With key teammates injured in the playoffs how well did MJ do compared to Lebron.

[coastalmarker99]

Lebron had starters out/injured in the Finals in 2007 (Hughes), 2014 (Wade) and 2015 (Kyrie, Love).

When someone uses “4-6,” they count these against him.

So…how did MJ do with injured teammates? Great, right?


MJ fans don’t understand the importance of injuries, because the Bulls hardly had any in their title years.

MJ’s starters played in 99% of their playoff games between 90-98.
As They missed 5 total games in 8 years.

They should’ve missed 10-20X with that rate.

Lucky.


or this string, an “injured key player” game is defined as:

A starter or a player at 1,600 MP
Who misses a game
—OR—
Plays 15 or less minutes (got injured or tried to play)

Because of injury.

Not just losing minutes (Paxson, Sellers, Gervin) or foul trouble (Longley)


We’ll do this by playoff round.

But one other note…the following players never missed a game or played significantly shortened minutes due to injury with Jordan:

Horace Grant
Dennis Rodman
BJ Armstrong
Steve Kerr
Oakley

Did minutes fluctuate? Sure. But no big injuries.


In the 1st round and CSF:

Longley missed the 1st round vs the 43 win Nets in 98 (knee) and the Bulls went 3-0.

Paxson might’ve had a bruised knee in 88 when over 5 gms he played 11, 11, 6, 1 and 5 minutes. 2 vs CLE (1-1), 3 vs DET (1-2). Averaged 23 MPG that year. Also in a slump.


In 1985, Steve Johnson never played > 10 min vs the Bucks. Starter most of the year. 1-3.

In 1986, the Bulls starting center was Jawann Oldham, out with a fractured cheekbone. 4 min total in the series. 0-3.

In 98, Kukoc had a bad back in the CSF. 10 min game. Win.

7-9 total.


I’s hard to argue those series outcomes were significantly impacted.

So let’s look at Conf Finals games.

In 1989 Pippen was knocked out after a minute by a stray elbow from Laimbeer in game 6.
The Bulls lost.

Without his #2, MJ wilted in the 4th. 8 minutes without a point.


In 1990 vs the Pistons, Paxson was hurt in games 1 and 7.

He played only 16 min in game 1 bc of an ankle injury. Shot 0-5.

Then he missed all of game 7 due to a worse ankle injury, incurred in the 3rd in game 6.

Both were losses.

MJ now 0-3 versus better competition…

In 1992, Cartwright injured his back in the last game of the Knicks CSF series. He played 6 minutes in game 2 of the CF vs CLE. 26 pt loss.

In 97, Kukoc’s foot injury led him to play 7 min in game 4 vs the Heat. A loss.

In 98, Pippen played 7 min in game 5 vs the Heat. A win.


So MJ was 1-5 in CF games with key teammate injuries.

That’s good, right?

In the Finals, there’s only one instance. Harper missed most of 3 games in 96, playing 1, 13 and 1 minute in games 3-5 vs the Sonics (tendinitis).

The Bulls went 1-2.

Harper being out had some impact.


People will scream about Pippen, game 6, 1998.

Pippen played 26 minutes
He was +16, vs Jordan at +2
Pippen led the team in DRtg. The Jazz scored at a rate of 64 PPG with Pippen playing, 117 when he was out
Pippen was FMVP through the 1st 4 games

Not the carry job people think.


So let’s summarize.

MJ was 9-16 in playoff games either missing key teammates, or with injured teammates missing big minutes.

He was 1-5 in Conference Finals games and 1-2 in Finals games. 2-7.

Excluding these games, he was 28-11 in CF and 23-9 in Finals.

That’s a HUGE swing.


Let’s look at Lebron’s Finals with his best players:

2007: Hughes misses 2. 0-2
2015: Love/Kyrie. 2-4
2016: Love 1 game. 1-0
2020: (we’ll ignore Bradley)

3-6.
Versus 2-7.

One’s a huge loser.
One is a huge winner.

Lebron also won a CF vs Boston, game 7, 2018, without Love.


With injured teammates in CF and Finals games, MJ’s winning PCT went from 72% to 22%.

But “4-6” Lebron is supposed to overcome that hurdle, even though Jordan couldn’t.

Again, Lebron is held to higher standards.

MJ got lucky with limited injuries. Lebron didn’t. It matters.

[HoopsNY]

Lebron had starters out/injured in the Finals in 2007 (Hughes), 2014 (Wade) and 2015 (Kyrie, Love).

When someone uses “4-6,” they count these against him.

So…how did MJ do with injured teammates? Great, right?


MJ fans don’t understand the importance of injuries, because the Bulls hardly had any in their title years.

MJ’s starters played in 99% of their playoff games between 90-98.
As They missed 5 total games in 8 years.

They should’ve missed 10-20X with that rate.

Lucky.


or this string, an “injured key player” game is defined as:

A starter or a player at 1,600 MP
Who misses a game
—OR—
Plays 15 or less minutes (got injured or tried to play)

Because of injury.

Not just losing minutes (Paxson, Sellers, Gervin) or foul trouble (Longley)


We’ll do this by playoff round.

But one other note…the following players never missed a game or played significantly shortened minutes due to injury with Jordan:

Horace Grant
Dennis Rodman
BJ Armstrong
Steve Kerr
Oakley

Did minutes fluctuate? Sure. But no big injuries.


In the 1st round and CSF:

Longley missed the 1st round vs the 43 win Nets in 98 (knee) and the Bulls went 3-0.

Paxson might’ve had a bruised knee in 88 when over 5 gms he played 11, 11, 6, 1 and 5 minutes. 2 vs CLE (1-1), 3 vs DET (1-2). Averaged 23 MPG that year. Also in a slump.


In 1985, Steve Johnson never played > 10 min vs the Bucks. Starter most of the year. 1-3.

In 1986, the Bulls starting center was Jawann Oldham, out with a fractured cheekbone. 4 min total in the series. 0-3.

In 98, Kukoc had a bad back in the CSF. 10 min game. Win.

7-9 total.


I’s hard to argue those series outcomes were significantly impacted.

So let’s look at Conf Finals games.

In 1989 Pippen was knocked out after a minute by a stray elbow from Laimbeer in game 6.
The Bulls lost.

Without his #2, MJ wilted in the 4th. 8 minutes without a point.


In 1990 vs the Pistons, Paxson was hurt in games 1 and 7.

He played only 16 min in game 1 bc of an ankle injury. Shot 0-5.

Then he missed all of game 7 due to a worse ankle injury, incurred in the 3rd in game 6.

Both were losses.

MJ now 0-3 versus better competition…

In 1992, Cartwright injured his back in the last game of the Knicks CSF series. He played 6 minutes in game 2 of the CF vs CLE. 26 pt loss.

In 97, Kukoc’s foot injury led him to play 7 min in game 4 vs the Heat. A loss.

In 98, Pippen played 7 min in game 5 vs the Heat. A win.


So MJ was 1-5 in CF games with key teammate injuries.

That’s good, right?

In the Finals, there’s only one instance. Harper missed most of 3 games in 96, playing 1, 13 and 1 minute in games 3-5 vs the Sonics (tendinitis).

The Bulls went 1-2.

Harper being out had some impact.


People will scream about Pippen, game 6, 1998.

Pippen played 26 minutes
He was +16, vs Jordan at +2
Pippen led the team in DRtg. The Jazz scored at a rate of 64 PPG with Pippen playing, 117 when he was out
Pippen was FMVP through the 1st 4 games

Not the carry job people think.


So let’s summarize.

MJ was 9-16 in playoff games either missing key teammates, or with injured teammates missing big minutes.

He was 1-5 in Conference Finals games and 1-2 in Finals games. 2-7.

Excluding these games, he was 28-11 in CF and 23-9 in Finals.

That’s a HUGE swing.


Let’s look at Lebron’s Finals with his best players:

2007: Hughes misses 2. 0-2
2015: Love/Kyrie. 2-4
2016: Love 1 game. 1-0
2020: (we’ll ignore Bradley)

3-6.
Versus 2-7.

One’s a huge loser.
One is a huge winner.

Lebron also won a CF vs Boston, game 7, 2018, without Love.


With injured teammates in CF and Finals games, MJ’s winning PCT went from 72% to 22%.

But “4-6” Lebron is supposed to overcome that hurdle, even though Jordan couldn’t.

Again, Lebron is held to higher standards.

MJ got lucky with limited injuries. Lebron didn’t. It matters.

You're leaving out some info. You can't mention the injuries that Wade played with and ignore Pippen playing injured in '93, '96, and '98. '96 and '98 are more significant because his back significantly impacted his play.

In fact, that entire 1996 playoffs was kinda weird. Chicago was dealing with a lot of injuries that season as Pippen declined in the second half. In the finals, Harper switched off of GP and MJ covered him during games 3 and 4 because of Harper's injuries which he had been dealing with since the Orlando series.

In addition, Kukoc missed 3 games in the series against the Knicks. MJ was banged up that playoffs too if you recall, injuring his back in the Heat series. and he also had a wrist injury in '93 vs. the Cavs and Knicks.

You're also mentioning 2016 with Love missing 1 game but ignoring Draymond's suspension. Then you mention 2018 without Love in game 7 but forgot to mention that Hayward and Kyrie missed the entire series.

[Axe]

Jordan is the most blessed cash cow in the league.

[Baller789]

You're leaving out some info. You can't mention the injuries that Wade played with and ignore Pippen playing injured in '93, '96, and '98. '96 and '98 are more significant because his back significantly impacted his play.

In fact, that entire 1996 playoffs was kinda weird. Chicago was dealing with a lot of injuries that season as Pippen declined in the second half. In the finals, Harper switched off of GP and MJ covered him during games 3 and 4 because of Harper's injuries which he had been dealing with since the Orlando series.

In addition, Kukoc missed 3 games in the series against the Knicks. MJ was banged up that playoffs too if you recall, injuring his back in the Heat series. and he also had a wrist injury in '93 vs. the Cavs and Knicks.

You're also mentioning 2016 with Love missing 1 game but ignoring Draymond's suspension. Then you mention 2018 without Love in game 7 but forgot to mention that Hayward and Kyrie missed the entire series.

Too bad the Jabronies wont mention this.

[sdot_thadon]

I think he did a well enough job making the point we've kept ignoring for nearly 20 years now. Lebron has been graded on a curve that only he and maybe Kobe had dealt with as far as legends go. I've always advocated for these goat debates to have them judged the same across the board, but ugh nostalgia.

[ImKobe]

Idk what this thread is supposed to prove here.

Teams had way less depth in the 80s/90s so injuries would be more devastating, but less players got injured in general. How many of MJ's opponents in the POs dealt with significant injuries? Can we have a comparison of their opponents' health? Saying MJ didn't carry them in Game 6 when he played almost the entire game and made the winning plays at the end while playing 18 more minutes than Pippen is just laughable. He scored over half of his team's pts and had the game-winning steal/shot, that's a carry-job.

Bulls were underdogs vs. Pistons (who destroyed every other opponent in the POs in '89/'90, Bulls won 5 games the rest of their opponents combined won 2 in the two PO runs) so losing Pippen or even Paxson was going to be devastating for them.

[HoopsNY]

I think he did a well enough job making the point we've kept ignoring for nearly 20 years now. Lebron has been graded on a curve that only he and maybe Kobe had dealt with as far as legends go. I've always advocated for these goat debates to have them judged the same across the board, but ugh nostalgia.

Only it's not true. Just off the top of my head, LeBron's opponents lost guys like Deng/Heinrich, Butler/Arenas, Hayward/Kyrie, or even the Celtics losing Isaiah Thomas in 2017. There's also Bam/Dragic in 2020. The list is probably extensive on both sides, so there just isn't any point to this exercise.

Are we gonna also ignore Pippen in the migraine game in 1990 and the injury in game 6 in 1989 against Detroit? Or do these examples simply not count?

[Full Court]

Jordan never got sonned by Jason Terry, so there's that. :lol

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron lost with Shaq, Ben Wallace, Wade with HCA. Lebron lost to every elite big in his era in Dirk, KG, Duncan, Dwight Howard (WTF) even with HCA. Lebron switched teams 5 times and still doesn't have as many titles as Steph Curry in his own era.

[RRR3]

I think he did a well enough job making the point we've kept ignoring for nearly 20 years now. Lebron has been graded on a curve that only he and maybe Kobe had dealt with as far as legends go. I've always advocated for these goat debates to have them judged the same across the board, but ugh nostalgia.
Both LeBron and Kobe had to deal with a curve because MJ stans are so insecure

[3ba11]

I think he did a well enough job making the point we've kept ignoring for nearly 20 years now. Lebron has been graded on a curve that only he and maybe Kobe had dealt with as far as legends go. I've always advocated for these goat debates to have them judged the same across the board, but ugh nostalgia.


If Jokic loses again this year, no one will say that the Nuggets are wasting his talent and that he deserves more help - he'll have to keep toiling away with that cast until he figures out how to win with it.. He'll simply be considered "not good enough" until he learns the championship chemistry required to win with the guys that he has.

Otoh, Lebron is allowed to blame losses on lack of supporting talent - he isn't expected to develop chemistry or young players into significant contributors like everyone else has to.

Only Lebron was able to win his conference multiple times by taking the top 3 first options in the conference and putting them on 1 team (the "decision").. Furthermore, Kyrie played 12 of 14 games in the 2015 East Playoffs, while Love was the only perennial all-star sidekick and best 2nd option in the 18' East, so the only time that Lebron carried a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it in the 2000's (Iverson, Kidd, Lebron, Dwight)

[Axe]

1-9

[Nb1]

Lebron almost beat the Warriors with Dellavedova, Shumpert, Mozgov and Thompson lol. Let that sink in. I don't think there's anything greater than that other than the 2016 finals.

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron almost beat the Warriors with Dellavedova, Shumpert, Mozgov and Thompson lol. Let that sink in. I don't think there's anything greater than that other than the 2016 finals.

He lost with HCA to Dwight Howard. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?459570-How-is-it-even-possible-to-lose-to-Dwight-Howard-in-a-series-with-HCA/page11

He won bronze medal with peak Duncan and Iverson.

[sdot_thadon]

Only it's not true. Just off the top of my head, LeBron's opponents lost guys like Deng/Heinrich, Butler/Arenas, Hayward/Kyrie, or even the Celtics losing Isaiah Thomas in 2017. There's also Bam/Dragic in 2020. The list is probably extensive on both sides, so there just isn't any point to this exercise.

Are we gonna also ignore Pippen in the migraine game in 1990 and the injury in game 6 in 1989 against Detroit? Or do these examples simply not count?

As far as I know the thread mentions teammates and not opponents injured. With that said Lebron has had his 3rd option miss entire series (Love), 2nd and 3rd options miss big chunks of series (Bosh, love, and Kyrie), had 2nd options etc play several rounds hobbled in playoff runs (WADE, Kyrie, Love, Hughes) Wade in caps because he spent basically the last 3 runs hobbled in the postseason and they still won 2 of them. And straight up missing key guys altogether in the championship round. Mj simply didn't ever face that level of adversity roster wise in his runs. Luck has always been a huge part of the championship equation. It only stopped being with Lebron lol.

** and no we shouldn't ignore Pippen getting hurt in spots, as a matter of fact when has it been? It's widely been used to excuse MJ's failures, just only works for him I guess.

[sdot_thadon]

If Jokic loses again this year, no one will say that the Nuggets are wasting his talent and that he deserves more help - he'll have to keep toiling away with that cast until he figures out how to win with it.. He'll simply be considered "not good enough" until he learns the championship chemistry required to win with the guys that he has.

Otoh, Lebron is allowed to blame losses on lack of supporting talent - he isn't expected to develop chemistry or young players into significant contributors like everyone else has to.

Only Lebron was able to win his conference multiple times by taking the top 3 first options in the conference and putting them on 1 team (the "decision").. Furthermore, Kyrie played 12 of 14 games in the 2015 East Playoffs, while Love was the only perennial all-star sidekick and best 2nd option in the 18' East, so the only time that Lebron carried a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it in the 2000's (Iverson, Kidd, Lebron, Dwight)

Bro nobody gaf if Jokic wins anything lol, he's not even close to Lebrons level of expectation. If he never leaves the 1st rd again in his career it wouldn't be a blip on the radar. You're still unable to see the big picture, those narratives surround Lebron, because he's that good, not because the narrative was made before the talent. We knew he was an alltimer early on and that instantly draws comparison to a different set of peers, who 99% of had great casts and teammates. So yeah he seemed deserving of what other greats were given to work with I'd imagine.

[3ba11]

Bro nobody gaf if Jokic wins anything lol, he's not even close to Lebrons level of expectation





Jokic has more pressure than Lebron ever had specifically because

1) anyone that wins 3 straight MVP's has a floor expectation of Bird

2) Jokic doesn't have the option of team-hopping - he cannot take the top 3 first options in the conference and put them on 1 team to produce a Finals streak (no "decision" for Jokic)


And Lebron failed expectation by failing to win with his original Cavs teams - he never persevered through that like Jokic is expected to do, or like Curry, Isiah, Giannis or MJ did.. Lebron didn't persevere - he formed super-teams that mostly lost - so he always underachieved - 20 years confirms that he isn't capable of MOSTLY WINNING with any lineup, aka hardly GOAT-caliber6.

[sdot_thadon]

Jokic has more pressure than Lebron ever had specifically because

1) anyone that wins 3 straight MVP's has a floor expectation of Bird

2) Jokic doesn't have the option of team-hopping - he cannot take the top 3 first options in the conference and put them on 1 team to produce a Finals streak (no "decision" for Jokic)


And Lebron failed expectation by failing to win with his original Cavs teams - he never persevered through that like Jokic is expected to do, or like Curry, Isiah, Giannis or MJ did.. Lebron didn't persevere - he formed super-teams that mostly lost - so he always underachieved - 20 years confirms that he isn't capable of MOSTLY WINNING with any lineup, aka hardly GOAT-caliber6.

Wrong again, Joker is a great player without atg expectations. He doesn't have the expectations of a player such as Bird either. Nobody expects Jokic to do anything lol. If we're at all being honest the other Mvp candidates like Embiid face more expectation than Joker. I dunno why, but apparently its the way things are.

[ImKobe]

Lebron almost beat the Warriors with Dellavedova, Shumpert, Mozgov and Thompson lol. Let that sink in. I don't think there's anything greater than that other than the 2016 finals.

He "almost" won nothing. Put up a massive stinker when up 2 - 1 and at home. Mozgov had 28/10 (led both teams in scoring) on 65%TS in that game as well but Bran put up 20 on 7/22 FG lol. Should have won Game 1 with how great Kyrie was in that game but Bran was horrible in 2nd halves in that series. A role player outplayed Bran and won the FMVP.

Everyone gives him credit for shooting under 40% while stat-padding in that Finals. If it was anyone else they would have ridiculed the player for chucking his team out of the series. They won Game 2 in spite of him. Bran shot 4/22 in the 2nd half + OT and they still won.

[sdot_thadon]

He "almost" won nothing. Put up a massive stinker when up 2 - 1 and at home. Mozgov had 28/10 (led both teams in scoring) on 65%TS in that game as well but Bran put up 20 on 7/22 FG lol. Should have won Game 1 with how great Kyrie was in that game but Bran was horrible in 2nd halves in that series. A role player outplayed Bran and won the FMVP.

Everyone gives him credit for shooting under 40% while stat-padding in that Finals. If it was anyone else they would have ridiculed the player for chucking his team out of the series. They won Game 2 in spite of him. Bran shot 4/22 in the 2nd half + OT and they still won.

The irony of this post being below the name imkobe is immense.