36/12/10 on 13/14 shooting in 34 minutes

[maxwellcu]

If you don't know already know who put up this line tonight, do you even have to ask?

:lol:lol:lol

Talking about best player this and best player that is a straight up waste of time.

There is no discussion.

[GrayGoat]

Jokic actually improves his teammates around him while Emchoke acts like a 7ft shot jacking guard

[imdaman99]

M
v
p

[Axe]

Yea, he'll probably win it for the third time in a row.

[GrayGoat]

The only way I see Jokic not winning it is if Celtics win 65+ games

[MrFonzworth]

The only way I see Jokic not winning it is if Celtics win 65+ games

:roll::roll::roll:

[hold this L]

Jokic has the MVP award in the bag halfway through the season. Absolutely absurd. Will probably be a top 50 player by the end of the regular season with the chance to get even higher once he gets his 3rd MVP.

[FultzNationRISE]

Jokic has the MVP award in the bag halfway through the season. Absolutely absurd. Will probably be a top 50 player by the end of the regular season with the chance to get even higher once he gets his 3rd MVP.

:lol

So you think he still needs to prove he’s better than the likes of Carmelo Anthony and Dave DeBusschere?

[hold this L]

:lol

So you think he still needs to prove he’s better than the likes of Carmelo Anthony and Dave DeBusschere?

His issue right now is longevity, he is going to blitz past others with ease over the next few years. I just think too many fans in general put way too little effort in someone dominating for just 4 or so years. Being 27 and already in the top 50 all time greatest would be an incredible achievement.

[Axe]

He was just a 2nd round pick bt when he started. What he went through and he's doing now is exceptional. Especially for an international player.

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody has been “There is no discussion” compared to Giannis in like 4-5 years. He has 2-3 40/20/5 playoff games in a row and we talk about him being worse than the year before because he won the title with a 50 point masterpiece.

I don’t know what anyone would need to do to be “It isn’t close” better than Giannis has been the last few years but nobody has done it in a long time.

Miami Lebron wasn’t “There is no discussion” better.

Granted the era makes it hard to compare but 30/12/5 guys who could legit get DPOY any year and already have proof of being title leading great?

Not a lot of those in all history. All just comes down to which absurd numbers you favor. Giannis has I believe 6 seasons nobody else has had more than once.

And he might not be #1 either.

League has a lot of options for that spot right now. They’re all aliens in their own way. Jokic is one of my preferred aliens though.

[handbanana]

I've seen enough.
Jokic is the GOAT (Serbian player)

[ArbitraryWater]

Nobody has been “There is no discussion” compared to Giannis in like 4-5 years. He has 2-3 40/20/5 playoff games in a row and we talk about him being worse than the year before because he won the title with a 50 point masterpiece.

I don’t know what anyone would need to do to be “It isn’t close” better than Giannis has been the last few years but nobody has done it in a long time.

Miami Lebron wasn’t “There is no discussion” better.

Granted the era makes it hard to compare but 30/12/5 guys who could legit get DPOY any year and already have proof of being title leading great?

Not a lot of those in all history. All just comes down to which absurd numbers you favor. Giannis has I believe 6 seasons nobody else has had more than once.

And he might not be #1 either.

League has a lot of options for that spot right now. They’re all aliens in their own way. Jokic is one of my preferred aliens though.

little hard to understand what youre actually saying here lolol

[post]

basketball reference currently gives him a 66% chance to win mvp with doncic second at 10%

vegas betting odds have the same top 2

roughly halfway through the season update if anyone was wondering

[Johnny32]

this would be legoat on a nightly basis if he stopped shooting 3s and got the same soft calls all these other posers get.

[Wally450]

Dude is right up there with Magic, Bird & LeBron as the great passers of all time.

[FultzNationRISE]

Nobody has been “There is no discussion” compared to Giannis in like 4-5 years. He has 2-3 40/20/5 playoff games in a row and we talk about him being worse than the year before because he won the title with a 50 point masterpiece.

I don’t know what anyone would need to do to be “It isn’t close” better than Giannis has been the last few years but nobody has done it in a long time.

Miami Lebron wasn’t “There is no discussion” better.

Granted the era makes it hard to compare but 30/12/5 guys who could legit get DPOY any year and already have proof of being title leading great?

Not a lot of those in all history. All just comes down to which absurd numbers you favor. Giannis has I believe 6 seasons nobody else has had more than once.

And he might not be #1 either.

League has a lot of options for that spot right now. They’re all aliens in their own way. Jokic is one of my preferred aliens though.


Eye test has Jokic comfortably ahead of everyone right now.

Also Giannis (to his credit) capitalized on an inexplicable decision in the finals to just play him 1 on 1 when that was not what the Suns should have done. And the fact Phoenix choked again vs Dallas last year doesnt help his case. Up until that finals his performance was very uneven, and before that year he was specifically known as a guy who couldnt bring his regular season game to the playoffs. Theres been a ton of revisionist history because of one great finals performance. Also who did they beat on the way there, Atlanta and Philly? Not exactly battling thru Kawhi, Lebron, and Golden State. To be fair Giannis did have a great series against Boston last year in a loss, altho people rewrote his story even before that. And he does have a loaded supporting cast. And he benefits from a lack of rule enforcement more than any other star. People are so in love with the “championship narrative” they let one single playoff series mean more than an entire body of work. It’s not reality.

Joker is simply a more complete, more consistent player. He shows up every series in the playoffs, he’s clutch, and he just dominates. Also the crazy thing is he’s almost trying NOT to win mvp this year, there are numerous nights he barely shoots bc he wants to get his teammates in a rhythm. And still he’s averaging 25 on stupid percentages with 11 rebounds and 10 assists :lol

If people actually care about giving this award to the best player (they often dont) then it isnt much of a discussion. Best player in the game right now is Jokic.

[Kblaze8855]

Eye test has Jokic comfortably ahead of everyone right now.

Also Giannis (to his credit) capitalized on an inexplicable decision in the finals to just play him 1 on 1 when that was not what the Suns should have done. And the fact Phoenix choked again vs Dallas last year doesnt help his case. Up until that finals his performance was very uneven, and before that year he was specifically known as a guy who couldnt bring his regular season game to the playoffs. Theres been a ton of revisionist history because of one great finals performance. Also who did they beat on the way there, Atlanta and Philly? Not exactly battling thru Kawhi, Lebron, and Golden State. To be fair Giannis did have a great series against Boston last year in a loss, altho people rewrote his story even before that. And he does have a loaded supporting cast. And he benefits from a lack of rule enforcement more than any other star. People are so in love with the “championship narrative” they let one single playoff series mean more than an entire body of work. It’s not reality.

Joker is simply a more complete, more consistent player. He shows up every series in the playoffs, he’s clutch, and he just dominates. Also the crazy thing is he’s almost trying NOT to win mvp this year, there are numerous nights he barely shoots bc he wants to get his teammates in a rhythm. And still he’s averaging 25 on stupid percentages with 11 rebounds and 10 assists :lol

If people actually care about giving this award to the best player (they often dont) then it isnt much of a discussion. Best player in the game right now is Jokic.


You really can’t be more complete when the other guy does 30/13/6 on top of being DPOY. When one guy is an all time defender who also scores 30 easily? Nah. Defense is too much of the game to call Joker more complete. Giannis has a massive advantage for half the game and can and has scored 40-50 to win not just playoff games…but the nba title. Being a better shooter and passer while the other guy scores about the same or more and is a DPOY compared to your decent defense? Nah. That isn’t being more complete it’s just being difference. Complete requires both sides of the ball.

And Giannis was a two time MVP and defensive player of the year who was already something like a 26,13 and 6 55% shooting player in the playoffs for several years before he went even crazier and won the title dropping 50.

there is no serious way to downplay that. Especially not leaning on people being idiots about his already established all time greatness from before he won. He was clowned for plenty of performances better than those when joker got eliminated versus the suns and Lakers. And it would’ve been fairly idiotic to get on joker about it too.

They’ve both been all time greats for years and there’s no reason to use them against each other. Giannis just happens to be the more proven one at the moment but that’s how careers go. Who knows how it looks in 10 years.

[GrayGoat]

Joker is a swift 2nd round exit like Embiid

[Phoenix]

The only way I see Jokic not winning it is if Celtics win 65+ games

Yeah they'd need to go 32-5 for that lol. That ain't happening, way too much parity for any team to hit that mark this year.

[Phoenix]

little hard to understand what youre actually saying here lolol

In a nutshell, the OP basically said Joker is the MVP and 'there is no discussion'. Blaze is basically saying that Giannis has reached a level where even if you could argue one( like Joker) is a more deserving MVP candidate in a given season, nobody is 'inarguably' higher than Giannis to where you wouldn't mention his name year in year out when the topic of MVP comes around. As it stands right now, Joker and Giannis are pretty much gonna be your 'this guy could legitimately be the MVP every year' types, and Luka is probably entering that conversation now if this year is his baseline going forward.

[FultzNationRISE]

You really canÂ’t be more complete when the other guy does 30/13/6 on top of being DPOY. When one guy is an all time defender who also scores 30 easily? Nah. Defense is too much of the game to call Joker more complete. Giannis has a massive advantage for half the game and can and has scored 40-50 to win not just playoff gamesÂ…but the nba title. Being a better shooter and passer while the other guy scores about the same or more and is a DPOY compared to your decent defense? Nah. That isnÂ’t being more complete itÂ’s just being difference. Complete requires both sides of the ball.

And Giannis was a two time MVP and defensive player of the year who was already something like a 26,13 and 6 55% shooting player in the playoffs for several years before he went even crazier and won the title dropping 50.

there is no serious way to downplay that. Especially not leaning on people being idiots about his already established all time greatness from before he won. He was clowned for plenty of performances better than those when joker got eliminated versus the suns and Lakers. And it wouldÂ’ve been fairly idiotic to get on joker about it too.

TheyÂ’ve both been all time greats for years and thereÂ’s no reason to use them against each other. Giannis just happens to be the more proven one at the moment but thatÂ’s how careers go. Who knows how it looks in 10 years.


Youre right I was referring to offense when I said more complete, but now more than ever defense carries less weight. I'm not saying it doesnt matter, just that when it's barely allowed in the first place how much difference can it make?? And it's not like Jokic is Eddy Curry. He's at least an average defender. When you look at what an impact machine Joker is on offense, I dont see a good case against putting him #1.

I do have Greek in second for MVP right now based strictly on the award criterion of regular season impact/productivity. But in terms of "better player" I always ask who I'd want going into a playoff series with all else being equal. Giannis is just too clunky and unnatural for me to really trust him over guys with similar production. I respect the hard work he's put in to become a superstar despite not being a natural talent, but his basketball skill is just not very reliable. And he needs a TON of ref help to put up the numbers he does. If they ever start calling the game tighter, he's gonna take a big hit. Again I like the guy, and I'm not trying to 'hate' on him, but I just dont think of him in basketball terms the way I think of every other top player. If anyone is "manufactured" based on soft rules and swallowed whistles... it's Giannis. He has demonstrably less basketball skill than the other top players. I also think he's fortunate to have a team that fits him perfectly.

When everything goes his way in a series, yes, he can look as good as anyone (well he wont look as good doing it but the production will be there). But I dont like the idea of relying on that. I'll still take a healthy Lebron, Kawhi, Luka, Embiid etc in a playoff series. Doesnt mean I'm dismissing Greek. I just prefer those guys if the chips are down.

[FultzNationRISE]

In a nutshell, the OP basically said Joker is the MVP and 'there is no discussion'. Blaze is basically saying that Giannis has reached a level where even if you could argue one( like Joker) is a more deserving MVP candidate in a given season, nobody is 'inarguably' higher than Giannis to where you wouldn't mention his name year in year out when the topic of MVP comes around. As it stands right now, Joker and Giannis are pretty much gonna be your 'this guy could legitimately be the MVP every year' types, and Luka is probably entering that conversation now if this year is his baseline going forward.

Luka's lack of maturity keeps him out of the MVP discussion for me. Same reason I'm not big on Embiid for the award. Guys like Lebron, Joker and Giannis put up similar production but show much better leadership. And I think that's underrated.

edit: I shouldnt say out of the 'discussion' but I do think his lack of maturity is a dividing line between him and King, Joker and Greek.

[Kblaze8855]

Who you would want going into a series is your business but fact is nobody to ever play has won anything Giannis didn’t and the dismissal of it by some types just proves they didn’t honestly care about results when they were complaining about them before.

The people who decide to downplay you just use whatever options are available. They lost “Can’t win a title that way” so they have to come up with new reasons.

As a fake Lebron fan you should be used to how that goes.

It doesn’t actually matter what anyone does. The same people who won’t aren’t impressed before will find a reason to still not be. As you’re doing right now.

[FultzNationRISE]

Who you would want going into a series is your business but fact is nobody to ever play has won anything Giannis didn’t and the dismissal of it by some types just proves they didn’t honestly care about results when they were complaining about them before.

The people who decide to downplay you just use whatever options are available. They lost “Can’t win a title that way” so they have to come up with new reasons.

As a fake Lebron fan you should be used to how that goes.

It doesn’t actually matter what anyone does. The same people who won’t aren’t impressed before will find a reason to still not be. As you’re doing right now.


Results?

Giannis has ONE title. And I dont even care about titles. But he was very fortunate to get it anyway (Toe-gate vs BKN, injuries to the hawks, heck didnt MIL win an important game WITHOUT him against them??)

Media votes and team accomplishments dont decide the player value pecking order for me.

I dont have Giannis as highly rated as fans who rely on those things do. Thats all. My eye test tells me some other guys give better expected value if all other things (teammates, opponents, rule enforcement etc) are equal.

[Kblaze8855]

Is he supposed to have 9 titles when he’s like 28? One title you win at 26 puts you well ahead of even the all timers pace. Your eye test can tell you whatever you want it isn’t especially borne out in the results or the facts. Giannis won with a team that isn’t unusually talented for a champion and is a lot less talented than people considered better than him lost with plenty of times.

You can bullshit your way into not being impressed with anything. Half the people here are pros at it. It’s the way everyone pretends they weren’t wrong. The universe simply conspired to let the people they’re unimpressed by do things the people they love failed to do.

You read the pre-accomplishment bitching it’s all about how the results prove the haters right and then the post accomplishment bitching is about how the results don’t matter because the people bitching are too smart to use results. Plus, there were obviously factors at play that haven’t been at play the entirety of the history of sports.

I’ve been watching people do this bullshit on here for 20 years about every variety of player and it would be funny if it weren’t so predictable. At this point it’s just boring. And I know something about boring.

[SouBeachTalents]

Results?

Giannis has ONE title. And I dont even care about titles. But he was very fortunate to get it anyway (Toe-gate vs BKN, injuries to the hawks, heck didnt MIL win an important game WITHOUT him against them??)

Media votes and team accomplishments dont decide the player value pecking order for me.

I dont have Giannis as highly rated as fans who rely on those things do. Thats all. My eye test tells me some other guys give better expected value if all other things (teammates, opponents, rule enforcement etc) are equal.
I don't asterisk titles, but that was an especially fluky season with injuries. It wasn't just the Bucks, the Suns beat the Lakers with AD missing half the series, the Nuggets without Murray & Porter, and the Clippers without Kawhi. While the Bucks beat the Nets with Harden & Kyrie both missing several games, and Harden being clearly gimpy when he came back, and the Hawks with Trae missing a couple of games as well.

You can of course flip this around and argue the Bucks win the title last year if Middleton doesn't get injured, but one player being injured isn't as preposterous as literally 7-8 different stars missing time. Imo it's fair to say the Bucks title counts, but acknowledge they won with an unprecedented amount of contenders having injuries. It is what it is, just like the Warriors title in 2015 & the Raptors in 2019.

[FultzNationRISE]

Is he supposed to have 9 titles when he’s like 28? One title you win at 26 puts you well ahead of even the all timers pace. Your eye test can tell you whatever you want it isn’t especially borne out in the results or the facts. Giannis won with a team that isn’t unusually talented for a champion and is a lot less talented than people considered better than him lost with plenty of times.

You can bullshit your way into not being impressed with anything. Half the people here are pros at it. It’s the way everyone pretends they weren’t wrong. The universe simply conspired to let the people they’re unimpressed by do things the people they love failed to do.

You read the pre-accomplishment bitching it’s all about how the results prove the haters right and then the post accomplishment bitching is about how the results don’t matter because the people bitching are too smart to use results. Plus, there were obviously factors at play that haven’t been at play the entirety of the history of sports.

I’ve been watching people do this bullshit on here for 20 years about every variety of player and it would be funny if it weren’t so predictable. At this point it’s just boring. And I know something about boring.


Your user title...


...is "Titles Are Overrated..."


...And youre gonna sit there and type all that?

[Kblaze8855]

Trae and Giannis both went down. Most wouldn’t even have returned from this:


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2301190021180381.jpeg



Much less come back to have a legendary finals immediately.

[Kblaze8855]

Your user title...


...is "Titles Are Overrated..."


...And youre gonna sit there and type all that?


I said every word I say now about him before he won while his lack of winning was as always the primary evidence I was wrong. It’s just funny to see it removed, and then the same claims get made exactly the way I said they would be for him and several others, including LeBron and Kevin Garnett, both of whom won and kept the same haters from before. Is what you people do and that’s what you argue against when other people do it you just don’t have the self-awareness to see it in yourself.

I have been telling people they’re going to have the same criticism even if the player in question does what they said he can’t forever. I’ve been right 100% of the time. Every single one of these people who does what their primary detractors suggest they can’t because of whatever bullshit they use to justify the criticism keeps the same haters, because their initial criticism was nonsense.

people who are perpetually unimpressed by all-time greats have to convince themselves they’re smarter than the average fan and that’s why they can see that these all-time greats need to be taken down a peg, so when the all-time greats go ahead and do the only things that anybody can be asked to do they have to either admit they weren’t smarter than everyone else, or come up with some reason not to give it full credit. It’s a tale as old as time.

The people downplaying Jokic and Luka are gonna do it too once they get the right lineups and ill watch it happen again.

[tontoz]

Giannis has already missed 10 games and his efficiency is down. If he misses many more games he is definitely out. I don't think anyone has won MVP in the last 20 years while missing 12+ games. With KD also out the only real competition Joker has left this year are Luka/Embiid and maybe Tatum.

[FultzNationRISE]

I said every word I say now about him before he won while his lack of winning was as always the primary evidence I was wrong. It’s just funny to see it removed, and then the same claims get made exactly the way I said they would be for him and several others, including LeBron and Kevin Garnett, both of whom won and kept the same haters from before. Is what you people do and that’s what you argue against when other people do it you just don’t have the self-awareness to see it in yourself.

I have been telling people they’re going to have the same criticism even if the player in question does what they said he can’t forever. I’ve been right 100% of the time. Every single one of these people who does what their primary detractors suggest they can’t because of whatever bullshit they use to justify the criticism keeps the same haters, because their initial criticism was nonsense.

people who are perpetually unimpressed by all-time greats have to convince themselves they’re smarter than the average fan and that’s why they can see that these all-time greats need to be taken down a peg, so when the all-time greats go ahead and do the only things that anybody can be asked to do they have to either admit they weren’t smarter than everyone else, or come up with some reason not to give it full credit. It’s a tale as old as time.

The people downplaying Jokic and Luka are gonna do it too once they get the right lineups and ill watch it happen again.

So youre arguing with me based on things other people have said.

I never knocked Giannis for "not winning." I did however knock him for being easier to stop in the playoffs than in the regular season due to the specifics of his play. Which was true. And he has improved recently as a playoff performer, and I give him credit for that. It also helps that the league itself has evolved in a direction very friendly to his style over the same period of time.

But I dont think you can put him up there at the very top as a guy you want with the ball in his hands no matter the situation, with any cast, against any team. And I have specified why multiple times, and it has nothing to do with how many titles he has.

To be honest, I often think Giannis and Dwight Howard are basically the same basketball player, just in different eras. If one had played in the other's era, theyd be used in that way. They're both good athletes without the ball, not very natural with the ball. And Dwight is definitely a great player all time. Probably a bit underrated even. But are you taking him over Lebron? No. Over Duncan, Dirk or KG? No. He's still a great player but at the end of the day when youre playing basketball, you trust guys who are best at using the object the game is named after. Thats my opinion anyway.

[Manny98]

Yea, he'll probably win it for the third time in a row.

Yep KD was the only other contender and he's now injured so it's definitely going to Jokic

Which will make it the 5th year in a row where a non-american has won the MVP

[Phoenix]

Yep KD was the only other contender and he's now injured so it's definitely going to Jokic

Which will make it the 5th year in a row where a non-american has won the MVP

And with Joker, Embiid, and Luka all in or entering their primes while the Lebron/Steph/KD crew are on the back nine, that trend could continue for a while. I don't see anyone other than maybe Tatum winning MVP over the next 5 years and I don't know what he would have to do to separate himself.

[Axe]

Yep KD was the only other contender and he's now injured so it's definitely going to Jokic

Which will make it the 5th year in a row where a non-american has won the MVP
Which is even more apparent once you take a look at what his team has been going through since he went down.

Meanwhile, we also have clueless casuals here thinking they're so clever to have ja 'pricking' morant deserving league mvp above all others. :yaohappy:

[j3lademaster]

Which is even more apparent once you take a look at what his team has been going through since he went down.

Meanwhile, we also have clueless casuals here thinking they're so clever to have ja 'pricking' morant deserving league mvp above all others. :yaohappy:I think there's a difference between thinking Morant is the best player and deserving vs thinking he'd realistically actually win it. He(Morant) has the numbers, the electrifying playstyle and the record; and Jokic has voter's fatigue.

[Axe]

I think there's a difference between thinking Morant is the best player and deserving vs thinking he'd realistically actually win it. He(Morant) has the numbers, the electrifying playstyle and the record; and Jokic has voter's fatigue.
Morant has potential, no doubt. But the thing is, despite that and his flashiness, he's on a great team that went 20-5 without him too last season. So looking through the given contexts i can't see any compelling case as to why he should be crowned league mvp over the other perennial frontrunners come later this year.