Objectively Speaking - I can't make a case that Bird is a better player than Jokic.

[Carbine]

I know the old heads won't admit it but it's true.

[John8204]

Jokic that would be the player who has never won a championship....

Also correct me if I'm wrong but how many times did the GOAT beat Bird in the playoffs....

Finally um...how many times has Jokic made the top two in All-Star voting

Also if you could kindly name 5 players better than Bird at his position and then name 5 players better than Jokic at his position and we'll compare the lists.

Hope that settled your issues...good luck and have a blessed day

[RRR3]

Jokic that would be the player who has never won a championship....

Also correct me if I'm wrong but how many times did the GOAT beat Bird in the playoffs....

Finally um...how many times has Jokic made the top two in All-Star voting

Also if you could kindly name 5 players better than Bird at his position and then name 5 players better than Jokic at his position and we'll compare the lists.

Hope that settled your issues...good luck and have a blessed day
Fuming.

[1987_Lakers]

On the offensive end Jokic has an edge over Bird. As great of a passer Bird was, he wasn't creating open baskets for his teammates at the volume Jokic is. Both very skilled scorers, Bird scored a little more while Jokic is obviously more efficient.

Jokic's defense is more of a liability. Having your center be a defensive liability can be a huge cause of concern.

[Xiao Yao You]

Jokic that would be the player who has never won a championship....

Also correct me if I'm wrong but how many times did the GOAT beat Bird in the playoffs....

Finally um...how many times has Jokic made the top two in All-Star voting

Also if you could kindly name 5 players better than Bird at his position and then name 5 players better than Jokic at his position and we'll compare the lists.

Hope that settled your issues...good luck and have a blessed day

all star voting? :lol

[StrongLurk]

We can't compare the current NBA to anything previously. I used to do that often, but not anymore. Sure the 80's was fast paced, but damn it's still too different than now.

Uber threes and spacing, more teams in the league, play-in tournaments, and insane international talent. We need to start comparing Jokic to only other players in this era.

[Im Still Ballin]

On the offensive end Jokic has an edge over Bird. As great of a passer Bird was, he wasn't creating open baskets for his teammates at the volume Jokic is. Both very skilled scorers, Bird scored a little more while Jokic is obviously more efficient.

Jokic's defense is more of a liability. Having your center be a defensive liability can be a huge cause of concern.

This is my take. It would be a little bit harder to build a winner with Jokic. You'd need a particular type of frontcourt player that is harder to come by. Think Marion, Kirilenko, McHale, Bobby Jones, Pippen, Jaren Jackson Jr. The era is a factor too. You could run a guy like Garnett, Duncan, Pau, Sheed, or Robinson beside Jokic back in the '00s and earlier.

[Bacchus]

Bird had the best vision and hands of all-time. Not saying he is better than Jokic. This video is amazing though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am56lEY2kVQ

[tontoz]

Let's not forget that Jokic was overweight at overly passive on offense his first few years in the league. It wasn't really until the bubble playoffs that he emerged as an elite player.

Of course Bird was already 23 as a rookie which makes it hard to compare their early years.

[Carbine]

On the offensive end Jokic has an edge over Bird. As great of a passer Bird was, he wasn't creating open baskets for his teammates at the volume Jokic is. Both very skilled scorers, Bird scored a little more while Jokic is obviously more efficient.

Jokic's defense is more of a liability. Having your center be a defensive liability can be a huge cause of concern.

The Nuggets are 12th is drtg with Jokic being the center of that. That's not a big liability to me. It's not like he's surrounded by defensive stalwarts either.

[Kblaze8855]

I know the old heads won't admit it but it's true.


The young heads have never seen one of them play and can barely wrap their heads around how different a game is played around them both. It’s not an argument worth having between age groups.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jokic that would be the player who has never won a championship....

Also correct me if I'm wrong but how many times did the GOAT beat Bird in the playoffs....

Finally um...how many times has Jokic made the top two in All-Star voting

Also if you could kindly name 5 players better than Bird at his position and then name 5 players better than Jokic at his position and we'll compare the lists.

Hope that settled your issues...good luck and have a blessed day
This dude makes idiotic points every time he posts :lol

[ShawkFactory]

Maybe. But you also can't make an objective case that Jokic is better than Bird.

[John8204]

all star voting? :lol

Well...let's talk about All-Star voting, the guy has 2 MVP's and is on the best team in his division and yet to the masses he's like fourth or fifth behind Lebron, Giannis, Durant, and Curry. Larry Bird in his prime wouldn't have been viewed as being behind four other guys.


This dude makes idiotic points every time he posts :lol

And even though they are "idiotic" you have somehow managed to duck hide and avoid countering them.

[tontoz]

Well...let's talk about All-Star voting, the guy has 2 MVP's and is on the best team in his division and yet to the masses he's like fourth or fifth behind Lebron, Giannis, Durant, and Curry. Larry Bird in his prime wouldn't have been viewed as being behind four other guys.






Bird was born in Indiana. He was a national star before he even got to the NBA. Jokic was an unknown foreigner taken in the 2nd round and plays for a team that has its broadcasts blacked out locally.

All Star voting isn't about who's better it's about who is more popular.

[j3lademaster]

Bird had the best vision and hands of all-time. Not saying he is better than Jokic. This video is amazing though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am56lEY2kVQJokic probably has the best hands of all time, and definitely better hands than Larry Bird.

Best vision for non pg's? Lebron, Jokic, Larry Bird... yeah close enough that it isn't worth arguing. Sure. If we throw pg's in the mix it gets a lot more muddy, but still not worth arguing, Bird's vision is definitely all-time.

[j3lademaster]

The Nuggets are 12th is drtg with Jokic being the center of that. That's not a big liability to me. It's not like he's surrounded by defensive stalwarts either.It's definitely much harder to be an elite 2way player now with how advanced the PnR has become. Jokic will get picked on by teams with elite perimeter players(21 Warriors for ex.), but part of it is to make the other team's best offense player work on defense. The same thing would happen to someone like Embiid, who is a pretty good defender.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I would favor Bird in today's era. Just slightly. I think he's easier to build around and his team defense was really good. It would thrive in today's league. Also, I could see Bird being a top 3 point shooter, combined with all-time level IQ and passing. Bird was basically a peremiter version of Jokic with better defensive instincts. I'll take that guy

[John8204]

Bird was born in Indiana. He was a national star before he even got to the NBA. Jokic was an unknown foreigner taken in the 2nd round and plays for a team that has its broadcasts blacked out locally.

All Star voting isn't about who's better it's about who is more popular.

I wouldn't argue with that...but when you are the "best" player in the league two years in a row on the "best team" and still fans haven't bought into you...don't put the guy on the level on all-time greats. He might get there but he also might not and you aren't doing the guy any services by hyping him up like this.

[Xiao Yao You]

Well...let's talk about All-Star voting, the guy has 2 MVP's and is on the best team in his division and yet to the masses he's like fourth or fifth behind Lebron, Giannis, Durant, and Curry. Larry Bird in his prime wouldn't have been viewed as being behind four other guys.



And even though they are "idiotic" you have somehow managed to duck hide and avoid countering them.

Jokic isn't viewed as being behind anyone as his MVP's indicate. AC Green was considered better than Karl Malone one year by your logic

[tontoz]

I wouldn't argue with that...but when you are the "best" player in the league two years in a row on the "best team" and still fans haven't bought into you...don't put the guy on the level on all-time greats. He might get there but he also might not and you aren't doing the guy any services by hyping him up like this.


Fan voting isn't an objective way to rank players. There have been guys making the All-Star game as a starter who didn't even play during the season.

[Phoenix]

Jokic that would be the player who has never won a championship....

Also correct me if I'm wrong but how many times did the GOAT beat Bird in the playoffs....

Finally um...how many times has Jokic made the top two in All-Star voting

Also if you could kindly name 5 players better than Bird at his position and then name 5 players better than Jokic at his position and we'll compare the lists.

Hope that settled your issues...good luck and have a blessed day

What the F does all-star voting have to do with this?

[999Guy]

This is my take. It would be a little bit harder to build a winner with Jokic. You'd need a particular type of frontcourt player that is harder to come by. Think Marion, Kirilenko, McHale, Bobby Jones, Pippen, Jaren Jackson Jr. The era is a factor too. You could run a guy like Garnett, Duncan, Pau, Sheed, or Robinson beside Jokic back in the '00s and earlier.

Jokic isn’t having playoff problems on defense until the mid-10’s.

Any era before that he would be completely fine.

The game is so much more precise on using space and movement compared to even the early 10’s it’s crazy.

The least aggressive offense today, is far more aggressive than any D’Antoni team of pre-2017.

With that said, Jokic would taper down a bit offensively with more traditional play sets pre-space and pace but he would still be best in the league or close offensively, and defensively, facing mid-range pindowns, post-ups, and shrunken down pick and rolls without nearly the same level of understanding of spacing? Jokic would be more than fine defensively.


He’s fine now in the regular season. Teams just get super aggressive in making him guard in space come playoff time. Wouldn’t have happened against even title winning teams of pre-2015.

[Carbine]

I would favor Bird in today's era. Just slightly. I think he's easier to build around and his team defense was really good. It would thrive in today's league. Also, I could see Bird being a top 3 point shooter, combined with all-time level IQ and passing. Bird was basically a peremiter version of Jokic with better defensive instincts. I'll take that guy

Jokic is probably the easiest guy to build around in the league. Possibly ever on offense. Even though he's a high assist player he does not dominate the basketball. He can score off assists just as much as creating the play for others. He is an elite free throw shooting center, he is an elite shooting/spacing center. Best passing center ever.

All of these things make him a one of one when it comes to centers in the history of the game and all of those attributes make the game easier for his teammates.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Jokic is probably the easiest guy to build around in the league. Possibly ever on offense. Even though he's a high assist player he does not dominate the basketball. He can score off assists just as much as creating the play for others. He is an elite free throw shooting center, he is an elite shooting/spacing center. Best passing center ever.

All of these things make him a one of one when it comes to centers in the history of the game and all of those attributes make the game easier for his teammates.

You say he's the easiest guy to build around and then later specify offense and center.

Bird has many of the same attributes as Joker while having the ability to dominate from 3 and be an elite team/help defender. (2 crucial aspects of today's game)

Has the size to play PF, and have the same spacing effect as joker while having much better defensive instincts.

Bird can playmake, catch and shoot from deep, with more versatile D. That's easier to build around.

[ArbitraryWater]

Finally um...how many times has Jokic made the top two in All-Star voting


:biggums::biggums:






:roll::roll::roll:

[RogueBorg]

When a 6'-3" hack can average a triple-double over multiple seasons, it speaks volumes on how easy it is in today's NBA to get stats.

If Jokic is the better player, why hasn't he led Denver to anything?

[tontoz]

When a 6'-3" hack can average a triple-double over multiple seasons, it speaks volumes on how easy it is in today's NBA to get stats.

If Jokic is the better player, why hasn't he led Denver to anything?


He did lead them to the WCF as an underdog the last time his key teammates were healthy. Both Murray and MPJ were out last year. Murray missed the playoffs the last two years.

[Wally450]

The young heads have never seen one of them play and can barely wrap their heads around how different a game is played around them both. It’s not an argument worth having between age groups.

Pretty much. I wasn’t old enough to watch Bird, but I want to pick him off Boston bias, but I’m doing to going to comment on someone I didn’t see play.

[AussieSteve]

I know the old heads won't admit it but it's true.

They are both basketball savants. You can't compare numbers because the eras are so different. Can only compare results and accolades.

Jokic is now approaching the level of 3-peat MVP Bird. But he needs to prove himself a winner before we have a conversation comparing them.

[post]

The Nuggets are 12th is drtg with Jokic being the center of that. That's not a big liability to me. It's not like he's surrounded by defensive stalwarts either.

this is key

jokic is doing his part this year on defense

so are gordon and caldwell-pope

it's the rest of the team that ranges from average to below average

[j3lademaster]

When a 6'-3" hack can average a triple-double over multiple seasons, it speaks volumes on how easy it is in today's NBA to get stats.

If Jokic is the better player, why hasn't he led Denver to anything?You realize people can make the opposite argument as well right?

Lebron played in an era where he isn't allowed to play defense and had multiple seasons where he was an all world defender. Put him in the 90's he's easily a better defender than Pippen and Jordan.

See?

[Full Court]

They are both basketball savants. You can't compare numbers because the eras are so different. Can only compare results and accolades.

Jokic is now approaching the level of 3-peat MVP Bird. But he needs to prove himself a winner before we have a conversation comparing them.

This is spot on. Skill is certainly comparable between the two, although it is difficult to compare across eras. However, accomplishments matter. Until Jokic can win a title or two, Bird stays ahead.

[AlternativeAcc.]

This is spot on. Skill is certainly comparable between the two, although it is difficult to compare across eras. However, accomplishments matter. Until Jokic can win a title or two, Bird stays ahead.

How does Jokic compare to Arvydas Sabonis? Sabonis was a great passing big man as well. Thoughts?

[tontoz]

How does Jokic compare to Arvydas Sabonis? Sabonis was a great passing big man as well. Thoughts?


Sabonis was well past his prime by the time he got to the NBA. He was 31 as a rookie and not very mobile. Bad knees I think. Poor man's Jokic maybe in the NBA. Far better in his 20s.

[Axe]

I thought tazorac made this thread, judging by the thread title itself. Lol.

[Axe]

How does Jokic compare to Arvydas Sabonis? Sabonis was a great passing big man as well. Thoughts?
:roll:

[Gohan]

Well...let's talk about All-Star voting, the guy has 2 MVP's and is on the best team in his division and yet to the masses he's like fourth or fifth behind Lebron, Giannis, Durant, and Curry. Larry Bird in his prime wouldn't have been viewed as being behind four other guys.



And even though they are "idiotic" you have somehow managed to duck hide and avoid countering them.

Dont even respond to southbeach, he gets all his girls off of craigslist. N1gga better off being a virgin

[SouBeachTalents]

Dont even respond to southbeach, he gets all his girls off of craigslist. N1gga better off being a virgin
Only your momma was from craigslist.

[Gohan]

Only your momma was from craigslist.

Youre going too far, watch yo mouth lol jk. Dont be offended by me i was just messing around

[1987_Lakers]

How does Jokic compare to Arvydas Sabonis? Sabonis was a great passing big man as well. Thoughts?

:oldlol:

[mr4speed]

You say he's the easiest guy to build around and then later specify offense and center.

Bird has many of the same attributes as Joker while having the ability to dominate from 3 and be an elite team/help defender. (2 crucial aspects of today's game)

Has the size to play PF, and have the same spacing effect as joker while having much better defensive instincts.

Bird can playmake, catch and shoot from deep, with more versatile D. That's easier to build around.

Good post and Bird was also a great FT shooter. I would love to see Bird in this era!

[imdaman99]

I like jokic a lot but not there. Let him win a ring, I know he's capable of it. Just gotta put it all together like olajuwon did. The only negative to jokic is yeah, teams will run him through a lot of pick and rolls come playoffs. I know his weight is part of his charm and prob helps him with his efficiency, but he's gotta move his feet better to defend adequately.

[Axe]

I like jokic a lot but not there. Let him win a ring, I know he's capable of it. Just gotta put it all together like olajuwon did. The only negative to jokic is yeah, teams will run him through a lot of pick and rolls come playoffs. I know his weight is part of his charm and prob helps him with his efficiency, but he's gotta move his feet better to defend adequately.
He'll likely win a ring compared to someone like damian lillard.