Has Jokic played with an all-star/all-NBA player?

[StrongLurk]

Has he?

[SouBeachTalents]

Idk

[tontoz]

Millsap was an All Star the year before he came to Denver. He was washed by the time Jokic got really good.

[RRR3]

Not really. Maybe Millsap but I feel like he declined once he got to Denver.

[ShawkFactory]

Oh wow, yea. Jokic has never played with someone who has been an all star on the Nuggets.

[RRR3]

Oh wow, yea. Jokic has never played with someone who has been an all star on the Nuggets.
But he should have a ring according to idiots :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

Oh wow, yea. Jokic has never played with someone who has been an all star on the Nuggets.
Not only that, his two best teammates have been perpetually hurt the last 2 years.

[RRR3]

Not only that, his two best teammates have been perpetually hurt the last 2 years.
Real winners would win a ring with Aaron Gordon as their second option.

[Axe]

The warriors beat a hampered nuggets team otw to the finals last year. Anyone still remember?

[Dbrog]

It's funny listening to sports radio in Denver...they are even more delusional than most of you here :lol

They've been going hard about the Nuggets having a "big 4" that is just as good or better than the Suns if everyone is healthy on both squads :roll:

[Real Men Wear Green]

Before he got hurt a few years ago Murray was very good and he's almost a 20ppg gut this year. Nuggets in general don't have a second superstar but have a few high end roleplayers with Murray Gordon and others. One of them might make allstar next year.

[NBAGOAT]

It's funny listening to sports radio in Denver...they are even more delusional than most of you here :lol

They've been going hard about the Nuggets having a "big 4" that is just as good or better than the Suns if everyone is healthy on both squads :roll:

tbf the suns dont have a "big 4" either but they're really underrating booker

[Gohan]

Murray is the only reason why they got past the first round in 2020. And when hes been hurt it shows cause they are just first round fodder with jokic. He cant do it by himself though. But lets not act like murray aint go prime iverson on the jazz

[StrongLurk]

Before he got hurt a few years ago Murray was very good and he's almost a 20ppg gut this year. Nuggets in general don't have a second superstar but have a few high end roleplayers with Murray Gordon and others. One of them might make allstar next year.

So your answer to the OP is no?

Jokic is a GOAT-level offensive player who has carried a decent Denver franchise over the last few years.

This dude would easily win a ring if he had the talent that a few other teams have, which is why I made the OP.

Jokic haters are dumb as hell.

[tontoz]

Murray is the only reason why they got past the first round in 2020. And when hes been hurt it shows cause they are just first round fodder with jokic. He cant do it by himself though. But lets not act like murray aint go prime iverson on the jazz


Nonsense. They won the first round two years ago without Murray. The only time they lost in the first round was against GS last season without MPJ and Murray. Jokic abused GS with 31/13 and a 64% TS.

For his career Jokic averages 26/11/6 in the playoffs with a TS of 61%.

[Real Men Wear Green]

So your answer to the OP is no?


I don't think what I write requires your misinterpretation. Murray has been just as good as some of the guards that made the ASG over him. It doesn't mean Jokic isn't great. Like a lot of stans you f feel the need to denigrate all the guys around your gut to try and make him look better. Reality is not that simple.

[ImKobe]

Bubble Murray. The one time Jokic got to the WCF he was arguably the 2nd best player on his team. B2B 50+ pt Playoff games with a 40-burger right after vs. Utah. 40 in Game 7 against the Clippers. Nuggets this year have 4 guys averaging 17+ ppg. No excuses.

[tontoz]

I don't think what I write requires your misinterpretation. Murray has been just as good as some of the guards that made the ASG over him. It doesn't mean Jokic isn't great. Like a lot of stans you f feel the need to denigrate all the guys around your gut to try and make him look better. Reality is not that simple.

The only season he has a realistic chance to make the AS game was the year he got hurt. Prior to that he had no chance. 18/5 isn't making the AS game.

[StrongLurk]

Bubble Murray. The one time Jokic got to the WCF he was arguably the 2nd best player on his team. B2B 50+ pt Playoff games with a 40-burger right after vs. Utah. 40 in Game 7 against the Clippers. Nuggets this year have 4 guys averaging 17+ ppg. No excuses.

Weren't you always saying the bubble didn't count because Lebron hoisted another ring/FMVP trophy?

[ImKobe]

The only season he has a realistic chance to make the AS game was the year he got hurt. Prior to that he had no chance. 18/5 isn't making the AS game.

20/4/6 this season and that's with him starting out slow after being out for over a year. He's been averaging 22/4/6 on 47/41/90 splits over the last 2 months. Barring injury, he's a solid 2nd option to have in the POs. He put up 21/4/5 in his first ever Playoff run and the other one was in the bubble when he averaged 27/5/7 on ~63%TS.

Murray needs to be more durable to make the ASG. He has great stretches where he looks like a legitimate All-Star. Prior to his ACL injury game in 2021 he had been on a 25-game stretch of averaging 24/4/5 on 51/46/94 splits or ~64%TS.


Weren't you always saying the bubble didn't count because Lebron hoisted another ring/FMVP trophy?

I said it had an asterisk given the circumstances (resting a full off-season, no traveling, no fans) but it still counts for something.

[NBAGOAT]

There’s not a year murray should’ve made the all star game. He started slow on 2021 too. He’s capable of playing at an all nba lvl at times but he’s too streaky and acl injury was unlucky too

[Jasper]

Before he got hurt a few years ago Murray was very good and he's almost a 20ppg gut this year. Nuggets in general don't have a second superstar but have a few high end roleplayers with Murray Gordon and others. One of them might make allstar next year.

Murray has been bumped because the west is top heavy in guards.

[jayfan]

Real winners would win a ring with Aaron Gordon as their second option.


:lol

[Full Court]

There's a reason he'll probably get his third MVP in a row...

[Real Men Wear Green]

The only season he has a realistic chance to make the AS game was the year he got hurt. Prior to that he had no chance. 18/5 isn't making the AS game.

Kyle Korver once made allstar averaging 12 points. He was an outlier but if he did that while playing with Jokic it would mean that Jokic technically played with an allstar. Let's stop just pinning whether or not a player has good teammates on the result of a popularity vote and actually discusses the quality of the players. Jamal murray is averaging 20 and 6 right now. He is just as good as some of the guys in the allstar game. That doesn't mean Jokic shouldn't win mvp but people should not act like a guy that plays on their fave's team isn't a good player just because of some random changeable standard.

[SaltyMeatballs]

He's definitely played with all-star talent

Murray, MPJ, and Gordon this season are all all-star level talents

[tontoz]

Kyle Korver once made allstar averaging 12 points. He was an outlier but if he did that while playing with Jokic it would mean that Jokic technically played with an allstar. Let's stop just pinning whether or not a player has good teammates on the result of a popularity vote and actually discusses the quality of the players. Jamal murray is averaging 20 and 6 right now. He is just as good as some of the guys in the allstar game. That doesn't mean Jokic shouldn't win mvp but people should not act like a guy that plays on their fave's team isn't a good player just because of some random changeable standard.


The only reason Korver made it is because his coach was coaching the East. Bud picked 4 Hawks including Teague (Korver was an injury replacement), completely shameless. The only other time 4 guys from the same team made it was the C's in 2011.

Looking at the caliber of guards in the West now, Murray isn't close this year. The reserves in the West were Ja/Dame/SGA/PG13. Injury replacements Ant and Fox are also playing better than Murray.

Murray missed the playoffs the last two years. Prior to that he simply wasn't All-Star caliber.

[Real Men Wear Green]

The only reason Korver made it is because his coach was coaching the East. Bud picked 4 Hawks including Teague (Korver was an injury replacement), completely shameless. The only other time 4 guys from the same team made it was the C's in 2011.

Looking at the caliber of guards in the West now, Murray isn't close this year. The reserves in the West were Ja/Dame/SGA/PG13. Injury replacements Ant and Fox are also playing better than Murray.

Murray missed the playoffs the last two years. Prior to that he simply wasn't All-Star caliber.

Tie point on Korver would be more relevant if this topic wasn't being such a stickler for the title of allstar. That title is being treated like its the only thing that matters and not what the player being discussed is actually doing. WC guards are strong enough that I wouldn't argue murray was snubbed which is why I point at Murray being as good as some of the Allstars in general. He's on par with Jrue Holiday and Jaren Jackson, if he was traded for one of those two guys you might say that they're a little better but it wouldn't be some kind of robbery. A guard that averages 20 and 6 is generally allstar worthy. The fact he didn't make it is the technicality that this topic hinges on but acting like he isn't a good second option that the team counts on is silly.

[tontoz]

Tie point on Korver would be more relevant if this topic wasn't being such a stickler for the title of allstar. That title is being treated like its the only thing that matters and not what the player being discussed is actually doing. WC guards are strong enough that I wouldn't argue murray was snubbed which is why I point at Murray being as good as some of the Allstars in general. He's on par with Jrue Holiday and Jaren Jackson, if he was traded for one of those two guys you might say that they're a little better but it wouldn't be done kind of robbery. A guard that averages 20 and 6 is generally allstar worthy. The fact he didn't make it is the technicality that this topic hinges on but acting like he isn't a good second option that the team counts on is silly.


It isn't a technicality that Murray hasn't even played in the playoffs the last two years.

Murray is not on the same level as Holiday. Holiday has been on the All-Defense team 4 times and is averaging the same ppg with slightly better efficiency. Jackson made the All-Defense 1st team last year.

[j3lademaster]

The only reason Korver made it is because his coach was coaching the East. Bud picked 4 Hawks including Teague (Korver was an injury replacement), completely shameless. The only other time 4 guys from the same team made it was the C's in 2011.

Looking at the caliber of guards in the West now, Murray isn't close this year. The reserves in the West were Ja/Dame/SGA/PG13. Injury replacements Ant and Fox are also playing better than Murray.

Murray missed the playoffs the last two years. Prior to that he simply wasn't All-Star caliber.06 Pistons had 4 guys on the allstar team that year: Billups, Hamilton and the 2 Wallaces

[tontoz]

06 Pistons had 4 guys on the allstar team that year: Billups, Hamilton and the 2 Wallaces


I just misread the article. 2011 was the last time it happened, obviously not the only time.

[Real Men Wear Green]

It isn't a technicality that Murray hasn't even played in the playoffs the last two years.

Murray is not on the same level as Holiday. Holiday has been on the All-Defense team 4 times and is averaging the same ppg with slightly better efficiency. Jackson made the All-Defense 1st team last year.Joel Embiid is a great defender. Nikola Jokic is not. Yet Jokic is still running away with the MVP award. Reality is that defense is only barely considered with these types of honors. Which is one more reason why it's dumb to act like Jokic doesn't have good teammates just because they aren't making allstar games. And Murray not being in the playoffs in recent years doesn't change the fact that he's had some very good playoff games playing as one of Jokic' teammates. In fact in the 2020 playoffs Murray averaged more points than Jokic. 26.5ppg over 19 games in that run. He did more than most Allstars that postseason but somehow it's a big deal that technically he wasn't an allstar that year?

[tontoz]

Joel Embiid is a great defender. Nikola Jokic is not. Yet Jokic is still running away with the MVP award. Reality is that defense is only barely considered with these types of honors. Which is one more reason why it's dumb to act like Jokic doesn't have good teammates just because they aren't making allstar games. And Murray not being in the playoffs in recent years doesn't change the fact that he's had some very good playoff games playing as one of Jokic' teammates. In fact in the 2020 playoffs Murray averaged more points than Jokic. 26.5ppg over 19 games in that run. He did more than most Allstars that postseason but somehow it's a big deal that technically he wasn't an allstar that year?


Holiday has a well known reputation as a defender and that was a big key in their title run. If two guys are producing the same on offense then the guy who is a much better defender is the better player.

Nobody is comparable to Jokic on offense right now.

The last time Murray played in the playoffs they he did play very well and they made the WCF. Of course there was a 3 month break in the middle of the season which probably won't happen again.

[j3lademaster]

Joel Embiid is a great defender. Nikola Jokic is not. Yet Jokic is still running away with the MVP award. Reality is that defense is only barely considered with these types of honors. Which is one more reason why it's dumb to act like Jokic doesn't have good teammates just because they aren't making allstar games. And Murray not being in the playoffs in recent years doesn't change the fact that he's had some very good playoff games playing as one of Jokic' teammates. In fact in the 2020 playoffs Murray averaged more points than Jokic. 26.5ppg over 19 games in that run. He did more than most Allstars that postseason but somehow it's a big deal that technically he wasn't an allstar that year?I don't know if I'd go as far as 'great' to describe Embiid's defense, but we might just have different arbitrary definitions. Great rim protector, for sure. Embiid's good and Jokic is average, but put Embiid up against that 22 Warriors squad and he's getting hunted in PnR's all the same with similar results, the 22 Warriors' perimeter threats were too good to let a big center lock them down. And it wouldn't even necessarily be an insult to his defense. Make the other team's best player work is always going to be the way to win, and guard play in the west is too good for any true center to keep up with. It's why Gobert's looked so bad, dude would fair far better in the East making Giannis and Embiid work for buckets.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Holiday has a well known reputation as a defender and that was a big key in their title run. If two guys are producing the same on offense then the guy who is a much better defender is the better player.

Nobody is comparable to Jokic on offense right now.

The last time Murray played in the playoffs they he did play very well and they made the WCF. Of course there was a 3 month break in the middle of the season which probably won't happen again.

What does the 3 month break have to do with anything? Do you subscribe to the theory that the pass bubble ring doesn't count (as of everyone else didn't have the same time off)? That's irrelevant. The important part is that Murray was scoring about as well as any second option ever has. In fact it could be argued that in that postseason he was the first option. If he is averaging 26.5 points in the playoffs how is it important that he technically was not an allstar?

[Real Men Wear Green]

I don't know if I'd go as far as 'great' to describe Embiid's defense, but we might just have different arbitrary definitions. Great rim protector, for sure. Embiid's good and Jokic is average, but put Embiid up against that 22 Warriors squad and he's getting hunted in PnR's all the same with similar results, the 22 Warriors' perimeter threats were too good to let a big center lock them down. And it wouldn't even necessarily be an insult to his defense. Make the other team's best player work is always going to be the way to win, and guard play in the west is too good for any true center to keep up with. It's why Gobert's looked so bad, dude would fair far better in the East making Giannis and Embiid work for buckets.

If Embiid isn't a great defender then it's hard to say which center is. In order to be a great defensive center a guy had to protect the rim. The list of guys that do that better than Embiid is extremely short and the way that they are all dealt with is to throw a shooter out there that he has to either chase outside and leave the paint open or surrender threes.

[ArbitraryWater]

Joel Embiid is a great defender. Nikola Jokic is not. Yet Jokic is still running away with the MVP award. Reality is that defense is only barely considered with these types of honors. Which is one more reason why it's dumb to act like Jokic doesn't have good teammates just because they aren't making allstar games. And Murray not being in the playoffs in recent years doesn't change the fact that he's had some very good playoff games playing as one of Jokic' teammates. In fact in the 2020 playoffs Murray averaged more points than Jokic. 26.5ppg over 19 games in that run. He did more than most Allstars that postseason but somehow it's a big deal that technically he wasn't an allstar that year?


Or maybe, even accounting for defense, Jokic just has more impact?

[tontoz]

What does the 3 month break have to do with anything? Do you subscribe to the theory that the pass bubble ring doesn't count (as of everyone else didn't have the same time off)? That's irrelevant. The important part is that Murray was scoring about as well as any second option ever has. In fact it could be argued that in that postseason he was the first option. If he is averaging 26.5 points in the playoffs how is it important that he technically was not an allstar?


Do you think AD would have had that playoff run without a 3 month break in the middle of the season? If was a huge gift to players with durability/conditioning issues.

I don't believe in asterisk rings but the 3 month break, then playing in the bubble with no crowds, was an anomaly. And they did make the WCF that year. I need more than one playoff run in a bubble year to put him on the same level as other All-Stars, not to mention All-NBA players.

For the record Jokic is averaging 26.4 ppg in the playoffs for his career.

[j3lademaster]

If Embiid isn't a great defender then it's hard to say which center is. In order to be a great defensive center a guy had to protect the rim. The list of guys that do that better than Embiid is extremely short and the way that they are all dealt with is to throw a shooter out there that he has to either chase outside and leave the paint open or surrender threes.Rim protection isn't what makes a great defender anymore, it's the ability to defend in space and switch everything. But like I said, maybe we have different arbitrary definitions, and I don't want to get hung up on this as it wasn't the point of my post. We'll say Embiid is great, sure.

My point is Embiid in the west, especially against teams like 22 Warriors, will get hunted on pnr's on the fact that he's a center alone, and it's bonus points that he's also his team's top offensive contributor. The gap between Embiid and Jokic as defenders isn't going to matter as much as people think. As much as we make fun of Gobert, I think most will agree Utah Gobert was the best defensive center in the league, even better than Embiid, and look what happened to him. Embiid will look even worse because Gobert can afford to focus all of his energy on defense. Embiid can't.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Do you think AD would have had that playoff run without a 3 month break in the middle of the season? If was a huge gift to players with durability/conditioning issues.

I don't believe in asterisk rings but the 3 month break, then playing in the bubble with no crowds, was an anomaly. And they did make the WCF that year. I need more than one playoff run in a bubble year to put him on the same level as other All-Stars, not to mention All-NBA players.

For the record Jokic is averaging 26.4 ppg in the playoffs for his career.

Predicting injuries or the lack thereof is impossible. AD is injury prone (his health and James age are why I never viewed Lakers as a contender) but that's something that may have been less likely 3 years ago. And Murray isn't injury prone like Davis. He missed a season and a half when he tore his ACL. That's more than most would but still only one injury. AD has a much longer injury history with only two of his 11 seasons playing over 70 games.

[j3lademaster]

Do you think AD would have had that playoff run without a 3 month break in the middle of the season? If was a huge gift to players with durability/conditioning issues.

I don't believe in asterisk rings but the 3 month break, then playing in the bubble with no crowds, was an anomaly. And they did make the WCF that year. I need more than one playoff run in a bubble year to put him on the same level as other All-Stars, not to mention All-NBA players.

For the record Jokic is averaging 26.4 ppg in the playoffs for his career.Lakers lost homecourt advantage.

[tontoz]

Lakers lost homecourt advantage.


That is a pretty small issue compared to a 3 month break for stars that are aging/injury prone.

[tontoz]

Predicting injuries or the lack thereof is impossible. AD is injury prone (his health and James age are why I never viewed Lakers as a contender) but that's something that may have been less likely 3 years ago. And Murray isn't injury prone like Davis. He missed a season and a half when he tore his ACL. That's more than most would but still only one injury. AD has a much longer injury history with only two of his 11 seasons playing over 70 games.


One thing i can predict is that after a full regular season guys are typically tired and playing through nagging injuries. That was less of a problem after a 3 month break.

I would put more weight on Murray's playoff run if it happened after playing a full season.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Rim protection isn't what makes a great defender anymore, it's the ability to defend in space and switch everything. But like I said, maybe we have different arbitrary definitions, and I don't want to get hung up on this as it wasn't the point of my post. We'll say Embiid is great, sure.

My point is Embiid in the west, especially against teams like 22 Warriors, will get hunted on pnr's on the fact that he's a center alone, and it's bonus points that he's also his team's top offensive contributor. The gap between Embiid and Jokic as defenders isn't going to matter as much as people think. As much as we make fun of Gobert, I think most will agree Utah Gobert was the best defensive center in the league, even better than Embiid, and look what happened to him. Embiid will look even worse because Gobert can afford to focus all of his energy on defense. Embiid can't.

Embiid's advantage is that he would foul out a regular center and that pick and roll guy that a team could use on him is going to be toast. Gobert doesn't have the game to take advantage of a mismatch so it's not a mismatch. With Embiid it's different. I can't say he leads a team past the Warriors specifically but that's got more to do with what Steph Curry does to everyone (not just rim protectors) along with the rest of the Warriors scoring ability. They're a dynasty after all, Embiid has possibly never been on a team that can win a championship ( Simmons was always flawed and Harden isn't quite the same guy he once was).

[Real Men Wear Green]

One thing i can predict is that after a full regular season guys are typically tired and playing through nagging injuries. That was less of a problem after a 3 month break.

I would put more weight on Murray's playoff run if it happened after playing a full season.

And you're sure that this affects Murray more than anyone else? Because I don't see how you could be sure of that. He has had the one big injury but otherwise hasn't been especially frail. In his first two seasons he only missed one game.

[tontoz]

And you're sure that this affects Murray more than anyone else? Because I don't see how you could be sure of that. He has had the one big injury but otherwise hasn't been especially frail. In his first two seasons he only missed one game.


Murray wasn't the only guy going off in the bubble. DMitch averaged 36 ppg with a 70% TS, against Murray.

Murray was 10th in playoff scoring during the bubble playoffs. Certainly that is very good but he wasn't the only guy going off.

Murray hasn't been very consistent. Has he had any other stretches comparable to the bubble playoffs? If not, then why?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Murray wasn't the only guy going off in the bubble. DMitch averaged 36 ppg with a 70% TS, against Murray.

Murray was 10th in playoff scoring during the bubble playoffs. Certainly that is very good but he wasn't the only guy going off.

Murray hasn't been very consistent. Has he had any other stretches comparable to the bubble playoffs? If not, then why?

Donovan Mitchell is a great player. I am not saying that Murray is the best player in the league just that the technicality that he hasn't made an allstar team yet isn't meaningful. In that postseason his impact was on par with an AllNBA first or second team player so we shouldn't be pretending that Jokic didn't have an excellent running mate that year.

Murray has only been healthy for two postseasons so there isn't a ton of history here, he's still a somewhat young player at 25. But he's had a number of 40+ point games and is a known scoring threat.

[j3lademaster]

Donovan Mitchell is a great player. I am not saying that Murray is the best player in the league just that the technicality that he hasn't made an allstar team yet isn't meaningful. In that postseason his impact was on par with an AllNBA first or second team player so we shouldn't be pretending that Jokic didn't have an excellent running mate that year.

Murray has only been healthy for two postseasons so there isn't a ton of history here, he's still a somewhat young player at 25. But he's had a number of 40+ point games and is a known scoring threat.I agree. Allstar is more of a title to describe a level of excellence. No one is saying Lebron won in 2016 with no allstar teammates, and no one is saying the 04 Hornets was a juggernaut behind allstar Jamaal Magloire either.

[tontoz]

Donovan Mitchell is a great player. I am not saying that Murray is the best player in the league just that the technicality that he hasn't made an allstar team yet isn't meaningful. In that postseason his impact was on par with an AllNBA first or second team player so we shouldn't be pretending that Jokic didn't have an excellent running mate that year.

Murray has only been healthy for two postseasons so there isn't a ton of history here, he's still a somewhat young player at 25. But he's had a number of 40+ point games and is a known scoring threat.



Murray had one postseason with hot shooting (45% from 3) but overall he hasn't been a consistent star level performer. To win a title teams typically need more than one guy who is an actual All-Star or All-NBA player, not just a guy who is almost an All-Star or just gets hot from 3.

This is year 7 for Murray. He's had plenty of time to prove hes a star and hasn't done it. Maybe he will do it in the future but he has to prove it by doing more than getting hot in the bubble.

[tontoz]

I agree. Allstar is more of a title to describe a level of excellence. No one is saying Lebron won in 2016 with no allstar teammates, and no one is saying the 04 Hornets was a juggernaut behind allstar Jamaal Magloire either.

That is a ridiculous comparison. Kyrie was a regular in the All-Star game but missed the first part of that season. Love was All-NBA 2nd team twice before going to the Cavs.

[j3lademaster]

That is a ridiculous comparison. Kyrie was a regular in the All-Star game but missed the first part of that season. Love was All-NBA 2nd team twice before going to the Cavs.Murray wasn't allstar level in 2020 reg season, but he undeniably played like an AS in the playoffs. What's the problem?

[AlternativeAcc.]

Murray had one postseason with hot shooting (45% from 3) but overall he hasn't been a consistent star level performer. To win a title teams typically need more than one guy who is an actual All-Star or All-NBA player, not just a guy who is almost an All-Star or just gets hot from 3.

This is year 7 for Murray. He's had plenty of time to prove hes a star and hasn't done it. Maybe he will do it in the future but he has to prove it by doing more than getting hot in the bubble.
Murray might not have the raw stats to be a perennial all-star, he still has one of the better complementary skillets in the game. One of the best outside shooters in the league and a good playmaker, and good enough defender. He's better than Middleton offensively but worse defensively, and has a history of rising to the occasion dating back to his amateur days playing for team Canada before college. He's clutch as shit and always has been. He and Middleton are on the same tier but I'd favor Murray in the playoffs.

If he's healthy, he's a very solid 2nd option who I'd take over several all star guys due to his elite shooting and complementary skill-set.

[tontoz]

Murray wasn't allstar level in 2020 reg season, but he undeniably played like an AS in the playoffs. What's the problem?


The problem is that he isn't an All-Star. That was the question in the OP. He's had several years to make it and hasn't done it. That's just a fact.

Obviously the more important issue is that he has been out the last two postseasons.

[tontoz]

Murray might not have the raw stats to be a perennial all-star, he still has one of the better complementary skillets in the game. One of the best outside shooters in the league and a good playmaker, and good enough defender. He's better than Middleton offensively but worse defensively, and has a history of rising to the occasion dating back to his amateur days playing for team Canada before college. He's clutch as shit and always has been. He and Middleton are on the same tier but I'd favor Murray in the playoffs.

If he's healthy, he's a very solid 2nd option who I'd take over several all star guys due to his elite shooting and complementary skill-set.


FYI Middleton's career from 3 is 39% compared to 37% from Murray. 37% from 3 isn't elite.

[AlternativeAcc.]

FYI Middleton's career from 3 is 39% compared to 37% from Murray. 37% from 3 isn't elite.

He averages 24/6/4 and 41% from 3 in the playoffs for his career.

Middleton averages 20 and 39% from 3 in the playoffs.

Some guys just rise to the occasion in big spots. Murray always has.

[ShawkFactory]

Murray might not have the raw stats to be a perennial all-star, he still has one of the better complementary skillets in the game. One of the best outside shooters in the league and a good playmaker, and good enough defender. He's better than Middleton offensively but worse defensively, and has a history of rising to the occasion dating back to his amateur days playing for team Canada before college. He's clutch as shit and always has been. He and Middleton are on the same tier but I'd favor Murray in the playoffs.

If he's healthy, he's a very solid 2nd option who I'd take over several all star guys due to his elite shooting and complementary skill-set.

That's a tough call. Middleton has proven in a finals series that he can play well in every area. Not that Murray can't but it's a go with what you know situation for me.

Murray certainly has the skillset but Middleton's size is a huge factor.

[tontoz]

He averages 24/6/4 and 41% from 3 in the playoffs for his career.

Middleton averages 20 and 39% from 3 in the playoffs.

Some guys just rise to the occasion in big spots. Murray always has.


Murray has only played in the playoffs two seasons. Small sample size theater.

His first year in the playoffs he shot 33.7% from 3. That is more representative of his shooting than his fluke bubble run.

[AlternativeAcc.]

That's a tough call. Middleton has proven in a finals series that he can play well in every area. Not that Murray can't but it's a go with what you know situation for me.

Murray certainly has the skillset but Middleton's size is a huge factor.

It is tough and I love Middleton. He's a beast.

But murray has shown he can do what Middleton does on better efficiency. As tontoz cited, he has an entire playoff run of 20 games shooting 45% from 3. I think that offsets the defensive advantage Middleton gives you. And remember, giannis and jrue were the stars defensively in that finals.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Murray has only played in the playoffs two seasons. Small sample size theater.

His first year in the playoffs he shot 33.7% from 3. That is more representative of his shooting than his fluke bubble run.

Yeah, an entire playoff run against elite perimeter defenses is a fluke and not the 1st one.

And even so, Murray's 21ppg on 53% in his 1st playoff run is about on par with Middletons career in the playoffs. (20ppg on 55%TS)

Middletons first two runs were around 15ppg on 48%Ts.

[tontoz]

Yeah, an entire playoff run against elite perimeter defenses is a fluke and not the 1st one.

And even so, Murray's 21ppg on 53% in his 1st playoff run is about on par with Middletons career in the playoffs. (20ppg on 55%TS)

Middletons first two runs were around 15ppg on 48%Ts.


Donovan Mitchell isn't an elite defender :oldlol: Murray had 2 50 pt games against Utah.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Donovan Mitchell isn't an elite defender :oldlol: Murray had 2 50 pt games against Utah.

Neither are Kawhi and George I guess. Shot 44% from 3 vs them.


Yeah murray isn't an elite outside shooter, anybody can shoot 45% from 3 in the playoffs over a 20 game sample. :oldlol:

Hes a rare combo of being able to create his shot at an elite level and catch and shoot. Very well-rounded shooter, and playmaker.

[ShawkFactory]

It is tough and I love Middleton. He's a beast.

But murray has shown he can do what Middleton does on better efficiency. As tontoz cited, he has an entire playoff run of 20 games shooting 45% from 3. I think that offsets the defensive advantage Middleton gives you. And remember, giannis and jrue were the stars defensively in that finals.

True and that freed up Middleton to take over at times offensively. I feel like his ability to get a good shot off regardless of situation, particularly midrange, makes him such an asset in the closing moments of big games.

[tontoz]

Neither are Kawhi and George I guess. Shot 44% from 3 vs them.


Yeah murray isn't an elite outside shooter, anybody can shoot 45% from 3 in the playoffs over a 20 game sample. :oldlol:

Hes a rare combo of being able to create his shot at an elite level and catch and shoot. Very well-rounded shooter, and playmaker.


Murray averaged 22.6 ppg with a 56% TS against the Clippers which is good but not exactly star stuff.

Has he ever played like a star outside of the bubble? If so i missed it.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Murray averaged 22.6 ppg with a 56% TS against the Clippers which is good but not exactly star stuff.

Has he ever played like a star outside of the bubble? If so i missed it.

You're asking if he's played well outside of the bubble? Yeah, he has.

He's been a 20ppg guy with great shooting and playmaking most of his career. That was his 2nd playoff run ever at age 23.

Its a better playoff performance than most 2nd options ever have, let alone their 2nd run at age 23. His 1st run is better than most 1st options in their 1st runs. (21ppg on 53% TS at age 22 isn't bad)

And it's not about stats. He's high IQ, a tough shot maker, has a history of rising to the occasion, and has a complementary skill set and a great attitude.

I'm sorry that offends you. I don't really care about the all star argument. He's been hurt the last 2 years and coming off a torn ACL. Jokic hasn't had enough help up until this point.

I just don't think people should be sleeping on murray regardless if he's voted as an all star.

[tontoz]

You're asking if he's played well outside of the bubble? Yeah, he has.

He's been a 20ppg guy with great shooting and playmaking most of his career. That was his 2nd playoff run ever at age 23.

Its a better playoff performance than most 2nd options ever have, let alone their 2nd run at age 23. His 1st run is better than most 1st options in their 1st runs. (21ppg on 53% TS at age 22 isn't bad)

And it's not about stats. He's high IQ, a tough shot maker, has a history of rising to the occasion, and has a complementary skill set and a great attitude.

I'm sorry that offends you.


So do you think he should be an All-Star this year? If so whose place should he take?

Your definition of "great shooting" must be different from mine.

[AlternativeAcc.]

So do you think he should be an All-Star this year? If so whose place should he take?

Your definition of "great shooting" must be different from mine.

Is Devin Booker a great shooter? It's kinda what he's known for. His career % is lower than Murray's. Both are 87% from the line.

Do I think Murray should be an all star? Idk, he's coming off an ACL injury and started the season slow. I'd take him as my 2nd option over several guys due to his complementary skill-set, tough shot making, and clutchness though. Easily over dudes like Haliburton or Randle.

[tontoz]

Is Devin Booker a great shooter? It's kinda what he's known for. His career % is lower than Murray's. Both are 87% from the line.

Do I think Murray should be an all star? Idk, he's coming off an ACL injury and started the season slow. I'd take him as my 2nd option over several guys due to his complementary skill-set, tough shot making, and clutchness though. Easily over dudes like Haliburton or Randle.


Booker is a good midrange shooter. Pretty weak from 3 at 35.6% for his career. His career TS of 57.2% is still 1.4% higher than Murray.

Neither guy has high efficiency.

Murray needs to do something noteworthy outside of the bubble before i get impressed. The bubble is a huge outlier relative to the rest of his career.

[Axe]

I agree. Allstar is more of a title to describe a level of excellence. No one is saying Lebron won in 2016 with no allstar teammates, and no one is saying the 04 Hornets was a juggernaut behind allstar Jamaal Magloire either.
Speaking of which, i heard that reaves should have made the all-star. As well as westbrook this year. :lebronamazed:

[DMAVS41]

After reading a bit in this thread, I think Murray is a little better than he's getting credit for when he's right / healthy.

The Jokic stuff reminds me a ton of how Dirk was viewed most of his career. I'd rather have Murray than Terry, but the supporting casts are similar enough in that they are quality and very close to being championship level, but not quite at the same level as the truly best teams.

And even if Jokic plays great, like he did in the playoffs last year, and loses...it's going to be because he's actually not at the level of the other guys. When in reality, his teams are good, but not great...and it is really hard to win in the playoffs without great help.

We can debate if Murray is all-star level...people used to say the same thing about Josh Howard and or Terry...but it is all meaningless if there are other great players out there with better teams. This year, if healthy, they have a team as good as or better than any team in the West other than the Suns in my opinion...so this year Jokic might deserve some criticism if they don't make the WCF or something.

I don't know...seen it all before. He's an all-time great and he makes his teammates better...I'll worry when he has a loaded team with another all-nba player and loses consistently. Until then...nothing really to say.

[StrongLurk]

Ultimately, the point here is that Jokic is easily the lead dog on this team and doesn't have what I consider an "elite" second option in the current NBA.

I understand the Warriors last year were similar in this context, but they have incredible chemistry and unique talents on their team that are rare even in today's NBA.

Fortunately for Jokic, we don't have any mega superteams running the NBA right now. The field is pretty damn open as long as teams stay healthy.

[DMAVS41]

Ultimately, the point here is that Jokic is easily the lead dog on this team and doesn't have what I consider an "elite" second option in the current NBA.

I understand the Warriors last year were similar in this context, but they have incredible chemistry and unique talents on their team that are rare even in today's NBA.

Fortunately for Jokic, we don't have any mega superteams running the NBA right now. The field is pretty damn open as long as teams stay healthy.

I agree with this mostly.

However, the Suns, if healthy with KD, definitely are a superteam and the Nuggets would rightfully be clear dogs in my opinion in that series. However, against the rest of the West...I don't see a team that should be favored over the Nuggets unless there are injuries.

[BigShotBob]

I agree with this mostly.

However, the Suns, if healthy with KD, definitely are a superteam and the Nuggets would rightfully be clear dogs in my opinion in that series. However, against the rest of the West...I don't see a team that should be favored over the Nuggets unless there are injuries.

Suns are not a super team they were washed and on their way down with their window closing

[ShawkFactory]

Suns are not a super team they were washed and on their way down with their window closing

Even IF this were true, they also just added one of the best players in the world..

[StrongLurk]

I agree with this mostly.

However, the Suns, if healthy with KD, definitely are a superteam and the Nuggets would rightfully be clear dogs in my opinion in that series. However, against the rest of the West...I don't see a team that should be favored over the Nuggets unless there are injuries.

I don't consider the Suns a superteam. They are pretty standard for an elite, real championship contender in my opinion. Also they literally have no chemistry and just lost a ton of their depth. Durant turning the Suns into champions within a few months would be very impressive.

[BigShotBob]

Even IF this were true, they also just added one of the best players in the world..

KD makes them favorites but they're not a superteam. Only reason people want to call them one is because now teams can't load up on Booker and Paul like they were used to doing since they realized that no one else was a serious scoring threat. Now that people know they can't do that anymore suddenly they want to label them one and call it unfair.

Finally CP3 isn't forced to be a secondary scorer and neither is Ayton. That's not their natural roles. They're one of the only teams now where players can play their traditional roles in harmony

[DMAVS41]

I don't care to argue the semantics of what is or isn't a superteam. I think it is quite clear that the Suns would be favored over the Nuggets in a series. That is the point...