We can't compare old Lebron to old MJ

[StrongLurk]

The league actually got slower/harder to score in the OLDER MJ got...his Wizards years were right in the middle of the no-offense era.

For Lebron, the league went into turbo-drive basically since he turned 35. All offense era. That doesn't mean that Lebron still isn't insanely elite for his age...but old Lebron plays in a completely different NBA than old MJ. Shit Lebron still isn't at MJ's age on the Wizards.

But yeah, let's just admit that the comparisons don't work. We know Lebron's stats would definitely be less to some degree if you put his current version into the 2002-2003 NBA and MJ's stats would be higher in the 2022-2023 NBA.

[PeroAntic]

Of course the comparisons dont work but watch the MJ and Bron stans argue they do in favor of their guy in 3 2 1...

[ImKobe]

Lebron right now is 7th in ppg with 29.5
MJ in 2002 had the 9th highest scoring average at 22.9 (ruined his averages by playing limited minutes at the end of the year).

The league average TS% has gone from 52 to 58 as well.

[StrongLurk]

Bron's advanced stats are probably better...but damn I just don't care honestly. The eras were too different.

[RRR3]

Lebron right now is 7th in ppg with 29.5
MJ in 2002 had the 9th highest scoring average at 22.9 (ruined his averages by playing limited minutes at the end of the year).

The league average TS% has gone from 52 to 58 as well.
LeBron is above league average efficiency. MJ was significantly below. Next.

[Gohan]

LeBron is above league average efficiency. MJ was significantly below. Next.

Damn youre retarded, you got lebrons d1ck so far down your throat you cant even be objective

Good observation op

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron right now is 7th in ppg with 29.5
MJ in 2002 had the 9th highest scoring average at 22.9 (ruined his averages by playing limited minutes at the end of the year).

The league average TS% has gone from 52 to 58 as well.

and what was their respective TS% ?

[Johnny32]

you can compare each player to the league average, tardboy.

Warning: prepare to have more LeHurtFeelings.

[ImKobe]

LeBron is above league average efficiency. MJ was significantly below. Next.

It's a lot easier to put up numbers now is the point really. MJ was still really good relative to what other perimeter players were averaging at the time.

[Airupthere]

Yeah, Jahidi White and Popeye Jones really opened up the game for old MJ.

[Xiao Yao You]

both old guys that could still play on bad teams when their aging bodies allowed them on the floor.

[RRR3]

It's a lot easier to put up numbers now is the point really. MJ was still really good relative to what other perimeter players were averaging at the time.
And yet LeBron is efficient and MJ was a brick artist. It’s perfectly reasonable to have MJ ranked over LeBron all time but when they were both 38 LeBron was undeniably better.

[1987_Lakers]

LeBron is above league average efficiency. MJ was significantly below. Next.

Thread over

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bron is 38.

Same age as MJ when he began playing in Washington.

However you cut it, Lebron at this stage is a better player. His combination of durability and longevity is just improbable.

[SouBeachTalents]

Bron is 38.

Same age as MJ when he began playing in Washington.

However you cut it, Lebron at this stage is a better player. His combination of durability and longevity is just improbable.
And he’s played SIGNIFICANTLY more minutes, 65000-48000, which for reference that difference would be Jayson Tatum’s entire career so far.

[ArbitraryWater]

It's a lot easier to put up numbers now is the point really. MJ was still really good relative to what other perimeter players were averaging at the time.

No, the point is that even adjusting for TS% changes, leBron is sti far more efficient.

[Bankaii]

Bron's advanced stats are probably better...but damn I just don't care honestly. The eras were too different.
So just ignore the objective stats because you subjectively don’t agree with it?:oldlol:

[RRR3]

You are not going to win a longevity argument versus LeBron. MJ stans really want him to be the best at everything lol

[dankok8]

Lebron at 38 is better than Jordan at 38. Anyone reasonable would concede that but honestly it's not that important...

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron at 38 is better than Jordan at 38. Anyone reasonable would concede that but honestly it's not that important...

It wouldnt be important if leBron was not a top 10 payer or could not be won a ring with, but you still can. So it obviousy matters.

[dankok8]

It wouldnt be important if leBron was not a top 10 payer or could not be won a ring with, but you still can. So it obviousy matters.

From a pure career value standpoint like Ben Taylor's CORP model for example Lebron has long passed Jordan. For me personally the career value argument is flawed but if you say Lebron is GOAT based on career value I won't argue that. I'll simply acknowledge that we have different criteria.

[TheMan]

It's not up for debate that 38 year old LBJ is better than 38 year old MJ just like peak MJ was better than peak LBJ

[ArbitraryWater]

It's not up for debate that 38 year old LBJ is better than 38 year old MJ just like peak MJ was better than peak LBJ

that is very much up for debate considering every metric woud point to it being close :lol

[RRR3]

From a pure career value standpoint like Ben Taylor's CORP model for example Lebron has long passed Jordan. For me personally the career value argument is flawed but if you say Lebron is GOAT based on career value I won't argue that. I'll simply acknowledge that we have different criteria.
LeBron is clearly better than Jordan based on total value added but that’s not how I would rank GOAT tbh. Karl Malone added more total value than most but I’m not sure he’d make my top 20. LeBron is absolutely top 3 though. I have him second.

[Hey Yo]

If Jordan didn't take almost 5yrs off..... we wouldn't ne talking about his numbers at age 38.

They wouldn't exist.

[AlternativeAcc.]

If Jordan didn't take almost 5yrs off..... we wouldn't ne talking about his numbers at age 38.

They wouldn't exist.

Yeah, like southbeach mentioned, the amount of miles at the same age aren't even close. And yet LeBron still blows him out of the water at the same age... still getting championship expectations too with bad rosters.

Jordan was just a typical weak-minded druggie degenerate type. Constantly quitting, drinking, gambling. Just a loser like his kids. LeBron is the opposite despite growing up without a dad and a drug addicted mom.

Jordan had potential but didn't have the winning mind. Pretty sad story

[HALLandOATES]

Lebron at 38 is better than Jordan at 38. Anyone reasonable would concede that but honestly it's not that important...

Its not as far off as people think…

MJ at 38 got going before he got hurt, he had 2-3 years off …he needed that dust to settle..

27ppg 46% in last 20 games in 2001

Injuries/longevity are apart of it all though.. but 38 year old MJ was gonna average 27-28 if he didnt get hurt , let alone skip 2-3 years who knows what he would of done. He probably would of continued were he left off in 98

[StrongLurk]

I mean...the average NBA team scores like 20 more ppg now than they did in the early 2000s. It's just radically different. At some point we stopped looking at Wilt's numbers compared to other generations because the game was too different back then.

We can state with certainty that OLD MJ would be more efficient on offense and produce more if he played now than in 2002. Idk how much more, but it would be more. It's not a knock on current players, it's just acknowledging the change in style of play.

[RRR3]

I mean...the average NBA team scores like 20 more ppg now than they did in the early 2000s. It's just radically different. At some point we stopped looking at Wilt's numbers compared to other generations because the game was too different back then.

We can state with certainty that OLD MJ would be more efficient on offense and produce more if he played now than in 2002. Idk how much more, but it would be more. It's not a knock on current players, it's just acknowledging the change in style of play.
He was below league average efficiency. By a lot. LeBron is above league average efficiency. I’m not comparing their efficiency directly I’m comparing it to the rest of the leagues they played in. MJ has zero case. Cope

[StrongLurk]

He was below league average efficiency. By a lot. LeBron is above league average efficiency. I’m not comparing their efficiency directly I’m comparing it to the rest of the leagues they played in. MJ has zero case. Cope

But there is a tipping point eventually where it's easier to be above league average in efficiency. I know that sounds strange, but MJ would get so many more attempts to drive to the basket for easy layups. Do you really think he would have Westbrook like efficiency in this current league?

Also to be fair, technically MJ was 38-39 in his first Wizards season. Lebron this year was 37-38...so we still have another year to see what Lebron will be like.

It's not like Lebron is super efficient this year...he's ranked 170 in TS%. Ranking 170 in TS% in 2003 was only 50.8 TS%.

Lebron would have to rely a lot more on his jumper in the early 2000's and his main attack (rim attack) would definitely be cut down in opportunities. He also wouldn't be allowed to jack up 8 threes a game, so again more post and mid range play from him.

[AlternativeAcc.]

But there is a tipping point eventually where it's easier to be above league average in efficiency. I know that sounds strange, but MJ would get so many more attempts to drive to the basket for easy layups. Do you really think he would have Westbrook like efficiency in this current league?

Also to be fair, technically MJ was 38-39 in his first Wizards season. Lebron this year was 37-38...so we still have another year to see what Lebron will be like.

He wouldn't have any attempts to drive to the basket for easy layups because he wouldn't have the ball in his hands. And didn't have the explosiveness at that age to even do what you're talking about.

He was literally chucking 15 midrange shots a game. On bad efficiency.

He wouldn't be able to play in today's "marathon style" game where movement is paramount. His style isn't built for it (it's the worst style possible) and his body wouldn't be able to handle it.

You are just wrong.

[RRR3]

But there is a tipping point eventually where it's easier to be above league average in efficiency. I know that sounds strange, but MJ would get so many more attempts to drive to the basket for easy layups. Do you really think he would have Westbrook like efficiency in this current league?

Also to be fair, technically MJ was 38-39 in his first Wizards season. Lebron this year was 37-38...so we still have another year to see what Lebron will be like.

It's not like Lebron is super efficient this year...he's ranked 170 in TS%. Ranking 170 in TS% in 2003 was only 50.8 TS%.

Lebron would have to rely a lot more on his jumper in the early 2000's and his main attack (rim attack) would definitely be cut down in opportunities. He also wouldn't be allowed to jack up 8 threes a game, so again more post and mid range play from him.
:facepalm Holy shit.

League average means the average of the league, how would it ever get “easier” to be above average you idiot?

[ArbitraryWater]

But there is a tipping point eventually where it's easier to be above league average in efficiency. I know that sounds strange, but MJ would get so many more attempts to drive to the basket for easy layups. Do you really think he would have Westbrook like efficiency in this current league?

yea this thing, phenomenon, whatever, does not exist. literally does not exist.

[StrongLurk]

:facepalm Holy shit.

League average means the average of the league, how would it ever get “easier” to be above average you idiot?

Because it depends on your skillset/abilities. Some players are more effected by era than others, hence some players would have an easier time getting above average efficiency depending on the rules/brand of ball being played. If the era allows someone to play more to their strengths then they COULD have an easier time getting high TS% relative to league average.

Someone who is 150 in TS% or EFG% NOW wouldn't automatically rank 150 in other eras. Get what I mean?

Do you think Steph Curry would be king of TS% in 2002 when coaches would cut his three point attempts in half or more? What about in 1975 with no three point line?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Also to be fair, technically MJ was 38-39 in his first Wizards season. Lebron this year was 37-38...so we still have another year to see what Lebron will be like

You keep saying this, but Lebron is 38 just like MJ was. And like it has been pointed out, Lebron's also got more minutes played. A lot more.

Nobody is denying that its easier to score now. Frankly, though, the difference likely isn't as much as you think. That version of MJ wasn't in the shape Lebron is now. Nor did he have the same strength, speed or finishing ability. The era disparity doesnt just leapfrog 38 year old MJ over Lebron.

I say that as someone who has peak and prime MJ as the best ever.

[RRR3]

Because it depends on your skillset/abilities. Some players are more effected by era than others, hence some players would have an easier time getting above average efficiency depending on the rules/brand of ball being played. If the era allows someone to play more to their strengths then they COULD have an easier time getting high TS% relative to league average.

Someone who is 150 in TS% or EFG% NOW wouldn't automatically rank 150 in other eras. Get what I mean?

Do you think Steph Curry would be king of TS% in 2002 when coaches would cut his three point attempts in half or more? What about in 1975 with no three point line?
Yes Curry would be a TS% god in 2002, Reggie Miller and Ray Allen were so why wouldn’t he :facepalm

It’s useless to compare the game before the 3pt line existed as it was very different

[8Ball]

Old LeBron = 2nd team all NBA.

Old Jordan = garbage.


Yes we can compare the 2.

[Axe]

What about old kobe? :(