Jokic is GOAT-level on offense

[StrongLurk]

Here is what he has done over his last three regular seasons.

197 games (very healthy), 32 PER (MJ/LeBron level of PER), 66.5 TS% (Curry level efficiency), WS/48 .303 (MJ/Lebron level), 130 offensive rating (GOAT-level), 13 BPM (again MJ/Lebron level stuff).

Here is his CAREER ratings all-time.

2nd all-time in PER (between MJ and Lebron).
3rd all-time TS%
4th all-time in WS/48
1st all-time BPM (ahead of MJ/Lebron).
3rd all-time in offensive rating

Jokic simply can't be denied with his impact. Yeah he's average at defense, but that doesn't matter a ton when you are GOAT-level at everything else.

[Im Still Ballin]

1.21 points per possession on 5.4 post-up possessions per game. He's putting up the best back-to-the-basket numbers since maybe the '90s. The only guys that come close in the 21st century are Dirk and Embiid.

[Full Court]

Here is what he has done over his last three regular seasons.

197 games (very healthy), 32 PER (MJ/LeBron level of PER), 66.5 TS% (Curry level efficiency), WS/48 .303 (MJ/Lebron level), 130 offensive rating (GOAT-level), 13 BPM (again MJ/Lebron level stuff).

Here is his CAREER ratings all-time.

2nd all-time in PER (between MJ and Lebron).
3rd all-time TS%
4th all-time in WS/48
1st all-time BPM (ahead of MJ/Lebron).
3rd all-time in offensive rating

Jokic simply can't be denied with his impact. Yeah he's average at defense, but that doesn't matter a ton when you are GOAT-level at everything else.

It does matter though. When you have someone like Hakeem who was top-tier offensively AND elite on defense, it's hard to put Jokic in the same level. Defense especially matters in the post season. Can you imagine if Jokic was a good rim protector? Nuggets would be massive favorites.

[ArbitraryWater]

It does matter though. When you have someone like Hakeem who was top-tier offensively AND elite on defense, it's hard to put Jokic in the same level. Defense especially matters in the post season. Can you imagine if Jokic was a good rim protector? Nuggets would be massive favorites.

Jokic is much better than Hakeem offensively.

Theres levels to this shit.

[RRR3]

Jokic is much better than Hakeem offensively.

Theres levels to this shit.
Full Court is the stupidest person on ISH

[StrongLurk]

It does matter though. When you have someone like Hakeem who was top-tier offensively AND elite on defense, it's hard to put Jokic in the same level. Defense especially matters in the post season. Can you imagine if Jokic was a good rim protector? Nuggets would be massive favorites.

This whole thread is about offense...and you only post about defense. You really are dumb.

[Full Court]

Full Court is the stupidest person on ISH

Standard bitch fit from RRR3tard.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fimages%2F9e10d cacd2226e3f64209cbc5ebd13cd%2Ftenor.gif%3Fitemid%3 D10647085&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=35c2d83dcdaafa0af78de1473845251d00d1bc184a150c d660aae6eb392a96eb&ipo=images

[Full Court]

Jokic is much better than Hakeem offensively.

Theres levels to this shit.

Now that's utter nonsense. Hakeem was objectively better offensively. He was putting up better scoring numbers in the lowest scoring era than Jokic is in this current inflated stats era.

:biggums:

[Full Court]

This whole thread is about offense...and you only post about defense. You really are dumb.

You should read the OP. He states that Jokic is average defensively, and it doesn't matter. I was responding directly to that statement.

You really are dumb.

[fourkicks44]

Now that's utter nonsense. Hakeem was objectively better offensively. He was putting up better scoring numbers in the lowest scoring era than Jokic is in this current inflated stats era.

:biggums:
Good luck trying to convince the Insidehoop's community of that one, brother.

You gonna start an all out war :lol

[Axe]

This whole thread is about offense...and you only post about defense. You really are dumb.
:oldlol:

[RRR3]

Now that's utter nonsense. Hakeem was objectively better offensively. He was putting up better scoring numbers in the lowest scoring era than Jokic is in this current inflated stats era.

:biggums:
You are braindead. Jesus Christ.

[dankok8]

I love Jokic as much as the next guy but much better than Hakeem offensively? No way... He's a better offensive player because he's a superior passer but the era difference cannot be overstated. And I hate to say it but Jokic has to prove more in the playoffs.

[Full Court]

You are braindead. Jesus Christ.

As usual, no actual counterargument. Way to keep that low IQ of yours on full display.

:lebronamazed:

[BigShotBob]

Jokic is much better than Hakeem offensively.

Theres levels to this shit.

You've lost your mind if you think that

[RRR3]

I love Jokic as much as the next guy but much better than Hakeem offensively? No way... He's a better offensive player because he's a superior passer but the era difference cannot be overstated. And I hate to say it but Jokic has to prove more in the playoffs.
It’s true. Deal with it, nostalgia stan.

[BigShotBob]

It’s true. Deal with it, nostalgia stan.

Stop trolling

[ArbitraryWater]

You've lost your mind if you think that

He absoutey is.

Objectivey its pretty damn cear.

Hakeems edge comes with his defense.

Jokic is GOAT top 15 all time bound.

Its solely due to his offense.

[RRR3]

Jokic is easily the best offensive center of all time. Nostalgia stans are so stupid it hurts.

[ralph_i_el]

Now that's utter nonsense. Hakeem was objectively better offensively. He was putting up better scoring numbers in the lowest scoring era than Jokic is in this current inflated stats era.

:biggums:

3x the assists

[dankok8]

Jokic is easily the best offensive center of all time. Nostalgia stans are so stupid it hurts.

Easily better than Kareem and Shaq? :facepalm

[BigShotBob]

He absoutey is.

Objectivey its pretty damn cear.

Hakeems edge comes with his defense.

Jokic is GOAT top 15 all time bound.

Its solely due to his offense.

Jokic has one 40 point in the playoffs and Hakeem has 11

Jokic has 17 30 point games in the playoffs currently

Hakeem has 53

"Best offensive center" doesn't seem to be able to score much when it's required of him

[ralph_i_el]

Nuggets Relative ORtg:

22-23: +3.8
21-22: +2.5
20-21: +4.8

Rockets Relative ORtg

95-96 +1.7
94-95 +1.4
93-94 -0.4
92-93 +1.6

This measures offensive efficiency compared to the average team that year.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jokic has one 40 point in the playoffs and Hakeem has 11

Jokic has 17 30 point games in the playoffs currently

Hakeem has 53

"Best offensive center" doesn't seem to be able to score much when it's required of him

It's almost like Hakeem has played in 100 more playoff games than Jokic, while not being a fraction as good as a playmaker/passer. (Yet still Jokic has the same ratio of 30pt games as Hakeem)

Good take though.

[jayfan]

It's almost like Hakeem has played in 100 more playoff games than Jokic, while not being a fraction as good as a playmaker/passer. (Yet still Jokic has the same ratio of 30pt games as Hakeem)

Good take though.


Hakeem wasn't asked to be a play-maker. No center was back then. The fact that Jokic is a great one, in an era where the game is played differently, doesn't necessarily mean he's the superior player.

Hakeem was a very good passer. Better than most all of the all-time great centers. He could also handle the ball better than most. But he was in a 4-out-1-in system under Rudy.

[ArbitraryWater]

Jokic has one 40 point in the playoffs and Hakeem has 11

Jokic has 17 30 point games in the playoffs currently

Hakeem has 53

"Best offensive center" doesn't seem to be able to score much when it's required of him


Thats a very, very stupid, dumbed down way of comparing offense.

Jokic has payed how many series, for starters?


Are you ppgz fan?

Cause if you compare their offensive impacts, Jokin wins easiy.

Its not rocket science.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Hakeem wasn't asked to be a play-maker. No center was back then. The fact that Jokic is a great one, in an era where the game is played differently, doesn't necessarily mean he's the superior player.

Hakeem was a very good passer. Better than most all of the all-time great centers. He could also handle the ball better than most. But he was in a 4-out-1-in system under Rudy.

One guy is arguably the best passer of all time at any position, the other is Hakeem.

The gap in passing/playmaking is genuinely massive.

Which is why bringing up scoring in the playoffs, when Jokic has played 100 less games and has the same occurrence of 30point outings per game as Hakeem, doesn't seem like a good argument on Hakeems behalf.

We're talking about offense right? Last I checked being an all-time great passer is a pretty important perk. And being one of the most efficient scorers ever at the position, also pretty important.

[RRR3]

Easily better than Kareem and Shaq? :facepalm
Yes? He’s comparable as a scorer, but he runs the entire team’s offense. None of those guys came close to doing that. You’re stuck in the past. Jokic would easily be the GOAT center if he was a great defender.

[Im Still Ballin]

Jokic is like a hybrid of Bird and McHale on the offensive end. Like a center-sized Bird with more pizazz in the paint. He's more difficult to build a winner around compared to Larry. The type of frontcourt player that can help mitigate his weaknesses is a little harder to come by.

[RRR3]

Hakeem wasn't asked to be a play-maker. No center was back then. The fact that Jokic is a great one, in an era where the game is played differently, doesn't necessarily mean he's the superior player.

Hakeem was a very good passer. Better than most all of the all-time great centers. He could also handle the ball better than most. But he was in a 4-out-1-in system under Rudy.
No center is asked to do what Jokic does now either. Name another center who frequently brings the ball up the court.

[Im Still Ballin]

No center is asked to do what Jokic does now either. Name another center who frequently brings the ball up the court.

Crazy to think that he's led the league in touches every season since 2018-2019. How many centers in NBA history can say that? And I'm pretty sure his time of possession is super low compared to his touches.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic has one 40 point in the playoffs and Hakeem has 11

Jokic has 17 30 point games in the playoffs currently

Hakeem has 53

"Best offensive center" doesn't seem to be able to score much when it's required of him

They score pretty much the same rate PER 100 possessions, but Jokic is slightly more efficient.

I don't have Jokic over Hakeem overall, but I think they are worth comparing.

[dankok8]

Yes? He’s comparable as a scorer, but he runs the entire team’s offense. None of those guys came close to doing that. You’re stuck in the past. Jokic would easily be the GOAT center if he was a great defender.

If Jokic does it in the playoffs he will have a case for GOAT offensive center.

You're saying he's easily better than the two best offensive big men of all time which is insane.

[BigShotBob]

Thats a very, very stupid, dumbed down way of comparing offense.

Jokic has payed how many series, for starters?


Are you ppgz fan?

Cause if you compare their offensive impacts, Jokin wins easiy.

Its not rocket science.

It's "dumbed down" because you don't know how to measure offensive impact. If a player scores 25 and another player scores 36 you call the impact "similar" which is insane. Hakeem scoring 36 points does more for his team's offense than Jokic scoring 25 or 26 and dishing out 8-9 assists because the game plan to stop Jokic is to shut down his teammates since he relies on them scoring. Hakeem didn't need his teammates to score more to make his game easier. Hakeem made their game easier by scoring more.


Yes? He’s comparable as a scorer, but he runs the entire team’s offense. None of those guys came close to doing that. You’re stuck in the past. Jokic would easily be the GOAT center if he was a great defender.

He's not "comparable" to the likes of any one of them. Not Charles Barkley or Karl Malone either. Or Dirk or Tim Duncan. So far he hasn't shown that he can take over a playoff game with his scoring consistently. If a series called for him to average 33 points per game (note average 33 points not just score it once or twice) then he would fail. Hakeem has done so enroute to a championship.


Jokic is like a hybrid of Bird and McHale on the offensive end. Like a center-sized Bird with more pizazz in the paint. He's more difficult to build a winner around compared to Larry. The type of frontcourt player that can help mitigate his weaknesses is a little harder to come by.

Jokic's weakness is that he may be an efficient scorer but not an explosive one. If his teammates are shut down then there's nothing he can do for you and suddenly his offensive impact doesn't matter.


They score pretty much the same rate PER 100 possessions, but Jokic is slightly more efficient.

I don't have Jokic over Hakeem overall, but I think they are worth comparing.

Yet they somehow aren't scoring the same throughout a series.

Jokic shouldn't be compared to dominant big men like Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, or any of those guys. Those guys can take over a game with their scoring. Jokic isn't as explosive of a scorer as them. Him (or the system rather) urges him to pass and garner assists, and assists are incumbent on his teammates making shots to make his life easier.

If he has to rely on Will Barton consistently making 3 point shots to open his game up since they are doubling off of him then that's an issue with his offensive game. Players like Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt and Shaq could score through double teams.

[ShawkFactory]

It's "dumbed down" because you don't know how to measure offensive impact. If a player scores 25 and another player scores 36 you call the impact "similar" which is insane. Hakeem scoring 36 points does more for his team's offense than Jokic scoring 25 or 26 and dishing out 8-9 assists because the game plan to stop Jokic is to shut down his teammates since he relies on them scoring. Hakeem didn't need his teammates to score more to make his game easier. Hakeem made their game easier by scoring more.



He's not "comparable" to the likes of any one of them. Not Charles Barkley or Karl Malone either. Or Dirk or Tim Duncan. So far he hasn't shown that he can take over a playoff game with his scoring consistently. If a series called for him to average 33 points per game (note average 33 points not just score it once or twice) then he would fail. Hakeem has done so enroute to a championship.



Jokic's weakness is that he may be an efficient scorer but not an explosive one. If his teammates are shut down then there's nothing he can do for you and suddenly his offensive impact doesn't matter.



Yet they somehow aren't scoring the same throughout a series.

Jokic shouldn't be compared to dominant big men like Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, or any of those guys. Those guys can take over a game with their scoring. Jokic isn't as explosive of a scorer as them. Him (or the system rather) urges him to pass and garner assists, and assists are incumbent on his teammates making shots to make his life easier.

If he has to rely on Will Barton consistently making 3 point shots to open his game up since they are doubling off of him then that's an issue with his offensive game. Players like Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt and Shaq could score through double teams.

Not even going to attempt to get into this because it's wild.

But moral of the story then...you'd comfortably say that Bird was a better offensive player than Magic? Or Drexler for that matter? Or Dominque? Etc.

[StrongLurk]

Not even going to attempt to get into this because it's wild.

But moral of the story then...you'd comfortably say that Bird was a better offensive player than Magic? Or Drexler for that matter? Or Dominque? Etc.

You won't break through with this Bob guy. I've seen his posts...he is firmly in the ppg only matters crowd...can't really have good discussions with dudes like that.

I brought up Magic in this thread earlier...Bob must think Magic was just a regular NBA player scoring 18-20ppg.

[j3lademaster]

Magic Johnson- 12 30 point playoff games, 4 40 point playoff games. 190 games

Allen Iverson- 36 30 point games, 10 40 point games. 71 games

Whoever is taking AI over Magic to start their franchise with....

[Lebron23]

But not in the playoffs

[ShawkFactory]

Magic Johnson- 12 30 point playoff games, 4 40 point playoff games. 190 games

Allen Iverson- 36 30 point games, 10 40 point games. 71 games

Whoever is taking AI over Magic to start their franchise with....

Jason Kidd has 4 30 point playoff games in 158 tries. Gilbert Arenas has 7 in 31

[Axe]

He has to have a better team. I think he'll also benefit being the focal point in a triangle offense.

[BigShotBob]

Not even going to attempt to get into this because it's wild.

But moral of the story then...you'd comfortably say that Bird was a better offensive player than Magic? Or Drexler for that matter? Or Dominque? Etc.

Reading is hard I guess

Bird was regarded as a better scorer than Magic during their primes not sure how that can be argued. He's comparable to Dominique though 'Nique might get the edge and Drexler is around that level. Magic could score when warranted and even looked Lebron-like with his mix of scoring and passing but I'd place him below Bird.


You won't break through with this Bob guy. I've seen his posts...he is firmly in the ppg only matters crowd...can't really have good discussions with dudes like that.

I brought up Magic in this thread earlier...Bob must think Magic was just a regular NBA player scoring 18-20ppg.

Looks like nobody knows how to read anymore.

Magic could score and be an explosive offense force when warranted. He has 4 40 point games in the playoffs. To put that in perspective Charles Barkley has 5.


Magic Johnson- 12 30 point playoff games, 4 40 point playoff games. 190 games

Allen Iverson- 36 30 point games, 10 40 point games. 71 games

Whoever is taking AI over Magic to start their franchise with....

Literally not what I said. Try again.

[Axe]

You won't break through with this Bob guy. I've seen his posts...he is firmly in the ppg only matters crowd...can't really have good discussions with dudes like that.
A lot of guys into michael jordan are. These nutballs are only obsessed with scoring and not anything else.

[StrongLurk]

Reading is hard I guess

Bird was regarded as a better scorer than Magic during their primes not sure how that can be argued. He's comparable to Dominique though 'Nique might get the edge and Drexler is around that level. Magic could score when warranted and even looked Lebron-like with his mix of scoring and passing but I'd place him below Bird.



Looks like nobody knows how to read anymore.

Magic could score and be an explosive offense force when warranted. He has 4 40 point games in the playoffs. To put that in perspective Charles Barkley has 5.



Literally not what I said. Try again.

Surely you'd take Lebron over Kobe all time considering Lebron is a more prolific scorer in the playoffs...right?

[ShawkFactory]

Reading is hard I guess

Bird was regarded as a better scorer than Magic during their primes not sure how that can be argued. He's comparable to Dominique though 'Nique might get the edge and Drexler is around that level. Magic could score when warranted and even looked Lebron-like with his mix of scoring and passing but I'd place him below Bird.





I'm using EXACTLY your logic bro. There is no secret or high IQ interpretation to be had :lol

I didn't ask whether those guys were better scorers, but better offensive players. Which to you appears to be one in the same.

It seems like you're comfortable saying that Bird, Drexler, and Nique are better offensive players than Magic Or that Lebron is a better offensive player than pretty much everyone but MJ

[BigShotBob]

I'm using EXACTLY your logic bro. There is no secret or high IQ interpretation to be had :lol

I didn't ask whether those guys were better scorers, but better offensive players. Which to you appears to be one in the same.

It seems like you're comfortable saying that Bird, Drexler, and Nique are better offensive players than Magic Or that Lebron is a better offensive player than pretty much everyone but MJ

You didn't even read my post.

I talked about scoring and how it relates to offensive impact and then you ask me a random question that involves Bird, Drexler, Nique, and Magic...players that you probably haven't seen footage of outside of Youtube.

Magic has about as many 40 point games in the post season as Charles Barkley. Meaning he is an explosive scorer and is capable of carrying his team through his scoring if need be. Jokic so far only has one.

Jokic for instance, has about as many 30 point games in the playoffs as Embiid and Tatum (both have 15, Jokic has 17) so far.

Jokic has 1 40 point game.

Tatum has 3

Devin Booker has 4

Luka has 8

Being an explosive scorer means that when your teammates aren't hitting their shots, you can takeover offensively.

Hakeem has proven time and time again that he doesn't need to rely on Kenny Smith and Mario Ellie scoring to win a playoff game or a series. When they score it bolsters the team but he can shoulder the offensive burden even while being double teamed or being guarded by the likes of Shaq, Ewing, and Robinson and drop 32+ point games.

Jokic is being guarded by Kevon Looney and Draymond Green and drops 30 points in a 4 point game loss against the Warriors where his supporting cast that game stepped up (for instance, Aaron Gordon had 15 and Klay had 15, Andrew Wiggins scored 11 points and Will Barton scored 14, Jordon Poole had 8 points and Monte Morris had 14, Demarcus Cousins also added 19 points in 15 minutes....)

If Jokic could have exploded for 35+ in that game then that would have been an even series.

There were two 5 point losses where he scored 37 points and lost but again....Hakeem was dropping 3 40 point games in the same series against the Spurs. Jokic hasn't proven that he's capable of doing that.

So calling him a better offensive player than Hakeem is absurd if he can't score more even if he wanted to. Right now all I can say is that he's simply not capable until he proves me otherwise.

[ShawkFactory]

You didn't even read my post.

I talked about scoring and how it relates to offensive impact and then you ask me a random question that involves Bird, Drexler, Nique, and Magic...players that you probably haven't seen footage of outside of Youtube.

Magic has about as many 40 point games in the post season as Charles Barkley. Meaning he is an explosive scorer and is capable of carrying his team through his scoring if need be. Jokic so far only has one.

Jokic for instance, has about as many 30 point games in the playoffs as Embiid and Tatum (both have 15, Jokic has 17) so far.

Jokic has 1 40 point game.

Tatum has 3

Devin Booker has 4

Luka has 8

Being an explosive scorer means that when your teammates aren't hitting their shots, you can takeover offensively.

Hakeem has proven time and time again that he doesn't need to rely on Kenny Smith and Mario Ellie scoring to win a playoff game or a series. When they score it bolsters the team but he can shoulder the offensive burden even while being double teamed or being guarded by the likes of Shaq, Ewing, and Robinson and drop 32+ point games.

Jokic is being guarded by Kevon Looney and Draymond Green and drops 30 points in a 4 point game loss against the Warriors where his supporting cast that game stepped up (for instance, Aaron Gordon had 15 and Klay had 15, Andrew Wiggins scored 11 points and Will Barton scored 14, Jordon Poole had 8 points and Monte Morris had 14, Demarcus Cousins also added 19 points in 15 minutes....)

If Jokic could have exploded for 35+ in that game then that would have been an even series.

There were two 5 point losses where he scored 37 points and lost but again....Hakeem was dropping 3 40 point games in the same series against the Spurs. Jokic hasn't proven that he's capable of doing that.

So calling him a better offensive player than Hakeem is absurd if he can't score more even if he wanted to. Right now all I can say is that he's simply not capable until he proves me otherwise.

Dude I read your post, I just didn’t feel like responding to each aspect of it because I found so much wrong with it. Therefore I made it easier by just making a comparison using the logic you put forth. Not a crazy thing to do..nor was it random.

Your previous statement correlated scoring directly with offensive impact. Are you of the opinion that Booker, Tatum, and Luka are better offensive players than Jokic?

Was Arenas a better offensive player than Nash?

Jokic has averaged 31ppg the last 2 years in the playoffs btw.

[Akeem34TheDream]

But not in the playoffs

I agree Lebron23. I love Jokic's game but he isn't the same guy in the playoffs.

[post]

perhaps bigshotbob actually is robert horry

and is looking for some recognition for what he did

if so

here

good job bob

i appreciate your key contributions to multiple championship teams

i could be way off about this

but hey it's funny to consider

[BigShotBob]

Dude I read your post, I just didn’t feel like responding to each aspect of it because I found so much wrong with it. Therefore I made it easier by just making a comparison using the logic you put forth. Not a crazy thing to do..nor was it random.

Your previous statement correlated scoring directly with offensive impact. Are you of the opinion that Booker, Tatum, and Luka are better offensive players than Jokic?

Was Arenas a better offensive player than Nash?

Jokic has averaged 31ppg the last 2 years in the playoffs btw.

We were comparing Jokic to Hakeem. Jokic is not a better offensive player than Hakeem. His ability to pass doesn't compare to Hakeem's ability to score because they aren't similar levels of scoring.

Hakeem has more 40 point games in one series than Jokic has for his entire playoff career so far.

Steve Nash was an explosive scorer. His career high in the post season is 48. That's 2 less than Kevin Durant's playoff career high.

Steve Nash has 9 30 point playoff games and Gilbert Arenas has 8.

I'm saying as far as we know, Jokic isn't capable of taking the game over with his scoring when it is required and he has a ceiling which limits his offensive impact. A "GOAT" offensive player isn't shut down by his teammate's inability to hit a open 3 or finish plays. They can score in spite of that. Jokic hasn't shown that he can.

Jokic averaged 31 ppg in 4-1 series lost over 5 games. Hakeem averaged 33 points for an entire postseason enroute to a championship.

One is better offensively than the other and it's the not the one that shot 42% in a game 7 against the "almighty" Trailblazers where he got outplayed by CJ McCollum.

The "GOAT" offensive player doesn't shoot 42% in a game 7 at home and lose by 4.

Gary Harris that game scored more than Dame did

[Baller789]

Until Jokic proves this in the playoffs/finals consistently, I'd say he's overrated.

[ShawkFactory]

We were comparing Jokic to Hakeem. Jokic is not a better offensive player than Hakeem. His ability to pass doesn't compare to Hakeem's ability to score because they aren't similar levels of scoring.

I never actually argued that Jokic is better than Hakeem offensively. I just took exception to the reasoning you used, which was archaic. If you were to have simply said that Hakeem proved it in the biggest of series against the best centers of his era then I have no issue at all. But you didn't.


Steve Nash was an explosive scorer. His career high in the post season is 48. That's 2 less than Kevin Durant's playoff career high.

Steve Nash has 9 30 point playoff games and Gilbert Arenas has 8.

It's things like this where I can't tell if you're fvcking with me.

The point I have is that offense is made and can be approached differently by different people. Despite being completely devoid of talent due to injuries the last 2 seasons, the Nuggets have still been a top 5 offense. Jokic is a complete engine who plays the game kind of like early Bird or Duncan in that he doesn't necessarily look to take over purely by scoring. He's leading the charge and does the little things really well.

It's not his fault they haven’t even remotely had the horses until this point. If they stay healthy they're a tough out.

[RRR3]

If Jokic does it in the playoffs he will have a case for GOAT offensive center.

You're saying he's easily better than the two best offensive big men of all time which is insane.
Except he has done it in the playoffs. 24.4 PPG on 61.4 TS% in the 2020 playoffs. 29.8 PPG on 59.1 TS% in the 2021 playoffs. And last year against the Warriors he put up 31.0 PPG on 64.3 TS%, all while also running his team's offense. Jokic is unprecedentedly good on offense, you guys don't realize what you're seeing. It was the same way with Curry, it took forever for people to admit he was the GOAT shooter despite it being obvious early on.

[SouBeachTalents]

I guarantee BigShotBob would say Kobe was a better offensive player than LeBron despite him averaging more ppg, more apg, shooting more efficiently, and having more 30 & 40 point playoff games. Let's see if he can stay consistent.

[RRR3]

I agree Lebron23. I love Jokic's game but he isn't the same guy in the playoffs.
He's put up 26.4/11.5/6.4 on 60.7 TS% in 48 playoff games, you guys really just say stuff without doing basic fact checks :facepalm

[SouBeachTalents]

Except he has done it in the playoffs. 24.4 PPG on 61.4 TS% in the 2020 playoffs. 29.8 PPG on 59.1 TS% in the 2021 playoffs. And last year against the Warriors he put up 31.0 PPG on 64.3 TS%, all while also running his team's offense. Jokic is unprecedentedly good on offense, you guys don't realize what you're seeing. It was the same way with Curry, it took forever for people to admit he was the GOAT shooter despite it being obvious early on.
I feel like by 2016 people were giving Curry his props, and definitely so as a shooter. I get it happens when players are still in the midst of their careers, ESP when they don't have a ring or much playoff success, but there's a real resistance I see from several posters here admitting that Jokic is an ATG player. More than I can honestly remember for another player of this caliber.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jokic certainly has the skills.

His passing and overall playmaking are just flatout incredible. Jokic is also asked to do things guys like Hakeem and Shaq weren't because of who they played with. And how they played and/or dominated (Hakeem in particular focused a lot his energy on defense). Shaq and Hakeem also faced better defenses with higher quality bigmen.

Statistically? In RPM, guys like Luka. Curry and Dame all have higher offensive impact. In overall RAPTOR, Jokic leads, but Luka and Curry are literally right there. Nobody is saying Luka is the GOAT offensive player though. :lol

People claiming Jokic is 'easily' better than Hakeem on offense just don't understand basketball. Or really haven't picked up one. But more likely they refuse to dive deep and use context.

[Axe]

I guarantee BigShotBob would say Kobe was a better offensive player than LeBron despite him averaging more ppg, more apg, shooting more efficiently, and having more 30 & 40 point playoff games. Let's see if he can stay consistent.
He will just move the goalposts in doing so. It's predictable.

[RRR3]

I feel like by 2016 people were giving Curry his props, and definitely so as a shooter. I get it happens when players are still in the midst of their careers, ESP when they don't have a ring or much playoff success, but there's a real resistance I see from several posters here admitting that Jokic is an ATG player. More than I can honestly remember for another player of this caliber.
Eh, a lot of people still refused to admit how transcendent Curry is until he finally won a FMVP. It's similar IMO. Old school stans are obsessed with denying that generational players continue to pop up, it's infuriating. They WANT a worse product so they can feel better about their childhoods :lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Would be interested to hear from HoopsNY. He's like the biggest Hakeem fan on here.

[RRR3]

Jokic certainly has the skills.

His passing and overall playmaking are just flatout incredible. Jokic is also asked to do things guys like Hakeem and Shaq weren't because of who they played with. And how they played and/or dominated (Hakeem in particular focused a lot his energy on defense). Shaq and Hakeem also faced better defenses with higher quality bigmen.

Statistically? In RPM, guys like Luka. Curry and Dame all have higher offensive impact. In overall RAPTOR, Jokic leads, but Luka and Curry are literally right there. Nobody is saying Luka is the GOAT offensive player though. :lol

People claiming Jokic is 'easily' better than Hakeem on offense just don't understand basketball. Or really haven't picked up one. But more likely they refuse to dive deep and use context.
RPM thinks Nikola Vucevic is an elite defender, it's a complete joke since they changed the formula. EPM is far better, it's generally very accurate, although not always.

[ImKobe]

It's hard to put this into an ATG context just based on the stats in this era. There's at least 3 other guys putting up numbers similar to him in the league during this 3-year stretch. Some of the RAPTOR/RPM stuff can be misleading when the guys playing his position off the bench are scrubs like DeAndre Jordan, but his skill is undeniable.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

RPM thinks Nikola Vucevic is an elite defender, it's a complete joke since they changed the formula. EPM is far better, it's generally very accurate, although not always.

When it comes to defense, these box impact stats have always been spotty. I do like EPM though.


It's hard to put this into an ATG context just based on the stats in this era. There's at least 3 other guys putting up numbers similar to him in the league during this 3-year stretch. Some of the RAPTOR/RPM stuff can be misleading when the guys playing his position off the bench are scrubs like DeAndre Jordan, but his skill is undeniable.

Good post and totally agree with the bold.

Fans always say a player 'can do it all' but with Jokic....it isn't hyperbole.

[RRR3]

When it comes to defense, these box 'impact stats' have always been spotty. I do like EPM though.



Good post and totally agree with the bold. When people say a player 'can do it all' but with Jokic....it isn't hyperbole.
EPM is great, first one I've seen that seems (relatively) accurate for defense. It's not perfect but it generally matches my eye test.

[dankok8]

Except he has done it in the playoffs. 24.4 PPG on 61.4 TS% in the 2020 playoffs. 29.8 PPG on 59.1 TS% in the 2021 playoffs. And last year against the Warriors he put up 31.0 PPG on 64.3 TS%, all while also running his team's offense. Jokic is unprecedentedly good on offense, you guys don't realize what you're seeing. It was the same way with Curry, it took forever for people to admit he was the GOAT shooter despite it being obvious early on.

The first two postseasons you listed aren't that good historically. The 2022 playoff is impressive but that's one series.

The TS% should be given as rTS or relative to league average. 60 %TS was very special throughout NBA history. It isn't special today.

[post]

https://i.ibb.co/hWhWR67/maxresdefault-1.jpg

[1987_Lakers]

If we are looking at things objectively, Jokic is a better offensive player than Hakeem. We are talking about a top 5-10 passer of all time and a guy who is an extremely efficient scorer. Scoring around 25 ppg on 70 TS% & dishing out 10 apg all at the same time? Are you kidding me?

I love Hakeem as much as the next dude, he would be my starting center if I had to create an all-time team because of his 2 way greatness, but Jokic is something we have never seen from a center at the offensive end.

[NBAGOAT]

If we are looking at things objectively, Jokic is a better offensive player than Hakeem. We are talking about a top 5-10 passer of all time and a guy who is an extremely efficient scorer. Scoring around 25 ppg on 70 TS% & dishing out 10 apg all at the same time? Are you kidding me?

I love Hakeem as much as the next dude, he would be my starting center if I had to create an all-time team because of his 2 way greatness, but Jokic is something we have never seen from a center at the offensive end.

jokics in the convo with shaq kareem and wilt. at their peaks all better defenders tbf but his offense is that good.

[BigShotBob]

I never actually argued that Jokic is better than Hakeem offensively. I just took exception to the reasoning you used, which was archaic. If you were to have simply said that Hakeem proved it in the biggest of series against the best centers of his era then I have no issue at all. But you didn't.



It's things like this where I can't tell if you're fvcking with me.

The point I have is that offense is made and can be approached differently by different people. Despite being completely devoid of talent due to injuries the last 2 seasons, the Nuggets have still been a top 5 offense. Jokic is a complete engine who plays the game kind of like early Bird or Duncan in that he doesn't necessarily look to take over purely by scoring. He's leading the charge and does the little things really well.

It's not his fault they haven’t even remotely had the horses until this point. If they stay healthy they're a tough out.

My point was two-fold actually as I explained that Hakeem put up more 40 point performances than Jokic has ever done in one series against David Robinson and how Hakeem also performed his best against the best.

At this point I think you're the one that misunderstands. Jokic didn't go against juggernauts every year. He lost to Portland in 2019 at home in a game 7 and shot 42%, choked at the free throw line, and was thoroughly outplayed by CJ McCollum.

The "GOAT" Offensive Center was known for not getting it done when it mattered and he hasn't proven us wrong otherwise. No amount of VORP/BPM/TS% numbers helped him get over the hump against a middling Portland team where Dame scored less points on the road than one of Jokic's "horses" named Gary Harris.

[StrongLurk]

My point was two-fold actually as I explained that Hakeem put up more 40 point performances than Jokic has ever done in one series against David Robinson and how Hakeem also performed his best against the best.

At this point I think you're the one that misunderstands. Jokic didn't go against juggernauts every year. He lost to Portland in 2019 at home in a game 7 and shot 42%, choked at the free throw line, and was thoroughly outplayed by CJ McCollum.

The "GOAT" Offensive Center was known for not getting it done when it mattered and he hasn't proven us wrong otherwise. No amount of VORP/BPM/TS% numbers helped him get over the hump against a middling Portland team where Dame scored less points on the road than one of Jokic's "horses" named Gary Harris.

Dude that was 2019...he's a far better player now. Every all time great except for MJ basically has had bad moments in the playoffs. You just don't like Jokic, it's pretty clear.

[ArbitraryWater]

My point was two-fold actually as I explained that Hakeem put up more 40 point performances than Jokic has ever done in one series against David Robinson and how Hakeem also performed his best against the best.

At this point I think you're the one that misunderstands. Jokic didn't go against juggernauts every year. He lost to Portland in 2019 at home in a game 7 and shot 42%, choked at the free throw line, and was thoroughly outplayed by CJ McCollum.

The "GOAT" Offensive Center was known for not getting it done when it mattered and he hasn't proven us wrong otherwise. No amount of VORP/BPM/TS% numbers helped him get over the hump against a middling Portland team where Dame scored less points on the road than one of Jokic's "horses" named Gary Harris.



your agenda is so blatant lol

[BigShotBob]

If we are looking at things objectively, Jokic is a better offensive player than Hakeem. We are talking about a top 5-10 passer of all time and a guy who is an extremely efficient scorer. Scoring around 25 ppg on 70 TS% & dishing out 10 apg all at the same time? Are you kidding me?

I love Hakeem as much as the next dude, he would be my starting center if I had to create an all-time team because of his 2 way greatness, but Jokic is something we have never seen from a center at the offensive end.

Those aren't impressive numbers to me. Assists are incumbent on teammates hitting their shots. A center shouldn't be shutdown if his teammates aren't hitting outside shots.

That's why Jokic's offensive impact has a ceiling and why most who become his apologists believe that he can only win if he has the best players around him to finish plays for him and to take the offensive burden off of him because his impact scoring wise so far in the playoffs has been limited.

Again, losing to the Trailblazers with homecourt advantage to head to the WCF, at home, against the Trailbalzers, and to shoot 42% against....the great Nurkic I guess isn't above Hakeem offensively.

You all have an idea of Jokic that simply doesn't exist.

Even when he got swept by the Suns, he shot 47% from the field and an amazing 27% from three.

What happened to that amazing efficient scoring?

Not my "GOAT" offensive center.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic with 24/18/13 on 77 TS%...another machine like performance. Dude is basically Dirk with all-time great point guard abilities.

FYI Nuggets are 22-0 this year when the Joker does his trip-dub...

Here is his CAREER ratings all-time.

2nd all-time in PER (between MJ and Lebron).
3rd all-time TS%
4th all-time in WS/48
1st all-time BPM (ahead of MJ/Lebron).
3rd all-time in offensive rating

[BigShotBob]

Dude that was 2019...he's a far better player now. Every all time great except for MJ basically has had bad moments in the playoffs. You just don't like Jokic, it's pretty clear.

When he got swept by the Suns he shot 47% from the field and 27% from three....

"He's a far better player now."

We'll see this year and what excuses you have ready made for him.

[tontoz]

Dude that was 2019...he's a far better player now. Every all time great except for MJ basically has had bad moments in the playoffs. You just don't like Jokic, it's pretty clear.


He always brings up that game seemingly oblivious to how desperate that looks, pointing to one game several years ago.

Jokic took 26 shots that game and had only 2 assists. His teammates were off (Murray 4-18, Milsap 3-13) so he did the Kobe thing "if i am going do i will go down shooting". How often does Jokic take 26 shots? He only did that once this season.

He also had 13 rebounds and 4 blocks that game.

For the series Jokic averaged 27/14/8 with a TS of 61.6%. He led both teams in pts, rebounds and assists ffs. He was easily the best player in the series.

[StrongLurk]

When he got swept by the Suns he shot 47% from the field and 27% from three....

"He's a far better player now."

We'll see this year and what excuses you have ready made for him.

FYI I never said Jokic was the best offensive player of all time. I am just stating he among the best all time.

[ShawkFactory]

My point was two-fold actually as I explained that Hakeem put up more 40 point performances than Jokic has ever done in one series against David Robinson and how Hakeem also performed his best against the best.

At this point I think you're the one that misunderstands. Jokic didn't go against juggernauts every year. He lost to Portland in 2019 at home in a game 7 and shot 42%, choked at the free throw line, and was thoroughly outplayed by CJ McCollum.

The "GOAT" Offensive Center was known for not getting it done when it mattered and he hasn't proven us wrong otherwise. No amount of VORP/BPM/TS% numbers helped him get over the hump against a middling Portland team where Dame scored less points on the road than one of Jokic's "horses" named Gary Harris.

I'm going to again preface this with I'm not arguing that Jokic > Hakeem offensively. I'm only arguing your reasoning.

You're really hung up on 2019...It was Jokic's first time in the playoffs. In Hakeem's first time in the playoffs the Rockets were upset by a .500 Jazz team. Who cares? It's a weak argument on your part.

The last 2 MVP seasons that he's had, he has led top 5 offenses despite a depleted team. Now that they're healthy they're #1. He's the reason for this.

[post]

63/40/82

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/WideeyedUnderstatedCleanerwrasse-size_restricted.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

This dude is harping on literally one game before he even reached his peak. Absolutely asinine argument :lol

It might be even worse than when he genuinely argued LeBron didn’t play well in Game 5 of the 2012 Finals because hr shot 9/19.

[1987_Lakers]

This dude is harping on literally one game before he even reached his peak. Absolutely asinine argument :lol

I remember him saying Tatum didn't play any defense a couple of years ago. Also said Elvin Hayes was the same caliber of a rebounder as Moses Malone.

Dude clearly doesn't know wtf he is talking about.

[Im Still Ballin]

0-3 ft: 77.6% FG -- (30.7% of FGAs)
3-10 ft: 63.7% FG -- (41.1% of FGAs)
10-16ft: 50.7% FG -- (9.2% of FGAs)
16ft+: 60% FG -- (4.5% of FGAs)
3pt: 40.2% 3PT -- (14.5% of FGAs)

Nasty!

[StrongLurk]

0-3 ft: 77.6% FG -- (30.7% of FGAs)
3-10 ft: 63.7% FG -- (41.1% of FGAs)
10-16ft: 50.7% FG -- (9.2% of FGAs)
16ft+: 60% FG -- (4.5% of FGAs)
3pt: 40.2% 3PT -- (14.5% of FGAs)

Nasty!

People hate Jokic because they are ignorant about his talent/skills or they just don't like him because he doesn't fit the NBA/fandom "culture".

Dude is Dirk with Curry-Level efficiency and Magic-level passing.

[3ba11]

Denver or Suns are coming out of the West.

Lakers should have a chance too but underperform their on-paper talent by goat amounts (bad chemistry and brand of ball)

I wasn't sure on Denver until I heard Nick Wright's hate for Jokic and underrating him - Nick is naturally repulsed by great brands of ball and only likes abnormal ball ball-dominators like Luka or Lebron.. It's an indication that Jokic might be about to take over.. it sounds a lot like when he said the Cavs would win in 2017 or hated on Wiggins before Curry made him a winner

[BigShotBob]

I'm going to again preface this with I'm not arguing that Jokic > Hakeem offensively. I'm only arguing your reasoning.

You're really hung up on 2019...It was Jokic's first time in the playoffs. In Hakeem's first time in the playoffs the Rockets were upset by a .500 Jazz team. Who cares? It's a weak argument on your part.

The last 2 MVP seasons that he's had, he has led top 5 offenses despite a depleted team. Now that they're healthy they're #1. He's the reason for this.

I started commenting on the assertion that Jokic was better than Hakeem.

That wasn't the only game I referenced.

Will he also be the reason if they flame out this year?


This dude is harping on literally one game before he even reached his peak. Absolutely asinine argument :lol

It might be even worse than when he genuinely argued LeBron didn’t play well in Game 5 of the 2012 Finals because hr shot 9/19.

I didn't only reference one game but nice try though


I remember him saying Tatum didn't play any defense a couple of years ago. Also said Elvin Hayes was the same caliber of a rebounder as Moses Malone.

Dude clearly doesn't know wtf he is talking about.

I said he wasn't an Elite defender and he wasn't. And you literally never saw Elvin Hayes play so I'm not sure how you can comment on anything he has ever done.

I think it's common sense for people to not comment on players they have never seen play like you consistently do. You're more enamored with the idea of a player than who or what they actually are because you haven't seen them but that's common here

[RRR3]

I started commenting on the assertion that Jokic was better than Hakeem.

That wasn't the only game I referenced.

Will he also be the reason if they flame out this year?



I didn't only reference one game but nice try though



I said he wasn't an Elite defender and he wasn't. And you literally never saw Elvin Hayes play so I'm not sure how you can comment on anything he has ever done.

I think it's common sense for people to not comment on players they have never seen play like you consistently do. You're more enamored with the idea of a player than who or what they actually are because you haven't seen them but that's common here
Literally no one said Jokic was better than Hakeem. We said he’s better on offense. We’re all aware Hakeem is arguably the GOAT defender but this is strictly offense.

[ShawkFactory]

I started commenting on the assertion that Jokic was better than Hakeem.

That wasn't the only game I referenced.

Will he also be the reason if they flame out this year?



Idk. The playoffs haven't happened yet and are irrelevant to the conversation.

[StrongLurk]

Too easy for Joker

[Mask the Embiid]

Here is what he has done over his last three regular seasons.

197 games (very healthy), 32 PER (MJ/LeBron level of PER), 66.5 TS% (Curry level efficiency), WS/48 .303 (MJ/Lebron level), 130 offensive rating (GOAT-level), 13 BPM (again MJ/Lebron level stuff).

Here is his CAREER ratings all-time.

2nd all-time in PER (between MJ and Lebron).
3rd all-time TS%
4th all-time in WS/48
1st all-time BPM (ahead of MJ/Lebron).
3rd all-time in offensive rating

Jokic simply can't be denied with his impact. Yeah he's average at defense, but that doesn't matter a ton when you are GOAT-level at everything else.

https://images.rivals.com/image/upload/f_auto,q_auto,t_headline_primary/nouduwhdkrl1gisx71k9



#nopippen

[StrongLurk]

Denver or Suns are coming out of the West.

Lakers should have a chance too but underperform their on-paper talent by goat amounts (bad chemistry and brand of ball)

I wasn't sure on Denver until I heard Nick Wright's hate for Jokic and underrating him - Nick is naturally repulsed by great brands of ball and only likes abnormal ball ball-dominators like Luka or Lebron.. It's an indication that Jokic might be about to take over.. it sounds a lot like when he said the Cavs would win in 2017 or hated on Wiggins before Curry made him a winner

:lol

[SouBeachTalents]

:lol
And those are the teams that scrub Ant beat too :lol

[NBAGOAT]

:lol

This was last year…