What was Kawhi's ceiling without all the injuries?

[dankok8]

Say he never missed significant time due to injuries... Where would he rank on the all-time list?

I think as is he probably still makes my top 30 but without injuries probably top 20 ish.

[Jasper]

I think he would of been close to Jabari Parker.

[SouBeachTalents]

On the flipside, if the Warriors aren’t injured in 2019 his all time standing is a lot different. It’s very possible if healthy the Clippers win the title in 2021, but they had their shot in 2020 and he and PG completely shit the bed.

[ShawkFactory]

Idk where his career goes so ranking him top 20 or 20 or whatever is fruitless, but Kawhi at his best is legitimately one of the best players I've ever seen. He's on a very short list.

I'd take Kawhi at his peak over Durant.

[kawhileonard2]

Say he never missed significant time due to injuries... Where would he rank on the all-time list?

I think as is he probably still makes my top 30 but without injuries probably top 20 ish.
Battling MJ for GOAT.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Pippen without the playmaking?

So I guess top 15 or so

[warriorfan]

he was the best two way player in the league when healthy for a bit there. if he could keep it up for a long career he could be in the top 10

[1987_Lakers]

Kawhi's defense took a dip once he became a great scorer, he peaked as a defender in 2015 & 2016.

Someone like Giannis is a better two way player.

[HoopsNY]

Kawhi's defense took a dip once he became a great scorer, he peaked as a defender in 2015 & 2016.

Someone like Giannis is a better two way player.

His defense was elite in the playoffs in 2019, but I do agree his best defensive days was before then.

[Axe]

Too bad hbk dimwit is not here anymore to tell us what he thinks about his hero these days.

[ImKobe]

Could have been the next version of Kobe/MJ aka the best player of his era.

[1987_Lakers]

Could have been the next version of Kobe/MJ aka the best player of his era.

Duncan > Kobe

[ImKobe]

Duncan > Kobe

This ain't been a debate after the '08 WCF. KB was better.

[1987_Lakers]

This ain't been a debate after the '08 WCF. KB was better.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499632-Top-50-List-Revisited
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777

You lose again

[ImKobe]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499632-Top-50-List-Revisited
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777

You lose again

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/340253-kobe-bryant-player-of-the-decade-in-the-nba

Kobe also got 54% of the votes for player of the decade in the TNT poll (vs Duncan's 21%) in 2010.

KB was the best player of his era. Duncan getting carried to his 5th didn't change that.

[1987_Lakers]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/340253-kobe-bryant-player-of-the-decade-in-the-nba

Kobe also got 54% of the votes for player of the decade in the TNT poll (vs Duncan's 21%) in 2010.

KB was the best player of his era. Duncan getting carried to his 5th didn't change that.

It's no secret Kobe is extremely popular among casual fans and players. He was a wing player who was marketable & played for the Lakers. Duncan played on a boring team in his prime and kept his mouth shut, this effects the perception of casuals.

Real fans have always ranked Duncan ahead of Kobe.

[Carbine]

Kawhi was the perimeter version of Tim Duncan at his peak.

[ImKobe]

It's no secret Kobe is extremely popular among casual fans and players. He was a wing player who was marketable & played for the Lakers. Duncan played on a boring team in his prime and kept his mouth shut, this effects the perception of casuals.

Real fans have always ranked Duncan ahead of Kobe.

I'll take a vote concerning 10s of thousands over a 50-100 person poll on a message board tbh. You guys make 10s of alts to influence meaningless polls just to further your own agenda.

The vast majority of people would put KB over Duncan because KB beat Duncan H2H almost every time in the POs. Duncan was an ATG defender but never led the league in rebounding/blocks nor won a DPOY. Duncan only had one 25+ ppg season and wasn't a great scorer. Duncan put up 20.6 ppg on 47.1%TS against Detroit and won FMVP when Manu carried him. People talk about Duncan's impact on the Spurs' defense in the 2010s but they stayed elite on D when he was washed in '16 & retired. Duncan had the best FO/coach situation of any NBA player, essentially the equivalent of Brady in NE, but he was never THAT guy.

I'll stop derailing the thread.

Kawhi's 2017 injury is the biggest what-if in recent memory. Spurs were up 20+ on GS in '17 before he injured his leg which led to him leaving San Antonio. I believe he would have stayed a Spur and won multiple rings there had he stayed healthy.

[1987_Lakers]

I'll take a vote concerning 10s of thousands over a 50-100 person poll on a message board tbh. You guys make 10s of alts to influence meaningless polls just to further your own agenda.

The same fans who voted in that TNT poll are the same fans who voted past prime Iverson as a starter in the All-star game that very same year. (2010) This shows what popularity can do for a player.

Realgm is looked as the place to go if you want knowledgeable basketball talk, hell even insidehoops was knowledgeable 10+ years ago and both sites have always had Duncan over Kobe.

Truth hurts.

[SATAN]

NBA media channels compared him to Michael Jordan despite knowing Kawit isn't as good as LeBron James. Very interesting...

[Hey Yo]

This ain't been a debate after the '08 WCF. KB was better.

That was the only time first option Kobe faced Duncan in the postseason.

[Hey Yo]

I'll take a vote concerning 10s of thousands over a 50-100 person poll on a message board tbh. You guys make 10s of alts to influence meaningless polls just to further your own agenda.

The vast majority of people would put KB over Duncan because KB beat Duncan H2H almost every time in the POs. Duncan was an ATG defender but never led the league in rebounding/blocks nor won a DPOY. Duncan only had one 25+ ppg season and wasn't a great scorer. Duncan put up 20.6 ppg on 47.1%TS against Detroit and won FMVP when Manu carried him. People talk about Duncan's impact on the Spurs' defense in the 2010s but they stayed elite on D when he was washed in '16 & retired. Duncan had the best FO/coach situation of any NBA player, essentially the equivalent of Brady in NE, but he was never THAT guy.

I'll stop derailing the thread.

Kawhi's 2017 injury is the biggest what-if in recent memory. Spurs were up 20+ on GS in '17 before he injured his leg which led to him leaving San Antonio. I believe he would have stayed a Spur and won multiple rings there had he stayed healthy.

People always bring up that the Spurs were up big when Kawhit got hurt, but never follow up saying it was game one.


It's like saying Philly became the favorites after winning game 1 of the 2001 finals

[HoopologyPhD]

I'm pretty sure he hit his ceiling, it may have lasted longer but I don't see him improving that much.

Most of the negatives in his game were due to his lack of explosiveness, which probably would have been ridiculously apparent compared to other NBAers if not for his length and instincts.

[ShawkFactory]

I'll take a vote concerning 10s of thousands over a 50-100 person poll on a message board tbh. You guys make 10s of alts to influence meaningless polls just to further your own agenda.

The vast majority of people would put KB over Duncan because KB beat Duncan H2H almost every time in the POs. Duncan was an ATG defender but never led the league in rebounding/blocks nor won a DPOY. Duncan only had one 25+ ppg season and wasn't a great scorer. Duncan put up 20.6 ppg on 47.1%TS against Detroit and won FMVP when Manu carried him. People talk about Duncan's impact on the Spurs' defense in the 2010s but they stayed elite on D when he was washed in '16 & retired. Duncan had the best FO/coach situation of any NBA player, essentially the equivalent of Brady in NE, but he was never THAT guy.

I'll stop derailing the thread.

Kawhi's 2017 injury is the biggest what-if in recent memory. Spurs were up 20+ on GS in '17 before he injured his leg which led to him leaving San Antonio. I believe he would have stayed a Spur and won multiple rings there had he stayed healthy.

Stopped reading right here. Do people really still believe this?

[dankok8]

I'm pretty sure he hit his ceiling, it may have lasted longer but I don't see him improving that much.

Most of the negatives in his game were due to his lack of explosiveness, which probably would have been ridiculously apparent compared to other NBAers if not for his length and instincts.

i didn't mean ceiling in terms of level of play but in terms of all-time ranking.

[ImKobe]

Stopped reading right here. Do people really still believe this?

Was he a GREAT scorer? His efficiency was on par with Kobe's despite being a big man and he did it at a much lower volume for the majority of his career.

This thread is about Kawhi btw. Stop derailing it. Thanks.

[ShawkFactory]

Was he a GREAT scorer? His efficiency was on par with Kobe's despite being a big man and he did it at a much lower volume for the majority of his career.

This thread is about Kawhi btw. Stop derailing it. Thanks.

I've already given my 2 cents on Kawhi so I can so whatever the fvck I want :lol

Yes he was a great scorer. Just because he often played the team game and didn't look to take over offensively doesn't mean he couldn't. PLEASE go watch some early 2000s Spurs games. It was him or nothing, and he got doubled every time he touched the ball.

Anyway...you know what you did. Stop including Kobe into a category that MJ is in. They're not the same.

[bison]

Not sure his ring count changes, but a fully healthy Kawhi would definitely have an MVP under his belt. Hard to say which year since he's missed so much time to injury, but if he is playing a full season at his offensive/defensive peak, I think he gets an MVP

[1987_Lakers]

Was he a GREAT scorer? His efficiency was on par with Kobe's despite being a big man and he did it at a much lower volume for the majority of his career.

This thread is about Kawhi btw. Stop derailing it. Thanks.

Coming from a guy who used a TNT poll to prove his point while also ignoring Iverson got over 1 million votes that same year to be a starter in the All star game.

[SouBeachTalents]

Not sure his ring count changes, but a fully healthy Kawhi would definitely have an MVP under his belt. Hard to say which year since he's missed so much time to injury, but if he is playing a full season at his offensive/defensive peak, I think he gets an MVP
I don't think he does. He didn't win in 2017 when he actually managed to play 74 games and led the Spurs to 61 wins. I seriously doubt he beats Giannis either season leading the Bucks to the best record in the league while playing phenomenal two way basketball. He would've had a better shot snagging one off of Jokic, but his production was so insane it would've taken some beastly season we frankly have never seen from Kawhi.

His best shot would've been 2018, where even then, he'd have to surpass Harden averaging 30/9 on a 65 win team, something I wouldn't pick him to do either. Even if healthy, I think he's adding maybe one more title in 2021, but still not winning MVP. And as I brought up previously, if we're bringing up injuries, we can't ignore the injuries the Warriors faced in 2019.

[Dbrog]

It's hard to say for Kawhi. He was basically a rich man's Ron Artest...which is nasty. He did carry that Raptors team past a championship warriors squad who was looking to 3-peat and ALSO shut down Lebron and served as a 1-2 punch with Duncan to get another chip. That certainly means something beating the other two best of the generation in the way that he did. That trajectory plus potentially winning another finals or two as the underdog would put him up there with Bron and Steph for this era. Doesn't matter I suppose cause now he's a load management meme :lol

[SATAN]

It's hard to say for Kawhi. He was basically a rich man's Ron Artest...which is nasty. He did carry that Raptors team past a championship warriors squad who was looking to 3-peat

They were missing KD and Klay Thompson.

[Dbrog]

They were missing KD and Klay Thompson.

True. The real series that playoffs was Kawhi vs Embiid...that game winner tho

[Axe]

It's hard to say for Kawhi. He was basically a rich man's Ron Artest...which is nasty. He did carry that Raptors team past a championship warriors squad who was looking to 3-peat and ALSO shut down Lebron and served as a 1-2 punch with Duncan to get another chip. That certainly means something beating the other two best of the generation in the way that he did. That trajectory plus potentially winning another finals or two as the underdog would put him up there with Bron and Steph for this era. Doesn't matter I suppose cause now he's a load management meme :lol
Then he felt like he was the bitw that he was so confident he went to the clippers and thought he could bring them home a ring (with pg). Unfortunately everything went downhill for him since then.

[Jasper]

I remember when he was considered a cerebral development of a lab rat of Pop and he created this bball player.

His ape long arms - excellent defender , worked out like no other than MJ , foot work unstoppable

And a fundamental developed jump shot.

This was Pop's dream of a SF in a Tim Duncan's fundamental SF.

Then the shit hit the fan : an injury that projected the Kawhi into no longer a mythological bball chemistry class.
HE WAS HUMAN -------> and wanted out.

Some speculation : was he really hurt , was the injury that bad... only Kawhi knew.

He knew he wanted out.... trip to the finals on a reworked roster that brought him another ring.
But I think even in Toronto , even though he was managed with minutes --> he was never the same.

I have no idea how it happened in San Antonio - but if he was never injuried as a Spur ... he would still be there with several re-worked rosters
to accommodate him to probably 5 rings.

that's how it happens for teams : Once a chip hungry earning team to basically last place.

[Axe]

I remember when he was considered a cerebral development of a lab rat of Pop and he created this bball player.

His ape long arms - excellent defender , worked out like no other than MJ , foot work unstoppable

And a fundamental developed jump shot.

This was Pop's dream of a SF in a Tim Duncan's fundamental SF.

Then the shit hit the fan : an injury that projected the Kawhi into no longer a mythological bball chemistry class.
HE WAS HUMAN -------> and wanted out.

Some speculation : was he really hurt , was the injury that bad... only Kawhi knew.

He knew he wanted out.... trip to the finals on a reworked roster that brought him another ring.
But I think even in Toronto , even though he was managed with minutes --> he was never the same.

I have no idea how it happened in San Antonio - but if he was never injuried as a Spur ... he would still be there with several re-worked rosters
to accommodate him to probably 5 rings.

that's how it happens for teams : Once a chip hungry earning team to basically last place.
It was all zaza's fault lmao. The 2019 ring was actually a payback revenge against the same team (tho z wasn't there anymore).

[Jasper]

It was all zaza's fault lmao. The 2019 ring was actually a payback revenge against the same team (tho z wasn't there anymore).

what did ZAZA P. do ??? My memory is foggy on this ..

[Axe]

what did ZAZA P. do ??? My memory is foggy on this ..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sRmTlaL2GlU

There you go.

[ImKobe]

Coming from a guy who used a TNT poll to prove his point while also ignoring Iverson got over 1 million votes that same year to be a starter in the All star game.

Ok? AI went back to Philly and he's one of the most popular players ever. He put up 15 a game on decent efficiency before the ASB as a Sixer, which was good enough to make the ASG in the East back in those days if you look at some of the players who made it from 2010-18. He didn't deserve to start if we're being objective but it has nothing to do with voting for player of the decade. If Duncan was so much better he'd have been picked over KB, but it wasn't even close.

Most people would tell you that KB was better than Duncan. That's just the facts. People who want to feel smart online cherry-pick some advanced metrics to make their case for Timmy but it doesn't change the fact that KB dusted him H2H in the POs 4 times during their primes. And you can't use the Shaq excuse either because KB led them in scoring and killed the Spurs in crunch time in all 4 of those series.

[kawhileonard2]

say he never missed significant time due to injuries... Where would he rank on the all-time list?

I think as is he probably still makes my top 30 but without injuries probably top 20 ish.

goat

[1987_Lakers]

Ok? AI went back to Philly and he's one of the most popular players ever. He put up 15 a game on decent efficiency before the ASB as a Sixer, which was good enough to make the ASG in the East back in those days if you look at some of the players who made it from 2010-18. He didn't deserve to start if we're being objective but it has nothing to do with voting for player of the decade. If Duncan was so much better he'd have been picked over KB, but it wasn't even close.

Imagine trying to justify a 15 ppg player who provides zero defense and little playmaking as an all-star. Not to mention he missed around 15+ games before the All-star break as well.

Pathetic.

He got over 1,000,000 votes to be a starter. This shows you fan votes are dumb, yet you still use a dumb TNT poll to prove your point.

Duncan > Kobe

[ImKobe]

Imagine trying to justify a 15 ppg player who provides zero defense and little playmaking as an all-star. Not to mention he missed around 15+ games before the All-star break as well.

Pathetic.

He got over 1,000,000 votes to be a starter. This shows you fan votes are dumb, yet you still use a dumb TNT poll to prove your point.

Duncan > Kobe

Can't believe a Laker fan who watched all those series in the 2000s would pick Timmy over Kobe when Kobe outplayed him 4 out of 5 times H2H in the POs that decade lol. I don't know a single legitimate Laker fan who would have this amount of hate for KB.. doesn't make sense.

[Axe]

Can't believe a Laker fan who watched all those series in the 2000s would pick Timmy over Kobe when Kobe outplayed him 4 out of 5 times H2H in the POs that decade lol. I don't know a single legitimate Laker fan who would have this amount of hate for KB.. doesn't make sense.
Key word: shaquille o'neal

[1987_Lakers]

Can't believe a Laker fan who watched all those series in the 2000s would pick Timmy over Kobe when Kobe outplayed him 4 out of 5 times H2H in the POs that decade lol. I don't know a single legitimate Laker fan who would have this amount of hate for KB.. doesn't make sense.

Can't believe a laker fan would disappear from this forum the moment his team won a championship a couple of years ago.

Duncan > Kobe

[nayte]

The same fans who voted in that TNT poll are the same fans who voted past prime Iverson as a starter in the All-star game that very same year. (2010) This shows what popularity can do for a player.

Realgm is looked as the place to go if you want knowledgeable basketball talk, hell even insidehoops was knowledgeable 10+ years ago and both sites have always had Duncan over Kobe.

Truth hurts.

I agree that Duncan is the better player no doubt.im pretty high on him but I don't agree with this reasoning.all star votes are a bit different for me. I do get your point tho

[ImKobe]

Key word: shaquille o'neal

Kobe was the best player in those series, he beat Duncan in 5 without Shaq as well despite Gasol struggling in that series and Timmy nor Bowen could do anything to stop him.

I swear y'all have never watched any of those games


https://youtu.be/qawbo3NOmR4



y'all can't be serious



https://youtu.be/jCG0JIorzGI





https://youtu.be/5aXVxcLm2qQ

'08 KB was getting past anyone and finishing over Duncan at will in crunch time.. something Bran couldn't do the year before. He owned lil Timmy and people are still salty about it years later.

[Axe]

And despite all that, kobe still ended up having no finals mvps until 2009 while the other two were already enjoying having three each. :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

And despite all that, kobe still ended up having no finals mvps until 2009 while the other two were already enjoying having three each. :oldlol:

So you'd take a FMVP over a championship? Curry's 2015 ring isn't worth as much because he didn't get the FMVP? Kawhi's 2014 FMVP is worth more than Kobe's '00-'02 rings? lol.

KB owns Duncan and there's nothing you can do about it.

When TD was a role player in '16 Kawhi still had them as a #1 defense and led them to 67 wins. When TD retired they still had the #1 defense and won 62 games in '17 and they were in a great position to upset the Warriors with Kawhi having a dominant Playoff run (28/8/5/2 on 52/47/93 splits through the first 2 rounds). It was going to be his league for years to come but injuries robbed him of that opportunity. At least he got 1 with the Raptors which is probably worth more than multiple titles in San Antonio.


https://youtu.be/CYEPWf3-A1U

Probably the most dominant Playoff game of his career.

[nayte]

That dude is gonna hate Kobe no matter what.
It's his thing for all that unless your LeBron lol

[Axe]

So you'd take a FMVP over a championship? Curry's 2015 ring isn't worth as much because he didn't get the FMVP? Kawhi's 2014 FMVP is worth more than Kobe's '00-'02 rings? lol.

KB owns Duncan and there's nothing you can do about it.

When TD was a role player in '16 Kawhi still had them as a #1 defense and led them to 67 wins. When TD retired they still had the #1 defense and won 62 games in '17 and they were in a great position to upset the Warriors with Kawhi having a dominant Playoff run (28/8/5/2 on 52/47/93 splits through the first 2 rounds). It was going to be his league for years to come but injuries robbed him of that opportunity. At least he got 1 with the Raptors which is probably worth more than multiple titles in San Antonio.


https://youtu.be/CYEPWf3-A1U

Probably the most dominant Playoff game of his career.
You're overreacting. I was just pointing that out for the sake of pointing out that it took kobe more than ten years to win either league or finals mvp. Which is what separates him from the other atgs despite his successful career.

[ImKobe]

You're overreacting. I was just pointing that out for the sake of pointing out that it took kobe more than ten years to win either league or finals mvp. Which is what separates him from the other atgs despite his successful career.

Shaq & Kobe both lost out on MVPs for playing together, even though their teams weren't loaded like you'd think. Everyone knows the real Finals were played out West in '00-'02 and KB had as much claim as Shaq as the best player on the team if you were paying attention. KB probably wins MVP in '06 if Colorado doesn't happen, even with the shitshow of a roster he had in LA. KB lost 3 seasons of his prime because of the horrible roster around him.

[Axe]

Shaq & Kobe both lost out on MVPs for playing together, even though their teams weren't loaded like you'd think. Everyone knows the real Finals were played out West in '00-'02 and KB had as much claim as Shaq as the best player on the team if you were paying attention. KB probably wins MVP in '06 if Colorado doesn't happen, even with the shitshow of a roster he had in LA. KB lost 3 seasons of his prime because of the horrible roster around him.
'Not loaded'. Yet managed to have two 60-win seasons in three years, a three-peat and the best playoff run in the early 00s. Successive events that allowed his popularity to skyrocket bt. :confusedshrug:

Once kobe lost the perennial pieces (like shaq, fisher and phil) that made his team oustanding title contenders for awhile, nothing good happened for him momentarily. And it was shown that he can't carry random scrubs to the finals.

But sure, it was the fault of the overhauled roster that they can't lead him anywhere. Despite him playing for himself at times and not for the team itself.