Jokic or Shaq?

[iamgine]

Who'd you take as your franchise player?

[KNOW1EDGE]

/delete thread

[Im Still Ballin]

It's a good question. Some might disregard it, but it's a valid discussion. Nikola's talent is that good. And he's way more durable.

[j3lademaster]

I think Jokic is the best offensive center of all time, and up there as the best offensive player of all time, period; but Shaq is the proven winner. Always go with someone who's done it vs the unknown.

Admittedly, I am worried about Shaq's defense. The rim protection is great, and he isn't movable in the block, but he got shredded by good PnR teams in the 90's, and the PnR has only gotten deadlier with every team running 4 or 5 shooters. Not that Jokic is Rudy Gobert or anything, but he's probably proven himself to be the better defender against most modern offenses. Denver(in large part because of Jokic) averages an impressive 1.17 ppp while the worst team in the league, Houston, averages 1.08. If Shaq is shooting 50% from the line and only getting 1 ppp, that's problematic, especially since Shaq is probably your best rebounder shooting the ft. Otoh, a team that's in the penalty has to defend differently. We saw Kobe take advantage of this during the Shaq/Kobe era, namely against the Spurs in the playoffs; so we can see a Shaq team go small and run and gun when there's a lot of quarter left to play while the other team's in the penalty.

[SouBeachTalents]

I think Jokic is the best offensive center of all time, and up there as the best offensive player of all time, period; but Shaq is the proven winner. Always go with someone who's done it vs the unknown.

Admittedly, I am worried about Shaq's defense. The rim protection is great, and he isn't movable in the block, but he got shredded by good PnR teams in the 90's, and the PnR has only gotten deadlier with every team running 4 or 5 shooters. Not that Jokic is Rudy Gobert or anything, but he's probably proven himself to be the better defender against most modern offenses. Denver(in large part because of Jokic) averages an impressive 1.17 ppp while the worst team in the league, Houston, averages 1.08. If Shaq is shooting 50% from the line and only getting 1 ppp, that's problematic, especially since Shaq is probably your best rebounder shooting the ft. Otoh, a team that's in the penalty has to defend differently. We saw Kobe take advantage of this during the Shaq/Kobe era, namely against the Spurs in the playoffs; so we can see a Shaq team go small and run and gun when there's a lot of quarter left to play while the other team's in the penalty.
I would probably go with Shaq too, but I just really dislike this philosophy. If you swapped Shaq with Jokic's teams, I don't think there's any guarantee he wins a title. You give Jokic Kobe I'm sure they'd produce multiple titles together, esp since Jokic would be far more willing to defer to Kobe.

[post]

give jokic

penny kobe wade

level players

or don't

whatever

[Phoenix]

I would probably go with Shaq too, but I just really dislike this philosophy. If you swapped Shaq with Jokic's teams, I don't think there's any guarantee he wins a title. You give Jokic Kobe I'm sure they'd produce multiple titles together, esp since Jokic would be far more willing to defer to Kobe.

I'm not sure if Kobe between 2000-2002 had the leadership skills to be 'the' guy if paired with Jokic. Now Kobe from 2008 to 2010, who had matured as a leader/player? Definitely, if you consider that he won with Gasol as his number 2 and Jokic is clearly a few tiers higher than him.

[j3lademaster]

I would probably go with Shaq too, but I just really dislike this philosophy. If you swapped Shaq with Jokic's teams, I don't think there's any guarantee he wins a title. You give Jokic Kobe I'm sure they'd produce multiple titles together, esp since Jokic would be far more willing to defer to Kobe.What philosophy? That when you compare two guys who are comparable in impact, people tend to give the nod to the one who won a title? And I never said Jokic can't win, in fact I think he has a very high chance of getting a ring before he hangs it all up simply based on how good he is. But when we're comparing highly likely to evidence of someone actually doing it, I side with what actually happened.

And Kobe in the first championship run wasn't anything special, Shaq carried that team through and through. That run earned Shaq the 'MDE' title, averaging 31/15 in the playoffs in an era where the avg ppg for a team in 2000 was 97, and 110 in 2022. Very underrated because that title came with the name 'Kobe' attached to it.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm not sure if Kobe between 2000-2002 had the leadership skills to be 'the' guy if paired with Jokic. Now Kobe from 2008 to 2010, who had matured as a leader/player? Definitely, if you consider that he won with Gasol as his number 2 and Jokic is clearly a few tiers higher than him.
I meant more so deferring shots and touches than deferring who would be the leader of the team. It's very likely Jokic & Kobe could end up butting heads over who's the alpha of the team, but I think Kobe likely gets along better with Jokic than he did with Shaq.


What philosophy? That when you compare two guys who are comparable in impact, people tend to give the nod to the one who won a title? And I never said Jokic can't win, in fact I think he has a very high chance of getting a ring before he hangs it all up simply based on how good he is. But when we're comparing highly likely to evidence of someone actually doing it, I side with what actually happened.

And Kobe in the first championship run wasn't anything special, Shaq carried that team through and through. That run earned Shaq the 'MDE' title, averaging 31/15 in the playoffs in an era where the avg ppg for a team in 2000 was 97, and 110 in 2022. Very underrated because that title came with the name 'Kobe' attached to it.
True, Kobe was not quite a superstar yet in 2000, but he was still a top 10 player and certainly better than anyone Jokic's ever played with. But I also agree I wouldn't pick Jokic to replicate what Shaq did in 2000 either. As phenomenal as Jokic's currently playing, Shaq had a literal GOAT level season, and outside of Kobe's Game 4 heroics carried the Lakers nearly singlehandedly in the Finals.

[Phoenix]

I meant more so deferring shots and touches than deferring who would be the leader of the team. It's very likely Jokic & Kobe could end up butting heads over who's the alpha of the team, but I think Kobe likely gets along better with Jokic than he did with Shaq.




Ah I see, yeah from that standpoint I don't think there would be much conflict on that front. That said, I'm still inclined to believe Jokic pairs better with a more mature Kobe, just in terms of intangibles.

[Im Still Ballin]

Kobe was awesome in the early 2000s. Let's not try to reduce him as a player - he was a top 5 guy in '01, '02, and '03.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Tough call but Shaq proved multiple times to be by far the most dominant force in the playoffs. Obviously they haven't had equal rosters and Jokic carries mediocre teams better. You gotta go Shaq until we see Jokic do it on the biggest stage. This may be the year we see it.

[Axe]

Joker is versatile but shaq is more dominant.

[Phoenix]

Kobe was awesome in the early 2000s. Let's not try to reduce him as a player - he was a top 5 guy in '01, '02, and '03.

Saying the more mature version of Kobe pairs better with Jokic isn't reducing the younger version of him. It's like saying if you took 87 Jordan and dumped him in the 90's that the Bull still win 6 titles. There's alot of nuance about the game that's mastered between an early 20s and 30 year old version of the same player.

[Round Mound]

Shaq

[Im Still Ballin]

Saying the more mature version of Kobe pairs better with Jokic isn't reducing the younger version of him. It's like saying if you took 87 Jordan and dumped him in the 90's that the Bull still win 6 titles. There's alot of nuance about the game that's mastered between an early 20s and 30 year old version of the same player.

I'd argue the opposite. Kobe was a much better defender in the early 2000s, which is considerably more important in a pairing with Jokic. I'd take his athleticism and defense over his "leadership." His problematic shot selection never really changed. I don't think he matured or "figured it out" so much as his circumstances changed. The right roster of players and coaching staff.

Kobe became craftier with age, but that's because he had to. He didn't have the athleticism he had when he was younger. Kobe considered 2003 to be his peak for what it's worth. I don't remember where he said it, but I saw it somewhere a few years ago.

[bizil]

I would go with Diesel. Joker is the closest we've seen to a 7 foot center version of Larry Bird in many ways. When u combine scoring and passing as a package, he's the best offensive center ever. But Shaq could alter a defense physical dominance wise in ways no other center in history could. This is a case where the more skilled or better all around player ISN'T the better player. WITH THAT SAID, Jokic for that matter peak-prime wise is top 5 caliber center ever in my opinion. Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, and Dream are the only centers FOR SURE I would take over him peak-prime wise.

[HylianNightmare]

Shaq if we are playing anytime before like 2010

[NugzFan]

Who'd you take as your franchise player?

shaq is 50

give me jokic

[Im Still Ballin]

I would go with Diesel. Joker is the closest we've seen to a 7 foot center version of Larry Bird in many ways. When u combine scoring and passing as a package, he's the best offensive center ever. But Shaq could alter a defense physical dominance wise in ways no other center in history could. This is a case where the more skilled or better all around player ISN'T the better player. WITH THAT SAID, Jokic for that matter peak-prime wise is top 5 caliber center ever in my opinion. Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, and Dream are the only centers FOR SURE I would take over him peak-prime wise.

Good player comp.

[Phoenix]

I'd argue the opposite. Kobe was a much better defender in the early 2000s, which is considerably more important in a pairing with Jokic. I'd take his athleticism and defense over his "leadership." His problematic shot selection never really changed. I don't think he matured or "figured it out" so much as his circumstances changed. The right roster of players and coaching staff.

Kobe became craftier with age, but that's because he had to. He didn't have the athleticism he had when he was younger. Kobe considered 2003 to be his peak for what it's worth. I don't remember where he said it, but I saw it somewhere a few years ago.

2000 era Kobe defensively may be a better fit with Jokic if we're playing by 2000 rules that actually lets you play defense. 2000 Kobe in 2023 isn't playing 2000 Kobe defense. Depends on what era we're pairing the two of them, both versions of Kobe would be better offensively in this era but defensively not really.

As for his peak being 2003, there are versions of players that may 'fit' better with other players even if that player may be a slightly worse version of himself( however you'd define it). 2003 Kobe may have been more of a 'tour de force' than 2008 Kobe but that version was more likely to go off-script to prove himself on an individual level than 2008 Kobe, who had better game management, was more of a team player relative to early 2000's, and was actually better defensively than he was in the mid 2000's between Shaq leaving and Gasol arriving. That version of Kobe paired with Jokic may produce better team results even if he was 85% of the player he was individually in 2003.

[StrongLurk]

Shaq for now...Jokic deserves more time to prove himself

[sbw19]

Shokic.

As of now? Shaq no question. But winning changes perceptions. Give Jokic time to prove he belongs.

[ArbitraryWater]

I would probably go with Shaq too, but I just really dislike this philosophy. If you swapped Shaq with Jokic's teams, I don't think there's any guarantee he wins a title. You give Jokic Kobe I'm sure they'd produce multiple titles together, esp since Jokic would be far more willing to defer to Kobe.


if Jokic "deters" to Kobe, theyre not winning.

[red1]

/delete thread

:oldlol:


they dont know.

[PANTHALASSA]

Shaq still for now.

[post]

jokic or russell

one played with 75 hall of famers 100 years ago

[iamgine]

I don't get the 'proven winner' argument. You give anyone enough talent they would be able to win with some luck. What does that actually prove?

[Im Still Ballin]

I don't get the 'proven winner' argument. You give anyone enough talent they would be able to win with some luck. What does that actually prove?

It's a dumb way to look at things. The best player Jokic has played with is Jamal Murray: a borderline all-star.

[HoopologyPhD]

Shaq being severely underrated on here, at his peak was strong argument for GOAT. Jokic makes his teammates better, Shaq was the team. Embiid can guard Jokic easily and hold him to ~20 ppg. Nobody in the league could check Shaq during his prime.

[Xiao Yao You]

Jokic is more my type of player

[hold this L]

I think Jokic is the best offensive center of all time, and up there as the best offensive player of all time, period; but Shaq is the proven winner. Always go with someone who's done it vs the unknown.

Admittedly, I am worried about Shaq's defense. The rim protection is great, and he isn't movable in the block, but he got shredded by good PnR teams in the 90's, and the PnR has only gotten deadlier with every team running 4 or 5 shooters. Not that Jokic is Rudy Gobert or anything, but he's probably proven himself to be the better defender against most modern offenses. Denver(in large part because of Jokic) averages an impressive 1.17 ppp while the worst team in the league, Houston, averages 1.08. If Shaq is shooting 50% from the line and only getting 1 ppp, that's problematic, especially since Shaq is probably your best rebounder shooting the ft. Otoh, a team that's in the penalty has to defend differently. We saw Kobe take advantage of this during the Shaq/Kobe era, namely against the Spurs in the playoffs; so we can see a Shaq team go small and run and gun when there's a lot of quarter left to play while the other team's in the penalty.

This is a crazy statement. You can take 3-4 seasons from Shaq in the playoffs and they're better than anything Jokic has ever done offensively. And Jokic is also horrible in the P&R in the playoffs. CP3 and Steph turned him into a pylon for two straight seasons.

He's an amazing player but statements like this are absolutely asinine. :facepalm

[j3lademaster]

This is a crazy statement. You can take 3-4 seasons from Shaq in the playoffs and they're better than anything Jokic has ever done offensively. And Jokic is also horrible in the P&R in the playoffs. CP3 and Steph turned him into a pylon for two straight seasons.

He's an amazing player but statements like this are absolutely asinine. :facepalmJokic has the highest +/- of all time. He's currently averaging 25/11/10 on 63/39/83. It's absolutely ridiculous. Saying he DOESN'T have a case is absolutely asinine.

And I mentioned Shaq getting destroyed by a less advanced PnR. The stockton/ Malone PnR was mostly a 2man game, which is much easier to defend. As I said, Shaq's weakness on defense was never paint-related, it's that he's a lazy hedger and is unwilling to close out on shooters. Which would be exposed even worse today, namely against a team like... the Warriors in the example you used, right? Jokic is much more willing to do that. And it's not like I tried to name Jokic as some all-nba defender, I think it's close where I give Jokic a slight edge simply due to his willingness to try compared to Shaq.

[Overdrive]

I honestly couldn't tell. Both are fantastic players, but the NBA is so different now then from even 2010. I couldn't see how Jokic would do in Shaq's career path or Shaq in Jokic's.

I don't think Jokic would win that 2000 chip if you just dropped him into that team, but given time and build chemistry I could see it. Trade current Jokic for 2001 Shaq? I could absolutely see them winning a few.

I have no clue what Shaq would do in this era.

[Im Still Ballin]

I honestly couldn't tell. Both are fantastic players, but the NBA is so different now then from even 2010. I couldn't see how Jokic would do in Shaq's career path or Shaq in Jokic's.

I don't think Jokic would win that 2000 chip if you just dropped him into that team, but given time and build chemistry I could see it. Trade current Jokic for 2001 Shaq? I could absolutely see them winning a few.

I have no clue what Shaq would do in this era.

The idealized fantasy would have Shaq demolishing this era. He definitely would, but he'd bring the same baggage he brought in the '90s and '00s. The immaturity, the poor free throw shooting, the laziness, the unwillingness to come up high to defend on a screen.

His impact on the game would probably be the same more or less. More exploitable on defense but more dominant on offense.

[Overdrive]

The idealized fantasy would have Shaq demolishing this era. He definitely would, but he'd bring the same baggage he brought in the '90s and '00s. The immaturity, the poor free throw shooting, the laziness, the unwillingness to come up high to defend on a screen.

His impact on the game would probably be the same more or less. More exploitable on defense but more dominant on offense.

Pretty much could be this, but maybe his offense wouldn't even be as dominant. The dominant post players these days can all shoot atleast midrange jumpers. There's no modern precedence for a player that only operates at the basket or does jump hooks.

[j3lademaster]

The idealized fantasy would have Shaq demolishing this era. He definitely would, but he'd bring the same baggage he brought in the '90s and '00s. The immaturity, the poor free throw shooting, the laziness, the unwillingness to come up high to defend on a screen.

His impact on the game would probably be the same more or less. More exploitable on defense but more dominant on offense.You can make the argument he's more exploitable offensively, at least down the stretch of games. PPP from 2000 ranged from .92-1.06(worst team to best), this year it's 1.08-1.17; which doesn't look good for hack-a-Shaq.

[Im Still Ballin]

You can make the argument he's more exploitable offensively, at least down the stretch of games. PPP from 2000 ranged from .92-1.06(worst team to best), this year it's 1.08-1.17; which doesn't look good for hack-a-Shaq.

That's a good point. A very good point.

[Overdrive]

You can make the argument he's more exploitable offensively, at least down the stretch of games. PPP from 2000 ranged from .92-1.06(worst team to best), this year it's 1.08-1.17; which doesn't look good for hack-a-Shaq.

Hack-a-shaq has two problems:

Shaq iirc led the league atleast once in and1s. So he'll score quite some points despite being fouled.
Let's say he doesn't score an and1 even once and only shoots fts. He's still score 1,06 ppp over his career. Now add his fg% and he'll be among the league leaders.
Teams can't foul infinitely. It already put problems on teams back then who needed bodies to throw at him. Also leaving them in foul trouble. A simple reach would lead to some better shooters having fts 4 minutes into the 4th quarter.
Also the "new" intentional foul rules would help Shaq.

[8Ball]

Jokic.

[dankok8]

You can make the argument he's more exploitable offensively, at least down the stretch of games. PPP from 2000 ranged from .92-1.06(worst team to best), this year it's 1.08-1.17; which doesn't look good for hack-a-Shaq.

This is a very good point. With much higher league average efficiency, Shaq's free throw shooting now becomes a much greater liability. However that may be cancelled out by the fact that modern teams don't have a lot of utility bigs to make fouls. They could stock up on such bigs but then they would lose a step offensively themselves by ruining their spacing. Lumbering centers are almost obsolete in today's game.

[hold this L]

Jokic has the highest +/- of all time. He's currently averaging 25/11/10 on 63/39/83. It's absolutely ridiculous. Saying he DOESN'T have a case is absolutely asinine.

And I mentioned Shaq getting destroyed by a less advanced PnR. The stockton/ Malone PnR was mostly a 2man game, which is much easier to defend. As I said, Shaq's weakness on defense was never paint-related, it's that he's a lazy hedger and is unwilling to close out on shooters. Which would be exposed even worse today, namely against a team like... the Warriors in the example you used, right? Jokic is much more willing to do that. And it's not like I tried to name Jokic as some all-nba defender, I think it's close where I give Jokic a slight edge simply due to his willingness to try compared to Shaq.
Saying Jokic is a better defender than Shaq is moronic. And we don't know exactly how players in previous eras would react in this era, you can't just copy/paste players and expect them to play 1:1 as they did in their time. What he's doing offensively this season is amazing, but it means **** all if he gets shit on like he did both of the last post seasons. He was humiliated especially in that Suns series, where old man Chris was crushing him.

If you want to say look at what he's doing for the regular season, then yeah that's fair. Overall? That's idiotic and wrong.

[j3lademaster]

Hack-a-shaq has two problems:

Shaq iirc led the league atleast once in and1s. So he'll score quite some points despite being fouled.
Let's say he doesn't score an and1 even once and only shoots fts. He's still score 1,06 ppp over his career. Now add his fg% and he'll be among the league leaders.
Teams can't foul infinitely. It already put problems on teams back then who needed bodies to throw at him. Also leaving them in foul trouble. A simple reach would lead to some better shooters having fts 4 minutes into the 4th quarter.
Also the "new" intentional foul rules would help Shaq.No one applies hack-a-Shaq all game. Not back then, and they certainly wouldn't now. If I'm coaching, I'm doing it to stop a run. With the volatility of the 3, comes volitility in scoring. One team goes on a 15 pt run, and the other team swings back with a run of their own. I'm going to foul Shaq whenever I can and I'm doing it on the entry pass. Your run is probably going to be Shaq passing the ball out of a double in the post and swinging to the open man. Most likely. Then with your best rebounder shooting the ft, the likeliness of you recovering an offensive rebound are odds I'm willing to live with. I'm not going to let you end a quarter on a run, that's for sure.

[j3lademaster]

Saying Jokic is a better defender than Shaq is moronic. And we don't know exactly how players in previous eras would react in this era, you can't just copy/paste players and expect them to play 1:1 as they did in their time. What he's doing offensively this season is amazing, but it means **** all if he gets shit on like he did both of the last post seasons. He was humiliated especially in that Suns series, where old man Chris was crushing him.

If you want to say look at what he's doing for the regular season, then yeah that's fair. Overall? That's idiotic and wrong.


This is a crazy statement. You can take 3-4 seasons from Shaq in the playoffs and they're better than anything Jokic has ever done offensively. And Jokic is also horrible in the P&R in the playoffs. CP3 and Steph turned him into a pylon for two straight seasons.

He's an amazing player but statements like this are absolutely asinine. :facepalm So did you give up on arguing the offensive part, realizing what you said is dumb? Asking since that's what you originally highlighted.

And as far as


And we don't know exactly how players in previous eras would react in this era, you can't just copy/paste players and expect them to play 1:1 as they did in their time.

So it's dumb to speculate? We're literally comparing 2 very different styles of centers from 2 very different eras. I can't just assume Shaq would be any different now without some kind of supporting evidence to go off of. Was he not lazy hedging the ballhandler on PnR's? Closing out on shooters? was that not what we saw with our eyes, in the real world.

However, the modern PnR, especially run by elite pg's like Cp3 are deadlier and more advanced than what Shaq faced, the best example being 1998 Utah. You don't agree? Then elaborate.

And Steph and CP3 pnr's make ever big look stupid. CP3 is one of the goat pure pg's and Steph is probably the greatest offensive threat the game has ever seen, and they're surrounded by offensive players more competent than malone and stockton's next 3 guys(11 ppg 42% Hornacek, 11ppg Russell... and Howard Eisley?). Jokic in 2022 had a dpm of 6.6 and a D rating of 105 in a league where the worst team ppg was 95 and the best was 113, while Shaq had a dpm of 1.66 dpm in 2000 with a d rating of 95 where the worst and best teams avg 85 ppg to the best 105ppg. Jokic is 11th in D rating of 109.6 this season, to put that in perspective Giannis is leading so far with 107.4. And I'm not even necessarily putting him over Shaq defensively, I'm saying both are flawed on that end but I give the nod to Jokic because he's more willing than Shaq to hedge and close out on shooters, which is more important than ever. And that's somehow a moronic statement? But yes, Chris Paul cooked him in the pick and roll. Again, not claiming this guy is an all nba defender.

Now, tell me why you think Shaq completely demolishes Jokic as a defender in modern era. So much so that it's 'moronic' to put Jokic slightly over him.

[j3lademaster]

This is a very good point. With much higher league average efficiency, Shaq's free throw shooting now becomes a much greater liability. However that may be cancelled out by the fact that modern teams don't have a lot of utility bigs to make fouls. They could stock up on such bigs but then they would lose a step offensively themselves by ruining their spacing. Lumbering centers are almost obsolete in today's game.Yeah, I think that's fair. Some 6'9" 300 lbs scrubs get a payday.

[1987_Lakers]

This is a crazy statement.

I don't think it's a crazy statement at all. Jokic has a great argument for GOAT offensive center.

[Axe]

If you want to make impact these days, you need someone who's versatile. Joker fits that role.

[Round Mound]

Shaq today would recieve more fouls in the paint than any center ever. That probably would have foreced him to become a better ft shooter.

[kawhileonard2]

give jokic

penny kobe wade

level players

or don't

whatever

He couldn't even beat Portland with Jamal Murray with HCA.

[SouBeachTalents]

He couldn't even beat Portland with Jamal Murray with HCA.
How'd he do against the Clippers the following year?

[kawhileonard2]

How'd he do against the Clippers the following year?

In front of fans and on actual stadiums or made up places?

[j3lademaster]

Shaq today would recieve more fouls in the paint than any center ever. That probably would have foreced him to become a better ft shooter.shaq averaged 9.3 ft attempts for his career, including 10 seasons averaging 10+, peaking at 13 per game. Just to put this in perspective, KAJ had like 6 ft per game for his career and never averaged double digits, and Hakeem was similar. Shaq already shot a lot, if he was going to become a better ft shooter he would have. What, do the perimeter friendly rules of this era help ft shooting or something?

[Mask the Embiid]

Jokic.

https://i.postimg.cc/kGkXWz2w/IMG-2317.gif

[j3lademaster]

Mast the Embiid saved this thread, only for Joker to win a title that year and literally SAT on this shit for another entire year to bump when it's convenient. Fvcking loser.

[elementally morale]

Mast the Embiid saved this thread, only for Joker to win a title that year and literally SAT on this shit for another entire year to bump when it's convenient. Fvcking loser.

Let him have a good day, I guess. These are his biggest achievements in his life.