Kobe is 100% Top-10 All Time

[StrongLurk]

I shit on Kobe stans plenty of times when called for (basically whenever K-stans believe their idol is better than MJ/Lebron which is just wrong).

BUT, it's also ridiculous to claim Kobe is not in the top 10 of all time. Anyone who says this is clearly just an insecure stan of some other played or never actually watched Kobe play in his prime. He was consistently in the top 4 of the 2000's along with Shaq/Duncan/Lebron and definitely had complete claim as the best player in the league at least 2006-2008 minimum. Kobe compares extremely well in production, accolades, playoffs/finals success, and eye test with guys like Bird, Duncan, Magic, etc.

[SouBeachTalents]

He's absolutely not at all. Acting like Kobe is automatically ranked ahead of Shaq, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem etc. is ridiculous, they all have legitimate claims to be ranked higher.

Besides, this is where rankings discussions become tedious. Acting like Kobe being ranked 10th is fine but 11th an outrage is just absurd :lol

[davidkimchi]

I personally have Kobe top 10, but i dont think it is outrageous if he is put at say 11 or 12. Hes an all time great and legend for sure, but like the other person has said, you have people like Kareem, Bird, MJ, LeBron, Magic etc

[John8204]

I would say 85% top ten...Duncan, Oscar, West and Kobe are the four guys fighting for two spots (9 and 10). And look in 20 years Luka and Giannis could crack the ten and that would take him out. But as of now he's the 2nd best SG of all-time and the best player of the generation of Kobe, Duncan, Dirk, KG, and Shaq.

[Phoenix]

The thing is there are some players who are, at least for now, hard-coded into the public consciences' top 10: MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq. Fukk around with the order in whatever way you see fit. But tha'ts 8 guys right there.

Kobe is in the range of determing whether he should be ranked ( from a career POV) over guys like Duncan and Hakeem, then you have guys like Curry and Durant who I honestly feel should be over the West/Oscar/Dr.J tier by now but the NBA populace have a hard time moving past these legacy trend-setters ( and maybe there's a bit of that in names I listed; I don't know). Giannis is in the midst of his peak and already has 2 MVPs and a ring, and primed for more. He's done more than Karl Malone already as far as the metrics we use to separate the GOATs from the near-GOATs, asides from 'points' and 'longevity'. Joker has two MVPS and rightfully could be this years unless the voters get sick of him. Luka is coming. It's gonna be interesing over the next decade.

[Phoenix]

He's absolutely not at all. Acting like Kobe is automatically ranked ahead of Shaq, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem etc. is ridiculous, they all have legitimate claims to be ranked higher.

Besides, this is where rankings discussions become tedious. Acting like Kobe being ranked 10th is fine but 11th an outrage is just absurd :lol

That's it, there are people who get outright indignant at someone being ranked 11th when, 'NO ......they're 9th!!!!'. Like, there isn't 'that' much separation once you get past the Mount Rushmore guys.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Somewhat agree.

Not that I'd really argue with someone having Kobe #11, but I do struggle to keep him out of it. Kobe's career resume (not a prime or peak project) is definitely Top 10 worthy. If accoladees, honors and chips are all weighted accordingly, his career is on par with all those guys you mentioned. Kobe's career (again...not peak) is greater than someone like Hakeem.

[SouBeachTalents]

Somewhat agree.

Not that I'd really argue with someone having Kobe #11, but I do struggle to keep him out of it. Kobe's career resume (not a prime or peak project) is definitely Top 10 worthy. If accoladees, honors and chips are all weighted accordingly, his career is on par with all those guys you mentioned. Kobe's career (again...not peak) is greater than someone like Hakeem.
Out of curiosity, is it primarily the 3 chips with Shaq that lead you believe this?

[StrongLurk]

I use tiers, not exact rankings. But Kobe has to be in the top 10.

Tier 1 - MJ
Tier 2 - Lebron, Kareem
Tier 3 - Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Magic
Tier 4 - Duncan, Kobe, Bird

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Out of curiosity, is it primarily the 3 chips with Shaq that lead you believe this?

They absolutely play a factor, but so do things like all-league selections.

Kobe has more of those, chips and longer longevity (not more years played, he had that too, but a longer prime). Feels like Kobe just had a more complete resume.

One could say a lot of that stuff is circumstantial. I'd counter that almost everything is and luck plays a significant role...in everyone's career.

[Full Court]

What's with all the Kobe desperation threads lately?

Now that the recency bias has started to wear off, he been relegated to where he belongs - somewhere around #12. You'll see the same thing happen to Lebron 10 years after he retires. He'll be consensus not top 5.

[Yeezy]

He's absolutely not at all. Acting like Kobe is automatically ranked ahead of Shaq, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem etc. is ridiculous, they all have legitimate claims to be ranked higher.

Besides, this is where rankings discussions become tedious. Acting like Kobe being ranked 10th is fine but 11th an outrage is just absurd :lol

its a consensus that kobe is ahead of shaq/duncan/bird/hakeem....... magic is the only one debatable among players/fans


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3pVQwrUUAA1YQu.jpg


https://image.ibb.co/cs3V8d/Screen_Shot_2018_07_23_at_2_06_53_PM.png

[1987_Lakers]

its a consensus that kobe is ahead of shaq/duncan/bird/hakeem....... magic is the only one debatable among players/fans

:roll:

[Yeezy]

:roll:

it isn't? fans and players routinely rank kobe ahead of shaq/duncan/bird/hakeem


old and new

[1987_Lakers]

it isn't? fans and players routinely rank kobe ahead of shaq/duncan/bird/hakeem


old and new

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499632-Top-50-List-Revisited

[Yeezy]

most players that played in the 80's/90's/00's/10's and now have kobe top 5 and in some cases top 2/co goat


only 60's/70's guys have their usual list of oscar/west/baylor/russell/wilt as their top 5

[Yeezy]

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499632-Top-50-List-Revisited

2 message boards that drove away/banned every kobe fan voted differently. no way

[1987_Lakers]

2 message boards that drove away/banned every kobe fan voted differently. no way

What you are doing is called denial.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499632-Top-50-List-Revisited

Forgot they had Kevin Garnett over Kobe....

:yaohappy:

RGM has decent discussion, but that list shouldn't be used to make your point :lol

[Phoenix]

They absolutely play a factor, but so do things like all-league selections.

Kobe has more of those, chips and longer longevity (not more years played, he had that too, but a longer prime). Feels like Kobe just had a more complete resume.

One could say a lot of that stuff is circumstantial. I'd counter that almost everything is and luck plays a significant role...in everyone's career.

You could argue though that Hakeem hit the ground running from jump. Kobe's career was longer but he wasn't an all-NBA level player until his 4th season. Hakeem was a prominent player on a finals team his 2nd year and all-NBA 2nd team.

In order to do a complete 1:1 comparison of their careers, you'd have to ask: If Hakeem spent 8 years with a player of Shaquille Oneal's stature, how many rings does he get? Because Dream otherwise has the same number of rings won as the clearcut best player including a 95 run that's like top 5 all-time given the context ( lower seed and beating his positional rivals plus strong Phoenix and Utah teams), same number of MVPs and finals MVPs, and a few DPOY awards. Only player top 10 in steal and blocks. Yeah there's a lot of playoff one and dones between 86 and 93 when he had a mediocre team, and he was a bit of a malcontent around 91, but we have to remember that Kobe at his height couldn't get out of the first round and was either wanting out or Bynum's ass traded for Jason Kidd. We can kind of pick the bones out of all these guys, but Dream had a solid 12 year run that coincided with the Celtics dynasty, Showtime Lakers, and the Bulls ascension. That's a hell of a tough nut for anyone to crack.

[Yeezy]

What you are doing is called denial.

projection


the world/entire nba landscape > this 15 person message board where i'm the only kobe fan or realgm where me and stalker got banned for life after a a few days there

[Phoenix]

And here we go, the point the thread flies off the track.

[1987_Lakers]

Anyways I have no problem with Kobe being ranked anywhere between 10-13.

It's laughable to rank him ahead of guys like Duncan & Shaq. You can make a good argument Curry has or will surpass him.

[Yeezy]

Anyways I have no problem with Kobe being ranked anywhere between 10-13.

It's laughable to rank him ahead of guys like Duncan & Shaq. You can make a good argument Curry has or will surpass him.

nobody cares where you have anyone ranked. you're 1 rotten fan that ruined jeffs board with your alts and spam. this place used to be fun. you would flood every thread with your simon alts till you were the only one left posting. and the only time anyone engages with you is the few weeks i'm here out of the year

[1987_Lakers]

nobody cares where you have anyone ranked.

You obviously do. You crave for my approval.

Which is why you have left this board crying numerous times when I say something bad about Kobe.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You could argue though that Hakeem hit the ground running from jump. Kobe's career was longer but he wasn't an all-NBA level player until his 4th season. Hakeem was a prominent player on a finals team his 2nd year and all-NBA 2nd team.

In order to do a complete 1:1 comparison of their careers, you'd have to ask: If Hakeem spent 8 years with a player of Shaquille Oneal's stature, how many rings does he get? Because Dream otherwise has the same number of rings won as the clearcut best player including a 95 run that's like top 5 all-time given the context ( lower seed and beating his positional rivals plus strong Phoenix and Utah teams), same number of MVPs and finals MVPs, and a few DPOY awards. Only player top 10 in steal and blocks. Yeah there's a lot of playoff one and dones between 86 and 93 when he had a mediocre team, and he was a bit of a malcontent around 91, but we have to remember that Kobe at his height couldn't get out of the first round and was either wanting out or Bynum's ass traded for Jason Kidd. We can kind of pick the bones out of all these guys, but Dream had a solid 12 year run that coincided with the Celtics dynasty, Showtime Lakers, and the Bulls ascension. That's a hell of a tough nut for anyone to crack.

Those are fair points.

But I think you could do that with just about anyone in the the Top 10. Give Hakeem Magic or vice versa. Give him Bird and vice versa. Luck plays a part and everything is circumstantial.

You could also argue Del Harris stunted Kobe's growth. He preferred playing a seasoned Eddie Jones who ironically thought Kobe was better. Does Kobe have chips early on in, say, Charlotte? Probably not. But likely has better numbers and arguably more individual acclaim somewhere giving him the keys from jump.

[Yeezy]

You obviously do. You crave for my approval.

Which is why you have left this board crying numerous times when I say something bad about Kobe.


you spam the same thing 20 times in a thread. i spam something once to mock you and i get banned for it

:lol

you're a protected poster here. wonder why

[1987_Lakers]

you spam the same thing 20 times in a thread. i spam something once to mock you and i get banned for it

:lol

you're a protected poster here. wonder why

I vividly remember you having a meltdown and leaving this forum for months after I posted a Kobe vid, you didn't even get banned.

You said something like, "I gave you a 2nd chance, I'm out of here" :oldlol:

[Yeezy]

Those are fair points.

But I think you could do that with just about anyone in the the Top 10. Give Hakeem Magic or vice versa. Give him Bird and vice versa. Luck plays a part and everything is circumstantial.

You could also argue Del Harris stunted Kobe's growth. He preferred playing a seasoned Eddie Jones who ironically thought Kobe was better. Does Kobe have chips early on in, say, Charlotte? Probably not. But likely has better numbers and arguably more individual acclaim somewhere giving him the keys from jump.

if kobe got his own team and all the shots he wanted from day one his career average would be like 33ppg and he would be the all time leading scorer after 20 years easily even with an achilles rupture. he would have more mvps too... maybe less rings.. like 3 or 4 tops. but he would basically be where lebron is right now in the medias eyes.. or higher


so playing with shaq actually hurt kobe

[1987_Lakers]

so playing with shaq actually hurt kobe

Dumb. lol.

[Yeezy]

I vividly remember you having a meltdown and leaving this forum for months after I posted a Kobe vid, you didn't even get banned.

You said something like, "I gave you a 2nd chance, I'm out of here" :oldlol:

you started spamming that kobe finals stats thing like 20 times in a thread. its all you do. its all you have when you run out of ammo. if it was a video another time it was another spam job. you can't even function when you're getting destroyed


you make posting here redundant when all you do is derail threads with alts/spam


you ruined jeffs board. this is why only 15 people actually post here anymore

[Wally450]

ITT: Kobe fans having meltdowns like usual.

I personally just have Kobe outside my top 10.

[Phoenix]

Those are fair points.

But I think you could do that with just about anyone in the the Top 10. Give Hakeem Magic or vice versa. Give him Bird and vice versa. Luck plays a part and everything is circumstantial.

You could also argue Del Harris stunted Kobe's growth. He preferred playing a seasoned Eddie Jones who ironically thought Kobe was better. Does Kobe have chips early on in, say, Charlotte? Probably not. But likely has better numbers and arguably more individual acclaim somewhere giving him the keys from jump.

That's what I mean when I say you could pick the bones out of all this stuff. None of these arguments( not saying yours, just in general) exist without some degree of nitpicking and alot of these stuff isn't really graded on a straight line. You are correct when you said that circumstances plays alot into how careers go and all of that context needs to be accounted for to attempt reasoned discourse.

[Yeezy]

Dumb. lol.

its the truth... kobe in 5 years without shaq went to 3 straight finals and won 2 titles. imagine if he had his own team built around him for his first 8 years. they likely get a solid sidekick for him. minimum 1-2 more titles and finals mvps. 1-2 more league mvps


shaq stunted kobe. he hurt his legacy. kobe basically had to start over from scratch and prove himself with a hakeem like career post shaq just to get respect.

[1987_Lakers]

ITT: Kobe fans having meltdowns like usual.

I personally just have Kobe outside my top 10.

As most knowledgeable fans do.

Most casuals have him in the top 10. I find it funny how Kenny uses these casuals to try to prove Kobe is top 5, but then shits on casuals when they have Iverson ranked top 20-30.

He literally showed a list that had Kobe in the top 5 or something to prove his point, but it also had Iverson extremely high. He must have forgot he made a thread shitting on people who rank Iverson high a few days earlier.

[Wally450]

kobe in 5 years without shaq went to 3 straight finals and won 2 titles.

Yea, it's not like he had a great PF playing alongside him or anything. A guy that should've really won 2010 Finals MVP. Or a former defensive player of the year. You're right, Kobe did it all himself.

[warriorfan]

Yea, it's not like he had a great PF playing alongside him or anything. A guy that should've really won 2010 Finals MVP. Or a former defensive player of the year. You're right, Kobe did it all himself.

Love stats Pre-LeBron - 26/13/2/59% TS

Bosh stats Pre-LeBron - 24/11/2/59% TS

Pau stats Pre-Kobe - 19/8/3/59% TS

It's safe to say that Kevin Love and Chris Bosh were better than Pau Gasol before they joined with their new teams

LeBron needed Bosh and Love as third options when he won

Kobe had Pau Gasol as a second option when he won

[Yeezy]

As most knowledgeable fans do.

Most casuals have him in the top 10. I find it funny how Kenny uses these casuals to try to prove Kobe is top 5, but then shits on casuals when they have Iverson ranked top 20-30.

He literally showed a list that had Kobe in the top 5 or something to prove his point, but it also had Iverson extremely high. He must have forgot he made a thread shitting on people who rank Iverson high a few days earlier.

knowledgeable to you = anyone that hates kobe as much as you do

:lol

why is it every player puts kobe top 5 or better. possibly because they're not some obsessed stalker fan with schizophrenia like you

[1987_Lakers]

Love stats Pre-LeBron - 26/13/2/59% TS

Bosh stats Pre-LeBron - 24/11/2/59% TS

Pau stats Pre-Kobe - 19/8/3/59% TS

It's safe to say that Kevin Love and Chris Bosh were better than Pau Gasol before they joined with their new teams

LeBron needed Bosh and Love as third options when he won

Kobe had Pau Gasol as a second option when he won



fail

[Yeezy]

Yea, it's not like he had a great PF playing alongside him or anything. A guy that should've really won 2010 Finals MVP. Or a former defensive player of the year. You're right, Kobe did it all himself.

pau before joining kobe = 7 years, 1 reserve allstar nod, 0-12 playoff record, 18ppg


give kobe the bare minimum and he wins titles

[1987_Lakers]

knowledgeable to you = anyone that hates kobe as much as you do

Yes, anyone who has Kobe as the 11th greatest basketball player out of 4,700 people who have played in the NBA "hates" him. Makes sense.

[Yeezy]

Yes, anyone who has Kobe as the 11th greatest basketball player out of 4,700 people who have played in the NBA "hates" him. Makes sense.

anyone who has kobe outside of the top 10 is either 60 years old+, a paid media troll or a schizophrenic message board poster

[warriorfan]

fail

You failed to grow over 6 feet tall

[Yeezy]

heres why you're schizophrenic




Lebron fans when discussing Lebron vs Jordan

- lEbRoN HaS mOrE 1St TeAm AlL NbA's ( so did kobe )

- lEbRoN HaS mOrE tOtAl pOiNts ( so did kobe )

- lEbRoN HaS mOrE gReAt sEaSoNs ( so did kobe )

- lEbRoN HaS mOrE fInAlS ApPeArAnCes ( so did kobe )

- lEbRoN HaS mOrE LoNgEvItY ( so did kobe )

- lEbRoN Is bEtTeR ThrEe PoInT ShOotEr ( so was kobe )

- lEbRoN HaS mOrE oVeRalL SkiLls ( so did kobe )

- lEbRoN HaS mOrE rEsPonSiBiLiTiEs ( so did kobe )

- lEbRoN PlAyS iN mOrE sKilLeD Era ( so did kobe )

- lEbRoN bEaT FiNaLs SuPeR TeAm ( so did kobe )


https://i.ibb.co/7KgXDsC/Screen-Shot-2022-12-17-at-11-56-20-AM.png





kObE 13th-14tH aLl tImE









https://i.ibb.co/RhNyxGJ/Screen-Shot-2022-12-28-at-11-13-57-AM.png

[Yeezy]

You failed to grow over 6 feet tall



:yaohappy:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

That's what I mean when I say you could pick the bones out of all this stuff. None of these arguments( not saying yours, just in general) exist without some degree of nitpicking and alot of these stuff isn't really graded on a straight line. You are correct when you said that circumstances plays alot into how careers go and all of that context needs to be accounted for to attempt reasoned discourse.

For sure.

I'm all for contexual and otherwise rational debates. Thing is most of them become a stalmate where people start relying on a hypothetical. Eventually these fans must accept what it is and actually happened. It isn't fair, but objectively its the only "real" evidence we have.

Hakeem absolutely has a case over Kobe. I just think what Kobe actually did matters a bit more.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

if kobe got his own team and all the shots he wanted from day one his career average would be like 33ppg and he would be the all time leading scorer after 20 years easily even with an achilles rupture. he would have more mvps too... maybe less rings.. like 3 or 4 tops. but he would basically be where lebron is right now in the medias eyes.. or higher


so playing with shaq actually hurt kobe

Its hypothetical and speculation, but ya, Kobe could've very well had ALL that.

Of all those scenarios his tick in PPG is the one I'm most confident in. Dunno about 33 a game, but knowing Kobe's penchant for scoring, he would be closer to 30 than 25 like he is now. And it would be lauded by a fringe online community lol

[StrongLurk]

I use tiers, not exact rankings. But Kobe has to be in the top 10.

Tier 1 - MJ
Tier 2 - Lebron, Kareem
Tier 3 - Russell, Shaq, Wilt, Magic
Tier 4 - Duncan, Kobe, Bird

Following up on my post. The only way to rank Kobe out of the top 10 is to at worse think Hakeem is better than Kobe.

The bottom 2-3 spots of the top 10 are clearly the most up for grabs and I do think Hakeem is clearly a competitor...but he DID win his rings in a VERY weak league (mid-90's without MJ and 1999 are probably the worst years for talent in the 3-point era).

[Yeezy]

For sure.

I'm all for contexual and otherwise rational debates. Thing is most of them become a stalmate where people start relying on a hypothetical. Eventually these fans must accept what it is and actually happened. It isn't fair, but objectively its the only "real" evidence we have.

Hakeem absolutely has a case over Kobe. I just think what Kobe actually did matters a bit more.

hakeem has zero case over kobe




even if you erased everything kobe did with shaq kobe just from 2005 to 2013 has

- the same rings
- the same finals record
- the same finals mvps
- the same league mvps
- more points
- more all nba 1st teams
- more all defensive 1st teams
- more 30,40,50,60,80 point games
- won with his best competition in the league ( hakeem didn't )
- won both titles without a major collusion ( drexler for 1 of hakeems )
- was considered the best of his era and won every player of the decade award ( hakeem never was/won nothing )



now if you were to add all of this to kobes career with shaq... its a wash


you can say "what would hakeem have done with other great players" all you want. hes not beating the lakers/celtics/pistons of the 80s. hes not beating the 90's bulls. his only titles came because of jordan quitting basketball or coming back out of shape at the end of the season.

hakeem has no real titles as far as i'm concerned. if kobe won with tim duncan retired from the league for 2 years in 2009/2010 then nobody counts kobes 2 without shaq. period. end of story

[Phoenix]

Following up on my post. The only way to rank Kobe out of the top 10 is to at worse think Hakeem is better than Kobe.

The bottom 2-3 spots of the top 10 are clearly the most up for grabs and I do think Hakeem is clearly a competitor...but he DID win his rings in a VERY weak league (mid-90's without MJ and 1999 are probably the worst years for talent in the 3-point era).

I would argue the 94 and 95 seasons were overall stronger than the 96-98 period because 1) it was before the Canadian expansion teams dilluted the per team talent and 2) the major 80s/90s stars were still in or close to their primes. By the time 96-98 hit, the 90s stars, including MJ were on the back-nine of their primes and the younger stars of the league ( Shaq, Hill, Penny, Iverson, Garnett, Kobe) hadn't taken over yet. Yes the Bulls dropped off those seasons without MJ, but the Knicks were better in 94 than 96 when Chicago beat them *again* and I would argue Utah was better in 94 and 95 than 97 and 98, they advanced to the finals in a weaker west. Those finals Jazz teams probably don't make a final if you pushed them back a few years. Then you had an up and coming Magic squad that fizzled out after 96 with Shaq's departure/Penny falling off from injury.

[SouBeachTalents]

I would argue the 94 and 95 seasons were stronger than the 96-98 period because 1) it was before the Toronto expansion teams dilluted the per team talent and 2) the major 80s/90s stars were still in or close to their primes. By the time 96-98 hit, the 90s stars, including MJ were on the back-nine of their primes and the younger stars of the league ( Shaq, Hill, Penny, Iverson, Garnett, Kobe) hadn't taken over yet. Yes the Bulls dropped off those seasons without MJ, but the Knicks were better in 94 than 96 when Chicago and I would argue Utah was better in 94 and 95 than 97 and 98, they advanced to the finals in a weaker west. Those finals Jazz teams probably don't make a final if you pushed them back a few years. Then you had an up and coming Magic squad that fizzled out after 96 with Shaq's departure/Penny falling off from injury.
And if you want to hold Jordan not playing/being rusty against him ok, but Hakeem's titles were MUCH more impressive than Kobe's without Shaq imo. 1995 absolutely blows both of them away, and he carried literally one of the 3 worst championship rosters ever to a title the year before.

[Yeezy]

I would argue the 94 and 95 seasons were overall stronger than the 96-98 period because 1) it was before the Toronto expansion teams dilluted the per team talent and 2) the major 80s/90s stars were still in or close to their primes. By the time 96-98 hit, the 90s stars, including MJ were on the back-nine of their primes and the younger stars of the league ( Shaq, Hill, Penny, Iverson, Garnett, Kobe) hadn't taken over yet. Yes the Bulls dropped off those seasons without MJ, but the Knicks were better in 94 than 96 when Chicago and I would argue Utah was better in 94 and 95 than 97 and 98, they advanced to the finals in a weaker west. Those finals Jazz teams probably don't make a final if you pushed them back a few years. Then you had an up and coming Magic squad that fizzled out after 96 with Shaq's departure/Penny falling off from injury.

worst take ever


the leagues best player not even playing voluntarily

basically like durant skipping the bubble in 2020


hakeem = slightly above bubble status. at least he had fans. but not as many as 1993 thats for sure

:lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

And if you want to hold Jordan not playing/being rusty against him ok, but Hakeem's titles were MUCH more impressive than Kobe's without Shaq imo. 1995 absolutely blows both of them away, and he carried literally one of the 3 worst championship rosters ever to a title the year before.

'95 Hakeem had pretty good help w/ Glide, so not sure about "MUCH more impressive". Agree with 94 though and those two titles, in totality, carrying more weight.


hakeem has zero case over kobe

even if you erased everything kobe did with shaq kobe just from 2005 to 2013 has

- the same rings
- the same finals record
- the same finals mvps
- the same league mvps
- more points
- more all nba 1st teams
- more all defensive 1st teams
- more 30,40,50,60,80 point games
- won with his best competition in the league ( hakeem didn't )
- won both titles without a major collusion ( drexler for 1 of hakeems )
- was considered the best of his era and won every player of the decade award ( hakeem never was/won nothing )



now if you were to add all of this to kobes career with shaq... its a wash


you can say "what would hakeem have done with other great players" all you want. hes not beating the lakers/celtics/pistons of the 80s. hes not beating the 90's bulls. his only titles came because of jordan quitting basketball or coming back out of shape at the end of the season.

hakeem has no real titles as far as i'm concerned. if kobe won with tim duncan retired from the league for 2 years in 2009/2010 then nobody counts kobes 2 without shaq. period. end of story

Cot damn lol. Give this fool an inch and he takes a mile.

I agree that Kobe > Hakeem but for totally different reasons. Someone who doesn't put much value in accolades or honors wont see it that way though. Not coventional but its why you see crazy shit like KG > Kobe lol.

[Yeezy]

And if you want to hold Jordan not playing/being rusty against him ok, but Hakeem's titles were were MUCH more impressive than Kobe's without Shaq imo. 1995 absolutely blows both of them away, and he carried literally one of the 3 worst championship rosters ever to a title in '94.

idiocy

kobe won his titles with lebron and duncan healthy and competing. kobe beat the teams that beat them... 100% valid

hakeems... not so much

[Yeezy]

Cot damn lol. Give this fool an inch and he takes a mile.

I agree that Kobe > Hakeem but for totally different reasons. Someone who doesn't put much value in accolades or honors wont see it that way though. Not coventional but ya its why you see crazy shit like KG>Kobe lol.

if lebron and duncan retired for 2 years and that was the only years kobe won you know he would have the biggest asterisk ever

[Phoenix]

worst take ever


the leagues best player not even playing voluntarily

basically like durant skipping the bubble in 2020


hakeem = slightly above bubble status. at least he had fans. but not as many as 1993 thats for sure

:lol

So as I said above, any chance of reasoned discourse flies out the window when this flame-breathing retard catches wind of a Kobe discussion and decides to take time of his 'retirement' to ruin what could otherwise be a decent thread. Go deepthroat a shotgun once you hit your 57, fakkit.

[SouBeachTalents]

idiocy

kobe won his titles with lebron and duncan healthy and competing. kobe beat the teams that beat them... 100% valid

hakeems... not so much
Tell me how either of Kobe's runs is more impressive than beating

Malone/Stockton
Barkley/KJ
Robinson/Rodman
Shaq/Penny

all on the road.

[Phoenix]

The Bulls probably win the 94 title with everyone back, a rookie Kukoc and some role player upgrades. 95 team with MJ from the get-go is still missing Grant and likely doesn't survive the Shaq/Grant frontline or Hakeem in the finals with Drexler there to at least keep MJ somewhat honest. Let's not act like 95 Hakeem wasn't playing at a level that would have at worse been on par with MJ's level that year, after 7 years of deep playoff runs. The Bulls by no means were guaranteed to win in 95 if MJ never retired, I would lean towards no.

[warriorfan]

And if you want to hold Jordan not playing/being rusty against him ok, but Hakeem's titles were MUCH more impressive than Kobe's without Shaq imo. 1995 absolutely blows both of them away, and he carried literally one of the 3 worst championship rosters ever to a title the year before.

Hakeem’s teams weren’t even bad lol.

[SouBeachTalents]

Hakeem’s teams weren’t even bad lol.
I wouldn't call them "bad", but historically, you'd be hard pressed to find 2-3 championship supporting casts that were worse than his '94 one.

[1987_Lakers]

Hakeem’s teams weren’t even bad lol.

The '94 run was basically Hakeem and a bunch of role players.

In '95 they knocked off four 55+win teams while not having home court advantage for any of those series and were Vegas underdogs in the Finals

[Yeezy]

Tell me how either of Kobe's runs is more impressive than beating

Malone/Stockton
Barkley/KJ
Robinson/Rodman
Shaq/Penny

all on the road.


real season vs fake season


like i said if lebron or duncan took 2 years off during 2009/2010 then kobes 2 titles without shaq would hold no meaning to everyone on here. they barely do as it is with zero real asterisks. imagine the biggest ones imaginable lol

[1987_Lakers]

real season vs fake season

You sound like a toddler, lol. Not to mention MJ did play in the postseason in '95 and lost to Orlando, a team Hakeem swept.

[Yeezy]

You sound like a toddler, lol. Not to mention MJ did play in the postseason in '95 and lost to Orlando, a team Hakeem swept.

jordan wasn't jordan in 95. he skipped the entire year basically. came back out of shape. the proof is the bulls literally coming back the very next season and demolishing that exact same magic team

[1987_Lakers]

jordan wasn't jordan in 95. he skipped the entire year basically. came back out of shape. the proof is the bulls literally coming back the very next season and demolishing that exact same magic team

They lost to Orlando because they didn't have a PF. Despite MJ being "out of shape" he still averaged 31/7/4/3 on 48 fg% vs Orlando.

[Yeezy]

They lost to Orlando because they didn't have a PF. Despite MJ being "out of shape" he still averaged 31/7/4/3 on 48 fg% vs Orlando.

MJ doesn't get stripped like a chump to cost them a game in a real season with preparation

he shot 23% threes in that series too with 79% fts. 4 turnovers a game. his defense wasn't the same. he wasn't as strong physically due to transforming to a baseball body. he got bullied


he wasn't the same. you weren't even born back then. i actually watched the series

[Yeezy]

1995 = baseball skinny mike lol.. zero stamina

https://www.sportscasting.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Michael-Jordan-Bulls-1995.jpg


1996 = i'm back mike

https://www.sportscasting.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Michael-Jordan-Biceps.jpg





hakeem = zero legit rings

[1987_Lakers]

MJ doesn't get stripped like a chump to cost them a game in a real season with preparation

he shot 23% threes in that series too with 79% fts. 4 turnovers a game.

He also shot 47% on 3s and 83% on FT the series prior. :lol

I'll admit physically he wasn't the same, but even if MJ was 100% they aren't getting past Orlando that year, '95 was their weakest team from '91-'98. They had no size.

[StrongLurk]

'95 Hakeem had pretty good help w/ Glide, so not sure about "MUCH more impressive". Agree with 94 though and those two titles, in totality, carrying more weight.



Cot damn lol. Give this fool an inch and he takes a mile.

I agree that Kobe > Hakeem but for totally different reasons. Someone who doesn't put much value in accolades or honors wont see it that way though. Not coventional but its why you see crazy shit like KG > Kobe lol.

I had a couple interactions with the Yeezy fellow in another thread and that was enough for me. Told him I wouldn't ever respond to him again because he's clearly just a very dedicated troll/Kobe stan...basically just a complete waste of time to respond to.

[1987_Lakers]

Rockets record vs Bulls from '91-'93: 5-1

But somehow a weaker Bulls roster from '95 would beat the Rockets if MJ wasn't rusty.

[Yeezy]

He also shot 47% on 3s and 83% on FT the series prior. :lol

I'll admit physically he wasn't the same, but even if MJ was 100% they aren't getting past Orlando that year, '95 was their weakest team from '91-'98. They had no size.

you're such a god damn schizophrenic retard

the hornets? the f*cking HORNETS? in the 1st round?

stop just looking up stats you f*cking goofy son of a b*tch. you never watched these games. I DID. stop talking about shit you weren't alive for

[Yeezy]

Rockets record vs Bulls from '91-'93: 5-1

But somehow a weaker Bulls roster from '95 would beat the Rockets if MJ wasn't rusty.

the raptors beat the bulls in 1996. uh oh


raptors > 72-10 bulls

[1987_Lakers]

you're such a god damn schizophrenic retard

the hornets? the f*cking HORNETS? in the 1st round?

stop just looking up stats you f*cking goofy son of a b*tch. you never watched these games. I DID. stop talking about shit you weren't alive for

Hornets had a better defense than the Magic you dumbass. #9 defense compared to the Magic who had the #13 defense.

"But, but, but, MJ demolished the same Orlando team in '96"

True, but you also left out the Bulls added Dennis Rodman to the roster while Orlando lost Horace Grant in the very 1st game of the series.

You're such a retard.

[1987_Lakers]

the raptors beat the bulls in 1996. uh oh


raptors > 72-10 bulls

Bulls were 3-1 vs the Raptors that year.

Try again.

[Yeezy]

Bulls were 3-1 vs the Raptors that year.

Try again.

you can't compare an east and west team based on 2 regular season games each year. its not a big enough sample size... the blazers always used to beat the lakers for the longest time. they would never do shit in the playoffs though. you're a joke


and if the rockets were so great from 91 to 93 then where were they at the end of the playoffs. why did jordan face the lakers, blazers and suns


this is why we have a playoff format. its to decide the best teams through actual series where guys have elevated level of play and attention to detail

[1987_Lakers]

Tell us again how MJ beat the same Orlando team the next year while ignoring Chicago added Dennis Rodman while Orlando lost Horace Grant.

[Yeezy]

Hornets had a better defense than the Magic you dumbass. #9 defense compared to the Magic who had the #13 defense.

"But, but, but, MJ demolished the same Orlando team in '96"

True, but you also left out the Bulls added Dennis Rodman to the roster while Orlando lost Horace Grant in the very 1st game of the series.

You're such a retard.

now this f*ggot thinks the hornets were better than the magic

:lol

[1987_Lakers]

now this f*ggot thinks the hornets were better than the magic

:lol

They had a better defense, which I just showed you. If you want to misquote me go ahead, it just shows everyone you have no real response to what I said.

[Yeezy]

Tell us again how MJ beat the same Orlando team the next year while ignoring Chicago added Dennis Rodman while Orlando lost Horace Grant.

so you're saying rodman vs shaq down low was a huge advantage for the bulls

:lol


i can see the rebounding as a wash at least. dunno about the other end though

shaq averaged 27ppg

rodman averaged 11ppg


:lol

[Yeezy]

They had a better defense, which I just showed you. If you want to misquote me go ahead, it just shows everyone you have no real response to what I said.

down low maybe. not on the perimeter

https://i.etsystatic.com/19901498/r/il/49cff6/3865798109/il_fullxfull.3865798109_vh04.jpg


:roll:

[1987_Lakers]

so you're saying rodman vs shaq down low was a huge advantage for the bulls

i can see the rebounding as a wash at least.

:oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

Kenny too dumb to realize the Bulls destroyed the Magic on the boards in '96 with Rodman playing & Horace being injured. Bulls out rebounded them 46-31. Compare that to the '95 series where the Bulls had no bigmen & Magic had Grant and Orlando grabbed more boards than the Bulls.

[Yeezy]

Kenny too dumb to realize the Bulls destroyed the Magic on the boards in '96 with Rodman playing & Horace being injured. Bulls out rebounded them 46-31. Compare that to the '95 series where the Bulls had no bigmen & Magic had Grant and Orlando grabbed more boards than the Bulls.

shaq averaged 10 rebounds... pathetic for him

penny averaged 3 rebounds... pathetic for him

scott averaged 2 rebounds

bowie averaged 2 rebounds

i see a trend here

maybe they just checked out cause they were afraid



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSuW6BdCU2c

[1987_Lakers]

shaq averaged 10 rebounds... pathetic for him

Shaq averaged 11 rpg in that series which was pretty much his season average that year. :facepalm

[Manny98]

He's not 100% anything he's arguably top 10 but at the same time you can name more than 10 players who have cases over Kobe

[Yeezy]

He's not 100% anything he's arguably top 10 but at the same time you can name more than 10 players who have cases over Kobe

there is no argument for Kobe outside of the top 10. not if you want lebron to get goat consideration. everything he has over MJ kobe has over MJ too

[Axe]

Top 12-15 is more ideal. This is not the 2010s anymore.

[Wardell Curry]

The thing is there are some players who are, at least for now, hard-coded into the public consciences' top 10: MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq. Fukk around with the order in whatever way you see fit. But tha'ts 8 guys right there.

Kobe is in the range of determing whether he should be ranked ( from a career POV) over guys like Duncan and Hakeem, then you have guys like Curry and Durant who I honestly feel should be over the West/Oscar/Dr.J tier by now but the NBA populace have a hard time moving past these legacy trend-setters ( and maybe there's a bit of that in names I listed; I don't know). Giannis is in the midst of his peak and already has 2 MVPs and a ring, and primed for more. He's done more than Karl Malone already as far as the metrics we use to separate the GOATs from the near-GOATs, asides from 'points' and 'longevity'. Joker has two MVPS and rightfully could be this years unless the voters get sick of him. Luka is coming. It's gonna be interesing over the next decade.


Strong post, but, nobody in their right mind that watched both players would take Kobe Bryant over Tim Duncan for a career. Nobody. Uncle Timmy is one of the most underrated players ever to play because he flat out kept his mouth shut.

[1987_Lakers]

Strong post, but, nobody in their right mind that watched both players would take Kobe Bryant over Tim Duncan for a career. Nobody. Uncle Timmy is one of the most underrated players ever to play because he flat out kept his mouth shut.

agreed

[Phoenix]

Strong post, but, nobody in their right mind that watched both players would take Kobe Bryant over Tim Duncan for a career. Nobody. Uncle Timmy is one of the most underrated players ever to play because he flat out kept his mouth shut.

You won't get any arguments from me.

[Yeezy]

Strong post, but, nobody in their right mind that watched both players would take Kobe Bryant over Tim Duncan for a career. Nobody. Uncle Timmy is one of the most underrated players ever to play because he flat out kept his mouth shut.

the "take this guy over that guy" argument can literally make jordan slip to 5th or 6th in an all time draft just because big men are always selected first for that kind of thing. poor argument

[Axe]

Strong post, but, nobody in their right mind that watched both players would take Kobe Bryant over Tim Duncan for a career. Nobody. Uncle Timmy is one of the most underrated players ever to play because he flat out kept his mouth shut.
Prominent players who played for dynasties a long time usually get a lot of nods.

[Yeezy]

if I had the first pick in an all time draft I'm probly taking Kareem


if I have the 2nd pick I'm probly taking shaq

3rd pick maybe wilt?

4th pick maybe Hakeem

5th pick jordan?

6th pick Duncan?

7th pick would be a toss up to whoever you prefer between kobe/lebron/magic

so yeah Duncan might get drafted ahead of Kobe. that's not how you rank guys though because you give more credit to guys doing great things as a smaller stature. it's literally an opposite factor in determining greatness vs value

[Wardell Curry]

the "take this guy over that guy" argument can literally make jordan slip to 5th or 6th in an all time draft just because big men are always selected first for that kind of thing. poor argument

Jordan isn't slipping beyond 3 of an all time draft no matter how irrational the people selecting are.

Tim Duncan's defense anchored a franchise for nearly 20 years in which no other team was as consistently good.

I wonder what the average record for each franchise was between 1998 and 2016. I am pretty sure the Spurs are at the top.

That was Duncan. It wasn't Poppovich, it wasn't Ginobili, it wasn't Parker. It was Duncan.

[Yeezy]

Jordan isn't slipping beyond 3 of an all time draft no matter how irrational the people selecting are.

Tim Duncan's defense anchored a franchise for nearly 20 years in which no other team was as consistently good.

I wonder what the average record for each franchise was between 1998 and 2016. I am pretty sure the Spurs are at the top.

That was Duncan. It wasn't Poppovich, it wasn't Ginobili, it wasn't Parker. It was Duncan.

jordan wouldn't get drafted ahead of kareem/wilt/shaq/Hakeem


if you get one of those guys you have a huge advantage cause the guys at the end of a draft are selecting scrubs at center.. the drop off is huge

and even jordan dropping to 3rd is enough to prove that formula of ranking guys is insanely flawed. it's discounting greatness in exchange for value

[Wardell Curry]

jordan wouldn't get drafted ahead of kareem/wilt/shaq/Hakeem


if you get one of those guys you have a huge advantage cause the guys at the end of a draft are selecting scrubs at center.. the drop off is huge

and even jordan dropping to 3rd is enough to prove that formula of ranking guys is insanely flawed. it's discounting greatness in exchange for value

With the ability of hindsight, Jordan is going #1 all time with probably 60 or 70% or more of people participating in such things.

Your viewpoint in the drop off at the center position is somewhat valid, but it's not enough to overcome passing on Jordan.

[Yeezy]

With the ability of hindsight, Jordan is going #1 all time with probably 60 or 70% or more of people participating in such things.

Your viewpoint in the drop off at the center position is somewhat valid, but it's not enough to overcome passing on Jordan.

so you're pairing jordan with a bum center in the 2nd round and going into the playoffs with a first round of Hakeem, 2nd round of wilt, third round of shaq and finals against Kareem


and all those guys get a great wing player in the 2nd round lol


you're doomed

[SouBeachTalents]

so you're pairing jordan with a bum center in the 2nd round and going into the playoffs with a first round of Hakeem, 2nd round of wilt, third round of shaq and finals against Kareem


and all those guys get a great wing player in the 2nd round lol


you're doomed
What's the scenario here, is this like a regular draft with just 2 rounds? Are you drafting your entire 12 man roster? Either way, even it it's just 2 rounds, you could pair Jordan up with an infinite amount of great big men. And hell, even if you didn't, Jordan won 6 titles with a wing sidekick in an era dominated by centers.

[Yeezy]

What's the scenario here, is this like a regular draft with just 2 rounds? Are you drafting your entire 12 man roster? Either way, even it it's just 2 rounds, you could pair Jordan up with an infinite amount of great big men. And hell, even if you didn't, Jordan won 6 titles with a wing sidekick in an era dominated by centers.

30 teams. if it's a snake draft you're even more screwed

you would have to draft great bigs with almost all of the first 10 or 15 selections to have any chance


the talent pool for perimeter guys is way deeper than bigs

you could probly get tmac to pair with Shaq in the 2nd round while you're pairing jack sikma with Jordan lol

[1987_Lakers]

I would love to have an all-time draft with Kenny in it, I would for sure embarrass the **** out of him when drafting players.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?505345-*****All-Time-NBA-Players-Peak-Draft*****/page25

[HoopsNY]

Hakeem > Kobe any day of the week.

[Yeezy]

Hakeem > Kobe any day of the week.

if you ask Kenny Smith he might say this.. dunno who else

[ArbitraryWater]

OP proving beyond a shadow of a doubt he is retarded.

How many top 5 seasons does Kobe even have? 8? It‘s not even much lol.

[Yeezy]

OP proving beyond a shadow of a doubt he is retarded.

How many top 5 seasons does Kobe even have? 8? It‘s not even much lol.

kobe has the 2nd most all nba 1st teams ( 11 ) and the most defensive 1st teams ( 9 )


8? what

and he was probably robbed of a 1st team in 2001

[StrongLurk]

I will say, Kobe's highlight tapes overrate him. His highlights are incredible, but they don't show the whole pic. Ever since Kobe died, all these young cats who barely watched him or never watched him want to say he's the GOAT or second best player after MJ...which is overrating him.

The problem is someone will watch a Kobe highlight tape where he may have scored 35 or 40 points and think wow this guy dominated all the time, but they won't realize Kobe shot 12-30 to score those points.

[hold this L]

if you ask Kenny Smith he might say this.. dunno who else
Haters and pseudo-intellectuals as well

[Axe]

I will say, Kobe's highlight tapes overrate him. His highlights are incredible, but they don't show the whole pic. Ever since Kobe died, all these young cats who barely watched him or never watched him want to say he's the GOAT or second best player after MJ...which is overrating him.

The problem is someone will watch a Kobe highlight tape where he may have scored 35 or 40 points and think wow this guy dominated all the time, but they won't realize Kobe shot 12-30 to score those points.
Pretty accurate. It happens usually with casuals tho. But if kobe also did it with lesser shots, he would have been ranked higher as a player imho.

[HoopsNY]

Pretty accurate. It happens usually with casuals tho. But if kobe also did it with lesser shots, he would have been ranked higher as a player imho.

It's not accurate at all. Kobe had 122 games in his career where he scored 40+ points. In those games, Kobe averaged 45/6/4/2 on 63 TS% (51% FG%).

Look, I think Kobe is overrated - I think everyone is overrated (except for Hakeem, Bird, Steph, and Duncan) - but it's just unfair to act like Kobe's elite performance highlight reels are just some aberration divorced from the supposed reality of horrid shooting almost every time.

[And1AllDay]

hes 100% top 2

[Axe]

It's not accurate at all. Kobe had 122 games in his career where he scored 40+ points. In those games, Kobe averaged 45/6/4/2 on 63 TS% (51% FG%).

Look, I think Kobe is overrated - I think everyone is overrated (except for Hakeem, Bird, Steph, and Duncan) - but it's just unfair to act like Kobe's elite performance highlight reels are just some aberration divorced from the supposed reality of horrid shooting almost every time.
122 games? Lol that's only less than 10% of the games he played his whole career.

[Round Mound]

Skill wise Kobe is probably the best player ever. Now his efficiency is not very good but the dude played hard and loved the game. I respect and admire that. Any player that plays hurt and with passion has to be a great player.

[Yeezy]

Skill wise Kobe is probably the best player ever. Now his efficiency is not very good but the dude played hard and loved the game. I respect and admire that. Any player that plays hurt and with passion has to be a great player.

Kobes TS% was 55% over 20 years

Larry Birds TS% was 56% over 13 years



larry was looked at as one of the most efficient shooters/scorers ever



funny huh

[BigShotBob]

Doesn't Kobe and Duncan have the same TS%? Interesting

I wouldn't take Shaq or Duncan over Kobe. Anyone that does is doing it due to revisionist history at best considering Tim Duncan lost to Kobe in 2008 and then never made it back to the Finals until 2013....after the Lakers fell off.

The last time Kobe and Duncan saw each other in the playoffs Kobe sent him home 4-1. Can someone explain to me what happened?

Duncan averaged 22 points on 43% shooting (for a big man....yikes)

Kobe averaged 29 points on 53% shooting

The next highest scorer for the entire series averaged 19 points. Guess who that was?

Pau Gaso--

Oh wait no it was Tony Parker :roll:

Pau Gasol averaged 13 points on 44% shooting Kobe's second option was almost outscored by Tim Duncan's THIRD option - Manu Ginobili who averaged 12 points

Flip the script and say Kobe lost 4-1 to Duncan while averaging 22 points on 43% shooting while his second option outscored Tim's second option and you would all bring it up to this day

But suddenly everyone forgets about that 2008 series where Kobe sent the "Dynasty" Spurs home

Either

A) None of you know basketball or remember anything before 2012 (This is the most likely answer)

Or

B) You all conveniently forget that it happened

Anyways

Top 10

MJ - Kareem - Lebron - Wilt - Russell - Kobe - Magic - Bird - Duncan - Shaq

Trolls do better

[nayte]

Forgot they had Kevin Garnett over Kobe....

:yaohappy:

RGM has decent discussion, but that list shouldn't be used to make your point :lol

This. They are just another echo chamber like here. None are better then the other

[SouBeachTalents]

Doesn't Kobe and Duncan have the same TS%? Interesting

I wouldn't take Shaq or Duncan over Kobe. Anyone that does is doing it due to revisionist history at best considering Tim Duncan lost to Kobe in 2008 and then never made it back to the Finals until 2013....after the Lakers fell off.

The last time Kobe and Duncan saw each other in the playoffs Kobe sent him home 4-1. Can someone explain to me what happened?

Duncan averaged 22 points on 43% shooting (for a big man....yikes)

Kobe averaged 29 points on 53% shooting

The next highest scorer for the entire series averaged 19 points. Guess who that was?

Pau Gaso--

Oh wait no it was Tony Parker :roll:

Pau Gasol averaged 13 points on 44% shooting Kobe's second option was almost outscored by Tim Duncan's THIRD option - Manu Ginobili who averaged 12 points

Flip the script and say Kobe lost 4-1 to Duncan while averaging 22 points on 43% shooting while his second option outscored Tim's second option and you would all bring it up to this day

But suddenly everyone forgets about that 2008 series where Kobe sent the "Dynasty" Spurs home

Either

A) None of you know basketball or remember anything before 2012 (This is the most likely answer)

Or

B) You all conveniently forget that it happened

Anyways

Top 10

MJ - Kareem - Lebron - Wilt - Russell - Kobe - Magic - Bird - Duncan - Shaq

Trolls do better
Yes, we frequently rank players on the entire basis of a 5 game sample size :lol You can easily do the the same shit for 2003, when Duncan beat Kobe with a prime Shaq averaging 25 while his 2nd option averaged less than 15 ppg.

And there's nothing revisionist about this ranking. The 3 of them played in the same era, yet Shaq & Duncan came away with more MVP's/FMVP's than Kobe.

[BigShotBob]

Yes, we frequently rank players on the entire basis of a 5 game sample size :lol You can easily do the the same shit for 2003, when Duncan beat Kobe with a prime Shaq averaging 25 while his 2nd option averaged less than 15 ppg.

And there's nothing revisionist about this ranking. The 3 of them played in the same era, yet Shaq & Duncan came away with more MVP's/FMVP's than Kobe.

Kobe outplayed both Duncan and Shaq in 2001 and 2002 in the playoffs and again in 2008.

Shaq has less rings and Duncan only won his rings when the Lakers had internal issues. The Spurs won the championship in 2007 then got sent home by Kobe and Pau Gasol (looks like he doesn't need Shaq to win) in 2008.

Head to head in the playoffs Kobe simply does not lose to Tim Duncan and the only time you can name it is once when Robert Horry missed every single 3 that he put up

If that's what it takes to beat him then he's not better than him sorry

Oh and Kobe outplayed Shaq in 2003 as well

[Axe]

Funny how we have posters here who point out how a specific player have (got) outplayed (by) their teammates from time to time. Only in ISH. :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

122 games? Lol that's only less than 10% of the games he played his whole career.

Why are you being so stubborn? Re-read what you posted...


I will say, Kobe's highlight tapes overrate him. His highlights are incredible, but they don't show the whole pic. Ever since Kobe died, all these young cats who barely watched him or never watched him want to say he's the GOAT or second best player after MJ...which is overrating him.

The problem is someone will watch a Kobe highlight tape where he may have scored 35 or 40 points and think wow this guy dominated all the time, but they won't realize Kobe shot 12-30 to score those points.

The reality is that when Kobe was dominating, he was doing so in an efficient manner.

[HoopsNY]

It gets even better...in games with 35+ points (236 of them), Kobe averaged 41/6/5/2 on 62% TS% (51% FG%). But go ahead, keep believing that Kobe's highlight reels of 35+ points were some display of select shots in a "12-30" shooting night.

[Soundwave]

I'm gonna be real, I don't think Magic or Bird are actually better basketball players than Kobe and if there is any separation there, it's very, very thin.

Magic and Bird are great, don't get me wrong, but they're not on some tier way beyond a Kobe Bryant if at all. Kobe is the better pure talent and better athlete along with the better defender of that group and the best scorer.

Magic and Bird get a bump because they "saved the NBA" and made it "fun to watch".

[Soundwave]

30 teams. if it's a snake draft you're even more screwed

you would have to draft great bigs with almost all of the first 10 or 15 selections to have any chance


the talent pool for perimeter guys is way deeper than bigs

you could probly get tmac to pair with Shaq in the 2nd round while you're pairing jack sikma with Jordan lol

It's possible a guy like Ewing (or if modern players are allowed, since they're not finished their careers) or Embiid or maybe worst case like Mutombo or Alonzo Mourning or Pau Gasol or Yao Ming or Dwight Howard or Anthony Davis would be there in that scenario.

In a snake draft if I picked Jordan no.1, I'd probably go like

Jordan (1st overall)
Anthony Davis
Yao Ming or Embiid
Penny Hardway
Ron Artest

C- Yao or Embiid
PF - A. Davis
SF - Artest
SG - Jordan
PG - Penny

Probably might be something like what my team would look like personally, Yao + AD upfront would still be a handful for any team. Artest can be the perimeter defender allowing Jordan/Penny to not have to burden themselves with matching up against Magic/LeBron/Kobe/etc. on other teams.

[Axe]

Why are you being so stubborn? Re-read what you posted..
Meltdown. What were those teams in which he scored high while being good at efficiency anyway?

[HoopsNY]

Meltdown. What were those teams in which he scored high while being good at efficiency anyway?

I forgot who I'm talking to. Guy has 30,000 posts and rarely, if ever, dissects and analyzes basketball. Now he brings up the opponents who Kobe faced, as if that makes a difference. So let me make you feel more stupid than you already do, since you wanna bring up "opposing teams", as if Kobe was just dominating a bunch of nobodies.

Kobe has 39 career playoff games with 35+ points...in those games, Kobe put up 39/6/5/1 on 62% TS% (51% FG%). That's spanning his entire career.

You wanna continue making bs claims of "meltdown" or are you gonna just admit you're wrong?

[Round Mound]

Kobes TS% was 55% over 20 years

Larry Birds TS% was 56% over 13 years



larry was looked at as one of the most efficient shooters/scorers ever



funny huh

Talking about playing hurt. Larry played hurt more than any player ever. That's why his stats wen't down from 88-91 and also the post season from 85-91. Kobe is the most skilled 1 on 1 player ever, Larry the goat team player and MJ the goat.

[John8204]

I'm gonna be real, I don't think Magic or Bird are actually better basketball players than Kobe and if there is any separation there, it's very, very thin.

Magic and Bird are great, don't get me wrong, but they're not on some tier way beyond a Kobe Bryant if at all. Kobe is the better pure talent and better athlete along with the better defender of that group and the best scorer.

Magic and Bird get a bump because they "saved the NBA" and made it "fun to watch".

Kobe is the best 1-1 player of all-time but it makes him a crappy basketball player because Bird and Magic didn't care about numbers they cared about winning. Bird, Magic, Lebron, Oscar, and Wilt...those are five position players who could do anything. Kobe not so much.

Still in defense of Kobe people look at Kobe/Duncan/Shaq and they can't really pick out one so they put all three in the top ten...that's absurd.

[8Ball]

Kobe is in the top 10.

Saying Kobe isn't top 10 is just trolling.

Closer to top 5 than top 10 imo.

[Axe]

Kobe is in the top 10.

Saying Kobe isn't top 10 is just trolling.

Closer to top 5 than top 10 imo.
So he's still better than stephen curry at least. :bowdown:

[8Ball]

Curry is top 12 right now with Durant.

[Axe]

Curry is top 12 right now with Durant.
I have him at top 15 (from top 19-21) at best after that fluke 2022 finals win.

[8Ball]

I have him at top 15 (from top 19-21) at best after that fluke 2022 finals win.

Axe you my boy but you hating a bit.

[Axe]

Axe you my boy but you hating a bit.
Hehe sorry. It's a personal ranking tho.

[8Ball]

Top 15 for Curry isn't that bad tbh.

But he really knocking on that top 10 door by end of his career.

[Axe]

Yea, we are yet to see tho if he can win a 5th ring or not.

[John8204]

Axe you my boy but you hating a bit.

I also have him at 15 position and generation ranking

Generation -
(1)Lebron, (2)Curry
Point Guard -
(1)Magic, (2)Oscar, (3)Curry
Guards
(1) Jordan, (2) Magic, (3) Kobe, (4) Oscar, (5) West (6) Curry
Total
Jordan, Wilt, Lebron, Bird, KAJ
Bill, Magic, Mikan, Kobe, Oscar
West, Duncan, Moses, Hakeem, Curry

Poor defense, only 20K points and he's still a ring and MVP behind all-timers

[Soundwave]

Kobe is the best 1-1 player of all-time but it makes him a crappy basketball player because Bird and Magic didn't care about numbers they cared about winning. Bird, Magic, Lebron, Oscar, and Wilt...those are five position players who could do anything. Kobe not so much.

Still in defense of Kobe people look at Kobe/Duncan/Shaq and they can't really pick out one so they put all three in the top ten...that's absurd.

I don't really buy it. Again look at Duncan's playoff record against Kobe, not very flattering. Kobe definitely could win and frankly he did win a lot.

If you give him Kareem + Worthy + Cooper in the 80s or McHale + Parish + DJ, he would win a lot of championships too.

Is he going to have as many close friends on the team as Bird or Magic? No.

[Axe]

I also have him at 15 position and generation ranking

Generation -
(1)Lebron, (2)Curry
Point Guard -
(1)Magic, (2)Oscar, (3)Curry
Guards
(1) Jordan, (2) Magic, (3) Kobe, (4) Oscar, (5) West (6) Curry
Total
Jordan, Wilt, Lebron, Bird, KAJ
Bill, Magic, Mikan, Kobe, Oscar
West, Duncan, Moses, Hakeem, Curry

Poor defense, only 20K points and he's still a ring and MVP behind all-timers
Reasonable take. He also doesn't have any defensive nods compared to many of those guys mentioned above.

[John8204]

I don't really buy it. Again look at Duncan's playoff record against Kobe, not very flattering. Kobe definitely could win and frankly he did win a lot.

If you give him Kareem + Worthy + Cooper in the 80s or McHale + Parish + DJ, he would win a lot of championships too.

Is he going to have as many close friends on the team as Bird or Magic? No.

Kobe played with talent, Howard, Nash, Artest, Shaq, Gasol...the only guy that could put up with him for more than one contract was Derek Fisher and that was because he was fishing for coaching work post career.

Duncan led a great team with guys that checked their egos...Manu and David Robinson in particular...Kobe didn't do that.

[Nowitness]

I don't really buy it. Again look at Duncan's playoff record against Kobe, not very flattering. Kobe definitely could win and frankly he did win a lot.

If you give him Kareem + Worthy + Cooper in the 80s or McHale + Parish + DJ, he would win a lot of championships too.

Is he going to have as many close friends on the team as Bird or Magic? No.

For 3 of Kobes 4 playoff wins v Duncan who did he have? Is it a top 12 player all time at his peak/prime?

Now who did Duncan have? An aged Robinson? Parker before he could buy a beer? The help isn't comparable. In 02 v LA the Spurs 2nd leading scorer was Antonio Daniels. Pop and RC were routinely blasted from 00-04 for failing to provide legitimate offensive help for Duncan, hence why, in 03 for example, he won a title averaging more than his 2nd and 3rd options did combined.

08 is the only victory Kobe has where teams were even (Spurs were better IMO, but Manu choked). It stands as Kobe's best series ever to me.

Also, despite that Duncan still beat prime Kobe/Shaq twice, and had Kobe not tore his achilleas it would be 4-3