Ben Simmons took 3 shots and scored 0 points. He might've been the best player on BRK

[Im Still Ballin]

He played 26 minutes, was +10, had 9 rebounds, 13 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, and only 2 turnovers. He was the only player on the team with a positive plus-minus. Foul trouble limited his minutes.

The team absolutely collapsed without him. He played great defense, pushed the pace, and made great passes. Some of those assists came in the transition while others in the halfcourt. Those half-court assists were getting guys in their spots so to speak. Rondo assists.

There's a difference between creating an open shot and making the pass as opposed to passing to someone in rhythm. Ben is the latter. He might not be as valuable as a playmaker that uses his scoring threat to collapse the defense, but what he does is still important.

There's something to be said about getting the ball to guys in their spots and within the rhythm of the offense. He gets the most out of Kyrie and KD because they play better off-ball, attacking off the catch.

There's also something to be said about a guy that can push the tempo and find a few extra transition buckets per game.

Ben's a flawed player, but he's still a valuable asset to his team. People are making a big stink about him scoring 0 points, but I don't really care. It's a team game. The way he played tonight was of value to his team.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck_XMdOqJ6k

[Spurs m8]

This is the exact Ben I said would be a valuable asset to the team...he needs to keep the momentum

[Real Men Wear Green]

You can't foul out if you don't play. His minutes weren't just limited by foul trouble, he was benched by his coach for the 4th quarter. He was benched after a particularly lame sequence where on one possession he took the ball into the paint with no intention to score whatsoever and then the next possession went up weak seemingly realizing how lame he looked the play before but still scared of possibly having to shoot free throws. He has talent and there are things he can do to help a team but he may be the least clutch player in the league because he's so scared to shoot. If he doesn't find some confidence somewhere inside himself he will continue to be benched in the fourth and will be one of the main scapegoats when the Nets lose in the postseason.

[Im Still Ballin]

You can't foul out if you don't play. His minutes weren't just limited by foul trouble, he was benched by his coach for the 4th quarter. He was benched after a particularly lame sequence where on one possession he took the ball into the paint with no intention to score whatsoever and then the next possession went up weak seemingly realizing how lame he looked the play before but still scared of possibly having to shoot free throws. He has talent and there are things he can do to help a team but he may be the least clutch player in the league because he's so scared to shoot. If he doesn't find some confidence somewhere inside himself he will continue to be benched in the fourth and will be one of the main scapegoats when the Nets lose in the postseason.

Sure, that's fair. I agree. Needs to get back to being a 60% FT shooter.

I still think it was an overreaction to bench him. All players have strengths and weaknesses, attributes, and flaws. I think it's about the net value gained or lost. His impact was evident to me tonight. Should've at least used him until he fouled out.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Sure, that's fair. I agree. Needs to get back to being a 60% FT shooter.

I still think it was an overreaction to bench him. All players have strengths and weaknesses, attributes, and flaws. I think it's about the net value gained or lost. His impact was evident to me tonight. Should've at least used him until he fouled out.

O don't know a lot about Vaughn as a coach but Just about any coach would have been getting in his case about the fear of shooting. He's been hearing about it since Philly. With the benchings Vaugn seems to be trying to send a message or just gotten sick of the scared play. I don't blame him.

[nayte]

He is gonna get irrational hate no matter what he does. He fits the team fine with Durant.

[Im Still Ballin]

He is gonna get irrational hate no matter what he does. He fits the team fine with Durant.

People are saying arbitrary shit like he needs to average this many points if they want to win. Don't hear them saying the same for Draymond, and we all saw how impactful he was last season. They might've won 65+ games if he didn't go down with an injury. 28-6 before he went down.

As you said, things are looking nice. The fit is good. He's +6.3 over the last 24 games. 19-5. Eye test is solid. Box score is solid but not that important.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Draymond Green will take an open shot. He isn't a good shooter but he is at least trying to be a threat.

[Im Still Ballin]

Draymond Green will take an open shot. He isn't a good shooter but he is at least trying to be a threat.

As in 3pt shooting? I'm not sure Draymond's perimeter shooting provides GSW any value whatsoever. Defenses don't guard him and he shoots low percentages. His offensive value comes more from his playmaking, screen-setting, and paint-scoring. The same things for Benjamin. Looking at the numbers, they score at similar amounts in the paint.

Dray had several games taking only three shots last season.

[Real Men Wear Green]

As in 3pt shooting? I'm not sure Draymond's perimeter shooting provides GSW any value whatsoever. Defenses don't guard him and he shoots low percentages. His offensive value comes more from his playmaking, screen-setting, and paint-scoring. The same things for Benjamin. Looking at the numbers, they score at similar amounts in the paint.

Dray had several games taking only three shots last season.

Overall Green's shooting is a weakness but he takes the shot because he may make it and as a basketball player you have to at least occasionally punish the defense for ignoring you. If you don't you get benched for the fourth quarter like Simmons for a guy that isn't scared to shoot. You just want to look at the individual numbers in a vacuum and not thinking about the terrible effect it had on the offense when they have to play 4on 5. Last playoffs KD had a bad series because Tatum almost always had help ready. But it's not easy to double a guy all game as you have to leave someone open. Simmons would solve that problem.

[Kblaze8855]

Overall Green's shooting is a weakness but he takes the shot because he may make it and as a basketball player you have to at least occasionally punish the defense for ignoring you. If you don't you get benched for the fourth quarter like Simmons for a guy that isn't scared to shoot. You just want to look at the individual numbers in a vacuum and not thinking about the terrible effect it had on the offense when they have to play 4on 5. Last playoffs KD had a bad series because Tatum almost always had help ready. But it's not easy to double a guy all game as you have to leave someone open. Simmons would solve that problem.


The 4 shooters playing with Durant last playoffs shot 43, 53, 54, and 38% from 3 while they got swept. But Ben being out there and willing to shoot solves it?

If he’d been out there and they ganged on KD the way they did the narrative would be his lack of aggression is why they were able.

They just did it even though KD was surrounded by shooters. Shooters who were making their shots. Nets shot 42% to the Celtics 36.

They just lost anyway. It isn’t that simple sometimes.


Fans will find a way to blame a non scorer because that’s what fans do. Assume that if the non scorer scored the team would be better. Usually ignoring that the team is gonna score about the same either way because you move points not add to them scoreboard wise.

The nets losing in the playoffs while he scores 7 a game will be blamed on him by people who watched the whole team make threes around KD last year and get swept. People decide in advance what to blame and can rarely be convinced anything else is at fault because they watch with confirmation bias.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Fan reaction isn't even what's important. What matters is the limitation created by his unwillingness to shoot. The fact that he's now regularly getting benched in the fourth. He is aprior allstar #1 pick in what should be his physical prime and he is deemed by his coach unplayable in the fourth. Like this isn't me talking trash this is his coach playing other people over him.

[Axe]

People are saying arbitrary shit like he needs to average this many points if they want to win. Don't hear them saying the same for Draymond, and we all saw how impactful he was last season. They might've won 65+ games if he didn't go down with an injury. 28-6 before he went down.

As you said, things are looking nice. The fit is good. He's +6.3 over the last 24 games. 19-5. Eye test is solid. Box score is solid but not that important.
Agreed. Curry stans won't like hearing it but the donkey really made a significant impact on his team last season. Just not offensively.

[hold this L]

People are saying arbitrary shit like he needs to average this many points if they want to win. Don't hear them saying the same for Draymond, and we all saw how impactful he was last season. They might've won 65+ games if he didn't go down with an injury. 28-6 before he went down.

As you said, things are looking nice. The fit is good. He's +6.3 over the last 24 games. 19-5. Eye test is solid. Box score is solid but not that important.

It makes sense why that is. Dray is a 4 time champion, and his team has shown they can win with him being a zero offensive scoring option in some games during the playoffs. Ben has been a big liability and part of the reason they got kicked out of the playoffs. The narrative will change from the public when he proves it in the playoffs, as it should be.

Nets look like a legitimate contender though, I don't see many teams beating them. Bucks and Boston only from the East.

[hold this L]

The 4 shooters playing with Durant last playoffs shot 43, 53, 54, and 38% from 3 while they got swept. But Ben being out there and willing to shoot solves it?

If he’d been out there and they ganged on KD the way they did the narrative would be his lack of aggression is why they were able.

They just did it even though KD was surrounded by shooters. Shooters who were making their shots. Nets shot 42% to the Celtics 36.

They just lost anyway. It isn’t that simple sometimes.


Fans will find a way to blame a non scorer because that’s what fans do. Assume that if the non scorer scored the team would be better. Usually ignoring that the team is gonna score about the same either way because you move points not add to them scoreboard wise.

The nets losing in the playoffs while he scores 7 a game will be blamed on him by people who watched the whole team make threes around KD last year and get swept. People decide in advance what to blame and can rarely be convinced anything else is at fault because they watch with confirmation bias.
They lost because KD and Kyrie were horrible that series, particularly in the 4th quarter. Got swept in a series by less than 20 points in total, didn't even think that was possible. I'd say the chance of both those guys playing that badly again in the same series is pretty much 0%.

[Charlie Sheen]

Fan reaction isn't even what's important. What matters is the limitation created by his unwillingness to shoot. The fact that he's now regularly getting benched in the fourth. He is aprior allstar #1 pick in what should be his physical prime and he is deemed by his coach unplayable in the fourth. Like this isn't me talking trash this is his coach playing other people over him.

:applause:

Draymond may not add value with his shooting, but Ben is disrupting the offense by refusing to shoot.

[Kblaze8855]

Fan reaction isn't even what's important. What matters is the limitation created by his unwillingness to shoot. The fact that he's now regularly getting benched in the fourth. He is aprior allstar #1 pick in what should be his physical prime and he is deemed by his coach unplayable in the fourth. Like this isn't me talking trash this is his coach playing other people over him.

The “limitation” is largely in the heads of fans who again…see through a lens of confirmation bias. 76ers swap him for Harden who obviously has no concern shooting while also having Maxey develop into a near star and lose in the same round. He doesn’t play at all last playoffs and KD is surrounded by knock down shooters all of whom shot well from 3 and he still gets mobbed and swept. Exactly what everyone says would happen with a non scorer like Ben who can’t make teams pay for doubling.

Ben generally plays less without KD so having no KD in the lineup in the 4th Id expect to lessen his minutes but I’ve been watching them play him in the 4th with KD all year. The nets and pelicans get more of my day to day watching than anyone at this point just off wanting to see how they play.

No KD will reduce bens minutes I suspect but the “limitations” fans speak of are generally exaggerations brought from poor understanding and trying to put a single cause on failure that happens with or without him.

Team falls apart while he’s there it’s his fault. Falls apart without him…what then? We hear his lack of shooting is the problem but his teams have yet to do shit when he’s out of the picture. It isn’t really evidence being used to draw a conclusion. It’s a conclusion being used to fabricate evidence because fans begin and end their criticism with simple things they feel they can easily explain. Like a guy who doesn’t shoot.

He must be the problem.

When he’s no longer an option to blame they don’t know what to do when the results are the same. But they still have to be right that he used to be the problem and will be the problem later as well.

[Jasper]

his +/- was best for the team at +10.... without scoring a point !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GrayGoat]

Unfortunately you have to outscore the other team in order to win lol

[Real Men Wear Green]

They lost because KD and Kyrie were horrible that series, particularly in the 4th quarter. Got swept in a series by less than 20 points in total, didn't even think that was possible. I'd say the chance of both those guys playing that badly again in the same series is pretty much 0%.
If Rob Williams is healthy they would be facing an even better Celtic defense.

[Real Men Wear Green]

The “limitation” is largely in the heads of fans who again…see through a lens of confirmation bias. 76ers swap him for Harden who obviously has no concern shooting while also having Maxey develop into a near star and lose in the same round. He doesn’t play at all last playoffs and KD is surrounded by knock down shooters all of whom shot well from 3 and he still gets mobbed and swept. Exactly what everyone says would happen with a non scorer like Ben who can’t make teams pay for doubling.

Ben generally plays less without KD so having no KD in the lineup in the 4th Id expect to lessen his minutes but I’ve been watching them play him in the 4th with KD all year. The nets and pelicans get more of my day to day watching than anyone at this point just off wanting to see how they play.

No KD will reduce bens minutes I suspect but the “limitations” fans speak of are generally exaggerations brought from poor understanding and trying to put a single cause on failure that happens with or without him.

Team falls apart while he’s there it’s his fault. Falls apart without him…what then? We hear his lack of shooting is the problem but his teams have yet to do shit when he’s out of the picture. It isn’t really evidence being used to draw a conclusion. It’s a conclusion being used to fabricate evidence because fans begin and end their criticism with simple things they feel they can easily explain. Like a guy who doesn’t shoot.

He must be the problem.

When he’s no longer an option to blame they don’t know what to do when the results are the same. But they still have to be right that he used to be the problem and will be the problem later as well.

Being a nonshooter isn't just something in the fans heads its a real problem. If it didn't matter he would most likely still be in Philly. It's coaches that are deciding he is unplayable. Coach Rivers was the guy that wasn't sure he could be apg for a champion that hurt his feelings so bad he couldn't play for a year. The fans boo and make memes but these are real coaches of his and probably teammates as well that are having a problem.

[Kblaze8855]

It’s no more a problem than the 45 reasons all but one team is gonna lose anyway. Ben is there his lack of shooting is why they lose. Replace him with Harden as Maxey becomes a really good player and lose anyway. Every problem fans obsess over get remedied only to have the same result as fans then act like they know why the next team loses.

Wanna know why teams with a non shooting point lose?

The same reason teams with great shooting points lose.


Everyone mostly loses.

Losing with a non shooter just lets idiot fans think they know why.

Teams lose because they can’t defend, shoot, rebound, control turnovers, and everything else. But when a bad shooter exists he’s solely responsible but the guys getting picked on in switches aren’t long as they score 19 points even if they get put in literally 60 situations a game for the offense to exploit them.


But “Can ____ win in a switch everything league when he can’t defend anyone quick or strong” is never as focused on the way “Can ___ win without shooting” is.

Having a certain lineup for some situations doesn’t mean anyone is unplayable. Ben generally playing 4th with KD who is now injured doesn’t prove he’s unplayable any
more than Tony Parker being benched for Speedy Claxton in the 4th or Acie Law playing late over Steph when he was already 50 times the player.

It isn’t “The coach thinks he’s unplayable” it’s a brief lineup call that isn’t generally gonna happen forever. I’ve watched him not shoot and play in 4ths all year. He didn’t suddenly stop shooting. He’s been playing late as a known non shooter all his career.

In all likelihood what’s gonna happen is they will lose and he will be mostly blamed when they and everyone else is more likely to lose than win anyway. He will take the blame for teams loading up on KD just like they did last year when all the shooters on the nets were on the floor and hitting their shots.

Nobody will learn anything. The next non shooter will be blamed for losing while non defenders lose on teams just as talented with no outrage.

Thats sports.

[fourkicks44]

He is a god damn 6'10 athletic perennial All-Star that is scared to go in the paint because he might get fouled and have to go to the free throw line.

That is the issue.

We all know he won't shoot threes, that is accepted by everyone at this point.

The issue is the mental weakness and scarring that has lead to the ft issue and fear of taking it to the hoop. He won't dunk unless he is wide open anymore. Any pressure inside and he crumbles.

That's why Vaughn won't play him in the fourth.

[Wally450]

He is a god damn 6'10 athletic perennial All-Star that is scared to go in the paint because he might get fouled and have to go to the free throw line.

That is the issue.

We all know he won't shoot threes, that is accepted by everyone at this point.

The issue is the mental weakness and scarring that has lead to the ft issue and fear of taking it to the hoop. He won't dunk unless he is wide open anymore. Any pressure inside and he crumbles.

That's why Vaughn won't play him in the fourth.

:applause:

[Charlie Sheen]

He is a god damn 6'10 athletic perennial All-Star that is scared to go in the paint because he might get fouled and have to go to the free throw line.

That is the issue.

We all know he won't shoot threes, that is accepted by everyone at this point.

The issue is the mental weakness and scarring that has lead to the ft issue and fear of taking it to the hoop. He won't dunk unless he is wide open anymore. Any pressure inside and he crumbles.

That's why Vaughn won't play him in the fourth.

That is smart coaching. Ben was able to recover from the infamous 1 point game against Boston because it always felt like he had a more solid support system in place under Brown than Doc. Ben's fear of failure isn't Doc's fault, but Doc's approach didn't help the situation either.

[GrayGoat]

That is smart coaching. Ben was able to recover from the infamous 1 point game against Boston because it always felt like he had a more solid support system in place under Brown than Doc. Ben's fear of failure isn't Doc's fault, but Doc's approach didn't help the situation either.

Instead of 1pt he scores 0. Not exactly progress

[Im Still Ballin]

It’s no more a problem than the 45 reasons all but one team is gonna lose anyway. Ben is there his lack of shooting is why they lose. Replace him with Harden as Maxey becomes a really good player and lose anyway. Every problem fans obsess over get remedied only to have the same result as fans then act like they know why the next team loses.

Wanna know why teams with a non shooting point lose?

The same reason teams with great shooting points lose.


Everyone mostly loses.

Losing with a non shooter just lets idiot fans think they know why.

Teams lose because they can’t defend, shoot, rebound, control turnovers, and everything else. But when a bad shooter exists he’s solely responsible but the guys getting picked on in switches aren’t long as they score 19 points even if they get put in literally 60 situations a game for the offense to exploit them.


But “Can ____ win in a switch everything league when he can’t defend anyone quick or strong” is never as focused on the way “Can ___ win without shooting” is.

Having a certain lineup for some situations doesn’t mean anyone is unplayable. Ben generally playing 4th with KD who is now injured doesn’t prove he’s unplayable any
more than Tony Parker being benched for Speedy Claxton in the 4th or Acie Law playing late over Steph when he was already 50 times the player.

It isn’t “The coach thinks he’s unplayable” it’s a brief lineup call that isn’t generally gonna happen forever. I’ve watched him not shoot and play in 4ths all year. He didn’t suddenly stop shooting. He’s been playing late as a known non shooter all his career.

In all likelihood what’s gonna happen is they will lose and he will be mostly blamed when they and everyone else is more likely to lose than win anyway. He will take the blame for teams loading up on KD just like they did last year when all the shooters on the nets were on the floor and hitting their shots.

Nobody will learn anything. The next non shooter will be blamed for losing while non defenders lose on teams just as talented with no outrage.

Thats sports.

:applause:

[Axe]

If Rob Williams is healthy they would be facing an even better Celtic defense.
Some other teams would too.

[Im Still Ballin]

Lineup Stats:

Ben + Kyrie + KD
- 388 minutes played
- 119.5 ORTG
- 109.1 DRTG
- +10.4 net rating

[Im so nba'd out]

So glad we are off the Ben Simmons roller coaster…enjoy manny. I’m good on players only being able to be offensively productive if the entire offense is forced to be in 5 out for them to be productive…. Y’all have fun with Giannis,Zion, and Simmons. Enjoy!

[Real Men Wear Green]

Antetokuonmpo and Williamson shouldn't be mentioned with Simmons. If the Nets had one of those two they would be impossible to deal with. Comparing them to him is a bit insane.

[tontoz]

If one of your primary ball handlers is scared to go to the foul line that is definitely a problem which can be exploited in the playoffs. No getting around that.

[Im Still Ballin]

If one of your primary ball handlers is scared to go to the foul line that is definitely a problem which can be exploited in the playoffs. No getting around that.

Can say the same thing about any player that gets exploited on defense. It just wouldn't be as obvious or cared about because people look at box scores and care mainly for offense. All players have strengths and weaknesses. It ultimately comes down to the net value they bring to their team.

Is Ben overpaid? Yes. Is he an impact player? Yes. Does he help his team win? Yes.

[GrayGoat]

Can say the same thing about any player that gets exploited on defense. It just wouldn't be as obvious or cared about because people look at box scores and care mainly for offense. All players have strengths and weaknesses. It ultimately comes down to the net value they bring to their team.

Is Ben overpaid? Yes. Is he an impact player? Yes. Does he help his team win? Yes.

The thing is defenses don’t even have to defend Simmons. It’s 4 vs 5

[hold this L]

If Rob Williams is healthy they would be facing an even better Celtic defense.

If Ben Simmons played throughout the season and was mentally fit then, Nets would also be better. It works both ways.

[Wally450]

If Ben Simmons played throughout the season and was mentally fit then, Nets would also be better. It works both ways.

You've got a better chance of Rob being healthy than Ben being mentally fit, which is saying something.

[Real Men Wear Green]

If Ben Simmons played throughout the season and was mentally fit then, Nets would also be better. It works both ways.
You were talking about how likely it is that Irving and Durant would continue to struggle so I pointed out a factor that makes the Celtic defense much better than the one they faced. They got that sweep in a series where Williams missed the first two games and didn't start the two he played in. The offensive benefit to Durant and Irving of a guy that the coach may not play in the fourth quarter is not equal to the additional problems they will have facing the best defensive help center in the league.