Did Russell Westbrook ruin the value of the triple double?

[1987_Lakers]

As long as I remember, the triple double was always seen as this huge accomplishment. People always admired Big O's triple double season and heard people say we will never see a person average a triple double again. Commentators/fans would get excited when a player was nearing a triple double, you even had a player brick a shot off his own net to try to secure a triple doubles years ago (think it was Ricky Davis).

But I feel ever since Westbrook had that season where he averaged a triple double people don't value it as much anymore. I mean, he had an incredible season, but people caught on and realized he wasn't as good as his numbers say. Jokic right now is basically averaging a triple double, but nobody is talking about it. Just feel it's not as cherished as it once was.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDtGHHnA9ms

[Im Still Ballin]

I don't know, but Russ was great that season. I think he set record numbers for Ben Taylor's box creation statistic. Imagine if he had better shooters!

[Im Still Ballin]

"Box Creation", designed by Ben Taylor Box Creation = SHOT CREATION, --- "an estimate for the number of open shots created for teammates (per 100 possessions)". Box Creation attempts to correct for "Rondo Assists" --- see methodology here by Ben Taylor

Note 1: The highest Box Creation of all-time goes to Russell Westbrook's 2017 season: an insane 21.2 Box Creation (15.9 per 75).

A few other historical examples:

- '07 Nash: 17.7 (13.3 per 75)
- '95 Stockton: 16.1 (12.1 per 75)
- '90 Magic: 16.0 (12.0 per 75)
- '16 Curry: 15.8 (11.9 per 75)

21.2 open shots for teammates created per game for Russell Westbrook in his MVP season.

:applause:

[StrongLurk]

It's more the ERA and NBA rules that devalued the trip-dub. Idc what anyone says, Westbrook was absolutely incredible his MVP year. He was actually far better that year than basically any other year in his career, especially as a shooter and clutch player. Also his team won like 75% of the time he had a trip-dub, so he wasn't necessarily putting up empty stats.

But yeah, it's moreso the current evolution to pace/space that truly helps Westbrook and of course the NBA rules neutering defense in the regular season over the last two decades.

[1987_Lakers]

21.2 open shots for teammates created per game for Russell Westbrook in his MVP season.

:applause:

Yea, but he also averaged a triple double 2-3 more seasons and most people didn't even have him as a top 10 player in some of those years.

[RRR3]

Like others have said Westbrook was a monster in 2017, it’s the years following it where his stats became empty.

[KNOW1EDGE]

No.

Why would a player playing really well and achieving great stats “ruin” the stat? Wtf?

[Im Still Ballin]

Like others have said Westbrook was a monster in 2017, it’s the years following it where his stats became empty.

He was still a valuable player up until the 2020 Bubble playoffs. His 2018, 2019, and 2020 regular seasons were solid. There were also the last 20 games in Washington.

2019 was the greatest disappointment IMO. 37-19 just prior to the all-star break. Finished 12-14 for a 49-33 record. Smoked in the first round by Portland.

[Spurs m8]

No worse than someone ruining the value of longevity stats by stat padding in the inflated stats era

[bison]

You guys come off so jaded sometimes. WB’s MVP year was a legit all time great season by an nba player. I don’t know how anyone would be unimpressed by that first triple double season. Westbrook would later drop off in efficiency while still putting the same stats, just emptier. It also hurt that he became a poor playoff performer. But it doesn’t take away from that first triple double season doing what everyone thought was impossible. I think it’s more the pace and lack of defense that has devalued the triple double, not any one player. Seems like any player can drop a triple double on any given night.

[AlternativeAcc.]

No.

Why would a player playing really well and achieving great stats “ruin” the stat? Wtf?

OPs point is completely valid.

Westbricks negative perception has completely altered the perception of the triple double.

If a garbage player like westbrook is the most relevant player when someone brings up "triple doubles" then inevitably the perceived value of the event is diminished.

[KNOW1EDGE]

OPs point is completely valid.

Westbricks negative perception has completely altered the perception of the triple double.

If a garbage player like westbrook is the most relevant player when someone brings up "triple doubles" then inevitably the perceived value of the event is diminished.

One could just as easily say the opposite, “Westbrook’s positive perception has completely altered the perception of the triple double. If an MVP/HOF player like Westbrook is the most relevant player when bringing up triple doubles then inevitably the perceived value of the event is emboldened.”

[AlternativeAcc.]

One could just as easily say the opposite, “Westbrook’s positive perception has completely altered the perception of the triple double. If an MVP/HOF player like Westbrook is the most relevant player when bringing up triple doubles then inevitably the perceived value of the event is emboldened.”

You could easily say that, but you'd look really stupid.

The perceived value of the event has gone down considerably. You can choose to ignore that if you please.

[KNOW1EDGE]

You could easily say that, but you'd look really stupid.

The perceived value of the event has gone down considerably. You can choose to ignore that if you please.

I could just as easily say that you could say that but you’d look stupid. The value of the event has gone up considerably. You can choose to ignore that if you please.

-you have no proof or evidence or quantifiable data backing up your claim. It’s just your opinion manifesting from your disdain of Westbrook that is shared by many basketball fans. It’s a silly claim to make.

[Spurs m8]

You guys come off so jaded sometimes. WB’s MVP year was a legit all time great season by an nba player. I don’t know how anyone would be unimpressed by that first triple double season. Westbrook would later drop off in efficiency while still putting the same stats, just emptier. It also hurt that he became a poor playoff performer. But it doesn’t take away from that first triple double season doing what everyone thought was impossible. I think it’s more the pace and lack of defense that has devalued the triple double, not any one player. Seems like any player can drop a triple double on any given night.

WB triggers their hormones

[AlternativeAcc.]

I could just as easily say that you could say that but you’d look stupid. The value of the event has gone up considerably. You can choose to ignore that if you please.

-you have no proof or evidence or quantifiable data backing up your claim. It’s just your opinion manifesting from your disdain of Westbrook that is shared by many basketball fans. It’s a silly claim to make.
acting shocked that a statistical event could possibly be screwed by a player and its perception changed while demanding "quantifiable data" is quite hilarious.

[Xiao Yao You]

was always an overrated feat. I was never real impressed with a Kidd triple double on 3-17 shooting personally

[bison]

WB triggers their hormones

Yep. That’s what having high estrogen levels will do to you.

[BarberSchool]

Westbrick could never ruin the value of the triple double for OTHER PLAYERS.

He just cheapened TF out of his own.

We all saw Adams boxing out, letting Russ come in and sweep up Steven's work for himself.

We all saw Westbrick NOT PASS AGAIN FOR THE REST OF THE GAME as soon as he got 10 ast.

We all saw so many 8-26 FG, 6 TO Westbrick triple double LOSSES those years.

We all saw what those squads collectively achieved against good teams, and in the postseason, when they actually made the post season.

Somebody painting a Flying Spur in PINK CAMO with Neon Green leather interior, doesn't RUIN everyone else's Flying Spur.

[8Ball]

No he did not.


But because his 3 point shooting is so awful his value doesn't translate as much into the modern NBA.

[RRR3]

He was still a valuable player up until the 2020 Bubble playoffs. His 2018, 2019, and 2020 regular seasons were solid. There were also the last 20 games in Washington.

2019 was the greatest disappointment IMO. 37-19 just prior to the all-star break. Finished 12-14 for a 49-33 record. Smoked in the first round by Portland.
Look at his RAPTOR scores.

[Im Still Ballin]

Look at his RAPTOR scores.

And? Other advanced statistics have him as an impact player in 2018, 2019, and even 2021 in Washington. His counting stats were huge in Houston; some of the best numbers he's ever done. Sometimes the statistics don't capture that. For instance, RAPTOR rates LeBron quite low over the past decade.

But you need to watch the games. Especially for a player like Russell Westbrook. His impact was there you're just choosing to ignore it.

Here's a good video from Ben Taylor in 2019:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zhBVMAjAmA


Russell Westbrook is one of the more polarizing figures in the NBA today. There's a common thought that his woeful shooting percentages kill the Thunder offense. But do they?

To answer this, we first need to stop and talk about his passing.


So, the question really isn't about Westbrook's shooting killing the Thunder offense, but instead how his inefficiencies reduce the massive value of his shot creation and passing.


His overall scoring efficiency is an unsettling eight percentage points below the league average. Yet despite it all the OKC offense is actually kind of good.

They post a 115 offensive rating with Westbrook on the floor, which is better than Philly with Embiid and Simmons and about a point behind Houston with Harden and Milwaukee with Giannis.

Westbrook's playmaking is just that valuable. He makes OKC competitive on offense even with those embarrassing shooting numbers.


He also has a symbiosis with offensive rebounders like Steven Adams. All of those drives served to scramble the defense and open up offensive rebounding windows which has yielded far better team efficiency on his own shots than those shooting percentages would indicate over the last three seasons. OKC's offensive rebounding percentage is significantly higher with Westbrook on the court.

Russell himself adds to this phenomenon by being the best rebounding guard in the league. All of this non-scoring value shows up in his impact metrics; metrics that incorporate plus/minus data like RPM and PIPM have him in the top 30 on offense this year and pure adjusted plus/minus has him right at the top of the league as an offensive force over the last two seasons.


Major one-number metrics view him somewhere between an all-star and an All-NBA player.

You know, I think Westbrook is often undersold by the analytics community because of his shooting and turnover numbers. But, his passing and creation bring massive value.

Where his shooting really concerns me this year is his complete inability to space the floor or threatened defenses without the ball. This can not only be exposed in certain playoff matchups but it's the type of ball-dominant offense that doesn't mesh with other great players. An unwarranted shot selection and awful shooting put a ceiling on most offenses.

So, well I don't buy that he's an offense killer or a middling defender, I can't go all-in on him either and thus view 2019 Russell Westbrook as a borderline all-NBA player.

[2qr3]

The achievement has become less impressive in the eyes of the public. Mainly because while impressive, unless it's being done by the best player in the league, the average person will eventually start to see it as something that's not out of this world. Almost like inflation, where the value of a currency becomes less. The public starts seeing it as something that's not as hard as they imagined 8 years ago. As something that's well in the laws of physics.

[ImKobe]

How does one player ruin the value of anything?

His numbers are a product of the modern NBA. He's an ATG athlete who can crash the boards & run the break with the best of them and he's had opportunities to dominate the ball on mediocre teams that led to him having these triple-double averages. It's not like his triple-doubles don't have any value, he has a 73.2% win rate when he gets to a triple-double and he's a +1274 overall on the court in those games. He's ahead of Big O and Kidd in win percentage in games where they had a triple-double. And mind you that Russ got most of his triple-doubles on mediocre teams so that win percentage is even more impressive.

Russ himself did not ruin anything, it's just that it's more common to get to a triple-double in a league where teams play smaller & where the pace is considerably higher when comparing to the previous era.