My issues with Shaq as an "all-time" great

[John8204]

I don't have Shaq in my top twenty, apparently this is a big enough deal for people to bring this up over and over again. Here are my ten reasons Shaq isn't a GOAT.

#1 - His rebounding numbers. Shaq is 15th in rebounds, he's allegedly the greatest most dominant big of all-time yet he's behind low tier guys like Dwight Howard, Walt Bellamy, Kevin Garnett, and Wes Unseld. 4 Centers that I have in the top 5 are also top 5 in this stat (Wilt, Moses, Bill, and Kareem) the other center I rank in the top five George Mikan average 13.4 RPG, Shaq only averaged 10.

#2 - His competition, Shaq's greatest accomplishment is his rings as he has four of them. He beat The Indiana Pacers, Philadelphia 76ers, New Jersey Nets, and Dallas Mavericks. Only Dallas with Dirk ever won a ring (thanks to a 37 year old Jason Kidd joining the team). His teams that won featured Kobe and Dwayne Wade along with a who's who list of supporting elite role players. Head to Head he lost to Hakeem Olajuwon's Rockets and Ben Wallaces Pistons.

#3 - He never averaged 30PPG in a season, once again the argument for Shaq is that he was the most dominant player in NBA history. Yet dozens of players have managed to hit the 30PPG threshold and Shaq never did...this was a driving force in his failure to win multiple MVP's.

#4 - He only has a single MVP, while Kobe was likely held back from winning the award because of his rape charge what's Shaq's excuse? He wasn't really competing for the MVP in an era when they piled on guys like Lebron, Jordan, Bird, Magic, or Wilt. The race was open every year and yet for some reason he was never respected enough by the media to get the award more than once.

#5 - The Sacramento Kings Series - 4 rings, 3 Finals MVP's you can remove two of those points after what was the worst called series in NBA history...also

#6 - The Portland Trailblazers Series - Another fixed series...one player benefited from two of the shadiest series in NBA history. The NBA also sabotaged the FBI investigation over game fixing we don't know how many refs would have gone down in Tim was able to wear a wire.

#7 - His weight, the NBA is filled with many great's none of them weighed 400lbs. The man had little self control and discipline plenty of players have weaknesses but how many of them had to do with food.

#8 - His ego, the Magic were a great team and a nice destination for players. Had he stayed on the team that drafted him he would have had great players come over the years to play with the big man. Well he left the Magic and followed Jerry West to Los Angeles who put together a championship level squad for Shaq...he could have stayed in Los Angeles and won 4-5-6 but he couldn't get along with Kobe. So he bounces over to Pat Riley and the team he built up in Miami wins a single title and I guess not believing he could beat the Celtics and Lebron he runs to the Phoenix Suns to play under D'antoni and try and beat Kobe...flops horribly. Then he ring chases with the teams that were better than him...Cleveland and Boston fails to win as a bench player. Shaq's a front runner who when his feelings got hurt he left a dynasty. I don't respect players that leave rings on the table.

#9 - His contemporaries....was Shaq better than KG? Nowitzki? Duncan? or Kobe? Look at Allen Iverson taking a team to the finals with far less talent than any season Shaq played. Jason Kidd did the same thing, won a chip when he was old but maintained his same level of productivity. Is there an argument for Shaq over Jordan and Hakeem? How about Duncan and Kobe? We saw how poorly he performed during his career even though he had all that talent, all of those calls, and all of that raw natural ability.

#10 - The changing of the rules/build of teams....Shaq only made 50% of his free throws so the league changed the rules to help him out. Shaq didn't have to play against the great centers of the 80's/70's/60's. Not a single center cracked the top 75 after Shaq.

Many of you think Shaq's great good for you...I don't I think he was very good. I believe in judging players based on their contemporaries in position and generation so for me Shaq not a high ranked player all-time.

[Baller789]

^only one who didn't actually watch prime Shaq would say this.

[GimmeThat]

as long as the spot up shooter Earvin Johnson is beneath him on your list, I'm good.

[John8204]

^only one who didn't actually watch prime Shaq would say this.

Well you would be wrong....I would say he never had a "prime" he just had good seasons and bad seasons throughout his career.

[Spurs m8]

Well you started watching basketball about 14 months ago...so that's fine

[Baller789]

Well you started watching basketball about 14 months ago...so that's fine

:lol

[Axe]

I hope this opinion thread about him wasn't made just because you respect kobe a lot as a player.

[John8204]

I hope this opinion thread about him wasn't made just because you respect kobe a lot as a player.

No I made it because people keep bringing up my dislike for Shaq and I would like to see if anyone could actually argue the points and facts. Or if they just do the same dumbass comments.

[coastalmarker99]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9VxhjAAUDk


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMERbM6ek6Y


1 Shaq had a Goat peak from 2000 to 2002 that very few in NBA history have ever matched.

2 Shaq clearly was robbed of winning the MVP Award in 2001.

3 How loaded were Shaq's teams?


Let's take a look at how his teams fared without him...The 96' Magic managed to stay afloat when he was out but that was the exception and took an MVP-caliber campaign by Penny (he was 3rd in MVP voting that year--ahead of Hakeem and Pippen).

In 97' they replaced Shaq with a 17/10 center and fell to 45-37 and were bounced in the first round, despite an epic series from Penny.

The 2000-2002 Lakers were 13-12 with Kobe, without Shaq.

How did they do with Shaq, without Kobe? 25-6.

How about Miami without Shaq?

2005: 6-3
2006: 10-13
2007: 19-23

In 2007 Wade missed considerable time.

How did Miami do with Shaq, without Wade? 16-8.

How about Miami with Wade, without Shaq? 18-17.

You can do this over and over again for Shaq. The fact is his teams were average without him.

Even when his superstar wings were out Shaq kept the team performing at an elite level; when he was out both Kobe and Wade failed to do the same.

Penny was not able to do it in 97'.

Also, Shaq's longevity is so underrated on this site and many others.

Starting during his rookie year until 2004-05, Shaq put up the following stats:

23/14/2/1/4 on 56%

29/13/2/1/3 on 60%

29/11/3/1/2 on 58%

27/11/3/1/2 on 57%

26/13/3/1/3 on 56%

28/11/2/1/2 on 58%

26/11/2/1/2 on 58%

30/14/4/1/3 on 57%

29/13/4/1/3 on 57%

27/11/3/1/2 on 58%

28/11/3/1/2 on 57%

22/12/3/1/3 on 58%

23/10/3/1/2 on 60%

And in 2005-06, he put up 20/9/2/0/2 on 60% in only about 31 MPG.

[Wardell Curry]

#9 - His contemporaries....was Shaq better than KG? Nowitzki? Duncan? or Kobe? Iverson?

Yes, yes, probably, yes, yes.

Uncle Timmy is the only debatable name on that list and Uncle Timmy also happens to possibly be the most underrated all time great in the history of the NBA because he wasn't flashy and he kept his mouth shut.

[ImKobe]

Shaq wasn't as big of a force on D as someone with his athletic ability should have been apart from the '00 season/POs. Teams exploited him in the P&R when he lost a step after '02 and he put up role player numbers in the '06 Finals (14/10, 29% FT shooting lol). He played with 2 of the 3 greatest wing players in NBA history at the time to win his rings. He also failed to win with prime Nash and Lebron and he even tried to chase rings in Boston but looked washed and got injured on top of it. His legacy is definitely boosted by those 3 FMVPs but the truth is that the East was a joke and KB was the better player when they won in 2001.

As far as the rigging allegations go.. Kings and Blazers both had multiple chances to win those series and choked. People only talk about Game 6 because of the bad calls that went in favor of LA but overlook all the chances the Kings had to put them away in Game 4 and Game 7.

Blazers flat out choked in that Game 7. Kobe beat Pippen 1 on 1 over & over again to win that game at the end. If you want to use the Portland series against Shaq then you should point out that he was pedestrian in Game 7 and Phil told his team to "forget about Shaq" while KB led them in pts, rebs, asts & blks in the biggest game of the season.

Kings left Horry wide open on a game-winning 3 in Game 4. There were some questionable calls at the end of Game 5 where it looked like Webber lost the ball out of bounds yet the refs call it Kings ball, and then they get away with a hard screen for a Bibby GW that could have easily been called in favor of LA if they wanted. Then on the next play KB get fouled on his GW attempt, no call. Peja airballed a wide open corner 3 at the end of the 4th in Game 7 that could have won them the series. After Peja's airball Shaq goes to the line and misses a FT so the Lakers lead by two, and they call a soft foul on KB that helps get them to OT and they still lose. And Chris Webber blatantly held Shaq when they tried to get him the ball on the next play and they didn't call it. If the league was really pushing hard for the Lakers to win that series, why were so many bad calls going both ways?

And Kings could have won Game 6 even with those bad calls, but they shot worse from the FT line than Shaq (18/25 for Kings vs 13/17 for Shaq). Peja and Webber combined for 3/8 from the line which I'd call a choke considering Peja's a borderline 90% FT shooter and Webber was ~75% on the season as well.

[GimmeThat]

there might be a misconception that his FGA all came near the rim, when .416% of it came from between 3-10 feet. as an energy guy goes, an all time great bail out option when your play just doesn't develope. the hate on Clint Capela is unreal.

[SATAN]

There will never be another Shaq. Give him credit. He was an absolute beast.

[John8204]

2 Shaq clearly was robbed of winning the MVP Award in 2001.



Iverson had a 30PPG season leading the 76ers to the best record in the East while the Lakers were a 2 seed.




As far as the rigging allegations go.. Kings and Blazers both had multiple chances to win those series and choked. People only talk about Game 6 because of the bad calls that went in favor of LA but overlook all the chances the Kings had to put them away in Game 4 and Game 7.

Blazers flat out choked in that Game 7. Kobe beat Pippen 1 on 1 over & over again to win that game at the end. If you want to use the Portland series against Shaq then you should point out that he was pedestrian in Game 7 and Phil told his team to "forget about Shaq" while KB led them in pts, rebs, asts & blks in the biggest game of the season.


Eh...we're talking about two close out games/series that were dubiously officiated. Could the Blazers and Kings turn around and win those game sevens sure. But lets put that aside for a second and ask a larger question how dominant was Shaq that he needed ref help and seven games to beat the Blazers and Kings. We're not talking about dynasties we're talking about good teams.

[ImKobe]

Iverson had a 30PPG season leading the 76ers to the best record in the East while the Lakers were a 2 seed.



Eh...we're talking about two close out games/series that were dubiously officiated. Could the Blazers and Kings turn around and win those game sevens sure. But lets put that aside for a second and ask a larger question how dominant was Shaq that he needed ref help and seven games to beat the Blazers and Kings. We're not talking about dynasties we're talking about good teams.

Bad calls go on both sides all the time man. I know the Kings got the short end of the stick in Game 6 but that wasn't the case in the 6 other games in that series. Kings shot 19 more FTs in that WCF and had less fouls called on them overall, but they only shot 65.7% (They were a 75% FT shooting team in the RS, their WCF FT% would have been ~4% below the worst FT shooting team in the league that year) from the FT line overall, which was almost on par with Shaq's 63.8% in the series. Combine that with the wide open Horry shot and the Peja airball and it's clear that they lost because they choked. They missed 14 FTs (went 16 of 30!) in Game 7, which the Lakers won in OT. Lakers were the worst FT shooting team in the league (obviously because of Shaq) and the Kings managed to be even worse when it mattered most.

And I'm on board with you that Shaq gets a tad bit overrated in the ATG context because of that 00-02 run, but I don't think it was rigged as badly as the Laker haters would want to believe. They could have easily lost that series with how the officiating went in 6 of the 7 games.

[1987_Lakers]

You had to watch Shaq in person from 2000-2002 to understand just how dominant he was. He was an absolute force out there, probably the most dominant 3 year stretch I've ever seen.

[Jasper]

#5 - The Sacramento Kings Series - 4 rings, 3 Finals MVP's you can remove two of those points after what was the worst called series in NBA history...also

#6 - The Portland Trailblazers Series - Another fixed series...one player benefited from two of the shadiest series in NBA history. The NBA also sabotaged the FBI investigation over game fixing we don't know how many refs would have gone down in Tim was able to wear a wire.

WHEN THE PORTLAND SERIES OCCURRED , I COULD TELL THE SERIES WAS FIXED FOR A REASON: the NBA needed an identity and they were banking on LA.
when that chip occurred , I closed my eyes and hoped the NBA would not turn into the WWF or NFL.
media has a lot to do with how , and when money is processed.

With that being said , I always thought Shaq banging into people with his rear shoulder was a foul , which he got away with.
I still have him in the top 20 on my list ... you have to , because of his dominance.

[SouBeachTalents]

This dude asking if Shaq was better than Iverson or Kidd :roll:

Absolute moron, and he takes things so seriously I don't even think he's trolling.

[John8204]

Bad calls go on both sides all the time man. I know the Kings got the short end of the stick in Game 6 but that wasn't the case in the 6 other games in that series. Kings shot 19 more FTs in that WCF and had less fouls called on them overall, but they only shot 65.7% (They were a 75% FT shooting team in the RS, their WCF FT% would have been ~4% below the worst FT shooting team in the league that year) from the FT line overall, which was almost on par with Shaq's 63.8% in the series. Combine that with the wide open Horry shot and the Peja airball and it's clear that they lost because they choked. They missed 14 FTs (went 16 of 30!) in Game 7, which the Lakers won in OT. Lakers were the worst FT shooting team in the league (obviously because of Shaq) and the Kings managed to be even worse when it mattered most.

And I'm on board with you that Shaq gets a tad bit overrated in the ATG context because of that 00-02 run, but I don't think it was rigged as badly as the Laker haters would want to believe. They could have easily lost that series with how the officiating went in 6 of the 7 games.

People complain about calls every year but certain series and calls stand out...that's the issue. Kings/Lakers, Suns/Spurs, Pistons/Lakers, Blazers/Lakers...these are the series which are the all-time worst called/calls. You can also tie the bad calls with the weaker competition because Shaq was "dominant" yet twice during his run he had major issues with historically minor teams. Wilt is a choke artist for losing to The Celtics...but Shaq's a goat for going seven games against Vlady Divac. That doesn't track with me.

[John8204]

This dude asking if Shaq was better than Iverson or Kidd :roll:

Absolute moron, and he takes things so seriously I don't even think he's trolling.

You are the reason this thread exists because you can't get over me having Shaq outside the top twenty. If Iverson and Kidd can make the finals without needing all-time great players to help them...why aren't they better than Shaq? Aren't all three of them top ten in their respective positions at C, PG, and SG. Why are you so scared to articulate an adult conversation without needed to insult me?

I don't really care if you like Shaq or not...most of you grew up watching him play. I don't think I said anything that was beyond reason or unfair. Most of my opinions are based on metrics and facts. What bothers me is that you are a grown man who can't hold a conversation...on a message board for conversations.

[Charlie Sheen]

I don't have Shaq in my top twenty, apparently this is a big enough deal for people to bring this up over and over again. Here are my ten reasons Shaq isn't a GOAT.


#5 - The Sacramento Kings Series - 4 rings, 3 Finals MVP's you can remove two of those points after what was the worst called series in NBA history...also

#6 - The Portland Trailblazers Series - Another fixed series...one player benefited from two of the shadiest series in NBA history. The NBA also sabotaged the FBI investigation over game fixing we don't know how many refs would have gone down in Tim was able to wear a wire.

#7 - His weight, the NBA is filled with many great's none of them weighed 400lbs. The man had little self control and discipline plenty of players have weaknesses but how many of them had to do with food.

#8 - His ego, the Magic were a great team and a nice destination for players. Had he stayed on the team that drafted him he would have had great players come over the years to play with the big man. Well he left the Magic and followed Jerry West to Los Angeles who put together a championship level squad for Shaq...he could have stayed in Los Angeles and won 4-5-6 but he couldn't get along with Kobe. So he bounces over to Pat Riley and the team he built up in Miami wins a single title and I guess not believing he could beat the Celtics and Lebron he runs to the Phoenix Suns to play under D'antoni and try and beat Kobe...flops horribly. Then he ring chases with the teams that were better than him...Cleveland and Boston fails to win as a bench player. Shaq's a front runner who when his feelings got hurt he left a dynasty. I don't respect players that leave rings on the table.


You could have saved a lot of time by saying you don't like shaq. That's all this amounts to.

[SouBeachTalents]

You are the reason this thread exists because you can't get over me having Shaq outside the top twenty. If Iverson and Kidd can make the finals without needing all-time great players to help them...why aren't they better than Shaq? Aren't all three of them top ten in their respective positions at C, PG, and SG. Why are you so scared to articulate an adult conversation without needed to insult me?

I don't really care if you like Shaq or not...most of you grew up watching him play. I don't think I said anything that was beyond reason or unfair. Most of my opinions are based on metrics and facts. What bothers me is that you are a grown man who can't hold a conversation...on a message board for conversations.
Genuinely asking, are you unable to grasp the concept that Iverson & Kidd made the Finals those seasons because they were playing in literally one of the weakest conferences ever? Does that thought just not pop into your head when you make that argument? Do you also genuinely believe peak Shaq isn't leading those same Sixers & Nets teams to the Finals in that same conference? And on the flipside, do you actually believe Iverson & Kidd are making the Finals out West, beating the Lakers/Kings/Spurs?

And there's no need to articulate a conversation against a guy claiming Iverson & Kidd were better at basketball than Shaq, just like I wouldn't argue against someone claiming Tony Romo or Philip Rivers were better QB's than Mahomes. There's a reason not a single person in the thread has agreed with you, with the consensus being it's an indefensible and asinine opinion.

[j3lademaster]

Shaq played Hakeem evenly in the finals as a 24 year old. Lol at this notion he couldn’t dominate in a legit era of centers.

[John8204]

Genuinely asking, are you unable to grasp the concept that Iverson & Kidd made the Finals those seasons because they were playing in literally one of the weakest conferences ever? Does that thought just not pop into your head when you make that argument? Do you also genuinely believe peak Shaq isn't leading those same Sixers & Nets teams to the Finals in that same conference? And on the flipside, do you actually believe Iverson & Kidd are making the Finals out West, beating the Lakers/Kings/Spurs?

And there's no need to articulate a conversation against a guy claiming Iverson & Kidd were better at basketball than Shaq, just like I wouldn't argue against someone claiming Tony Romo or Philip Rivers were better QB's than Mahomes. There's a reason not a single person in the thread has agreed with you, with the consensus being it's an indefensible and asinine opinion.


#2 - His competition, Shaq's greatest accomplishment is his rings as he has four of them. He beat The Indiana Pacers, Philadelphia 76ers, New Jersey Nets, and Dallas Mavericks. Only Dallas with Dirk ever won a ring (thanks to a 37 year old Jason Kidd joining the team). His teams that won featured Kobe and Dwayne Wade along with a who's who list of supporting elite role players. Head to Head he lost to Hakeem Olajuwon's Rockets and Ben Wallaces Pistons.

I think the era was very weak, the difference is you draw a line between the East and West while I'd argue the league was weak in total. And Shaq this allegedly dominant player didn't really dominant he had a window and he under-performed. I wouldn't rank Kidd, Shaq or AI in a top twenty all-time and I didn't.

I don't really think Iverson or Kidd were better than Shaq, but all three of them are top ten in their position. Is that some sort of unfair statement to you. You've been obsessed with this for a year bringing this up all the time. I've giving you the opportunity to address my points to make a counter-argument.

I'm secure in my beliefs and my position and I welcome people to argue with me. I don't mind if people rank Shaq as an all-time great. I don't. But what I don't respect is a man who spends months trolling me about my Shaq ranking and when given the opportunity to take a position and have a discussion he cracks jokes, throws out insults, and makes accusations. I don't begrudge people for having opinions...I begrudge them for not backing it up.

[FilmyCogTurner]

Shaq getting swept in the playoffs multiple times is a strike against him also. Four times wassit?

[ImKobe]

People complain about calls every year but certain series and calls stand out...that's the issue. Kings/Lakers, Suns/Spurs, Pistons/Lakers, Blazers/Lakers...these are the series which are the all-time worst called/calls. You can also tie the bad calls with the weaker competition because Shaq was "dominant" yet twice during his run he had major issues with historically minor teams. Wilt is a choke artist for losing to The Celtics...but Shaq's a goat for going seven games against Vlady Divac. That doesn't track with me.

Blazers and Kings were legitimate Playoff teams with title hopes. Shaq was a great player but he had his limits, which is why I've always said that KB was the better and more impactful player as he ran the offense, put up superstar numbers and had some of the best crunch time numbers in the league during those runs.

You don't need to blame the refs to make a case against Shaq. He needed Penny, Kobe and then Wade to make deep Playoff runs. Those guys made him look a little greater than he really was as they were the ones running the show. He lacked the motivation to work hard to be the greatest big man in NBA history when he had the talent to do so.

[Kblaze8855]

You could have saved a lot of time by saying you don't like shaq. That's all this amounts to.


It’s a Kobe thing. This is Kenny who has been finding a way to prop up Kobe for well over a decade. It has nothing to do with Shaq. It’s 3ball talking about Pippen for Jordan’s sake. Nothing to actually read and consider.

[dankok8]

The lowest I could possibly rank Shaq is like 12th or something like that and it would be hard to justify IMO.

I'm actually lower on Shaq than I used to be namely because watching a lot more footage of past legends I'm convinced that both Kareem and especially Wilt were way better defensively. Thus my evaluation of peak Shaq is now a step below Kareem's peak and in the same tier as Wilt's peak.

The arguments in the OP that Shaq was the last truly great traditional C and feasted on weaker big men circa 2000, that he was lazy with conditioning and that he wasn't as good of a defender and rebounder as he should have been... Those are valid points but Shaq was still at least "pretty good" in those areas of the game but offensively was just a tornado of destruction. His offensive impact for a big man is matched only by Kareem IMHO. And nowadays Jokic could get in there. But it's a very short list.

[SouBeachTalents]

The lowest I could possibly rank Shaq is like 12th or something like that and it would be hard to justify IMO.

I'm actually lower on Shaq than I used to be namely because watching a lot more footage of past legends I'm convinced that both Kareem and especially Wilt were way better defensively. Thus my evaluation of peak Shaq is now a step below Kareem's peak and in the same tier as Wilt's peak.

The arguments in the OP that Shaq was the last truly great traditional C and feasted on weaker big men circa 2000, that he was lazy with conditioning and that he wasn't as good of a defender and rebounder as he should have been... Those are valid points but Shaq was still at least "pretty good" in those areas of the game but offensively was just a tornado of destruction. His offensive impact for a big man is matched only by Kareem IMHO. And nowadays Jokic could get in there. But it's a very short list.
You're underrating his rebounding imo. During his prime, lets say the entirety of his Orlando & Lakers days, he averaged 12 rpg during the regular season and 13 during the playoffs, finished top 3 in rebounds 5 times, and had two title runs averaging 15 boards a game. Idk, it just feels kinda nitpicky to say he was merely "pretty good" at rebounding when he rebounded as well as anybody else during his era outside of Rodman.

[SaltyMeatballs]

If Iverson and Kidd can make the finals without needing all-time great players to help them...why aren't they better than Shaq?
What kind of bullshit logic is this? :oldlol: The East was very weak in the early 2000s. You had top teams finishing with barely 50 wins. Put Iverson and Kidd in the West during that time and I guarantee you they wouldn't even sniff the WCF

[Axe]

What kind of bullshit logic is this? :oldlol: The East was very weak in the early 2000s. You had top teams finishing with barely 50 wins. Put Iverson and Kidd in the West during that time and I guarantee you they wouldn't even sniff the WCF
The same weak ass east that jordan failed to make the playoffs in with the collins-coached wizards. :lol

[Jasper]

You're underrating his rebounding imo. During his prime, lets say the entirety of his Orlando & Lakers days, he averaged 12 rpg during the regular season and 13 during the playoffs, finished top 3 in rebounds 5 times, and had two title runs averaging 15 boards a game. Idk, it just feels kinda nitpicky to say he was merely "pretty good" at rebounding when he rebounded as well as anybody else during his era outside of Rodman.

bringing up rebounding : you would then have to think Lakers AD must be some kind of all-world god bballer.
he is averaging last few games over 16 boards... on about 30% shooting. As well as losing every game.

[Reggie43]

Its weird how Shaq would get underrated like this. He is probably the easiest guy to gauge because of how dominant he was and how teams defended him in his peak/prime.

[hateraid]

Shaq is a top 10 based on eye test and impact alone. He was the most dominant player of his time...of all time.

[Soundwave]

I know I'm gonna killed for saying it but whatever ... Shaq is better than Magic and Bird.

Magic and Bird got rated much higher because "they saved the league" ... and because of Magic's personality off the court and their linked rivalry, but IMO Shaq always was a more dominant player.

[SouBeachTalents]

I know I'm gonna killed for saying it but whatever ... Shaq is better than Magic and Bird.

Magic and Bird got rated much higher because "they saved the league" ... and because of Magic's personality off the court and their linked rivalry, but IMO Shaq always was a more dominant player.
I have Shaq ranked ahead of both of them, and peak wise? Better than both, esp Magic.

[RRR3]

It’s a Kobe thing. This is Kenny who has been finding a way to prop up Kobe for well over a decade. It has nothing to do with Shaq. It’s 3ball talking about Pippen for Jordan’s sake. Nothing to actually read and consider.
Wait OP is Kenny?

[Overdrive]

Wait OP is Kenny?

Nah, blaze means the pattern of behaviour.

[dankok8]

You're underrating his rebounding imo. During his prime, lets say the entirety of his Orlando & Lakers days, he averaged 12 rpg during the regular season and 13 during the playoffs, finished top 3 in rebounds 5 times, and had two title runs averaging 15 boards a game. Idk, it just feels kinda nitpicky to say he was merely "pretty good" at rebounding when he rebounded as well as anybody else during his era outside of Rodman.

I mean "pretty good" in a historical sense that he isn't a standout as a rebounder. The likes of Russell, Wilt, Moses and Rodman are clearly better than him and many others like Kareem, Unseld, Barkley, Dwight, Mutombo, young Hakeem are in the same tier. With Shaq's physical gifts he should have perhaps been more consistent and rebounding at 2000 and 2001 levels and in those peak years he did at least approach GOAT-level rebounding rates.