

you cant

No what he really said was a back handed compliment, saying the only person that could possibly beat him in a game of one on one was Kobe. Why? He said because he steals all his moves. As if he’s playing a version of himself. It was complimentary to Kobe but essentially saying only a clone type of himself could beat him in one on one. He didn’t say Kobe was better than himself, numb nuts.

[Chick Stern]

Jordan’s success came during the weakest NBA era

[Axe]

Jordan’s success came during the weakest NBA era
:lebronamazed:

[AirBonner]

Op does make a point kobe led in assists while facing maximum defensive attention while not benefiting from a defensive high assist sidekick

[90sgoat]

3ball played the long game.

Years and years of MJ posting only to set up the last minute Kobe switch.

[Round Mound]

Kobe played with the best passing big man of his era in Pau Gasol.

[Yeezy]

Kobe played with the best passing big man of his era in Pau Gasol.

wasn't pau a 1 time reserve allstar with a 0-12 playoff record in 7 years before joining kobe


kobe saved gasols career. all he needed was any 18/19ppg sidekick to win back to back titles

[1987_Lakers]

uh oh. somebody's angry. he just bust out the old finals stats copy and paste job

get ready boys. we're in for a long night of damage control from all 500 Steve wheels alts

Those stats single handily made you meltdown & made you throw racist tantrums which got you banned in the past.

[Phoenix]

There's one point I haven't seen yet (I haven't looked through the entire thread though).

MJ won with a perimeter sidekick in an era that otherwise would have been dominated by bigs( and that's easily demonstrated by the fact that all non-Bulls titles in the 90's were won by Hakeem and Duncan/Robinson). And I'm pretty confident he blocked at least one Ewing title and I think the 96 Magic beat the Sonics had Chicago not been in the way. He didn't need a dominant interior player because he himself was the Bulls post weapon, especially in the 2nd 3peat.

Kobe, in contrast, led the 09 and 10 teams to titles as a perimeter player in a perimeter players league( post 2004 rule changes) where he had the advantage of a post scorer ( what Gasol was prior to LA is irrelevant, between 2009 and 2010 he was a top 15 level player), when the 'dominant big' as the lynchpin of a championship team was on its last days. It was basically an aging Duncan, Dwight, and Yao who couldn't stay healthy.

This thread asks the question of what MJ 'needed' to win vs Kobe as lead players, but doesn't take into account the leagues they played in, which is sadly common in too many of these conversations.

[Phoenix]

wasn't pau a 1 time reserve allstar with a 0-12 playoff record in 7 years before joining kobe


kobe saved gasols career. all he needed was any 18/19ppg sidekick to win back to back titles

Does it really matter what he was as a lead player? Pau wasn't going to 'lead' any teams to anything of note but he obviously was a top level 2nd option. You keep making that point, but what was Kobe without any kind of post presence? 2004-2007 answers that pretty definitively.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm considering putting Kobe over MJ as the GOAT...

No shit, you ****ing closet Kobe stan :lol

Haven't posted in like 4 months and this place still reeks lol. I mean, the fact you STILL get legitimate replies is mindboggling.

[Axe]

No shit, you ****ing closet Kobe stan :lol

Haven't posted in like 4 months and this place still reeks lol. I mean, the fact you STILL get legitimate replies is mindboggling.
Op's braindead disciple seems to have turned on him after this shocking revelation lmao. I tried telling him to this almost a year ago only to get snubbed insolently. :confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Op's braindead disciple seems to have turned on him after this shocking revelation lmao. I tried telling him to this almost a year ago only to get snubbed insolently. :confusedshrug:

Any "disciple" of that unhinged freak...should probably delete their account.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


I might put Kobe over MJ based on everyone's idea that MJ needed Pippen - anyone that disagrees and thinks MJ > Kobe, then they must think MJ didn't need Pippen since the inferior Kobe didn't need him.

[Axe]

Any "disciple" of that unhinged freak...should probably delete their account.
:roll:

True, true.

[3ba11]

Any "disciple" of that unhinged freak...should probably delete their account.


You guys are the ones that say MJ needed Pippen, so you must think Kobe is superior unless you actually don't think MJ needed Pippen

[Axe]

You guys are the ones that say MJ needed Pippen, so you must think Kobe is superior unless you actually don't think MJ needed Pippen
You realize now what they said? That he was 'shackled' to a specific player for his postseason success? :lebronamazed:

[3ba11]

You realize now what they said? That he was 'shackled' to a specific player for his postseason success? :lebronamazed:


The proper way to perceive MJ and Pippen is that MJ was simply good enough to win with Pippen's decade-worst passing, efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg), spacing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s), clutch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=259s), and lowest peak capability (not on scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif)) among 90's sidekicks.

The resulting winning spotlight is why Pippen started making All-NBA in 1992 (5th season).. Compare this trajectory to 4th-year Jamal Murray from the 2020 Playoffs - Jokic wasn't good enough to win with Murray's 27/5/7 on 63% true shooting (better than Pippen ever played), so Murray wasn't elevated to media accolade thereafter like Pippen.. This is just a simple example but it applies to anyone that fails to win with Iggy-caliber help from the sidekick.

[Axe]

The proper way to perceive MJ and Pippen is that MJ was simply good enough to win with Pippen's decade-worst passing, efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg), spacing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmBbmIE_Kxc&t=114s), clutch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=259s), and lowest peak capability (not on scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif)) among 90's sidekicks.

The resulting winning spotlight is why Pippen started making All-NBA in 1992 (5th season).. Compare this trajectory to 4th-year Jamal Murray from the 2020 Playoffs - Jokic wasn't good enough to win with Murray's 27/5/7 on 63% true shooting (better than Pippen ever played), so Murray wasn't elevated to media accolade thereafter like Pippen.. This is just a simple example but it applies to anyone that fails to win with Iggy-caliber help from the sidekick.
Or did he win it all because they said he won during the expansion era? :kobe:

[Shaquille O'Neal]

https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8muciMbHF1qcmnsoo1_1280.png

Kobe never colluded guys :lol

And your bullshit reasoning doesn't supersede the TREMENDOUS advantages Jordan & LeBron have over Kobe in production, accolades, advanced metrics etc.

If I didn't know better, with one eye here Nash is looking at Kobe and the other Artest. How is that possible?

Who's eyes are more bizarre - Nash or T-Mac? You can only pick one.

[Axe]

Still a shocking revelation by op. But at the same time, unsurprising as well.

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs:


Kobe is GOAT

according to Lebron fans at least

(Lebron fans say that MJ could not have won without Pippen, so since Kobe didn't need Pippen, Kobe > MJ in the eyes of Lebron fans.. And since Kobe > MJ, this means he's superior to Lebron as well since most Lebron fans put Lebron behind MJ,

[RRR3]

.
Thread Cliffs:


Kobe is GOAT

according to Lebron fans at least

(Lebron fans say that MJ could not have won without Pippen, so since Kobe didn't need Pippen, Kobe > MJ in the eyes of Lebron fans.. And since Kobe > MJ, this means he's superior to Lebron as well since most Lebron fans put Lebron behind MJ,
Yes we know you are madly in love with Kobe. No need to slobber over him again.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron didn’t need Pippen either. Hell, neither did….anybody.

Since Jordan only won with Pippen we can assume that he needed him. And since no one else did we can assume they didn’t.

Everyone > Jordan.

[sdot_thadon]

OP on his 2nd 5th of Thunderbird
This was it for me lol.

[8Ball]

.
Thread Cliffs:


Kobe is GOAT

according to Lebron fans at least

(Lebron fans say that MJ could not have won without Pippen, so since Kobe didn't need Pippen, Kobe > MJ in the eyes of Lebron fans.. And since Kobe > MJ, this means he's superior to Lebron as well since most Lebron fans put Lebron behind MJ,

Jordan is 1-9 without Pippen.