Embiid fans? Prepare to hate on Hakeem.

[Kblaze8855]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2301191952330388.jpeg

[Kblaze8855]

That means he watches today’s stars from afar, and he sees the possibilities. Take Embiid. Olajuwon likes him and has given him advice, but he has questions. “He’s got all the moves, but leveraging the moves is different. Why would he be shooting threes?” Olajuwon asks. “He has the advantage every night, and if I have the advantage, I’m going to wear you out.”

But threes? “That’s settling! When I’m tired, I settle. You don’t settle when you’re trying to win. You don’t start the game settling!”


A little more context.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh and Kobe was his best and quickest learning student and was able to skip to advanced stages immediately. He’s the one who got Hakeem into teaching apparently. Kobe set it up not him and started using the moves in games immediately. Sounds like someone Kobe would do.

[Akeem34TheDream]

Jokic is much better in the regular season but they are pretty close in the playoffs. It sucks to say it but it is very easy to counter offensively skilled big men in the playoffs. You just go at them every play with pnr. Even if their center is good defensively they will get tired. It is what it is.

[Im Still Ballin]

I'm disappointed they didn't get some quotes from Adrian Dantley and Kevin McHale. The article was too Hakeem-centric if we're covering the history of the post-up.

[HoopologyPhD]

Embiid attempts 3.5 three point shots per game vs 2.9 for Jokic so the criticism isn't really relevant.

[FultzNationRISE]

Embiid attempts 3.5 three point shots per game vs 2.9 for Jokic so the criticism isn't really relevant.


Well Joker is more of a point-center who often sets plays up from the perimeter, so it would make sense he finishes some of them with a three point attempt.

Embiid is more of a pure post scorer, so I think the assumption is he should be doing more of his work down there.

[Im Still Ballin]

Well Joker is more of a point-center who often sets plays up from the perimeter, so it would make sense he finishes some of them with a three point attempt.

Embiid is more of a pure post scorer, so I think the assumption is he should be doing more of his work down there.

Joel has morphed into more of a pick-and-roll guy this season. This is obviously due to James Harden. His post-up possessions per game is half of what it was two seasons ago. Something like 9 per game in 2020-2021 to 4 now. Also, consider he has a higher usage rate this season as well.

[tontoz]

Jokic shoots 10% better than Embiid on 2s. That is a pretty big gap.

[FultzNationRISE]

Joel has morphed into more of a pick-and-roll guy this season. This is obviously due to James Harden. His post-up possessions per game is half of what it was two seasons ago. Something like 9 per game in 2020-2021 to 4 now. Also, consider he has a higher usage rate this season as well.


For sure, altho Im sure Hakeem would say a guy like him should then be rolling to the basket, not popping out to the perimeter. I think the idea is Embiid’s threes dont really open anything up. It doesnt create multiple threats. Which is a bit different from how Joker uses the perimeter.

[RRR3]

Jokic is much better in the regular season but they are pretty close in the playoffs. It sucks to say it but it is very easy to counter offensively skilled big men in the playoffs. You just go at them every play with pnr. Even if their center is good defensively they will get tired. It is what it is.
Jokic is much better than Embiid in the playoffs what are you talking about

[Im Still Ballin]

For sure, altho Im sure Hakeem would say a guy like him should then be rolling to the basket, not popping out to the perimeter. I think the idea is Embiid’s threes dont really open anything up. It doesnt create multiple threats. Which is a bit different from how Joker uses the perimeter.

Sure. I agree.

[fourkicks44]

Embiid is 11 games away from being eligible for all time scoring PPG list. He will have the 7th highest scoring average of all time

He will have the highest points per 36 minutes of all time, ahead of both Wilt and Jordan.

[CurryOverLebron]

Pretty good article by SI's Chris Ballard on the evolution of the post play in the league. Lots of insights from The Dream as well including his training sessions with Kobe and Lebron, and his thoughts on current big men in Giannis, Embiid, and Jokic.

Full article here:

https://www.si.com/nba/2023/01/18/nba-lost-art-of-post-play-daily-cover

[Mask the Embiid]

Embiid is 11 games away from being eligible for all time scoring PPG list. He will have the 7th highest scoring average of all time

He will have the highest points per 36 minutes of all time, ahead of both Wilt and Jordan.

They are just going to completely ignore this post :oldlol:. Or find some way to spin it to make it seem like averaging 4 more assist with 10 less points as somehow more impressive than this

[tontoz]

Embiid is 11 games away from being eligible for all time scoring PPG list. He will have the 7th highest scoring average of all time

He will have the highest points per 36 minutes of all time, ahead of both Wilt and Jordan.


So is Maxey off the bench going to be a regular thing? Seems to be working.

[Kblaze8855]

Embiid is 11 games away from being eligible for all time scoring PPG list. He will have the 7th highest scoring average of all time

He will have the highest points per 36 minutes of all time, ahead of both Wilt and Jordan.

I suspect playing ten years past his prime will dent those all time ppg numbers like they do everyone. Maybe not though. People play well later than they used to with the reduced physicality.

[meat]

They are just going to completely ignore this post :oldlol:. Or find some way to spin it to make it seem like averaging 4 more assist with 10 less points as somehow more impressive than this

He's played less than 5 years worth of games. Those numbers will obviously go down as he gets older anyways.

[hiphopanonymous]

Hakeem is right. Jokic appears to do the most, with less than what Embiid brings to the table. Embiid has overmatch ability in a few more areas than Jokic, but his decision making as to which method he will attempt to use those tools is less refined. He's still figuring it out while Jokic seems to have fewer tools but a better strategy that is ultimately more effective.

Embiid is still skill building from what I can tell. He keeps bringing new skills to the table every season. But from what I gather, and probably what Hakeem is gathering, his 30,000 foot up approach to the game is where he stands to improve the most - not fiddling with new moves. Sometimes less is more, and knowing when, how and why to do this is key. Jokic probably gets it. Embiid is maybe not quite there yet.

Embiid can figure it out. But especially with some of his recent comments, I think he's got some maturing to do.

[fourkicks44]

I suspect playing ten years past his prime will dent those all time ppg numbers like they do everyone. Maybe not though. People play well later than they used to with the reduced physicality.

Can that not also can be said for Joel?

He has had a unique career with all the dispruptions. Most people use his injuries against him constantly reminding of his durability but if you look at it critically it has become part of his identity and tells the true story of his career and evolution.

Do you not remember what he was like as a rookie before the knee and head injuries? Sure it was a short period, but he was unmatched as and athlete of his size. He would chase anyone down full court to block them from behind, leaping over two rows of fans to dive for balls, catching lobs everywhere, energy we never see from him no more. He obviously wasn't the scorer or player he is today, but how his style would have evolved completely different. His rookie numbers where once in a hundred years.

If you talk about health, ageing and what could/would/should be hypothetically with the all time lists, Joel's unique situation also needs to be recognized. His athletic prime is well behind him. This has already shaped his career and who he is as a player.

His jump shot has developed extensively and hopefully should serve him well into his career sunset maybe he needs to shoot more threes as he gets older. We will see what happens the next 5-10.years.

[Phoenix]

Return fire from Joel:

"It's funny when you've got these old guys always talking about posting up, you need to spend time in the pain and all that stuff. You can't win this way anymore. It's not the fricking 90s or 80s like it used to be. So they must not have any basketball IQ," the player concluded.

https://basketnews.com/news-184098-joel-embiid-responds-to-hakeem-olajuwons-criticism.html

[NBAGOAT]

Return fire from Joel:

"It's funny when you've got these old guys always talking about posting up, you need to spend time in the pain and all that stuff. You can't win this way anymore. It's not the fricking 90s or 80s like it used to be. So they must not have any basketball IQ," the player concluded.

https://basketnews.com/news-184098-joel-embiid-responds-to-hakeem-olajuwons-criticism.html

Not surprised he fired back lol and he’s not completely wrong. He is absolute money from the elbow area right now and deals with doubles really well

[StrongLurk]

Embiid's problems have mostly been physical (injuries) and mental toughness. His skill and talent is undeniable.

I'd really like to see him and Harden be fully healthy in the playoffs this year.

[tontoz]

One problem for Embiid is hitting the floor so often. When you are 7' 280 pounds hitting the ground is a serious impact.

[FultzNationRISE]

Embiid's problems have mostly been physical (injuries) and mental toughness. His skill and talent is undeniable.

I'd really like to see him and Harden be fully healthy in the playoffs this year.


Yeah.

Nothin more exciting than Playoff Harden….

[dankok8]

Jokic is much better in the regular season but they are pretty close in the playoffs. It sucks to say it but it is very easy to counter offensively skilled big men in the playoffs. You just go at them every play with pnr. Even if their center is good defensively they will get tired. It is what it is.

If anything the gap gets bigger in the playoffs. Embiid has been a pretty subpar postseason player thus far.

[maxwellcu]

One problem for Embiid is hitting the floor so often. When you are 7' 280 pounds hitting the ground is a serious impact.


The problem with Embiid in the playoffs is that the officials finally put a lid on his weak ass free throw carnival. The idea of Embiid as an elite player is a manufactured farce. The guy shoots *at minimum* eight phantom free throws a game. He's a joke and a nothing player.

[imdaman99]

Lol love how a legend is willing to speak his mind about this topic. Embiid can't really clap back seriously (lol at no basketball IQ) when Olajuwon had couple of the most dominating seasons ever. I still have nightmares of him, but he's a Muslim brother and I can only hate him so much. See you on the floor real soon, Embiid. All 270 lbs of you.

[Kblaze8855]

I’ve seen some pretty amusing shot charts from last night paired with these comments from Embiid about the way to win these days.

Great as he is he really should have more advantage inside than he uses vs a lot of these soft modern bigs. Jokic will punish you for a basket. Granted….Horford and Williams aren’t the best example of soft modern bigs. Al deleted his ass multiple times in particular.

[Wardell Curry]

Embiid could dominate inside if he wasn't lazy and if he had any integrity. He'd rather throw himself to the ground randomly throughout the games and shoot long range jumpers.

[DMAVS41]

Whether the specific criticism about his game is fair or not, imo...is just noise.

Joel hasn't been out of the 2nd round in his career and he absolutely had enough help to win this series. His team won a road playoff game without him and he had a chance to close the series out at home. A game that saw the opposing team's best player play the worst game of his career through like 42 minutes.

Everything else is just noise. If you can't close out that game...then fall apart in game 7...you don't deserve the benefit of the doubt historically unless you've already accomplished real things. Joel hasn't yet...so he will and should be criticized until he proves he can get it done like the old guys did.

[RachlNicholsazz]

Jokic is much better in the regular season but they are pretty close in the playoffs. It sucks to say it but it is very easy to counter offensively skilled big men in the playoffs. You just go at them every play with pnr. Even if their center is good defensively they will get tired. It is what it is.

Care to revisit this statement?

[theman93]

Embiid is the T-Mac of round 2.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jokic is much better in the regular season but they are pretty close in the playoffs. It sucks to say it but it is very easy to counter offensively skilled big men in the playoffs. You just go at them every play with pnr. Even if their center is good defensively they will get tired. It is what it is.
:oldlol: Literally have that completely wrong.

[Kblaze8855]

Everything else is just noise. If you can't close out that game...then fall apart in game 7...you don't deserve the benefit of the doubt historically unless you've already accomplished real things. Joel hasn't yet...so he will and should be criticized until he proves he can get it done like the old guys did..


Im wondering what you mean by that. Far as getting the benefit. What does it mean he is as opposed to what he’d be otherwise?


Off the top of my head these are the mvp centers


Russell
Wilt
Unseld
Reed
Kareem
Cowens
Mcadoo
Walton
Moses
Drob
Hakeem
Shaq
Jokic
Embiid


Not getting the benefit makes him what? Towards the bottom of that list? On a whole other list with guys like Zo, Dwight, Ewing?

What kinda real world impact on his status does not having “the benefit” make on where you rank him?

I don’t care where you put him for the record so I’m not looking to argue. I’m just curious.

[Im Still Ballin]

Doesn't have a jump hook, does he? Joel isn't much of a vertical jump guy. A high-release jump hook could do him well

[DMAVS41]

Im wondering what you mean by that. Far as getting the benefit. What does it mean he is as opposed to what he’d be otherwise?


Off the top of my head these are the mvp centers


Russell
Wilt
Unseld
Reed
Kareem
Cowens
Mcadoo
Walton
Moses
Drob
Hakeem
Shaq
Jokic
Embiid


Not getting the benefit makes him what? Towards the bottom of that list? On a whole other list with guys like Zo, Dwight, Ewing?

What kinda real world impact on his status does not having “the benefit” make on where you rank him?

I don’t care where you put him for the record so I’m not looking to argue. I’m just curious.

I wasn't even talking in relation to other centers really, just broadly speaking, although that would be fine as well...I just haven't put any thought into it in terms of ranking centers.

Benefit of the doubt meaning, if an old head or people criticize how you play...fair or not...doesn't matter when you don't have the results to back up how you play. We all know that if Joel had played a dominant game 6 and won that series and then goes on to win a title while playing great....nobody is saying shit about his style taking too many 3's or whatever the take currently is.

To me, people get lost in the details sometimes. Joel is a dominant all-time great player...I don't see how anyone can dispute that. Debating how great is perfectly reasonable...and I think trying to find flaws in his specific approach to the game, while some might be valid, ends up missing that he just didn't play well enough to win. Skillset and approach to the game only go so far if you come up short in key moments and games in your career.

In terms of specific ranking of him so far, I don't know...maybe Ewing level...I'm not sure.

[SouBeachTalents]

I wasn't even talking in relation to other centers really, just broadly speaking, although that would be fine as well...I just haven't put any thought into it in terms of ranking centers.

Benefit of the doubt meaning, if an old head or people criticize how you play...fair or not...doesn't matter when you don't have the results to back up how you play. We all know that if Joel had played a dominant game 6 and won that series and then goes on to win a title while playing great....nobody is saying shit about his style taking too many 3's or whatever the take currently is.

To me, people get lost in the details sometimes. Joel is a dominant all-time great player...I don't see how anyone can dispute that. Debating how great is perfectly reasonable...and I think trying to find flaws in his specific approach to the game, while some might be valid, ends up missing that he just didn't play well enough to win. Skillset and approach to the game only go so far if you come up short in key moments and games in your career.
He really doesn't play like that in the playoffs, or he at least clearly doesn't match his regular season standards, similar to his running mate Harden.

[DMAVS41]

He really doesn't play like that in the playoffs, or he at least clearly doesn't match his regular season standards, similar to his running mate Harden.

It just depends on the standards...if the standards are "top 15 all-time"...then ok, I agree with you, but I don't think a player has to be in that class to be considered dominant or all-time great.

[SouBeachTalents]

It just depends on the standards...if the standards are "top 15 all-time"...then ok, I agree with you, but I don't think a player has to be in that class to be considered dominant or all-time great.
I feel like you REALLY undersell how much his play drops off in the playoffs, esp the last 2 years. He's averaged 30+ over the past 2 seasons, in the playoffs he's failed to crack even 24 ppg, in an era where we've seen 4 guys drop 50 in these playoffs alone and another score 45 on 80% over multiple games. A similar drop in production occurred in 2018 & 2019.

22/23 Regular season: 32/10/4 on 64%TS
22/23 Postseason: 24/10/2 on 58%TS

He's legitimately a different tier of player, and the bigger the game, the worse he gets. His last 2 elimination games

20/12/2 on 7/24
15/8/2 on 5/18

After yesterday's game he's officially reached Harden status for me, where he's consistently disappointed in the playoffs and needs to prove he can accomplish something of note in the postseason.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I feel like you REALLY undersell how much his play drops off in the playoffs, esp the last 2 years. He's averaged 30+ over the past 2 seasons, in the playoffs he's failed to crack even 24 ppg, in an era where we've seen 4 guys drop 50 in these playoffs alone and another score 45 on 80% over multiple games. A similar drop in production occurred in 2018 & 2019.

22/23 Regular season: 32/10/4 on 64%TS
22/23 Postseason: 24/10/2 on 58%TS

He's legitimately a different tier of player, and the bigger the game, the worse he gets. His last 2 elimination games

20/12/2 on 7/24
15/8/2 on 5/18

After yesterday's game he's officially reached Harden status for me, where he's consistently disappointed in the playoffs and needs to prove he can accomplish something of note in the postseason.

They were also 2-0 in the games he sat. :lol


Agree with your sentiment. He goes from MVP caliber player in the reg season to Julius Randle caliber in the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

I feel like you REALLY undersell how much his play drops off in the playoffs, esp the last 2 years. He's averaged 30+ over the past 2 seasons, in the playoffs he's failed to crack even 24 ppg, in an era where we've seen 4 guys drop 50 in these playoffs alone and another score 45 on 80% over multiple games. A similar drop in production occurred in 2018 & 2019.

22/23 Regular season: 32/10/4 on 64%TS
22/23 Postseason: 24/10/2 on 58%TS

He's legitimately a different tier of player, and the bigger the game, the worse he gets. His last 2 elimination games

20/12/2 on 7/24
15/8/2 on 5/18

After yesterday's game he's officially reached Harden status for me, where he's consistently disappointed in the playoffs and needs to prove he can accomplish something of note in the postseason.

I think you aren't understanding my point. You are actually making it...unless you think there is a fatal flaw in his skillset or approach to the game that prevents him from performing better in the playoffs.

So, that would be the first part...how much he drops off. I agree, again, that was my point...he needs to just play better...I view Joel as being capable of that, but not doing it for a variety of reasons....including letting the pressure get to him.

The second part, is whether or not one should consider what Joel has done in the entirety of his career to date warrants being called all-time great and dominant. That can be up to the individual, of course, but you say "Harden status" as if James Harden isn't one of the best players ever. Harden, who I'm not even a fan of, is clearly one of the best players ever...where will he ultimately rank...I don't know, but likely in the top 75 or higher.

At some point it is just semantics with some of this stuff.

My overall point was simply that I don't think there is some skillset flaw or approach to the game flaw that prevents Joel from playing a great game 6 and closing out the Celtics. I don't think he's perfect, of course, but how about just make more shots, play a bit harder, work harder on the glass, be a better leader...etc.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I think you aren't understanding my point. You are actually making it...unless you think there is a fatal flaw in his skillset or approach to the game that prevents him from performing better in the playoffs.

So, that would be the first part...how much he drops off. I agree, again, that was my point...he needs to just play better...I view Joel as being capable of that, but not doing it for a variety of reasons....including letting the pressure get to him.

The second part, is whether or not one should consider what Joel has done in the entirety of his career to date warrants being called all-time great and dominant. That can be up to the individual, of course, but you say "Harden status" as if James Harden isn't one of the best players ever. Harden, who I'm not even a fan of, is clearly one of the best players ever...where will he ultimately rank...I don't know, but likely in the top 75 or higher.

At some point it is just semantics with some of this stuff.

My overall point was simply that I don't think there is some skillset flaw or approach to the game flaw that prevents Joel from playing a great game 6 and closing out the Celtics. I don't think he's perfect, of course, but how about just make more shots, play a bit harder, work harder on the glass, be a better leader...etc.

There is a blatant flaw in his skillset in the playoffs, including defense. He lacks the burst in 1 on 1 situations to be a consistent half court scorer, and is EASILY shut down and forced into turnovers when doubled. He's not a good enough jump shooter yet relies on them because he cannot consistently score in the post.

Defensively he was abused with PnRs... literally abused. Go watch that game and see Tatum and Co. eating him alive.

It absolutely is a skill problem on top of a mental problem.

He is a slow lumbering turnover prone 7 footer who can't shoot well but relies on jump shots. His game is horrible for the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

There is a blatant flaw in his skillset in the playoffs, including defense. He lacks the burst in 1 on 1 situations to be a consistent half court scorer, and is EASILY shut down and forced into turnovers when doubled. He's not a good enough jump shooter yet relies on them because he cannot consistently score in the post.

Defensively he was abused with PnRs... literally abused. Go watch that game and see Tatum and Co. eating him alive.

It absolutely is a skill problem on top of a mental problem.

He is a slow lumbering turnover prone 7 footer who can't shoot well but relies on jump shots. His game is horrible for the playoffs.

I agree that he struggles with passing out of doubles and also agree he has some things to overcome mentally, but I don't think that or any of the other stuff you mention...are fatal flaws. Every player can improve in certain areas and no player is perfect.

Tatum and Co. were not eating him alive...in game 6, Tatum was playing one of the worst elimination games a star has played in NBA history. If Joel and Harden step up and close that game out...you aren't saying 80% of what you are right now.

That is my exact point, the specific criticism...and again, some of it is absolutely fair...is just noise to me because even granting all of it...Joel was a decent 4th qtr away from being in the conference finals and the favorite to make the NBA finals. If the take is...he's so fatally flawed that it would be unrealistic for him to drop 12 points in a home 4th qtr and grab a few more boards...to close out a series...then ok. I disagree with that take, but fair enough.

[90sgoat]

The truth is that big men are not as skilled as they used to be.

They all want to play like guards, while what they actually need is a short hook shot over both shoulders.

That's it.

It's embarassing that Embiid is an MVP and doesn't have a basic hook shot.

[bdonovan]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2301191952330388.jpeg

Very insightful commentary. Because Jokic shoots these strange off-balance shots, sometimes his fakes seem improbable but he could actually make that odd shot with his feet in the wrong place. It's the same thing with Curry on why his fakes are realistic because even though someone pretending to pick up the dribble 10 feet behind the line seems obvious, with him he'll actually do it and shoot it (and make it). Having an unothordox offensive game enhances one's ability to fake out the defender.