2023 Australian Open Final: GOAT Novak Djokovic vs. Chosen One Stefanos Tsitsipas

[ArbitraryWater]

Tune in, fellas.


The big one.


Can Djokovic win a record-tying 22nd slam, tying Nadal, distancing himself from Federer by one more, or can Tsitsipas win his first?

We have a big one on our hands.


If Djokovic wins, even for me as a Nadal fan, it will be near impossible to deny him of his GOAThood. I always point out how many slams Rafa was denied by injury when he was BETTER than Djokovic, but thats a tough argument many casuals dont like to entertain.

[diamenz]

what sport is this

[Nanners]

Novaxx joecovid is an inspiration to us all

[ArbitraryWater]

Here. We. Go

[Im Still Ballin]

The Djok might continue to win grand slams for another 3-5 years.

[SouBeachTalents]

That was NOT a good match.

[ShawkFactory]

Novak is the GOAT and it makes me sad.

Although Fed and Rafa even remotely in their primes make quick work of this field too.

[ArbitraryWater]

That was NOT a good match.


That was a very good match. Tsitsipas choking rid it of any intrigue and prolonged volume though.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Novak is the GOAT and it makes me sad.

Although Fed and Rafa even remotely in their primes make quick work of this field too.

Why does it make you sad?

Pretty cool story. Perennial third wheel until 2011 when he went God mode after alterations to his diet and preparations. Most well rounded player every.

[ArbitraryWater]

Why does it make you sad?

Pretty cool story. Perennial third wheel until 2011 when he went God mode after alterations to his diet and preparations. Most well rounded player every.


then was a run of the mill member from 2012-14 and actually bested by Nadal the later 2 years, and and rose back to the top when Rafa fe off the rankings.

Then got his 3rd winning window started in 2018.

Its a cool story and I can live with it and really like Djokovic,

but until 2015 Nadal was better than him year for year every single year but 2 (2011-12), and 2012 only because he missed the 2nd half of the year.

Rafa should have built up and even bigger gap but injuries denied him many times in which he was the best in the world at said time (most notably 2014 AO).

[ShawkFactory]

Why does it make you sad?

Pretty cool story. Perennial third wheel until 2011 when he went God mode after alterations to his diet and preparations. Most well rounded player every.

Because I love both Fed and Rafa. Obviously. Both of them are good dudes who don't take themselves too seriously and Novak is kind of a drip.

Rafa is the most physically dominant and Fed is the most talented and skilled I've ever seen. But Novak has such an absurd resiliency and preparation as you said.

[AlternativeAcc.]

then was a run of the mill member from 2012-14 and actually bested by Nadal the later 2 years, and and rose back to the top when Rafa fe off the rankings.

Then got his 3rd winning window started in 2018.

Its a cool story and I can live with it and really like Djokovic,

but until 2015 Nadal was better than him year for year every single year but 2 (2011-12), and 2012 only because he missed the 2nd half of the year.

Rafa should have built up and even bigger gap but injuries denied him many times in which he was the best in the world at said time (most notably 2014 AO).
Rafa was always my favorite and if healthy is the GOAT

Unfortunately health and durability is crucial. His aggressive style didn't help

At full health at their peaks I'd take Rafa if my life depended on it on any surface.

[ArbitraryWater]

Because I love both Fed and Rafa. Obviously. Both of them are good dudes who don't take themselves too seriously and Novak is kind of a drip.

Rafa is the most physically dominant and Fed is the most talented and skilled I've ever seen. But Novak has such an absurd resiliency and preparation as you said.

Im not sure I can still say that if his backhand holds up worse to either in CC exchanges. Of course you cant just go there time and time again (its the less exploitable side), it would be too predictable. But its a technically inferior / less stable shot.


Rafa was always my favorite and if healthy is the GOAT

Unfortunately health and durability is crucial. His aggressive style didn't help

At full health at their peaks I'd take Rafa if my life depended on it on any surface.

100% :pimp:

[ShawkFactory]

Im not sure I can still say that if his backhand holds up worse to either in CC exchanges. Of course you cant just go there time and time again (its the less exploitable side), it would be too predictable. But its a technically inferior / less stable shot.



100% :pimp:

I don't think it was a technical issue with Fed really though. He was just slightly less of a dog than Novak or Rafa and was more set in his ways. Didn't adjust like he should have both with the actual racket and mentally.

I guess the sentiment I have is that if all 3 are playing their best and it's a completely neutral surface he's tough to beat. I know grass isn't the best determinant for Rafa vs Fed in particular but Fed ate him alive with the backhand at Wimbledon in 2019. It's less stable, yes. But when it's on it was like if Shaq had that FT line hook shot going or if Lebron is hitting faders.

I'm comfortable with him being 3rd of the group but it's way closer than most acknowledge.

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't think it was a technical issue with Fed really though. He was just slightly less of a dog than Novak or Rafa and was more set in his ways. Didn't adjust like he should have both with the actual racket and mentally.

I guess the sentiment I have is that if all 3 are playing their best and it's a completely neutral surface he's tough to beat. I know grass isn't the best determinant for Rafa vs Fed in particular but Fed ate him alive with the backhand at Wimbledon in 2019. It's less stable, yes. But when it's on it was like if Shaq had that FT line hook shot going or if Lebron is hitting faders.

I'm comfortable with him being 3rd of the group but it's way closer than most acknowledge.


Yeah but I mean like literally, look at both BHs in sow-mo, Rafas stance and contact point and follow-through is more compact and stable...

Rog, he kind of goes on his toes a itte ike upwards, sighty off baance, follow through looks a little flappy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fVfy8KjHi4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp0i_F9Suvw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFwidKBUt9M

[ArbitraryWater]

vs

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iDVhNMT-bWE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_SnJPl4cz4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dQLP8wB9P8

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't think it was a technical issue with Fed really though. He was just slightly less of a dog than Novak or Rafa and was more set in his ways. Didn't adjust like he should have both with the actual racket and mentally.

I guess the sentiment I have is that if all 3 are playing their best and it's a completely neutral surface he's tough to beat. I know grass isn't the best determinant for Rafa vs Fed in particular but Fed ate him alive with the backhand at Wimbledon in 2019. It's less stable, yes. But when it's on it was like if Shaq had that FT line hook shot going or if Lebron is hitting faders.

I'm comfortable with him being 3rd of the group but it's way closer than most acknowledge.

Absolutely was very close.

We can isolate certain weeks and Feds peak level might be higher, but isolate slams and its hardly possible.

You cant really prove his superior peak level with anything other than random isolated weeks.

It didnt happen when they matched up at slams. 2019 WB could have been an argument for that. He was on his way to his first ever slam where he beat both Nadal and Djokovic.

[ShawkFactory]

I’ve never argued that Feds backhand is better than Rafa’s so I’m not sure the use of this.

Fed DID have the best serve of the bunch and his forehand was second to none as well. His biggest problem compared to the other two, as I’ve said is that when he met his match he usually would fold (very slightly) quicker. Just a product of his personality is suppose.

[ArbitraryWater]

I’ve never argued that Feds backhand is better than Rafa’s so I’m not sure the use of this.

Fed DID have the best serve of the bunch and his forehand was second to none as well. His biggest problem compared to the other two, as I’ve said is that when he met his match he usually would fold (very slightly) quicker. Just a product of his personality is suppose.


Agreed, and not just very slightly id say.

[ShawkFactory]

Agreed, and not just very slightly id say.

Yep. Which IMO is kind of a product of his greatness as a pure player having 20 slams without really have that killer mentality.

And he's beaten both of them plenty of times too. It's not like he's a full paper tiger beating up on Marco Baghdatis.

[PANTHALASSA]

Tune in, fellas.

The big one.

Can Djokovic win a record-tying 22nd slam, tying Nadal, distancing himself from Federer by one more, or can Tsitsipas win his first?

We have a big one on our hands.

If Djokovic wins, even for me as a Nadal fan, it will be near impossible to deny him of his GOAThood. I always point out how many slams Rafa was denied by injury when he was BETTER than Djokovic, but thats a tough argument many casuals dont like to entertain.


Just the way I like it.


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PoshDismalCob-size_restricted.gif

[dankok8]

LOL at taking Rafa over Novak outside of clay..

Novax Djocovid is the GOAT. Deal with it!

[ArbitraryWater]

LOL at taking Rafa over Novak outside of clay..

Novax Djocovid is the GOAT. Deal with it!

I would take Nadal in a peak for peak match-up at Wimbedon and the US Open.

Probaby not the Australian Open, but we did see a non-peak Nadal force a peak Djokovic to just about as close of a match as possibly could.

[dankok8]

I would take Nadal in a peak for peak match-up at Wimbedon and the US Open.

Probaby not the Australian Open, but we did see a non-peak Nadal force a peak Djokovic to just about as close of a match as possibly could.

Based on what would you take Rafa at WB and USO? Rafa is 9-22 against Novak outside of clay and since Novak entered his prime in 2011 Rafa is 2-15 against Novak on hard/grass. It's insanely one-sided.

[ArbitraryWater]

Based on what would you take Rafa at WB and USO? Rafa is 9-22 against Novak outside of clay and since Novak entered his prime in 2011 Rafa is 2-15 against Novak on hard/grass. It's insanely one-sided.

For starters, Rafa has more USO‘s and a winning H2H against Djokovic at the USO. That‘s an easy argument to make. I‘d take 2010/2013/2017/2019 on any Djokovic version but 2011, which I would still take 2010 over. 2011 Djokovic is like a different Djokovic (although I think current one is not too far off).

As far as Wimbledon goes, 2007 and 2008 Nadal went toe to toe with PEAK grass Federer. It‘s also no stretch to say 2010 Nadal had just improved from those versions. So I‘d take those 3 slightly ahead of 2011/2015 Djokovic, by a bit more over 2018 and 2022 Djokovic and by a lot over 2014/2019/2021 Djokovic.

[dankok8]

For starters, Rafa has more USO‘s and a winning H2H against Djokovic at the USO. That‘s an easy argument to make. I‘d take 2010/2013/2017/2019 on any Djokovic version but 2011, which I would still take 2010 over. 2011 Djokovic is like a different Djokovic (although I think current one is not too far off).

As far as Wimbledon goes, 2007 and 2008 Nadal went toe to toe with PEAK grass Federer. It‘s also no stretch to say 2010 Nadal had just improved from those versions. So I‘d take those 3 slightly ahead of 2011/2015 Djokovic, by a bit more over 2018 and 2022 Djokovic and by a lot over 2014/2019/2021 Djokovic.

Novak has a higher USO Win % and reached many more Finals (9 to 5) and Semifinals (12 to 8). This is more telling that just counting titles. 2011 Novak beat both Fed and Nadal back-to-back to win the USO which is just legendary stuff. He had to come back from 2 sets down against Fed then beat Nadal in four. 2011 Novak has a better claim than any version of Nadal. 2010 or 2013 Nadal maybe you can make a case but 2011 Nadal was healthy and couldn't beat Novak. No reason to think another version suddenly could.

WB is not even close. Novak since 2011 face Rafa twice at WB and won both times in 2011 and 2018. 7-2 in Titles, 8-5 in Finals, 11-8 in Semifinals. Win % is night and day in favor of Novak. Rafa beating a suffering Fed in 2008 has little bearing on this. Rafa lost to Fed in 2006, 2007 and 2019. Novak lost to Fed in 2012 and won in 2014, 2015 and 2019.

Again.. their H2H since 2011 is extremely lopsided. 15-2 in favor of Djokovic on grass and hard courts. Hard to favor Nadal anywhere outside of clay.

[ArbitraryWater]

Novak has a higher USO Win % and reached many more Finals (9 to 5) and Semifinals (12 to 8). This is more telling that just counting titles. 2011 Novak beat both Fed and Nadal back-to-back to win the USO which is just legendary stuff. He had to come back from 2 sets down against Fed then beat Nadal in four. 2011 Novak has a better claim than any version of Nadal. 2010 or 2013 Nadal maybe you can make a case but 2011 Nadal was healthy and couldn't beat Novak. No reason to think another version suddenly could.

WB is not even close. Novak since 2011 face Rafa twice at WB and won both times in 2011 and 2018. 7-2 in Titles, 8-5 in Finals, 11-8 in Semifinals. Win % is night and day in favor of Novak. Rafa beating a suffering Fed in 2008 has little bearing on this. Rafa lost to Fed in 2006, 2007 and 2019. Novak lost to Fed in 2012 and won in 2014, 2015 and 2019.

Again.. their H2H since 2011 is extremely lopsided. 15-2 in favor of Djokovic on grass and hard courts. Hard to favor Nadal anywhere outside of clay.


Youre mentioning a lot of things that have nothing to do with who you would take at their peak (for that you need to compare their best tournaments. And USO Djokovic falls greatly short outside of 2011. 2015 and 2018 have no claim as to being better than 2010/2013 Nadal, theyre not even better than 2013 Djokovic).

As far as the H2H, most of it comes from wins over Nadal during his off-form period 2015-16. literally half of the wins come from that period (6). 3 more wins came for Djokovic in late 2009, when Rafa amounted his longest top 10 losing streak. Ergo, the H2H is misleading.

"suffering Fed in 2008" is completely fabricated.

Federer had his best ever pre-Wimbedon tournament / Halle, not losing a set and then his best-ever run to the finals, again not losing a set.

He had never had such level / form entering a Wimbedon final. And you call that man "suffering", thats funny, but it doesnt align with the facts.

2011 Nadal clearly was nowhere near 2010 Nadal and its most evident when you view the BH in 2011. In fact, many thought Murray would beat him in the USO semis. Odds were pretty close.

Djokovic was healthy in 2012, that doesnt mean Im gonna pretend he was at his 2011 level, right?


Djokovics case is good enough man, so why the falsehoods and lack of context? Hate having to do these corrections.

[imdaman99]

Lol what makes tsitipas the chosen one? Is that who you're ready to align yourself with now that Rafa is near done? :biggums:
Sorry, he doesn't have it... I would even take Med over him even though he has a boring ass game. Z is actually the most talented of them 3 but he's also a headcase. Dude had his best chance against Thiem and blew it over and over.

Hope Alcaraz is not injury prone, he brings excitement. I have no problem calling Djokovic the goat... he's not really likeable and his game is less appealing than the other 2 but he is consistent in a robotic way. The only person that can beat him in this weakass era is Nadal at PC.

[ArbitraryWater]

Sinner/Rune are my guys.

Sinner choked. Rune got unlucky.

[dankok8]

Youre mentioning a lot of things that have nothing to do with who you would take at their peak (for that you need to compare their best tournaments. And USO Djokovic falls greatly short outside of 2011. 2015 and 2018 have no claim as to being better than 2010/2013 Nadal, theyre not even better than 2013 Djokovic).

As far as the H2H, most of it comes from wins over Nadal during his off-form period 2015-16. literally half of the wins come from that period (6). 3 more wins came for Djokovic in late 2009, when Rafa amounted his longest top 10 losing streak. Ergo, the H2H is misleading.

"suffering Fed in 2008" is completely fabricated.

Federer had his best ever pre-Wimbedon tournament / Halle, not losing a set and then his best-ever run to the finals, again not losing a set.

He had never had such level / form entering a Wimbedon final. And you call that man "suffering", thats funny, but it doesnt align with the facts.

2011 Nadal clearly was nowhere near 2010 Nadal and its most evident when you view the BH in 2011. In fact, many thought Murray would beat him in the USO semis. Odds were pretty close.

Djokovic was healthy in 2012, that doesnt mean Im gonna pretend he was at his 2011 level, right?


Djokovics case is good enough man, so why the falsehoods and lack of context? Hate having to do these corrections.

Ok 2011 Djokovic. What is the argument for any version of Nadal over him? 2011 Nadal only wasn't as good as 2010 Nadal because he was suddenly losing to prime Djokovic. Rafa was healthy in 2011.

2008 Fed had a disaster season the first half of the year. Losing to the likes of Stepanek, Fish and Roddick at major tournaments, players he would never lose to the previous four years. And baby Novak at 2008 AO SF just swept him aside. Taking his struggles into account, Rafa eeking out a win in 5 sets isn't that impressive. I mean it is impressive but not to the level of "Hey this guy is one of the best grasscourt players ever..." Not even close.

[ArbitraryWater]

Ok 2011 Djokovic. What is the argument for any version of Nadal over him? 2011 Nadal only wasn't as good as 2010 Nadal because he was suddenly losing to prime Djokovic. Rafa was healthy in 2011.

2008 Fed had a disaster season the first half of the year. Losing to the likes of Stepanek, Fish and Roddick at major tournaments, players he would never lose to the previous four years. And baby Novak at 2008 AO SF just swept him aside. Taking his struggles into account, Rafa eeking out a win in 5 sets isn't that impressive. I mean it is impressive but not to the level of "Hey this guy is one of the best grasscourt players ever..." Not even close.


Did you even read my shit? :lol


No one said 2011 Nadal wasnt heathy. He just wasnt as good as in 2010. 2010 is his best ever season, players dont normally play at the same level the foowing year of a peak. Thats why its a peak.

Neither did Djokovic in 2012.

Thats a very bad summary of the Federer we saw in that WB Final.

Again, his form was second to none.

It was his best ever form statisticay on grass. EVER.

Both Halle + pre-Final.

0 sets lost across those 11 matches. Just 3 tiebreaks encountered.

Federer was broken ZERO times in Halle.

Federer was broken TWICE in SIX matches through to the Wimbedon final.

Then Nadal broke him 4 times.

Federer was broken twice in his previous SIX matches...

And you have the gall to speak about irrelevant matches before the grass season. How dare you, dude? So intellectually dishonest or lazy.

Imagine people wouldnt make the effort I make or have the insight. Casuals would read your "oh Fish and Stepanek huh?" shit and believe Fed was out of form at Wimbledon..

You have a responsibility when you make public claims!



It was peak Federer. All the facts prove it.

And 2007 Nadal aready matched peak Federer at WB.

Djokovic has no 2 campaigns as impressive as those.


I mean you can split hairs about 2010/2013 USO Nadal and 2011 Djokovic, but both those Nadal versions lost ess sets and got broken less than 2011 USO Djokovic.

2010 Nadal was broken TWICE before the final.

2013 Nadal was broken ONCE before the final.

Djokovic simply was never close to being that clinical.

Few ever were.

Rafas main issue was injuries, thats why he has easily the best healthy conversion rate during his prime.

At his best, he was dominant on HC like Djokovic never was.

[ArbitraryWater]

For comparison,

2011 Djokovic was broken TWELVE times before the final.

2015 Djokovic was broken EIGHT times before the final, even though he had a virtual SF walkover against blister-ridden Ciic who only played for the fans. He was losing sets to Seppi, RBA, Lopez, but got away with a clown draw.

Then Federer had 23 BPs against him in the final.

2018 Djokovic was broken five times before the final.

[dankok8]

Did you even read my shit? :lol


No one said 2011 Nadal wasnt heathy. He just wasnt as good as in 2010. 2010 is his best ever season, players dont normally play at the same level the foowing year of a peak. Thats why its a peak.

Neither did Djokovic in 2012.

Thats a very bad summary of the Federer we saw in that WB Final.

Again, his form was second to none.

It was his best ever form statisticay on grass. EVER.

Both Halle + pre-Final.

0 sets lost across those 11 matches. Just 3 tiebreaks encountered.

Federer was broken ZERO times in Halle.

Federer was broken TWICE in SIX matches through to the Wimbedon final.

Then Nadal broke him 4 times.

Federer was broken twice in his previous SIX matches...

And you have the gall to speak about irrelevant matches before the grass season. How dare you, dude? So intellectually dishonest or lazy.

Imagine people wouldnt make the effort I make or have the insight. Casuals would read your "oh Fish and Stepanek huh?" shit and believe Fed was out of form at Wimbledon..

You have a responsibility when you make public claims!



It was peak Federer. All the facts prove it.

And 2007 Nadal aready matched peak Federer at WB.

Djokovic has no 2 campaigns as impressive as those.


I mean you can split hairs about 2010/2013 USO Nadal and 2011 Djokovic, but both those Nadal versions lost ess sets and got broken less than 2011 USO Djokovic.

2010 Nadal was broken TWICE before the final.

2013 Nadal was broken ONCE before the final.

Djokovic simply was never close to being that clinical.

Few ever were.

Rafas main issue was injuries, thats why he has easily the best healthy conversion rate during his prime.

At his best, he was dominant on HC like Djokovic never was.

Yea I read your posts and you said Nadal suddenly lost his backhand in 2011 compared to 2010. That makes no sense.

At 2010 WB Nadal didn't face neither Fed nor Djoko. And at the 2010 USO he faced Djoko coming off of an exhausting five-setter against Fed. Then in 2011 USO Djoko had another exhausting five-setter against Fed then beat Nadal anyways. You're fixated on 2008 Fed too much. I simply pointed out his struggles the first half of that season before WB. I have yet to hear a coherent argument for any version of Nadal over 2011 Djokovic.

Comparing 2010 and 2011 Nadal..

All tournaments:

2010 Nadal: 69-10 (87.3%) against the field, 2-0 against Novak (100%)
2011 Nadal: 69-9 (88.5%) against the field, 0-6 against Novak (0%)

Slams only:

2010 Nadal: 24-1 (96.0%) against the field, 1-0 against Novak (100%)
2011 Nadal: 23-1 (95.8%) against the field, 0-2 against Novak (0%)

In terms of sets lost 2010 Nadal lost 10 sets at slams against the field and 1 set against Novak.
In terms of sets lost 2011 Nadal lost 10 sets at slams against the field and 6 sets agaomst Novak.

There is virtually no difference in form between 2010 and 2011 Nadal against all other opponents. Only difference is Novak entered his prime and started beating Nadal. If that isn't proof that peak Novak > Peak Nadal I don't know what is.

[dankok8]

So what is your response? :lol

2010 and 2011 Nadal are practically identical outside of facing Djokovic.